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  TOV News > 04.26 BestCar reveals some specs for the 1.5 VTEC Turbo found in new StepWGN > > Re: Comparison to current gen numbers

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Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 00:43
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R20: 150ps @ 5500 RPM / 19.7 Kg-m @ 4400 RPM

A15: 150ps @ 4400 RPM / 20 Kg-m @ 1500-5000 RPM

Should move the car easier at lower speed. I wonder though, I never quite understand the torque figure of a turbocharged engine. Why a range? Is the lower RPM because of the turbo spooled, but then the engine RPM needs to spin higher... My confusion...

blackstripe77
Profile for blackstripe77
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 08:03
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It's probably because the engine has a flat-ish torque curve, and maintains that torque output through that whole range, rather than rising and peaking at 4400RPM before dropping back down again. Imagine a flat-topped plateau instead of a mountain with a pointy top.

If the different power outputs are simply due to state of tune... does that mean one could easily retune it to 200ps? Is the lower state of tune purely for fuel efficiency? Why not offer the car at both states of tune, seeing as the Spada model is marketed as the sportier car?

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 08:11
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As integrated as these turbo engines look, there might not be a lot of room for a power tune like some other cars have.

If Honda offers a 200+ hp version of this engine, I bet the internals are different along with the turbo.

Restless
Profile for Restless
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 09:09
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an example of 1.8T VW engine - stock and after chip tuning

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 10:02
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blackstripe77 wrote:
It's probably because the engine has a flat-ish torque curve, and maintains that torque output through that whole range, rather than rising and peaking at 4400RPM before dropping back down again. Imagine a flat-topped plateau instead of a mountain with a pointy top.

If the different power outputs are simply due to state of tune... does that mean one could easily retune it to 200ps? Is the lower state of tune purely for fuel efficiency? Why not offer the car at both states of tune, seeing as the Spada model is marketed as the sportier car?



That's exactly it. It's great for FE, as you don't need to rev the engine beyond low-range to make progress.

The only downside of a flat torque line is it feels a bit boring, as there's little point in revving the nuts off it. Rising curves tend to 'feel' more exciting.

But presuming it has the same bore/stroke as the L15, it's not gonna be a happy revver even in Yo VTEC! state of tune.

The new K20 ought to be far more fun.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 10:37
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It's exactly because the car hits a peak torque number... but instead of on a N/A engine with the torque peak at one point, turbo engines are sometimes artifically limited to a certain peak torque over a rpm range.

Flat torque curve= linear horsepower curve. Very likely the limits are in place for A) "marketing" reasons (use of the same engine in different states of tune to give the perception of more upscale engine... and the customer is charged appropriately) or B) the turbo itself is pretty close to maxed out and would be running inefficiently at higher power levels or C) some durability concern with adjoining components i.e. a transmission that cannot take higher torque levels.

typer_801
Profile for typer_801
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 11:13
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Hopefully these new turbo Honda motors have upside in output similar to the VW 2.0L Turbo (AE888). A stage 1 tune only is worth almost 100 crank HP and over 100 crank lb/ft of torque. 1/4 Trap speed on these with just a tune improves to 110mph from 97mph stock. Pretty amazing!

APR Stage 1 Tune (VW GTI VII)



CarPhreakD wrote:
It's exactly because the car hits a peak torque number... but instead of on a N/A engine with the torque peak at one point, turbo engines are sometimes artifically limited to a certain peak torque over a rpm range.

Flat torque curve= linear horsepower curve. Very likely the limits are in place for A) "marketing" reasons (use of the same engine in different states of tune to give the perception of more upscale engine... and the customer is charged appropriately) or B) the turbo itself is pretty close to maxed out and would be running inefficiently at higher power levels or C) some durability concern with adjoining components i.e. a transmission that cannot take higher torque levels.




JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 11:22
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CarPhreakD wrote:
It's exactly because the car hits a peak torque number... but instead of on a N/A engine with the torque peak at one point, turbo engines are sometimes artifically limited to a certain peak torque over a rpm range.

Flat torque curve= linear horsepower curve. Very likely the limits are in place for A) "marketing" reasons (use of the same engine in different states of tune to give the perception of more upscale engine... and the customer is charged appropriately) or B) the turbo itself is pretty close to maxed out and would be running inefficiently at higher power levels or C) some durability concern with adjoining components i.e. a transmission that cannot take higher torque levels.



That's a good point (C) - this engine makes similar peak torque to the old one and maybe the CVT is carryover, and was thus likely designed to deal with that level of input torque. So, for longevity they just designed it to run at that peak torque output at nearly the entire operating range.

DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 12:25
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http://world.honda.com/news/2012/4120405New-CVT-Midsize-Vehicles/
Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 14:11
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Restless wrote:
an example of 1.8T VW engine - stock and after chip tuning



Right, I'm aware that there are large gains to be had on the VAG turbo engines. The way the Honda engines look built, I don't know if they will have as high of a ceiling.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 14:20
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You mean because the VAG engines are architecturally similar to diesels?

At least with Honda's 2.0T, the pistons were definitely designed for extremely high cylinder pressures and the block is heavily reinforced. I'm not sure if this is the case for 1.5 and below engines. I'd expect as a economy based engine that this isn't something you want to crank up in any case. Especially if it's hooked up to a CVT...

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 16:33
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The post-tune gains for that VAG engine are impressive but the curve isn't. From 4,500rpm to redline it's slowly running out of steam.
iutodd
Profile for iutodd
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-26-2015 22:45
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Midi_Amp wrote:
R20: 150ps @ 5500 RPM / 19.7 Kg-m @ 4400 RPM

A15: 150ps @ 4400 RPM / 20 Kg-m @ 1500-5000 RPM




And of course:

R18: 143 hp at 6500 rpm / 129 lb-ft at 4300 rpm (17.8 kg-m)

A Civic with 150 hp and 150 lb-ft sounds about right. Depends upon the weight I guess - I think the car will be bigger I just don't think it will be that much heavier but we'll see soon enough I guess.

blackstripe77
Profile for blackstripe77
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-27-2015 04:22
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CarPhreakD wrote:
You mean because the VAG engines are architecturally similar to diesels?

At least with Honda's 2.0T, the pistons were definitely designed for extremely high cylinder pressures and the block is heavily reinforced. I'm not sure if this is the case for 1.5 and below engines. I'd expect as a economy based engine that this isn't something you want to crank up in any case. Especially if it's hooked up to a CVT...



As long as the Honda turbo doesn't chomp on its own turbos for breakfast, lunch, and dinner I guess it'll be good enough for most people. For us, anyways, at 1.5l it also drops the car down one tax bracket. I guess not many other owners slap RE11s on a van and take them canyon carving...

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-27-2015 08:24
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iutodd wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
R20: 150ps @ 5500 RPM / 19.7 Kg-m @ 4400 RPM

A15: 150ps @ 4400 RPM / 20 Kg-m @ 1500-5000 RPM




And of course:

R18: 143 hp at 6500 rpm / 129 lb-ft at 4300 rpm (17.8 kg-m)

A Civic with 150 hp and 150 lb-ft sounds about right. Depends upon the weight I guess - I think the car will be bigger I just don't think it will be that much heavier but we'll see soon enough I guess.



I'm guessing smaller, lighter, but bigger on the inside. Thinner A-pillars please.

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-27-2015 10:34
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In order to make this "right sized" in terms of output for the Civic application this engine will be detuned enough that it should be very reliable and robust. The question is whether it will be playful.
Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-27-2015 13:09
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gofast182 wrote:
In order to make this "right sized" in terms of output for the Civic application this engine will be detuned enough that it should be very reliable and robust. The question is whether it will be playful.


I think the answer is no.

DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-27-2015 13:36
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I think, from reading brief test drives of the 201 hp version, that engine is quite good.
CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-27-2015 22:55
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CarPhreakD wrote:
You mean because the VAG engines are architecturally similar to diesels?

At least with Honda's 2.0T, the pistons were definitely designed for extremely high cylinder pressures and the block is heavily reinforced. I'm not sure if this is the case for 1.5 and below engines. I'd expect as a economy based engine that this isn't something you want to crank up in any case. Especially if it's hooked up to a CVT...



From the information I've soaked up about these engines, the 2.0t is a high performance application while the 1.5/1.0t's are more economy based applications. For some reason when people (speaking in general) see "turbo" they automatically think high performance. I don't think that's the case here. However, I'm sure Honda left a bit of room for tuning in terms of component strength.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2015 04:56
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blackstripe77 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
You mean because the VAG engines are architecturally similar to diesels?

At least with Honda's 2.0T, the pistons were definitely designed for extremely high cylinder pressures and the block is heavily reinforced. I'm not sure if this is the case for 1.5 and below engines. I'd expect as a economy based engine that this isn't something you want to crank up in any case. Especially if it's hooked up to a CVT...



As long as the Honda turbo doesn't chomp on its own turbos for breakfast, lunch, and dinner I guess it'll be good enough for most people. For us, anyways, at 1.5l it also drops the car down one tax bracket. I guess not many other owners slap RE11s on a van and take them canyon carving...



Lunch for a MK 7 GTI.


rocky
Profile for rocky
Re: Comparison to current gen numbers [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2015 15:25
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Ford has a 1.5 Ecoboost in cars as big as the Fusion.

181hp @ 6,000

185ftlbs @ 4,320

So 150hp would be very conservative


 
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