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TOV Forums > NSX > > Re: 2020 NSX Type-R

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RolledaNsx
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Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-17-2018 15:38
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lexusgs wrote:
silverf16 wrote:
Just reading about how 991.2 GT3 are commanding a 20k markup across the country and those cars don't sit in the dealership for more than 1 - 2 weeks. Some dealers are commanding 30-40k markup and they take longer to move but eventually they sell.

GT3, with a "measly" 500 hp are selling for 180k between markup and options. They don't have outright speed, but they are hot commodity. Yes, the model and name plate has cache but above that, this car is universally praised for its organic driving experience that engages all the drivers senses to create a vastly superior driving experience. It doesn't have 700hp nor does it need to. This is the sports car formula that many enthusiasts WANT.

On the other hand, Gen 2 NSX is green sports car that Honda and bureaucrats say we NEED. Sports cars is a want, not a need.

Gen 1 NSX with its lightweight NA peaky power plant isn't too different than the GT3s formula, albeit GT3 is more extreme akin to a type s or s zero (jdm) variant. It is no wonder that many NSX reviews that compare Gen 1 to Gen 2 NSXs prefer the old NSX, despite having 1/2 the Hp.

So you shouldn't wonder why Gen 2 NSX isn't selling well. They got the formula right to show off its corporate green and trick technologies. But they got the Gen 2 formula wrong for the buyers.

Gen 1 NSX was a new comer in 1991 with no legacy in sports cars and lacking a snob nameplate. Yet sales were great because it was universally praised. We can't say that about Gen 2 NSX. That crown now goes to the GT3.

Want to return to glory? Fix the formula. Put all your heart and soul into it. Sweat the details. Make it beautiful. It doesn't have to be the fastest nor the most high tech. It just needs to be Honda's best sports car that will be universally loved by enthusiasta, not posers. For that, old buyers will return, new buyers will come, and the NSX legacy will live on.



Porsche stuck with the 911, improving it, and other sports cars and developing a legacy and it has paid off for them.

Unfortunately Honda is not going to do a NA 500hp 6 cylinder, they won't even do a 400hp NA engine. The GT3 has a very unique driving experience with its 500hp normally aspirated flat six and being light weight and people will pay for that and there are always 600hp-700hp Porsche 911's if buyers want those.

I kept saying a hybrid or definitely a electric was not the way to go for the NSX or any sports car but Ito said it had to be "green" while buyers were not asking for it. What happened was they found out a J series with a hybrid does not work out well, is slow and compromised, and they had to then make a big expensive change because they went cheap first and thought the hybrid would work its magic with a mediocre engine when all it did was slow it down and add a bunch of weight. Thank god they at least put a good V6 in it that can overcome much of the hybrid components weight.

I think they got the styling right though, the NSX is beautiful especially when you see it in person, I think it looks better then a 488, R8, or McLaren. The performance is mostly there but is more complicated then it needed to be with little if any benefit but they seem to have gotten the chassis right and many other things they just need more version, a lower price, update the interior, etc.

All they needed to do was a high revving 8 or 10 cylinder or twin turbo versions of those engines with 600+hp, about 20 or 30K less expensive with more unique interior and it would have been pretty perfect, they did not need to make it so complicated and heavy although there may be some potential with the hybrid if they give it more power, more aggressive tuning, find other ways to lower weight.



The GT3 sales are crazy now because it is the last NA Engine/MT Porsche plans to make.Next GT3 is Turbo/DCT.

silverf16
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Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-17-2018 17:29
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The V10 engine may not fit but if you lop off 2 cylinders and use a 180 degree crankshaft, we would have a glorious sounding 4.0 liter V8 screamer. I gatheted the family of engine was going to be available in 10, 8, and 6 cylinder variants. All of them naturally aspirated screamers spinning up to 8.5 or 9k rpms.

Yank out the hybrid, drop in a screaming V8, you might get Porsche and Ferrari owners to visit Acura dealers again, after a 27 year absence. These NA screamers are so rare these days, I'm sure it would wake up the market and they would sell more the 5 units last month.

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-17-2018 17:36
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I wonder if the new V6 is related.......
nsx_s2k
Profile for nsx_s2k
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-17-2018 23:38
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SilverF16,

Completely agree with your points regarding the reasons for lack of appeal of the new NSX. The hybrid is a boat anchor and is meant to appeal to the greenies (many of which would never buy an exotic supercar) as well as the politicians. Great, now they showed they can create a hybrid sports car now make a de-hybridized version so that consumers would buy it.

Rolled tends to be spot on and the idea of removing the TMU & surprisingly heavy associated components would make me pause and revisit the vehicle. My guess is that if they do indeed strip away some of that hybrid silliness it might spare the vehicle from an early death.

Unfortunately if they don't plan on releasing anything revised until 2020, I doubt it will be soon enough to revive sales for a number of people will sit on the sidelines and wait.

qingcong
Profile for qingcong
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-18-2018 11:27
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It took them forever to get this NSX out, so unless things are different, I'd expect the same indecisiveness on updates and variants.
JMU R1
Profile for JMU R1
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-18-2018 12:22
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RolledaNsx wrote:
The GT3 sales are crazy now because it is the last NA Engine/MT Porsche plans to make.Next GT3 is Turbo/DCT.

I'll believe it when I see it. The Porsche GT car chief (Andreas Preuninger) himself said that they intend to stay naturally-aspirated for the GT3 for the foreseeable future.

The 991.2 GT3 is selling like hotcakes because it is exactly what that customer wants and there's really nowhere else to get that sort of driving experience these days. That, and the fact that the limited numbers have created hype that is drawing in speculators and buyers that are attracted to the fact that they can almost drive the car for free due to the high resale value.

RolledaNsx
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Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-18-2018 15:13
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NA engine days are numbered even for Sports Cars unless it is Hybrid.

Ferrari will only keep a NA V12 in top model but will have to make it Hybrid to be able to sell it in most countries.

superchg2
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Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-18-2018 16:22
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RolledaNsx wrote:
NA engine days are numbered even for Sports Cars unless it is Hybrid.

Ferrari will only keep a NA V12 in top model but will have to make it Hybrid to be able to sell it in most countries.


So has Honda resolved the cold weather gas in oil issue with the 1.5T?
l would stay away from it until they get the problems dealt with and fixed.


silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 00:47
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RolledaNsx wrote:
NA engine days are numbered even for Sports Cars unless it is Hybrid.


Next Gen mid-engine base trim Corvette will still have NA engine. So does Miata. GT3 wiil keep NA but may add hybrid for next generation.

I don't mind Hybrid if the weight can be kept under control. There is a market of buyer that just wants a fun to drive uncomplicated NA lightweight sports car. In several segments:

1. Entry level - Miata, Yota 86/BRZ
2. Mid tier - S2000, base Boxster/Cayman (981.1), 370Z. all of which are gone except Z so there is an opportunity here.
3. Mid-upper Tier - Corvette, Boxster Spyder/Cayman GT4, Gen 1 NSX

For these group, ultimate hp isn't the goal because it just isn't as fun on the streets. Honda is now absent in levels 2 and 3 above for NA sports cars. We don't need complicate hardware. Just a lightweight, engaging driving experience, wrapped in an appealing bodywork.

BTW, sports cars don't need to be forced to wear a corporate front fascia because a grill pattern on an SUV typically screws up the look on a low slung sports car. Do not put a diamond pentagon grill on the upcoming reface NSX. Front grills on Porsche/Ferrari/Lambo/Ford GT are all fine whereas Audi/Lexus are just plain offensive and obtuse. Acura grills are leaning towards the latter.

Its not just about saving the manuals, we need to save the NA engines on sports cars.. Even if Honda choose not to make them anymore.




RolledaNsx
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Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 01:54
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silverf16 wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
NA engine days are numbered even for Sports Cars unless it is Hybrid.


Next Gen mid-engine base trim Corvette will still have NA engine. So does Miata. GT3 wiil keep NA but may add hybrid for next generation.

I don't mind Hybrid if the weight can be kept under control. There is a market of buyer that just wants a fun to drive uncomplicated NA lightweight sports car. In several segments:

1. Entry level - Miata, Yota 86/BRZ
2. Mid tier - S2000, base Boxster/Cayman (981.1), 370Z. all of which are gone except Z so there is an opportunity here.
3. Mid-upper Tier - Corvette, Boxster Spyder/Cayman GT4, Gen 1 NSX

For these group, ultimate hp isn't the goal because it just isn't as fun on the streets. Honda is now absent in levels 2 and 3 above for NA sports cars. We don't need complicate hardware. Just a lightweight, engaging driving experience, wrapped in an appealing bodywork.

BTW, sports cars don't need to be forced to wear a corporate front fascia because a grill pattern on an SUV typically screws up the look on a low slung sports car. Do not put a diamond pentagon grill on the upcoming reface NSX. Front grills on Porsche/Ferrari/Lambo/Ford GT are all fine whereas Audi/Lexus are just plain offensive and obtuse. Acura grills are leaning towards the latter.

Its not just about saving the manuals, we need to save the NA engines on sports cars.. Even if Honda choose not to make them anymore.






The Corvettes only market is the USA and the USA will be the only country that will not have zero carbon auto laws.So it is designed like full-size trucks.....100% for the USA customers.

Miata's 2.0L NA engine is so under-powered....who cares.

All rumors from Germany...state next Porsche GT3 loses NA Engine and MT.Porsche isn't ready to go hybrid with the 911 yet(too many headaches in a rear engine platform.....they have enough fire worries without a lithium battery)

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 05:58
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silverf16 wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
NA engine days are numbered even for Sports Cars unless it is Hybrid.


Next Gen mid-engine base trim Corvette will still have NA engine. So does Miata. GT3 wiil keep NA but may add hybrid for next generation.

I don't mind Hybrid if the weight can be kept under control. There is a market of buyer that just wants a fun to drive uncomplicated NA lightweight sports car. In several segments:

1. Entry level - Miata, Yota 86/BRZ
2. Mid tier - S2000, base Boxster/Cayman (981.1), 370Z. all of which are gone except Z so there is an opportunity here.
3. Mid-upper Tier - Corvette, Boxster Spyder/Cayman GT4, Gen 1 NSX

For these group, ultimate hp isn't the goal because it just isn't as fun on the streets. Honda is now absent in levels 2 and 3 above for NA sports cars. We don't need complicate hardware. Just a lightweight, engaging driving experience, wrapped in an appealing bodywork.

BTW, sports cars don't need to be forced to wear a corporate front fascia because a grill pattern on an SUV typically screws up the look on a low slung sports car. Do not put a diamond pentagon grill on the upcoming reface NSX. Front grills on Porsche/Ferrari/Lambo/Ford GT are all fine whereas Audi/Lexus are just plain offensive and obtuse. Acura grills are leaning towards the latter.

Its not just about saving the manuals, we need to save the NA engines on sports cars.. Even if Honda choose not to make them anymore.






There is a persistent rumour that the next 86 goes hybrid.

There may be an opportunity for a tiny player like Lotus to stay 'pure' (though I am dubious about turbo engines, even Volvo ones, albeit their eponymous 'relations' across the street have massive experience of turbo Diesels) but that's probably about it.

superchg2
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Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 08:02
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qingcong wrote:
It took them forever to get this NSX out, so unless things are different, I'd expect the same indecisiveness on updates and variants.

I wish that they would focus the engineering improvements into the Honda's that people actually drive.
Never seen a new NSX on the street.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 16:39
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RolledaNsx wrote:
silverf16 wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
NA engine days are numbered even for Sports Cars unless it is Hybrid.


Next Gen mid-engine base trim Corvette will still have NA engine. So does Miata. GT3 wiil keep NA but may add hybrid for next generation.

I don't mind Hybrid if the weight can be kept under control. There is a market of buyer that just wants a fun to drive uncomplicated NA lightweight sports car. In several segments:

1. Entry level - Miata, Yota 86/BRZ
2. Mid tier - S2000, base Boxster/Cayman (981.1), 370Z. all of which are gone except Z so there is an opportunity here.
3. Mid-upper Tier - Corvette, Boxster Spyder/Cayman GT4, Gen 1 NSX

For these group, ultimate hp isn't the goal because it just isn't as fun on the streets. Honda is now absent in levels 2 and 3 above for NA sports cars. We don't need complicate hardware. Just a lightweight, engaging driving experience, wrapped in an appealing bodywork.

BTW, sports cars don't need to be forced to wear a corporate front fascia because a grill pattern on an SUV typically screws up the look on a low slung sports car. Do not put a diamond pentagon grill on the upcoming reface NSX. Front grills on Porsche/Ferrari/Lambo/Ford GT are all fine whereas Audi/Lexus are just plain offensive and obtuse. Acura grills are leaning towards the latter.

Its not just about saving the manuals, we need to save the NA engines on sports cars.. Even if Honda choose not to make them anymore.






The Corvettes only market is the USA and the USA will be the only country that will not have zero carbon auto laws.So it is designed like full-size trucks.....100% for the USA customers.

Miata's 2.0L NA engine is so under-powered....who cares.

All rumors from Germany...state next Porsche GT3 loses NA Engine and MT.Porsche isn't ready to go hybrid with the 911 yet(too many headaches in a rear engine platform.....they have enough fire worries without a lithium battery)



Ford Mustangs have NA 8 cylinders and sell in Europe, same with Camaro's, same with Corvettes. Lamborghini's still use NA 10 and 12 cylinders along with the R8, there are a few smaller makers that use NA engines in Europe. A 911 GT3 with a turbo makes no sense as the main appeal of it is the screaming NA engine, it sells in such few numbers I doubt any silly fines it gets would hurt Porsche and buyers would likely pay the extra for it.

RolledaNsx
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Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 19:25
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The 911R will most likely keep a NA Engine but it would be Hybrid.

All NA V12 models are so limited sales that they get a pass at the moment from the EU but after 2020 or 2025 they will not(must go Hybrid).

nightflow
Profile for nightflow
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 22:45
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I think this is closer to what enthusiasts have been asking for. Here's what people are saying about Project Zerv. Mid-engine 7DCT C8 Corvette starting at around 70k. LT1, 4.6TT, 5.4TT with the LT1 adopting DOHC along the way. I think the taillights, steering wheel, exhaust finishers will be squircles (square circles) to match the theme all around the vehicle instead of the artist's rendering. Exciting times.

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2018/01/12/mid-engine-corvette-coming




silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 23:32
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As long as there are IC engines burning carbon based fuel, there will always be carbon emission regardless if it is Naturally Aspirated or Turbo. It's simple chemistry. Burn more fuel (C8H18) = Emit more carbon (CO2).

We know why Turbos are here and I get that Honda is going away from NA engines for their sports oriented vehicles but I would not criticize Miata, Corvettes, 911 GT3, or any other makes because they choose to keep their engines pure. They sell Corvette and Miata over in Europe and they are all NA engines.

Who cares about Miata? Miata owners do! They are a devoted group who pride themselves on their sports car. They don't need outrageous hp to have fun. Just ask the owners of the 1 millions units that have been sold around the world.

NA engines is not being phased out anymore than Turbo engines are. Turbo engines is not a mandate, it is an option that manufacturers elect in order to get more power without increasing displacement.

If the NSX was to strip the turbos, it would generate less CO2 than with the turbos. I would rather buy a naturally aspirated 3.5L NSX generating 400 Hp than a 573 Hp turbo hybrid powertrain. The former unit would be 500 lbs lighter because it wouldn't need 10 heat exchangers and there would simply be less shit to break, more engaging to drive, and easier and cheaper to upkeep.

Turbo actually generate more emission in real world conditions.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-paris-engines-exclusive-idUSKBN12E11K

NA screaming engines was Honda's hallmark and one of the core reasons how Honda built raving fans. Now they are joining the me-too movement. Yea, I know we got tightening emissions but I expected more ingenuity out of Honda. While everyone is returning to 1970s by going back to Turbos, I expect a company that developed CVCC & VTEC to develop technology to make NA engines even more efficient, cleaner, and more power. Slapping turbos just give you more power. Along with more power comes more carbon emissions.

Turbo powerplant is not a mandate. NA engines are not going away soon. Well perhaps on Honda sports car engines.

Don't like that answer? 781 GT4 will be introduced later this year thumbing their noses at some of us with their screaming NA engines. According to this interview with Andreas, it looks like next Gen GT3s will likely keep NA engines.

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/02/porsche-911-gt3-turbo-hybrid-andreas-preuninger/

Over at Honda we have 2 sport oriented vehicles. On one corner, we have the CTR at $35K flying out the door with dealer markup and the other corner, we have the NSX at $157K collecting dust in showrooms until $30k bail outs push them out the door. What lies in between is large hole which can be filled with a spectrum of options including a naturally aspirated screamer with modest hp in the neighborhood of 400. That's where Honda customer base is. A return to simplicity, purity, fun to drive on a car that emits less carbon than the current NSX. And yes, you can throw a mild hybrid on the drive axle if you must keep it green. It will also help with low end torque. Just be sure to send it thru the Jenny Craig program before you release it for production.





RolledaNsx
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Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 00:37
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Silverf16.....you do understand that not all NA Engines are going away......just high rev and big cc na engines are going away except in halo limited models but in the future they will have to be hybrid.

911 GT3.....the same guy had interview with Autonews and stated they will have to go turbo with the next GT3 because it will need to produce more than 500 hp(tops for their NA H6) and at over 500hp a MT is the wrong trans for a track car(slow times and driver fault power-train damage).

Ask any engine engineer........design a turbo engine right from the start with no short-cuts and you can't beat it.The problem with turbo engines until now is they borrowed engines designed to be NA and all they did was add a turbo.Also they went cheap on everything.The industry hit is stride by the end of WW2(1945) with boosted engines but then lost their way until now with the tech.Only the marine diesel companies kept pushing the tech(they are now hitting 65% effiency).

silverf16
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Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 01:08
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Isn't the latest Camry 4 banger the most thermal efficient production gasoline engine at 41%
Nick GravesX
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Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 05:25
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Silverf16.....you do understand that not all NA Engines are going away......just high rev and big cc na engines are going away except in halo limited models but in the future they will have to be hybrid.

911 GT3.....the same guy had interview with Autonews and stated they will have to go turbo with the next GT3 because it will need to produce more than 500 hp(tops for their NA H6) and at over 500hp a MT is the wrong trans for a track car(slow times and driver fault power-train damage).

Ask any engine engineer........design a turbo engine right from the start with no short-cuts and you can't beat it.The problem with turbo engines until now is they borrowed engines designed to be NA and all they did was add a turbo.Also they went cheap on everything.The industry hit is stride by the end of WW2(1945) with boosted engines but then lost their way until now with the tech.Only the marine diesel companies kept pushing the tech(they are now hitting 65% effiency).



I don't fancy a Wärtsilä cathedral engine in my car, though!

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 09:56
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Highest thermal efficiency of engines based on categories:

Gas Turbine, 61% - GE gas turbine for powerplants
2 stroke diesel, 50% - Wärtsilä cathedral for Marine
Mercedes F1, 50% - 1.6 liter Turbo with waste heat recovery.
Toyota Diesel, 44% - 1GD-FTV 2.8 liter
Toyota gasoline hybrid 41% - 2.0L Dynamic force.
Toyota gasoline (non hybrid), 40% - 2.0L Dynamic Force

There is also talk of Mazda trying targeting 56% with Skyactive 3 engines. Skyactive X is not turbo.

All the examples above does not apply to production sports cars like NSX. However, I have no doubt companies like Honda can develop NA engines that are efficient and sporty. High rpms and emission is not a problem that Honda cannot solve. The NSX revs to 7500. What is another 500-1000 rpms when a street car barely spends anytime up there except to thrill the driver every now and then.

Make it so Scotty.



RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 11:18
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silverf16 wrote:
Highest thermal efficiency of engines based on categories:

Gas Turbine, 61% - GE gas turbine for powerplants
2 stroke diesel, 50% - Wärtsilä cathedral for Marine
Mercedes F1, 50% - 1.6 liter Turbo with waste heat recovery.
Toyota Diesel, 44% - 1GD-FTV 2.8 liter
Toyota gasoline hybrid 41% - 2.0L Dynamic force.
Toyota gasoline (non hybrid), 40% - 2.0L Dynamic Force

There is also talk of Mazda trying targeting 56% with Skyactive 3 engines. Skyactive X is not turbo.

All the examples above does not apply to production sports cars like NSX. However, I have no doubt companies like Honda can develop NA engines that are efficient and sporty. High rpms and emission is not a problem that Honda cannot solve. The NSX revs to 7500. What is another 500-1000 rpms when a street car barely spends anytime up there except to thrill the driver every now and then.

Make it so Scotty.





Children!!!!!

Marine 2 stroke diesel ICE now tops about 51% but add HER to it then it goes up 8-15% on system used.In the future they think with HER they can get 40% more with total 90%.

MB plans to be 55% with their PU by 2021.All four manufacturers do not want to get rid of the MGU-H(F1 owners do) because they made more advance on the tech the past 4 years than the past 60 years.MGU-H is the future of the ICE in production cars to deal with the future crazy laws from GOV'T.

So do not be surprise there is a limited NSX version with a MGU-H in the Future.

By asking the question at the end= you do not know anything about engine design. Adding 500-1000 to engine that already revs to 7500 is a big deal, even more so with a boosted engine over na engine.

silverf16
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Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 14:03
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Adding 500-1000 to engine that already revs to 7500 is a big deal, even more so with a boosted engine over na engine.


I could have been more clear. That is my point, if a turbo engine can rev to 7500 and meet emission, a NA engine should have adequate emission overhead to rev at add at least another 500 revs to 8000. Porsche is still keeping with 9000rpm. This is the now. Honda ain't got it.

If we are going to continue with overly complex engines for NSX, Some of us will not be interested as it would drive up cost, failure modes, and at the end, it becomes more of a expensive showcase of technology to meet green movement rather than a moderate hp lightweight sports car to meet the desire for enthusiasts. That is why current NSX sells compared poorly compared to gen 1 and Honda continued direction down this path will take this program down a death spiral in sales.

At least we still have choices in the market and Mustang and Porsche isn't making excuses for buyers. Gobble them up and watche the price of these cars rise much like Gen 1 NSXs have.


notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 14:07
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RolledaNsx wrote:


All rumors from Germany...state next Porsche GT3 loses NA Engine and MT.Porsche isn't ready to go hybrid with the 911 yet(too many headaches in a rear engine platform.....they have enough fire worries without a lithium battery)



That would be a real shame. I just did another day at the Porsche driving experience in Carson, CA on Friday. Drove a Carrera S Sport Chrono with PDK this time. Great car. For a car not on race tires it gives up very little to the GT3RS I drove last year. The 3.0T engine has more torque too so for daily use it is certainly the better choice.

That said, you can feel the difference in terms of throttle response, especially at low speed, rapid throttle changes. It's a small difference, but in a car like the GT3 I think it really matters.

Talking with the instructors there, they noted that the 2.5T in the Cayman S is a similarly responsive motor (very good for a turbo, but not as good as the previous 6 in that respect). The Cayman GTS apparently runs a noticeably larger turbo and feels it in terms of response.

SC

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-21-2018 00:53
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It is funny we are having this turbo vs normally aspirated debate and European gov./politicians are forcing turbo's, electrics, and hybrids on everyone now because it was mostly turbo diesels that screwed up the air quality in their cities and the only reason they became so popular was because their stupid politicians taxed gasoline so much/high that somehow a turbo diesel in a small econo car or luxury sedan actually made sense and were bought in droves.
RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-21-2018 01:46
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911(992) rumors

Bad news first is the EU RDE(Real Driving Emissions test) that starts in Sept 2019(will kill new diesels and high performance NA engines unless full Hybrid not mild Hybrid).

Carerra H4(2.5) and H6(3.0)

Turbo and Turbo S(2.5 sec 0-60) 600 and 630hp DCT only

All models 48V?

8-DCT to replace 7-DCT

GT3... the Spy pics points to turbo(two huge exhaust openings) but also shown a mule with MT

Some base models will keep MT option

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-21-2018 12:37
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They should just drop the GT3, the name means nothing and it is not special anymore if it is also getting a turbo like everything else in the lineup.

Porsche has so much profit built into a 911, especially a GT3 that any extra silly taxes/fines it gets for not being compliant would likely be easily absorbed, even if they raised the price a couple grand buyers would happily pay it to get that screaming high revving flat six.

They really can't build just 1 low production version of a car with a NA engine while everything else in the lineup is turbo/hybrid/electric? Are car makers or politicians that stupid to think such low production cars that are rarely driven are doing anything to the environment/air quality especially when 18 wheelers/lories, work trucks, airliners, boats. etc are the real big polluters. It is ridiculous.

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-21-2018 22:07
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notyper wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:


All rumors from Germany...state next Porsche GT3 loses NA Engine and MT.Porsche isn't ready to go hybrid with the 911 yet(too many headaches in a rear engine platform.....they have enough fire worries without a lithium battery)





That would be a real shame. I just did another day at the Porsche driving experience in Carson, CA on Friday. Drove a Carrera S Sport Chrono with PDK this time. Great car. For a car not on race tires it gives up very little to the GT3RS I drove last year. The 3.0T engine has more torque too so for daily use it is certainly the better choice.

That said, you can feel the difference in terms of throttle response, especially at low speed, rapid throttle changes. It's a small difference, but in a car like the GT3 I think it really matters.

Talking with the instructors there, they noted that the 2.5T in the Cayman S is a similarly responsive motor (very good for a turbo, but not as good as the previous 6 in that respect). The Cayman GTS apparently runs a noticeably larger turbo and feels it in terms of response.

SC



My biz partner just ordered a Cayman GTS and it's scheduled to arrive in October. Hopefully he will let me drive it and share my experience with you all.

He specifically picked the 718 as opposed to 981 because of the 2.5T for its greater power potential. An ECU reflash and downpipe will easily bring the car close to 450hp. He was forced to get PDK though as the 6MT isn't able to handle even the stock power level lol.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-22-2018 01:52
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lexusgs wrote:
They should just drop the GT3, the name means nothing and it is not special anymore if it is also getting a turbo like everything else in the lineup.

Porsche has so much profit built into a 911, especially a GT3 that any extra silly taxes/fines it gets for not being compliant would likely be easily absorbed, even if they raised the price a couple grand buyers would happily pay it to get that screaming high revving flat six.

They really can't build just 1 low production version of a car with a NA engine while everything else in the lineup is turbo/hybrid/electric? Are car makers or politicians that stupid to think such low production cars that are rarely driven are doing anything to the environment/air quality especially when 18 wheelers/lories, work trucks, airliners, boats. etc are the real big polluters. It is ridiculous.



Except the aren't. Trucks maybe. But per person, airplanes put a fraction of the pollutants in the air vs a normally loaded car. Same with ships and trains which burn a lot of fuel but carry many more magnitudes worth of stuff doing it.

Also, the number of planes, trains and boats running at any time is a small fraction of the number of cars moving world wide.


lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-22-2018 12:10
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owequitit wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
They should just drop the GT3, the name means nothing and it is not special anymore if it is also getting a turbo like everything else in the lineup.

Porsche has so much profit built into a 911, especially a GT3 that any extra silly taxes/fines it gets for not being compliant would likely be easily absorbed, even if they raised the price a couple grand buyers would happily pay it to get that screaming high revving flat six.

They really can't build just 1 low production version of a car with a NA engine while everything else in the lineup is turbo/hybrid/electric? Are car makers or politicians that stupid to think such low production cars that are rarely driven are doing anything to the environment/air quality especially when 18 wheelers/lories, work trucks, airliners, boats. etc are the real big polluters. It is ridiculous.



Except the aren't. Trucks maybe. But per person, airplanes put a fraction of the pollutants in the air vs a normally loaded car. Same with ships and trains which burn a lot of fuel but carry many more magnitudes worth of stuff doing it.

Also, the number of planes, trains and boats running at any time is a small fraction of the number of cars moving world wide.



Planes/Aircraft, Trucks, and Boats are enormous polluters and are much less regulated then passenger cars.

I am sure anyone can tell by my posts I am the last person to get on the Al Gore/greenie bandwagon and be for more regulations and everyone forced to own hybrids, electrics or small engine little cars but even for me there is no denying how big of polluters and users of fuel aircraft, boats, and trucks are. I am mainly pointing out the hypocrisy and double standard of trying to regulate people's personal vehicles so much when little is done for the really big polluters like aircraft, trucks, and boats. Just a few of the largest boats can emit pollution of hundreds of thousands to millions of modern cars, especially when those large boats burn filthy sulfur rich bunker fuel at sea and in some cases at or near port depending on regulations of countries they are in.

Politicians can regulate our cars all they want, force us into electrics that will just switch the pollution source yet it is still not going to have the impact they think especially when roads are clogged with big trucks belching plumes of dirty smoke, aircraft and big boats and other sources still majorly contributing to air pollution.

That is why I said what I said about the GT3 or a NA NSX, it is so silly and pointless for politicians or gov to regulate a low volume sports car or luxury car so much when they contribute nothing when it comes to air pollution compared to the big polluters that get little regulation because there is too much money, influence, union's, etc involved.

I know most of these are more left leaning sites and are biased but there is truth to what they say and find too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_aviation
https://www.transportenvironment.org/what-we-do/shipping/air-pollution-ships
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/10/101005-planes-pollution-deaths-science-environment/
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/apr/09/shipping-pollution
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html

NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: 2020 NSX Type-R    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-22-2018 12:18
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^ Ships delivering hybrid cars. I like that...

 
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