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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...

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HondaForever
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Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 09:26
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"But the era of self-reliance is over. Today's Honda, a middling player on the global stage and increasingly squeezed by larger domestic rivals Toyota and Nissan, concedes it finally needs outside help to meet the challenges of the future.

Honda's new strategy calls for forging loose partnerships to cover its weak spots, which include a cross-section of next-generation technologies with which Honda suddenly finds itself needing aid, from green drivetrains and artificial intelligence to self-driving cars.

"We recognize the need for a fundamental transformation," CEO Takahiro Hachigo says of the carmaker's pivot. "We will not do everything on our own."

Honda's challenge will be protecting its independence and identity as it leans more on others."


http://www.autonews.com/article/20171111/INDUSTRY_REDESIGNED/171119982/honda-era-of-self-reliance-is-over?itx[idio]=7237643&ito=1038&itq=951c33e0-7404-4c21-9ad7-3c74191989e5

qingcong
Profile for qingcong
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 09:36
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Wait, what about Assimo and the NSX, aren't those forward looking things that should be helping them with AI and next gen powertrains?
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 09:50
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This is not particularly surprising, and it doesn't have to scream 'end of the road' for Honda's independence even if they don't own the base IP for some of the technology they are utilizing. It's not like Honda doesn't already do a lot of this- do you think that Honda 100% developed their engine by themselves?

At least in regards to working with suppliers, this is where Honda's (usually) good relationships can really help them. The supplier base has been consolidating over the last decade in the wake of the financiapocalypse, with bankruptcies and huge mergers meaning that some of the suppliers are now rivaling automakers in company size. What we have also seen is a shift in the automotive industry away from OEMs and towards suppliers for actually driving forward new technology and successfully commercializing concepts (48V systems, emissions control, BEVs and driver assist). Since Honda usually has a good reputation among suppliers, it's likely that suppliers will approach them for the opportunity on first dibs for new tech; this is something that Honda should capitalize on and work with their suppliers.

OEM joint ventures are kind of a mixed bag: technology partnerships usually start out with good intentions but don't really lead anywhere, whereas joint development of actual new product tends to go much smoother. This is to say that I'm not really sure where Honda's joint venture for fuel cells is really going to lead.


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 10:57
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Indeed - it's how 'upstart' businesses can fairly easily establish a new design.

It's not quite as simple as 'do you drive a Borg-Warner, a GKN or a Schaeffler?' as it's more mix n' match.

Not many people realise that the Jaguar Ingenium's valve tech was licensed form Schaeffler, who licensed it from FCA. Yes, it's Multi-air, just like the Giulia!

Electrification will really drive the process.

The brand/package is likely to be of increasing importance in the future.


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 13:03
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HondaForever wrote:
"But the era of self-reliance is over. Today's Honda, a middling player on the global stage and increasingly squeezed by larger domestic rivals Toyota and Nissan, concedes it finally needs outside help to meet the challenges of the future.

Honda's new strategy calls for forging loose partnerships to cover its weak spots, which include a cross-section of next-generation technologies with which Honda suddenly finds itself needing aid, from green drivetrains and artificial intelligence to self-driving cars.

"We recognize the need for a fundamental transformation," CEO Takahiro Hachigo says of the carmaker's pivot. "We will not do everything on our own."

Honda's challenge will be protecting its independence and identity as it leans more on others."


http://www.autonews.com/article/20171111/INDUSTRY_REDESIGNED/171119982/honda-era-of-self-reliance-is-over?itx[idio]=7237643&ito=1038&itq=951c33e0-7404-4c21-9ad7-3c74191989e5



HMC is at the foreground of Fuel Cells and has forged an alliance with GM, another leader. They are the only large automaker with a history of greeness... mostly because of their quest for efficiency. BEVs are pretty much off the shelf while FCEVs are not.

The new Accord iMMD has electric motors with NO rare earth materials.

Manufacturing wise AHM is golden.

A "middling" player is a biased comment. Tesla is a "middling" player... Honda sells millions of cars and cycles. Hardly a "middling" size.

AI, self driving, green drivetrains.... give me a break. The first two are bought off the shelf, just like the Bosch engine management.

Besides, isn't this writer aware that automotive self driving AI is DEAD? The big players have given up for the time being and Tesla is being smacked. Politicians and lawyers are now aware of this: no financially responsible automaker will touch this for many years.




Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 13:17
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I've assumed since the late '90s the only factor keeping Honda's automotive business independent has been the diversity of the complete Honda corporate structure. The motorcycle business is down but when combined with the automotive side plus the small engine business groups they are a strong company.
garoto
Profile for garoto
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 14:13
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They can't make a proper Infotainment System. Why would I trust them with self-driving technologies, lol?

They don't even understand the concept of bug fixes, the nature of bugs in software, and the natural release-update cycles as something that's a natural part of software. Instead, they pretend that once the car ships, it ships and its done even if its shit. Or at least, they pretend not to know in the eyes of the consumer.

Ford offers free OTA updates for their infotainment systems from the comfort of your home, or through a WiFi connection to your phone's personal hotspot.

Honda requires you to drive over to a dealership to get it done, not even a downloadable file in your own USB stick to do it from your garage. Can you imagine the amount of fuel burned over the past 10 years by having cars drive over to dealers for software updates, its effect on the roads, tires wasted, owners time wasted, money wasted, dealers' time wasted? Damage to cars that have likely happened as a result by putting it in other people's hands. All of that is GROSSLY inefficient.

So, no, Honda doesn't understand software and for that reason, they clearly don't understand the cars of the future.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 14:28
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garoto628 wrote:
They can't make a proper Infotainment System. Why would I trust them with self-driving technologies, lol?

They don't even understand the concept of bug fixes, the nature of bugs in software, and the natural release-update cycles as something that's a natural part of software. Instead, they pretend that once the car ships, it ships and its done even if its shit. Or at least, they pretend not to know in the eyes of the consumer.

Ford offers free OTA updates for their infotainment systems from the comfort of your home, or through a WiFi connection to your phone's personal hotspot.

Honda requires you to drive over to a dealership to get it done, not even a downloadable file in your own USB stick to do it from your garage. Can you imagine the amount of fuel burned over the past 10 years by having cars drive over to dealers for software updates, its effect on the roads, tires wasted, owners time wasted, money wasted, dealers' time wasted? Damage to cars that have likely happened as a result by putting it in other people's hands. All of that is GROSSLY inefficient.

So, no, Honda doesn't understand software and for that reason, they clearly don't understand the cars of the future.



Cars of the Future based on 'software'.... Like they used to say... gag me with a spoon!

AHM does NOT build the NAVI unit. It's outsourced to a company that build them for a number of manufacturers.

Besides, honestly, anyone who buys a car for the foofoo.. navigation, connectivity, auto driving, etc... should not be driving.

I can understand people who buy cars for their looks (*) and will always side with those who buy cars for their functionality. Even SUVs and big Pick Up trucks.

But anyone who buys a car based on how it connects to their Apple iPhone stuff is a fool. In my book.

BTW, when navigating a strange place, at night, I much prefer the very simple, North is Up, flat maps in my Navigation. I like maps. Those 3D fancy displays annoy the hell out of me. So, in reality, Honda's NAVI works fine if you know the end address... it's just that the fricking lawyers have got their fingers all over it and made it useless.

As far as updating firmware... I'm all for doing it at a dealer. Honda used to do it with the database DVD but they got rid of that. The fact is that upgrading it has the risk of creating a brick in your dash.

AND.. I DO NOT want my car updating itself. HELL NO! I'm already pissed off enough that my Galaxy S6 has a nasty habit of trying to update itself way too often. If something works, I DON'T TOUCH IT.

SO, IMHO, AHM is doing the updated precisely how they should be done.

(*) I admit I once owned a Scirocco and an Alfa Romeo Alfetta GT.




CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 14:40
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Infotainment is a different animal (and supplier)- from hardware related safety critical items that depend on real time monitoring.
garoto
Profile for garoto
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 15:46
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TonyEX wrote:
garoto628 wrote:
They can't make a proper Infotainment System. Why would I trust them with self-driving technologies, lol?

They don't even understand the concept of bug fixes, the nature of bugs in software, and the natural release-update cycles as something that's a natural part of software. Instead, they pretend that once the car ships, it ships and its done even if its shit. Or at least, they pretend not to know in the eyes of the consumer.

Ford offers free OTA updates for their infotainment systems from the comfort of your home, or through a WiFi connection to your phone's personal hotspot.

Honda requires you to drive over to a dealership to get it done, not even a downloadable file in your own USB stick to do it from your garage. Can you imagine the amount of fuel burned over the past 10 years by having cars drive over to dealers for software updates, its effect on the roads, tires wasted, owners time wasted, money wasted, dealers' time wasted? Damage to cars that have likely happened as a result by putting it in other people's hands. All of that is GROSSLY inefficient.

So, no, Honda doesn't understand software and for that reason, they clearly don't understand the cars of the future.



Cars of the Future based on 'software'.... Like they used to say... gag me with a spoon!

AHM does NOT build the NAVI unit. It's outsourced to a company that build them for a number of manufacturers.

Besides, honestly, anyone who buys a car for the foofoo.. navigation, connectivity, auto driving, etc... should not be driving.

I can understand people who buy cars for their looks (*) and will always side with those who buy cars for their functionality. Even SUVs and big Pick Up trucks.

But anyone who buys a car based on how it connects to their Apple iPhone stuff is a fool. In my book.

BTW, when navigating a strange place, at night, I much prefer the very simple, North is Up, flat maps in my Navigation. I like maps. Those 3D fancy displays annoy the hell out of me. So, in reality, Honda's NAVI works fine if you know the end address... it's just that the fricking lawyers have got their fingers all over it and made it useless.

As far as updating firmware... I'm all for doing it at a dealer. Honda used to do it with the database DVD but they got rid of that. The fact is that upgrading it has the risk of creating a brick in your dash.

AND.. I DO NOT want my car updating itself. HELL NO! I'm already pissed off enough that my Galaxy S6 has a nasty habit of trying to update itself way too often. If something works, I DON'T TOUCH IT.

SO, IMHO, AHM is doing the updated precisely how they should be done.

(*) I admit I once owned a Scirocco and an Alfa Romeo Alfetta GT.






Having a good infotainment system and liking to drive arenít mutually exclusive. You can like both, and with the money you pay, should have both.

Liking to drive and liking how a car looks also arenít mutually exclusive. You can have two cars that drive great or equally great, and choosing the good looking one over the ugly one isnít a bad decision all other things being equal.

Software wonít update itself. You go to the settings and do it yourself, like Fordís system, whenever you want. If you have an issue you do the update, if you donít you can choose not to.

If you understand software, your update process wonít brick you. If it does brick you, then you do go to the dealer at that point.

chhan02
Profile for chhan02
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 15:46
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I found Honda's latest infotainment system to be very nice. Still not perfect but 1000x better...and faster.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 17:59
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garoto628 wrote:


Having a good infotainment system and liking to drive arenít mutually exclusive. You can like both, and with the money you pay, should have both.
...
If you understand software, your update process wonít brick you. If it does brick you, then you do go to the dealer at that point.



(1) I separate my "infotainment" from my cars. True, the Acuras I've had came with ELS which was awesome... but I can't fit my "infotainment" into my car. Physically impossible.

(2) If you brick your infotainment unit, you may have issues driving to the dealer. They are putting HVAC controls into the Navi screen.

(3) BTW, it's called Firmware not software.

garoto
Profile for garoto
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 22:22
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TonyEX wrote
BTW, it's called Firmware not software.



Youíre joking right? Firmware is software, it just represents a category of software and how closely it relates to the actual operability of the hardware.

I do this for a living, we donít need to have this argument again. Weíve already had it years ago.

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2018 22:58
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Actually, the first order of self reliance that Honda needs let go of is....Design.
PoweredbyHondaX
Profile for PoweredbyHondaX
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2018 01:11
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silverf16 wrote:
Actually, the first order of self reliance that Honda needs let go of is....Design.

yeah honda should let telsa design its cars so we can have more Jelly beans on the road.

Or toyota so we can have more bird beaks with wide open beaks ready for the worms.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2018 09:21
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garoto628 wrote:
TonyEX wrote
BTW, it's called Firmware not software.



Youíre joking right? Firmware is software, it just represents a category of software and how closely it relates to the actual operability of the hardware.

I do this for a living, we donít need to have this argument again. Weíve already had it years ago.



Tony is right though. Firmware is not software. Maybe pedantic but if you're say, someone who works with microcontrollers, it's an important distinction.

garoto
Profile for garoto
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2018 09:34
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CarPhreakD wrote:
garoto628 wrote:
TonyEX wrote
BTW, it's called Firmware not software.



Youíre joking right? Firmware is software, it just represents a category of software and how closely it relates to the actual operability of the hardware.

I do this for a living, we donít need to have this argument again. Weíve already had it years ago.



Tony is right though. Firmware is not software. Maybe pedantic but if you're say, someone who works with microcontrollers, it's an important distinction.



The future of cars is software, not firmware.

The garmin navigation, software its an app bakes into the OS.
HondaLink, software.
CarPlay, software.
Android Auto, software.

Anything that youíre pressing with your finger and interacting with, software. Even if it ultimately is all bundled together and shipped as one.

Firmware IS software. The point is, the future of cars is software. Or is the future of cars firmware? Thatís just nuts.

PoweredbyHondaX
Profile for PoweredbyHondaX
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2018 21:36
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Not for nothing but if your saying Firmware is software then the future of cars is Firmware. because firmware is software.



see it now?

garoto
Profile for garoto
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2018 00:46
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PoweredbyHondaX wrote:
Not for nothing but if your saying Firmware is software then the future of cars is Firmware. because firmware is software.



see it now?



No. All firmware is software. But not all software is firmware. And everything that goes into a carís future isnít necessarily only firmware, it already isnít as I described earlier. Even if it was, thatís not how you describe it. Iíll let this thread ride, Iím not going further on this software vs firmware nonsense.

Waldo
Profile for Waldo
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2018 09:57
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This is quoted from a discussion on flashrouters.com.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FIRMWARE AND SOFTWARE?

Officially, there is no true compositional distinction between firmware and software. When discussed, firmware usually refers to fixed data as part of a hardware device, unlike software which is meant to be used for interaction, productivity and activity like word processing, video editing, listening to music, or video conferencing.

Wikipedia describes the history of the term firmware:

The term firmware was originally coined in order to contrast to higher level software which could be changed without replacing a hardware component, and firmware is typically involved with very basic low-level operations without which a device would be completely non-functional. Firmware is also a relative term, as most embedded devices contain firmware at more than one level. Subsystems such as CPUs, flash chips, communication controllers, LCD modules, and so on, have their own (usually fixed) program code and/or microcode, regarded as ďpart of the hardwareĒ by the higher-level(s) firmware.
Without firmware as a backbone, there is really no software as it is commonly perceived, to be run. From DVD drives to portable music players to the computers inside of an automobiles, firmware is integral to their functioning.

Firmware is software that is semi-permanently placed in hardware. Firmware does not disappear when hardware is powered off. The memory that firmware uses is very speedy ó making it ideal for controlling hardware in which performance is paramount.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2018 11:09
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garoto628 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
garoto628 wrote:
TonyEX wrote
BTW, it's called Firmware not software.



Youíre joking right? Firmware is software, it just represents a category of software and how closely it relates to the actual operability of the hardware.

I do this for a living, we donít need to have this argument again. Weíve already had it years ago.



Tony is right though. Firmware is not software. Maybe pedantic but if you're say, someone who works with microcontrollers, it's an important distinction.



The future of cars is software, not firmware.

The garmin navigation, software its an app bakes into the OS.
HondaLink, software.
CarPlay, software.
Android Auto, software.

Anything that youíre pressing with your finger and interacting with, software. Even if it ultimately is all bundled together and shipped as one.

Firmware IS software. The point is, the future of cars is software. Or is the future of cars firmware? Thatís just nuts.



I believe that most of those are running on Blackberry QNX. A realtime embedded OS... also known as?

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2018 12:36
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:D

Honestly, it's like the fucking Peoples' Front of Judea round here, sometimes!

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2018 14:51
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Nick GravesX wrote:
:D

Honestly, it's like the fucking Peoples' Front of Judea round here, sometimes!




Romanes Eunt Domus

(I hope I spelled that correctly).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lczHvB3Y9s

Romani Ite Domum
Romani Ite Domum
Romani Ite Domum
Romani Ite Domum
...



TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2018 15:05
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Hmm.. I better change my resume and job titles then.

Let me talk to the manager....

Heck, I better change the design document I'm writing too.

Sell the Paladium, dump the Lauterbach, no need for FPGAs. No more core dump analysis (heck, that'll be nice).

Just use the Windows machine in the corner that has Microsoft Studio (or whatever they call it) and start programming in Java and C#.

Firmware: permanent software programmed into a read-only memory.


garoto
Profile for garoto
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2018 15:22
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TonyEX wrote:
Hmm.. I better change my resume and job titles then.

Let me talk to the manager....

Heck, I better change the design document I'm writing too.

Sell the Paladium, dump the Lauterbach, no need for FPGAs. No more core dump analysis (heck, that'll be nice).

Just use the Windows machine in the corner that has Microsoft Studio (or whatever they call it) and start programming in Java and C#.

Firmware: permanent software programmed into a read-only memory.




You can configure settings on the infotainment system, thatís not read only. Itís not read only. Seriously? Garmin is firmware? HondaLink
Is firmware? CarPlay is firmware? A browser is firmware?

Please donít change your job title. Just have a little bit of an open mind and donít be so up tight.


Now. For real. This is /thread for me.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2018 15:30
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garoto628 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
Hmm.. I better change my resume and job titles then.

Let me talk to the manager....

Heck, I better change the design document I'm writing too.

Sell the Paladium, dump the Lauterbach, no need for FPGAs. No more core dump analysis (heck, that'll be nice).

Just use the Windows machine in the corner that has Microsoft Studio (or whatever they call it) and start programming in Java and C#.

Firmware: permanent software programmed into a read-only memory.




You can configure settings on the infotainment system, thatís not read only. Itís not read only. Seriously? Garmin is firmware? HondaLink
Is firmware? CarPlay is firmware? A browser is firmware?

Please donít change your job title. Just have a little bit of an open mind and donít be so up tight.


Now. For real. This is /thread for me.




(void***) pFunc(void*);

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Honda: Era of self-reliance is over...    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2018 10:36
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OK, what to say here? Honda's leadership talks about it can't go on developing alone or is looking for strategic partner. Is this good or bad - it mostly depends on the partner I'd say.

Looking at Honda's development for the last years, what do I see? I see an ever shrinking market in Europe. I see an failed global Hybrid implementation. I see some boring looking Acura sedans and SUVs in US, which - according to some guys here are no good at all. And I see recently the launch of downsizing engines, just as Volkswagen and Ford did over a decade before.

Since Honda made the statement above, I doubt they are in a situation that they are satisfied with. Something goes wrong and when I compare growing japanese brands as Toyota or Mazda I notice that latter ones are continueing their approach they already had some years ago: building better engines, building better cars. People are talking about Mazdas Skyactiv engines and their efficiency, they also praise Toyotas hybrid engines for their efficiency and reliability.

About Honda, there is nothing to talk. They go round in circles trying this, trying that, cancelling again and more than once it seems they are rather copying the competition rather than leading the innovations. Most prominent example are their latest Turbo engines, and despite that some TOVers praise them, just because there's an Honda badge applied to them, they won't turn out any better than Volkswagen, Ford or Hyundai's direct injected Turbo engines, who walked along this path already years ago. The recall in China just was the beginning.

Now I don't know what Honda plans to do. My hope is that they start cooperating with other japanese manufacturers and build efficient and reliable engines again. I also hope they will have the guts and balls to stand their ground and keep to their approach, even when some car-journalist-bitches write all kind of shit. What good did car-jourlanists ever do for Honda anyways? They always scream for sportscars which nobody with a normal income and some common sense would use for daily driving.


 
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