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TOV Forums > Strictly Technical > > Re: Honda Oil and Oil Filters Mess

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CarPhreakD
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Re: Honda Oil and Oil Filters Mess    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-27-2017 19:57
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My issue with what you're saying is that you started out this whole fuel dilution thing by stating it as a fact. You said:


With the fuel dilution issues I've seen on the 1.5L engine, I know I would consider using a 5W-30 for a cycle or two and run UOA's.


When in fact, you know and have seen nothing of the sort and are making assumptions based on internet threads (ones in which skeptical members are already calling bullshit, and others are already tripping themselves over when they find out their assumptions are wrong).

This is the kind of shit that spreads on the internet as hysterical alternative facts. At best you're just spreading FUD, at worst, you're giving bad advice to people.

Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: Honda Oil and Oil Filters Mess    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-27-2017 21:00
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CarPhreakD wrote:
My issue with what you're saying is that you started out this whole fuel dilution thing by stating it as a fact. You said:


With the fuel dilution issues I've seen on the 1.5L engine, I know I would consider using a 5W-30 for a cycle or two and run UOA's.


When in fact, you know and have seen nothing of the sort and are making assumptions based on internet threads (ones in which skeptical members are already calling bullshit, and others are already tripping themselves over when they find out their assumptions are wrong).

This is the kind of shit that spreads on the internet as hysterical alternative facts. At best you're just spreading FUD, at worst, you're giving bad advice to people.



Here is something more factual below and shows you are wrong about your fuel dilution assumptions. Nothing made up at all.

http://papers.sae.org/2015-01-0967/

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda Oil and Oil Filters Mess    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2017 01:50
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You should read the paper, since it doesn't contradict anything I said.

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: Honda Oil and Oil Filters Mess    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2017 02:41
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CarPhreakD wrote:
...
You should use the manufacturer recommended viscosity and oil change intervals. While you feel that 0W-40 may be better protection for your engine, you will probably find out that this isn't the case because of the additional pump head pressure you are now creating.

Worst case- you worsen pump cavitation and you decrease pump flow to the cylinder head. Understand that oil pumps are designed with a certain fluid viscosity in mind and are tested using only those oils. Go outside of manufacturer specs at your own peril. Please do not fucking speak for the engineers.

We're at ILSAC GF5 oils now with GF6 just over the horizon.



A few items of clarification is needed here.

The difference between a 0W-40 specification vs a 0W-20 is that the 0W40 does not thin out as much as it heats up. By viscosity rating alone, that is the only difference. It is not a thicker oil by specification. Based on rating, the 0W means they are both equally as thick under 0 degrees F.

Now, at 212 degrees F, the 0W20 will thin out more than the 0W40. Oil all thin out as it is heated but the 0W40 does not thin out as much as the 0w20. Hence consider the 0W40 not as a heavier grade oil, but one with a more stable viscosity with the same cold temperature performance under cold but higher resistance to thinning as it heats up.

As for reduced pump flow, under cold conditions they are the same. However, when it heats up the 0W20 will be less viscous hence potentially more flow. But let's think about this. Is the worse case for oil pump under cold or under hot oil conditions? I don't know for sure but I suspect that under cold, oil flow is paramount and that is when oil is thickest and cold is when 90% of engine wear occurs. Hot conditions may have the 0w20 thinning out if you are tracking your car or running in Arizona/Texas heat.

My bike and car both have different oil recommendation based on how warm the ambient conditions it is going to operate in. However, Honda's recent one specification of 0W20 regardless of operating temperature goes against everything we have learned about oil. Hence I suspect Honda is amplifying the recommendation and/or running the thinner oil to meet FE requirements and compromising some element of longevity on the engine.

I inquired my engineering director at my work place who has decades of experience in IC engine development on the OEM level. He reinforces what we already know. The drive to thinner oil is driven by regulation (EPA) and technology (tighter tolerances).

With that said, a 0W20 oil is as thick as 0W40 and the 0W20 will be thinner under hot. So tighter engine tolerances for oil flow is worse under cold conditions because oil is thicker. So I still see a 0W40 is better than a 0W20, except perhaps for fuel economy.

However, I am open to changing my mind if there is a valid reasoning and science behind an argument.

In regards to GF4 and GF5, they are completely different from Group 3, Group 4, and Group 5 synthetics. GF is a additive requirement/specification whereas the latter is what the base oil stock used. Group 3 not considered synthetic in Europe whereas it is in USA. Group 4 and 5 are considered true synthetic. One can read about it here.

https://www.pca.org/news/2015-11-02/synthetic-word-relates-motor-oil

Group 5 synthetics are rare but redline makes it. Some Mobil 1 and Castrols (European) are group 4 with PAO. However, the 0W20 that Mobil 1 sells is not likely a group 4 or 5, more likely a group 3 and it is labelled as Advance fuel economy so you know exactly what this oil is made for.

Look thru the Mobil 1 specs, the 0W20 has less zinc and less phosphorous, than EP or 0W40. The 0W40 has around 80% more of these antiwear properties. Hence this engineer and many others consider the 0W20 an compromised oil geared for fuel economy and not optimized for performance nor outright protection.

Nevertheless, this may be all overkill because even a group 3 synthetic is better than non-synthetic oil. And with Honda, engines typically do not fail because of oil.

This has now become a bobistheoilguy discussion. I welcome your feedback and I apologize if I had offended you.




CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda Oil and Oil Filters Mess    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2017 03:12
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As you just said, at initial warmup, there is supposed to be no appreciable difference between OW-20 and OW-40, and the same holds true for cold weather startup. The 20 vs. 40 argument becomes relevant as soon as your vehicle is warmed up.

The pump, particularly variable vane type pumps in today's oil circuits, are more sensitive to two things: inlet cavitation due to flow requirements, and insufficient flow to the upper cylinder head especially with newer cylinder head technologies (VCT and variable valve lift technology). if you're using a heavier weight oil, you increase both the risk of cavitation at the pump inlet (at higher RPMs) and the additional pressure head causing potential lower flow to the upper cylinder head (at idle). It gets even worse when you throw start/stop into the mix, since the front end crank bearing sees a lot of wear.

This isn't even talking about oil-driven VCTs, solenoids and the like.

You can get away with using much higher viscosity oils if you have a relatively simple engine with a geroter type pump, such as those used in pushrod V8s and other engines without variable valve tech. But the benefits aren't always apparent, and I would not risk it in a modern engine unless the recommendations comes from the OEM or associate (for example, who might recommend the use of heavier weight oils in racing with specific engine modifications and under the assumption of X hours servicing to account for wear). I've seen OEMs and their suppliers make changes to the variable cam phaser for example because of high warranty returns from people using the wrong viscosity oil, and having to design them for greater tolerance (at the cost of actuation sensitivity). What I don't understand is why you people think you're smarter than the engineers who made these recommendations, since none of you have done durability testing on your claims.

All oils are moving towards less phosphorus and zinc. These metals poison the catalytic converter and hurt emissions.

Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: Honda Oil and Oil Filters Mess    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2017 07:37
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CarPhreakD wrote:
You should read the paper, since it doesn't contradict anything I said.



We you said:

fuel will ALWAYS evaporate from the oil. This has been true since the beginning of time.

While the paper said:

In a cyclic-load engine test simulating the customer drives of a target vehicle powered by the engine, the maximum level for fuel dilution was found to be up to 9%, causing significant drop in the oil viscosity.

Doesn't sound like all of the fuel is evaporating from the oil in TGDI engines and oil viscosity is subsequently affected.

It is fact that fuel dilution breaks down your oil and a lot of people doing UOAs are seeing it.

I know of several people running 30W oils in Honda engines with no issue at all. And that is with vehicles at 100,000+ miles (some 200K+). Honda even recommends using a 5W-30 in the new Civic in other markets in the world. It is not hysterical alternative facts. A lot of people don't buy in to the use of 20W oils, which is pretty much EPA driven.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda Oil and Oil Filters Mess    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2017 11:52
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Hondu wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
You should read the paper, since it doesn't contradict anything I said.



We you said:

fuel will ALWAYS evaporate from the oil. This has been true since the beginning of time.

While the paper said:

In a cyclic-load engine test simulating the customer drives of a target vehicle powered by the engine, the maximum level for fuel dilution was found to be up to 9%, causing significant drop in the oil viscosity.

Doesn't sound like all of the fuel is evaporating from the oil in TGDI engines and oil viscosity is subsequently affected.

It is fact that fuel dilution breaks down your oil and a lot of people doing UOAs are seeing it.

I know of several people running 30W oils in Honda engines with no issue at all. And that is with vehicles at 100,000+ miles (some 200K+). Honda even recommends using a 5W-30 in the new Civic in other markets in the world. It is not hysterical alternative facts. A lot of people don't buy in to the use of 20W oils, which is pretty much EPA driven.



You forgot the context. If you have access to the whole article, you can see the cyclic load they are referring to. The granny-cycle involves shutting down the car in cold temperature conditions and then driving fairly slowly, simulating one of the scenarios I was talking about earlier, which is repeated cold starts (despite that, the fuel dilution did level out, which is interesting). This is a durability test, not one that is realistic for every customer. The 9% that they got from doing that test isn't unusual or unexpected either.

The bigger point is, is this a problem? The paper highlights a few things, that A) this level of fuel in the oil should be expected and accounted for, B) that the effects are more concerned with carbon buildup and oil consumption and C) there are several countermeasures that most OEMs are already taking, since oil dilution doesn't just affect direct injected engines, but also port injected hybrids and PHEVs.

I wouldn't join the people who are twisting their panties over greater than 5% fuel dilution and no evidence of wear. I don't have any issue with anybody running alternate Honda-spec oils. My problem is that you very clearly stated that you "know" that there is a problem with fuel dilution in specific engines, when in fact you were making assumptions based on random internet threads.

You guys are going to be really upset once 0W-16 comes around.

Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: Honda Oil and Oil Filters Mess    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2017 12:23
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Hondu wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
You should read the paper, since it doesn't contradict anything I said.



We you said:

fuel will ALWAYS evaporate from the oil. This has been true since the beginning of time.

While the paper said:

In a cyclic-load engine test simulating the customer drives of a target vehicle powered by the engine, the maximum level for fuel dilution was found to be up to 9%, causing significant drop in the oil viscosity.

Doesn't sound like all of the fuel is evaporating from the oil in TGDI engines and oil viscosity is subsequently affected.

It is fact that fuel dilution breaks down your oil and a lot of people doing UOAs are seeing it.

I know of several people running 30W oils in Honda engines with no issue at all. And that is with vehicles at 100,000+ miles (some 200K+). Honda even recommends using a 5W-30 in the new Civic in other markets in the world. It is not hysterical alternative facts. A lot of people don't buy in to the use of 20W oils, which is pretty much EPA driven.



You forgot the context. If you have access to the whole article, you can see the cyclic load they are referring to. The granny-cycle involves shutting down the car in cold temperature conditions and then driving fairly slowly, simulating one of the scenarios I was talking about earlier, which is repeated cold starts (despite that, the fuel dilution did level out, which is interesting). This is a durability test, not one that is realistic for every customer. The 9% that they got from doing that test isn't unusual or unexpected either.

The bigger point is, is this a problem? The paper highlights a few things, that A) this level of fuel in the oil should be expected and accounted for, B) that the effects are more concerned with carbon buildup and oil consumption and C) there are several countermeasures that most OEMs are already taking, since oil dilution doesn't just affect direct injected engines, but also port injected hybrids and PHEVs.

I wouldn't join the people who are twisting their panties over greater than 5% fuel dilution and no evidence of wear. I don't have any issue with anybody running alternate Honda-spec oils. My problem is that you very clearly stated that you "know" that there is a problem with fuel dilution in specific engines, when in fact you were making assumptions based on random internet threads.

You guys are going to be really upset once 0W-16 comes around.



Maybe I could have phrased it better, instead of using the word "problem". Like I previously said, I agree, more data is needed to see if it really is any kind of "problem" and Honda accounted for it in their design.

My point was more that it is occurring in these engines and people are seeing it in UOAs. For some makes/engines, it has turned into problems. Based on what the UOA companies are writing, I can see why some owner's would be alarmed (red flagging it, telling them to take action, etc.).

I am running 0W-20 in our DI Acura and am not concerned. I change my oil as specified by the MM and have run UOAs myself. For owner's who are worried though, I don't think their using a 5W/0W-30 in their L15 engines would really be a problem either.

And, yes, I know the new Camry has specified 0W-16 oil and it does not worry or upset me at all. My only concern would be sump size if using this oil (I imagine they would be very shear resistant formulations).

The use of thick vs thin oils has been debated on BITOG ad nauseam and a host of other auto websites I've frequented. Oil selection is like religion to some, though I am not in that camp. I typically follow manufacturers recommended grades, though also let data/experience guide my decision.


 
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