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TOV Forums > Type R > > Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?

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garoto
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Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 13:07
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I see a ton of CTR owners installing a Mishimoto Catch Can
https://www.mishimoto.com/honda-civic-type-r-baffled-oil-catch-can-pcv-side-2017.html?fee=1&fep=11912&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-JzRvaGS2wIVFttkCh3cSAPTEAQYASABEgIWevD_BwE


I see what itís doing, but donít understand it well. Itís catching oil from getting into places itís not supposed to get?

1. Why is that happening, oil getting into places itís not supposed to get?
2. Of the catch van is as important as people are making it out to be, why in the world would Honda skimp on that?

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 13:38
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That explains it technically.

garoto
Profile for garoto
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 13:47
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DCR wrote:


That explains it technically.



Good share. So Honda is cheap, lazy, and doesnít want another maintenance item to the car. I can believe all of that, but on a Type R I feel like itís obvious the market for those cars donít care about another maintenance item.

Would there be warranty implications if I install it? Seems to be a good thing.

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 14:09
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There might be other ways of accomplishing that in the design of the OEM structure, so that is probably why they aren't hanging out in the open and "installed" with a maintenance plan on top of it. Church or someone engine technical may have to speak to that, because I can't.
sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 21:27
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What a load of crock. The only reason you would run such a system on a standard issue car is if you're taking it to the track (or running very high boost?). It's standard fare on race cars, but I reckon it's floss for most road cars.
Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-19-2018 22:44
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None of this was an issue for those of us in the US until PCV recirc systems became required by law. The Road Draft Tube as Studebaker called theirs simply dumped the vented gases and oil onto the road surface and everyone was happy.

The number one reason not to use a catch can is the contents can freeze during winter temps. I guess the second reason would be the pressure drop a can would represent for the PCV system. A third reason would be you have no choice but to empty the can at the proper intervals.

As for one manufacturer being lazy for not including a separator device in the system I reckon they're all lazy. The early PCV systems included small catch filters in the air cleaner assemblies you were expected to replace occasionally. Just like the carbon cannister filters which no one knew they were supposed to change.

We could discuss oil pressure accumulators next.

garoto
Profile for garoto
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 00:44
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Grace141 wrote:
None of this was an issue for those of us in the US until PCV recirc systems became required by law. The Road Draft Tube as Studebaker called theirs simply dumped the vented gases and oil onto the road surface and everyone was happy.

The number one reason not to use a catch can is the contents can freeze during winter temps. I guess the second reason would be the pressure drop a can would represent for the PCV system. A third reason would be you have no choice but to empty the can at the proper intervals.

As for one manufacturer being lazy for not including a separator device in the system I reckon they're all lazy. The early PCV systems included small catch filters in the air cleaner assemblies you were expected to replace occasionally. Just like the carbon cannister filters which no one knew they were supposed to change.

We could discuss oil pressure accumulators next.



Interesting. So it is a bunch of bullshit. Pressure drop in the PCV system sounds like a problem.

Shawn Church, your input would be golden.

Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 03:46
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Don't you get tired of hating on Honda? You don't even know what a catch can is, yet you're already blaming Honda. PCV was the first ever emissions device... it was on my 1972 AZ600. It routes oil vapors back into the combustion chamber instead of out into the environment - by law. The side effect is it can cause oil buildup on throttle bodies or valves. This is true for every single automotive manufacturer on the planet. Some owners install oil catch cans, if they're really concerned about it. The other 100 million car owners don't. But f*ck Honda, am I right?
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 05:15
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I would have thought it was 1.5T owners who were going crazy for them!


Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 08:08
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Nick GravesX wrote:
I would have thought it was 1.5T owners who were going crazy for them!



Maybe just the opposite? Honda's solution for not coking up the intake valves is to deposit all of the gunk in the motor oil in the sump? My guess is they're scrambling to solve a PCV error or something.

I really wouldn't mind discussing oil pressure accumulators though. My last Nissan developed the startup timing chain slap noise problem which I figured was due to the tensioner leaking down. I narrowed my options down to installing the very cool accumulator made by Moroso and never buying another Nissan. So far, so good with Option 2.

Anyway,

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-23900

I wish I didn't find the 350Z's I see on the road cool.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 08:34
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garoto wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
None of this was an issue for those of us in the US until PCV recirc systems became required by law. The Road Draft Tube as Studebaker called theirs simply dumped the vented gases and oil onto the road surface and everyone was happy.

The number one reason not to use a catch can is the contents can freeze during winter temps. I guess the second reason would be the pressure drop a can would represent for the PCV system. A third reason would be you have no choice but to empty the can at the proper intervals.

As for one manufacturer being lazy for not including a separator device in the system I reckon they're all lazy. The early PCV systems included small catch filters in the air cleaner assemblies you were expected to replace occasionally. Just like the carbon cannister filters which no one knew they were supposed to change.

We could discuss oil pressure accumulators next.



Interesting. So it is a bunch of bullshit. Pressure drop in the PCV system sounds like a problem.

Shawn Church, your input would be golden.


I think running a catch can is a good idea as long as you empty it periodically and don't let it freeze. It might eliminate most of the intake valve deposit problems in a DI engine. One of the Mini Cooper S guys on one of the forums I read said he was draining almost a quart of fluid and gunk from the catch can he installed with each oil change. It should be mostly gasoline though. You'll need to know where you will dispose of what you drain from the catch can.

It's a compromise though. My dad ran a pint of the STP oil treatment gunk in every car he owned starting in the '50s and he never had engine problems of any kind. In an insane scenario of what happens with motor oil, using STP in the CRV engines might actually solve the gasoline entrainment problem people are talking about.

I'm interested in Notyper's opinions too. I bet he's running a catch can on his Cadillac.

rogazilla
Profile for rogazilla
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 08:47
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I donít want oil vapor dump on the road either. As a biker tha little bit of oil film makes surface slippery after light rain sucks.

On the other hand be happy you have the pcv or egr on your car. You donít want to see the AOS system on the Porsche 996 and 997. It is a 150 dollar device that when it failed it hydrolocked the engine (P.O. of my car had this happened and had to replace the engine) it is an issue if you go to the track and see those 996 and 997 blow a puff of smoke when they make a turn. The oil will pool in the plenum and when you turn the oil will flow into one bank of the engine or the other. On the 996 and I believe early 997 replacing this is a 8 hour job with engine in car or drop the engine (4hours) and then another 30 minutes to replace.

Install catch can for track use makes a lot of sense as the AOS can be overwhelmed at the track in the Porscheís. The egr or pcv on my s2000 was never a problem when I tracked it. Could oil catch can helped? Probably but depend on your use itís not needed. In a catch can and all it does is catch the oil and you have to drain it also. I donít think it is road legal as you are defeating the emission device.

At the end of the day, you have to decide if a catch can is needed for your use of your car. I wouldnít worry about it unless you have a dedicated track car and you have excessive oil goes into intake (smoke out of tail pipe when on track)

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 11:01
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Nick GravesX wrote:
I would have thought it was 1.5T owners who were going crazy for them!



I was at the dealer having some warranty work done on our 2000 Accord yesterday.

I asked the service writer if they had any reported issues with gasoline in the oil of the 1.5T's, and he said he had not heard of any issues of that type here in Kansas City.

He did say they had to replace one turbo out of the many that they have sold.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 15:58
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rogazilla wrote:
I donít want oil vapor dump on the road either. As a biker tha little bit of oil film makes surface slippery after light rain sucks.

On the other hand be happy you have the pcv or egr on your car. You donít want to see the AOS system on the Porsche 996 and 997. It is a 150 dollar device that when it failed it hydrolocked the engine (P.O. of my car had this happened and had to replace the engine) it is an issue if you go to the track and see those 996 and 997 blow a puff of smoke when they make a turn. The oil will pool in the plenum and when you turn the oil will flow into one bank of the engine or the other. On the 996 and I believe early 997 replacing this is a 8 hour job with engine in car or drop the engine (4hours) and then another 30 minutes to replace.

Install catch can for track use makes a lot of sense as the AOS can be overwhelmed at the track in the Porscheís. The egr or pcv on my s2000 was never a problem when I tracked it. Could oil catch can helped? Probably but depend on your use itís not needed. In a catch can and all it does is catch the oil and you have to drain it also. I donít think it is road legal as you are defeating the emission device.

At the end of the day, you have to decide if a catch can is needed for your use of your car. I wouldnít worry about it unless you have a dedicated track car and you have excessive oil goes into intake (smoke out of tail pipe when on track)



Yeah, but flat configured engines have a host of fluid issues based on the fact that the crankcase is at or near the same plane as the cylinders. Oil can get into and stay in all sorts of fun places on flat-piston airplane engines too. But they just blow it out the breather tube. One of the most common ones on those and radials, and most turbines I have flown is that if they get over-serviced with oil, then you end up with a huge oil slick down the cowling and under the plane because they just blow the excess out until they are happy with the quantity. I imagine Porsches are similar, except they can't just blow it out. It has to go somewhere. Also, I am not sure if catch cans actually do defeat the emissions, because ultimately they still keep it from ending up on the ground, or unburned in the atmosphere.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 22:54
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superchg2 wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I would have thought it was 1.5T owners who were going crazy for them!



I was at the dealer having some warranty work done on our 2000 Accord yesterday.

I asked the service writer if they had any reported issues with gasoline in the oil of the 1.5T's, and he said he had not heard of any issues of that type here in Kansas City.

He did say they had to replace one turbo out of the many that they have sold.



Interesting - I was talking to some of the techs and the service manager at one of my local dealers and out of the blue they brought up the fact that they'd never had a single major issue with any of the turbocharged Honda engines yet (and this is one of the biggest dealers by volume in Georgia). Then they said the most troublesome engine they had were the V6s. They weren't saying it was unreliable but they did say that relatively speaking the V6s were the most problematic.

rogazilla
Profile for rogazilla
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-20-2018 23:25
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"... Also, I am not sure if catch cans actually do defeat the emissions, because ultimately they still keep it from ending up on the ground, or unburned in the atmosphere. "

I meant in a street legal sense. Could fail inspection depends on where you live.

Porsche is similar for M96 which I am more familiar with. The AOS is at the front of Bank 1 and the breather tube is at the rear of bank 2. the pipe in early cars run across on top of the engine and in 997 they run this tube around the engine. If the tube is cracked, you end up with oil going everywhere depending on how bad the leak. The loss of pressure will cause bank1 or bank 2 to run very rich depending on where the location of the leak and so on. I think the weak point is the silicon diaphragm that's used in the AOS design. This piece get overwhelmed and you have to replace it. If you over filled the oil, you run a risk of overwhelming the stock AOS. :(

As far as OP's question, this is not really a HONDA problem. I doubt you will have issue unless you track the car where you need to go to a catch can. If you are doing this to prevent built up on the valve because of DI, I am not familiar on how bad it would be on the Honda 2.0T or any of the Honda DI engine but I don't hear people complain about it as much as the early Audi's.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-21-2018 01:04
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JeffX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I would have thought it was 1.5T owners who were going crazy for them!



I was at the dealer having some warranty work done on our 2000 Accord yesterday.

I asked the service writer if they had any reported issues with gasoline in the oil of the 1.5T's, and he said he had not heard of any issues of that type here in Kansas City.

He did say they had to replace one turbo out of the many that they have sold.



Interesting - I was talking to some of the techs and the service manager at one of my local dealers and out of the blue they brought up the fact that they'd never had a single major issue with any of the turbocharged Honda engines yet (and this is one of the biggest dealers by volume in Georgia). Then they said the most troublesome engine they had were the V6s. They weren't saying it was unreliable but they did say that relatively speaking the V6s were the most problematic.



Was any of that related to the fact that it is the last Honda engine with a timing belt? Or was it more like VCM issues, etc. Ours have all been pretty much bulletproof. Didn't even have any issues on the 2009 VCM, which I thought was going to be an issue.


Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-21-2018 07:25
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owequitit wrote:
JeffX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I would have thought it was 1.5T owners who were going crazy for them!



I was at the dealer having some warranty work done on our 2000 Accord yesterday.

I asked the service writer if they had any reported issues with gasoline in the oil of the 1.5T's, and he said he had not heard of any issues of that type here in Kansas City.

He did say they had to replace one turbo out of the many that they have sold.



Interesting - I was talking to some of the techs and the service manager at one of my local dealers and out of the blue they brought up the fact that they'd never had a single major issue with any of the turbocharged Honda engines yet (and this is one of the biggest dealers by volume in Georgia). Then they said the most troublesome engine they had were the V6s. They weren't saying it was unreliable but they did say that relatively speaking the V6s were the most problematic.



Was any of that related to the fact that it is the last Honda engine with a timing belt? Or was it more like VCM issues, etc. Ours have all been pretty much bulletproof. Didn't even have any issues on the 2009 VCM, which I thought was going to be an issue.



It'd be the piston ring problem probably. I've never seen any of the 8G V6 Accords burning oil in traffic but I've noticed the exhaust tips on may of them have been coated with black gunk.

Karl O.
Profile for Karl O.
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-21-2018 09:55
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owequitit wrote:
JeffX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I would have thought it was 1.5T owners who were going crazy for them!



I was at the dealer having some warranty work done on our 2000 Accord yesterday.

I asked the service writer if they had any reported issues with gasoline in the oil of the 1.5T's, and he said he had not heard of any issues of that type here in Kansas City.

He did say they had to replace one turbo out of the many that they have sold.



Interesting - I was talking to some of the techs and the service manager at one of my local dealers and out of the blue they brought up the fact that they'd never had a single major issue with any of the turbocharged Honda engines yet (and this is one of the biggest dealers by volume in Georgia). Then they said the most troublesome engine they had were the V6s. They weren't saying it was unreliable but they did say that relatively speaking the V6s were the most problematic.



Was any of that related to the fact that it is the last Honda engine with a timing belt? Or was it more like VCM issues, etc. Ours have all been pretty much bulletproof. Didn't even have any issues on the 2009 VCM, which I thought was going to be an issue.


I had a buddy with a '14 Pilot, he finally disabled VCM and after that had no problems. I think it annoys a lot of people and isn't really anything the dealers can do about it.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-21-2018 11:39
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garoto wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
None of this was an issue for those of us in the US until PCV recirc systems became required by law. The Road Draft Tube as Studebaker called theirs simply dumped the vented gases and oil onto the road surface and everyone was happy.

The number one reason not to use a catch can is the contents can freeze during winter temps. I guess the second reason would be the pressure drop a can would represent for the PCV system. A third reason would be you have no choice but to empty the can at the proper intervals.

As for one manufacturer being lazy for not including a separator device in the system I reckon they're all lazy. The early PCV systems included small catch filters in the air cleaner assemblies you were expected to replace occasionally. Just like the carbon cannister filters which no one knew they were supposed to change.

We could discuss oil pressure accumulators next.



Interesting. So it is a bunch of bullshit. Pressure drop in the PCV system sounds like a problem.

Shawn Church, your input would be golden.



I haven't looked at the CTR PCV system yet, so I can't comment on whether it is necessary. I'd be really surprised if Honda hadn't done a proper job of baffling and flow control on a Type-R, but you never know.

That said, I didn't bother with a catch can on my S2000 until I went supercharged. At that point I put in a higher capacity (and higher pressure spring) PCV valve along with a catch can. This helped with oil consumption and eliminated the hard right turn puff of oil smoke that S2000s on race tires were famous for. The upgraded PCV valve is necessary simply because we were running boost and the factory PCV can fail. That shouldn't be a problem on a car that is already boosted.

I also run a catch can on my CTSV. They are notorious for pooling oil in the intake manifold underneath the intercooler over time. Oil is very low octane so it can cause detonation. It's not a huge amount of oil on the CTSV so you don't see smoke, but it can impact performance. Plus you don't want to coat the intercooler fins in oil either - hurts their effectiveness.

SC

Design
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Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-29-2018 02:29
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The initial results of the 1.5T/2.0T is that blowby/cc collection is minimal. That of course can change as the rings wear in. The biggest catch can issues we've seen in other communities is crankcase pressure variances leading to sealing issues (and the previously mentioned seizing of the PCV lines in colder climates). That and they tend to only trap larger droplets and not the vapors which account for a large portion of blowby.

That said, some owners are seeing very high fuel dilution (>5%) in some 1.5Ts - including those running Amsoil SS. We believe it's tied to excessive idling and/or low mileage in cold climates where the fuel vapors are unable to be burned off or siphoned out of the crankcase. We also believe this is the primary reason behind the uproar of select CRV owners in China.

My personal opinion is that automakers are beginning to crack the nut in balancing performance, emmissions and blowby in modern DI powertrains. Seems to be a combination of improved valve cover baffling, valve overlap/scavenging, air filtration, and hotter temps near the intake valves. VW is notably one of the worst offenders of carb deposits in the industry. Yet their revised 2.0T in the MKVII GTI is reported to run clean in stock form, up through 80K (for the few that have either cracked the IM or taken a boroscope inside for a peak).

Few references for review:
https://www.civicx.com/threads/1-5t-amsoil-ss-0w20-uoa-thread.9610/
https://www.civicx.com/threads/oil-analysis-database.21607/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-autos-honda/japans-honda-to-recall-350000-cars-in-china-over-engine-issue-idUSKBN1FW124

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-29-2018 04:45
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Design wrote:
The initial results of the 1.5T/2.0T is that blowby/cc collection is minimal. That of course can change as the rings wear in. The biggest catch can issues we've seen in other communities is crankcase pressure variances leading to sealing issues (and the previously mentioned seizing of the PCV lines in colder climates). That and they tend to only trap larger droplets and not the vapors which account for a large portion of blowby.

That said, some owners are seeing very high fuel dilution (>5%) in some 1.5Ts - including those running Amsoil SS. We believe it's tied to excessive idling and/or low mileage in cold climates where the fuel vapors are unable to be burned off or siphoned out of the crankcase. We also believe this is the primary reason behind the uproar of select CRV owners in China.

My personal opinion is that automakers are beginning to crack the nut in balancing performance, emmissions and blowby in modern DI powertrains. Seems to be a combination of improved valve cover baffling, valve overlap/scavenging, air filtration, and hotter temps near the intake valves. VW is notably one of the worst offenders of carb deposits in the industry. Yet their revised 2.0T in the MKVII GTI is reported to run clean in stock form, up through 80K (for the few that have either cracked the IM or taken a boroscope inside for a peak).

Few references for review:
https://www.civicx.com/threads/1-5t-amsoil-ss-0w20-uoa-thread.9610/
https://www.civicx.com/threads/oil-analysis-database.21607/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-autos-honda/japans-honda-to-recall-350000-cars-in-china-over-engine-issue-idUSKBN1FW124


Since the cold weather oil dilution by fuel affects other brand DI engines as well, and it does not seem to deteriorate the lubricity of the oil too much (1.5T), Honda may not react to this?

My KC area service writer was not even aware of it.

Design
Profile for Design
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-29-2018 13:29
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The only issues that a few owners report are a fuel smell in the oil and a slight increase in the level over time (2-3 mm). In all samples, viscosity seems to be holding up fine.

We definitely need more long term data. But all indications seem to support that Honda got it right in stock form. Adding boost, going low restriction air filter, and/or modding the fuel trims could warrant adding a catch can, IMHO.

Gfn8r
Profile for Gfn8r
Re: Mishimoto Catch Can - What For?    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-29-2018 19:27
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A colleague of mine has a CR-V with the fuel-on-oil problem, and IIRC, the cause was described to him as too high fuel pressure from one of the fuel pumps.

Does that make any sense at all?


 
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