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TOV Forums > Professional Motorsports > > Re: Indy: Chevy penalized into the NEGATIVE

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RolledaNsx
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No hope for Honda in Indy either.    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2015 21:17
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After the first group test at Barber today,Honda is in trouble.

1)Chevy has better teams.

2)Chevy has better drivers.

Chevy holds the top of the time sheat with Honda on the bottom.
Top Honda is 3/4 of a second of the top time of the day.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: No hope for Honda in Indy either.    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2015 21:21
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Afternoon test...Honda got it done to .3 to Chevy but most Honda's are off the pace.
sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: No hope for Honda in Indy either.    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2015 23:11
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In such a tightly controlled formula the teams with the better drivers are always going to be at the fore, and it's Honda's own fault that they let the better teams and drivers slip through their fingers......
CafeDelMar90
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Re: No hope for Honda in Indy either.    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2015 04:26
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what a disappointing year for hondas 4-wheeled motosport prospects : WTCC; still being whipped by Citroen, Supergt; hard to see them beating the sweetly tuned GTRs, F1; well do i need to say anything further than whats been covered already, LMp2; ESM have ditched the ARx-04 and now this in Indy

well atleast Motogp season isnt too far away and maybe Marc Marquez and crew can put a smile on our face..

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: No hope for Honda in Indy either.    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2015 07:24
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sadlerau wrote:
In such a tightly controlled formula the teams with the better drivers are always going to be at the fore, and it's Honda's own fault that they let the better teams and drivers slip through their fingers......


The aero was pretty open. When they allowed the aero to be open, it was going to create a larger gap between the engine manufacturers. I bet the Wirth package isn't working as expected, which was sort of expected...

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: No hope for Honda in Indy either.    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2015 08:32
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CafeDelMar90 wrote:
what a disappointing year for hondas 4-wheeled motosport prospects : WTCC; still being whipped by Citroen, Supergt; hard to see them beating the sweetly tuned GTRs, F1; well do i need to say anything further than whats been covered already, LMp2; ESM have ditched the ARx-04 and now this in Indy

well atleast Motogp season isnt too far away and maybe Marc Marquez and crew can put a smile on our face..



Careful what you wish for, Ducati topped the time sheets at the last pre-season test?

And it seems from testing the Lexus might be the car to beat in SuperGT.

Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: No hope for Honda in Indy either.    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2015 10:22
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RolledaNsx wrote:
After the first group test at Barber today,Honda is in trouble.

1)Chevy has better teams.

2)Chevy has better drivers.

Chevy holds the top of the time sheet.



With all due respect, I think it is too early to declare the season lost after one day of one test session. Also, you have to take into account both of your excellent points. Chevy's teams and drivers are better.

So, if you are HPD, you have to do something radical in order to try to leapfrog the Chevy teams with a superior car. And I would say that it is too soon to do that.

First of all, Honda never ran the full kit on the full car until last weekend. So yesterday was the second day it was run as it will be run in race trim. Chevy ran the full kit from the beginning during the testing/development phase. So Penske and Ganassi in particular have a lot of experience with these cars.

Second, these engines "count" toward the yearly allocation of Five engines per car. So no one wants to blow one. One of the things that HPD is trying is to run its engines will less cooling capacity than they had last year. So they don't want to turn up the volume and blow five or six all at once. Because that would slow aero development to a crawl.

Third, there is no need to run full bore now. Most of the teams are building a new "book", trying A/B settings with aero AND dampers to see what gets the best balance. Once they find the right balance, then they will turn up the engine. At this point the Chevy teams are way ahead on building a setup book. Especially Penske and Ganassi, the teams that tested the Chevy kit.

Fourth, the Chevy kit is like a DW12 +++, so the engineers have a better idea of how it is going to react. Its significantly better than last year's car, but nothing fundamental has changed. All the old "book" settings work. Honda, on the other hand, fundamentally changed the nature of the car in an effort to leapfrog Chevy. That's a double-edged sword. The Reward would be that it has a higher ceiling than the Chevy. The risk is that it also has a lower floor.

In particular, HPD has said that they tried to add a fundamental characteristic to the car through the aerokit. Let's assume for a moment that they might try to change the car from being dominated by understeer to being "pointy" or more neutral. That would take a good long while for the engineers and drivers to wrap their heads around. Somewhere I saw RHR say that he had not been able to run flat through a couple of places at Barber that he was able to run flat last year with the DW12. That means that they have not yet found the sweet spot for the Honda kit.

Lastly, In order for Honda to be competitive, it had to try to leapfrog Chevy on the aerokit design. We won't know how they did until we see some live qualifying and live races. Because as open as they have been about the design, we don't really know what they intended until we see:

* How fast the two cars are in a straight line
* How fast they qualify
* How well they use tires
* How far they can can go on a tank of fuel

Given the disparity in quality of teams and drivers, unless Honda has an advantage in two or three of those areas and is at least equal to the Chevy in the rest, Honda will get swamped by the tide of Chevy talent.

BLK
Profile for BLK
Indy: Chevy penalized into the NEGATIVE    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-06-2015 22:06
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Maybe there's some hope?

IndyCar: Chevrolet penalized for engine regulation infraction

Chevrolet, which earned 128 points in the season-opening round of the Verizon IndyCar Series at St. Petersburg, has been penalized 220 points for a violation of IndyCar engine regulations.

According to Rule 10.6.4.4 of the Verizon IndyCar Series rulebook, 20 points will be deducted for a non-minor engine repair. Eleven of the 12 Chevrolet engines in the field underwent repairs following the St. Petersburg race.

All Chevrolet and Honda competitors are using the first of their allotted four engines covering 10,000 miles for the season.

Engine manufacturers, drivers and entrants receive championship points corresponding to their finish in a race (points are awarded to both manufacturers' top three race finishers). Bonus points are awarded to the corresponding driver who earns the pole position (one point) and the manufacturer leading the most laps (two points).

Manufacturers also can reap 10 points for each engine that reaches its 2,500-mile change-out limit. But 20 points will be deducted for an engine failing to complete its life cycle and 20 points will be deducted for an engine undergoing a non-minor repair that requires a component change, subject to series approval. The latter is what occurred with the 11 Chevrolet engines.

Juan Pablo Montoya earned 50 points for the St. Petersburg race win, followed by Team Penske teammate Will Power's 40 points for second and third-place finisher Tony Kanaan (35 points). Power earned Chevrolet a bonus point for claiming the pole. Chevrolet-powered drivers led 105 of the 110 laps to earn two additional points, for a total of 128 for the race.

Ryan Hunter-Reay was the highest finisher among Honda drivers, in seventh place. He earned 26 points for the manufacturer, which totaled 70 points. Following the Chevrolet sanctions, Honda holds a 162-point advantage in the manufacturers' championship heading into this weekend's Indy Grand Prix of Louisiana at New Orleans Motorsports Park.



Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Indy: Chevy penalized into the NEGATIVE    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-07-2015 07:24
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That's odd, I would think they would penalize you for the next race, not the race you just completed.
Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: Indy: Chevy penalized into the NEGATIVE    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-07-2015 11:00
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Dren wrote:
That's odd, I would think they would penalize you for the next race, not the race you just completed.


They take points away. That can be done anytime.


Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: Indy: Chevy penalized into the NEGATIVE    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-07-2015 11:18
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BLK wrote:
Maybe there's some hope?

IndyCar: Chevrolet penalized for engine regulation infraction

Chevrolet, which earned 128 points in the season-opening round of the Verizon IndyCar Series at St. Petersburg, has been penalized 220 points for a violation of IndyCar engine regulations.

According to Rule 10.6.4.4 of the Verizon IndyCar Series rulebook, 20 points will be deducted for a non-minor engine repair. Eleven of the 12 Chevrolet engines in the field underwent repairs following the St. Petersburg race.

All Chevrolet and Honda competitors are using the first of their allotted four engines covering 10,000 miles for the season.

Engine manufacturers, drivers and entrants receive championship points corresponding to their finish in a race (points are awarded to both manufacturers' top three race finishers). Bonus points are awarded to the corresponding driver who earns the pole position (one point) and the manufacturer leading the most laps (two points).

Manufacturers also can reap 10 points for each engine that reaches its 2,500-mile change-out limit. But 20 points will be deducted for an engine failing to complete its life cycle and 20 points will be deducted for an engine undergoing a non-minor repair that requires a component change, subject to series approval. The latter is what occurred with the 11 Chevrolet engines.

Juan Pablo Montoya earned 50 points for the St. Petersburg race win, followed by Team Penske teammate Will Power's 40 points for second and third-place finisher Tony Kanaan (35 points). Power earned Chevrolet a bonus point for claiming the pole. Chevrolet-powered drivers led 105 of the 110 laps to earn two additional points, for a total of 128 for the race.

Ryan Hunter-Reay was the highest finisher among Honda drivers, in seventh place. He earned 26 points for the manufacturer, which totaled 70 points. Following the Chevrolet sanctions, Honda holds a 162-point advantage in the manufacturers' championship heading into this weekend's Indy Grand Prix of Louisiana at New Orleans Motorsports Park.





I just posted a summary of St. Pete with a look forward to Nola at the Temple of VTEC Motorsports site:
http://motorsports.vtec.net/blog/55/indycar-what-did-we-learn-st-pete-what-expect-nola/#.VSP0FboY_sI

One additional piece of information in the post is that Chevy "repaired" the engines after an engine from the same batch failed durability testing. In order to repair it, Chevy had to break a seal. I am guessing it was something like a bearing or seal that indycar applies to the engines when they are put into service.

Let me know what you think.

Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: Indy: Chevy penalized into the NEGATIVE    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-07-2015 13:53
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Just updated the blog post above again. Chevy statement is that it found the valve springs could fracture prior to the 2,500 mile use limit. And that it will repair the 12th engine in a couple weeks.
Memo60
Profile for Memo60
Re: Indy: Chevy penalized into the NEGATIVE    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-07-2015 16:32
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Thank you Bullwinkle for the info, what I read is the problem with HPD kit is that is more complicated than Chevy when you set it up, there is are lot of combinations with HPD, than chevy, but I think Honda will get it sorted out soon.

 
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