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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less

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DrWhiner
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Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 15:38
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We all know Mazda promised to reduce the weight of the new Miata. But it seems the performance of the new one will merely match the current one.

2015 Miata
power 167 hp
weight 2480 lb

2016 Miata
power 155 hp (-7%)
weight 2332 ib (-6%)

Oh BTW didn't Mazda promise to cut weight by 100 kg?

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 15:57
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More power will come later.
Chris David
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Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 16:12
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Seems like Mazda pulled a Honda and failed to meet expectations. Judging for the vitriol over on their forums, lot of Miata fans are unhappy. It doesn't really matter to me since I'd never buy one, but it seems like a bone headed decision.
Trip
Profile for Trip
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 16:18
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According to Mazda's USA website, an AT Miata weighs in at 2619 lb/1188kg. The 2016 is 2382 lb/1080 kg. That's about a 237 lb/ 108 kg (2016 weight according to Car and Driver is 2332 for MT add about 50 lb for the AT).

A manual Miata ... 2015 weighs in at 2593 lbs /1176 kg. The 2016 is 2332 lbs / 1058 kg. That's about a 118 kg / 261 lb drop in weight.

Looks like Mazda hit their goal to me.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 16:27
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The new Miata promises to be an excellent sports car, with aggressive weight reduction and 50/50 weight distribution with the 2.0.
DrWhiner
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Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 16:28
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Haha. My figure comes from Mazda USA.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=modelsSpecs&vehicleCode=MX5

TurkMan71
Profile for TurkMan71
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 16:58
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Yea, that new Miata sucks! It's no where near as good as Honda's 2016 convertib...oh, wait...nevermind:-(

Maximania
Profile for Maximania
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 17:14
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2015 Miata with a 6-speed is 2511 pounds. That's a more accurate comparison. The 2016 only comes in a 6-speed, so it's unfair to compare it to a 5-speed. That's still not a 100 kg, but the 100 kg is lost on the 1.5 liter model. That's the one that Mazda engineers focused on the most. That's the one that received power upgrades. They wanted to go back to basics, and they say that the true Miata is the 1.5 model, not the 2.0.

If anyone is interested in this car, the Fiat version of this should make nice power with their 1.6 turbo engine. No powerful version for Miata anytime soon

A77X
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Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 19:48
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Never forget that an occupant or 2 makes more difference in a lighter car....the weight of the car may cone down but the occupants weight probably goes up!

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 19:55
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A77X wrote:
Never forget that an occupant or 2 makes more difference in a lighter car....the weight of the car may cone down but the occupants weight probably goes up!



:D

Yup - if you want to increase performance, eat fatty meat & leafy green vegetables only and forget about costly forged alloys!

S600=Dream
Profile for S600=Dream
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 21:57
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Man, people who think the Miata is underpowered don't "get it".

My '90 probably MX-5 puts maybe 85 horsepower to the ground, but it doesn't really matter. It's brilliant. It would be brilliant with 50 horsepower, frankly.

It's not about going fast, it's about how it feels, and the Miata has the feels in spades.




superchg2
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Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 07:36
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A 2 liter in the Miata should be plenty.
Grace141
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Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 07:54
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Those vitriolic Miata fans may eat cake then. Used Corvettes are available at attractive prices.
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 08:52
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S600=Dream wrote:
Man, people who think the Miata is underpowered don't "get it".

My '90 probably MX-5 puts maybe 85 horsepower to the ground, but it doesn't really matter. It's brilliant. It would be brilliant with 50 horsepower, frankly.

It's not about going fast, it's about how it feels, and the Miata has the feels in spades.






Yeah, but most people cannot drive.

Any twat with a 400BHP engine can go fast in a straight line. An MX-5 requires a delicacy of touch and the ability to drive it at 110% everywhere so as not to lose any speed.

It's exactly the same with the 86, but with its roofless construction, front DWs and better tyres, I'm sure the new MX-5 probably has the edge.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 09:49
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Yes, the chassis is of the upmost importance, but you cannot deny a good addition of power is icing on the cake. Or even if the power isn't quite up to snuff, at least make the engine fun and willing to rev. Just like what we have been accustomed to with the fun performance oriented VTEC engines.

The S2000 had a great balance of chassis to power with a fun ICE. I have a feeling this new Miata 1.5 is very underwhelming to drive. But I don't know, I haven't driven one yet.

Chris David
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Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 09:58
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All the reviews say it's very fun to drive. Sounds like a great chassis. The problem is that people expect things to get a little better with each generation and when it comes to sports cars this inevitably means more power.

Even the much maligned 9th gen Civic Si had a few more HP on paper. A drop of 12 hp in a sports car from one generation to the next is quite surprising.

Also 155 hp out of a 2 liter is lousy. The chassis might be great but that sounds like a pretty unexciting engine.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 10:35
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That car-fattening is simply the wrong approach; look what became of the Datsun 240Z.

Just add lightness, as Colin Chapman said.

The S2000 is about as far as you can take the approach - it requires a level of driving skill that the MX-5 doesn't and thus the latter is far more accessible for a greater proportion of drivers.

OK, Honda engines may be sweeter, but I still reckon the MX/86 are pretty good. Remember, our traditional roadsters usually had a miserable long-stroke asthmatic pig-iron bag o' shite. Like the MGB, for example.


DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 11:01
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Nick GravesX wrote:

Yeah, but most people cannot drive.

Any twat with a 400BHP engine can go fast in a straight line. An MX-5 requires a delicacy of touch and the ability to drive it at 110% everywhere so as not to lose any speed.

It's exactly the same with the 86, but with its roofless construction, front DWs and better tyres, I'm sure the new MX-5 probably has the edge.


I briefly drove a Miata many years ago, but I don't remember anything about the drive. The 86's I have driven more recently I do remember, and that sensation of yaw on a hard corner is something I will never forget. At first, you are 100% sure you are going to spin the ass out, but how it sits in that space and rotates is pretty cool.

GoFaster
Profile for GoFaster
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 11:27
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Why Honda isn’t still making the S2000 racecar is beyond comprehension. We can only imagine how hi-tech It would be by now, since it never felt it needed to represent 1960s roadsters. It could be the street ready Ariel Atom. Anyone that owned an MX-5 looked at the S2000 in envy of its abilities.

The MX-5 driver enjoyed keeping the engine at a boil to extract hp, while the S2000 driver got an Indy Car at boil.

The MX-5 has put to rest MR2, S2000, Del Sol… All praises to Mazda for being the king of fun.

BTW-I drove MX-5s for 17 years as daily commuter cars and the lack of power actually makes the car more fun as you are constantly rowing the gears to keep it in the sweat spot. Horse and rider.




Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 11:28
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DCR wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:

Yeah, but most people cannot drive.

Any twat with a 400BHP engine can go fast in a straight line. An MX-5 requires a delicacy of touch and the ability to drive it at 110% everywhere so as not to lose any speed.

It's exactly the same with the 86, but with its roofless construction, front DWs and better tyres, I'm sure the new MX-5 probably has the edge.


I briefly drove a Miata many years ago, but I don't remember anything about the drive. The 86's I have driven more recently I do remember, and that sensation of yaw on a hard corner is something I will never forget. At first, you are 100% sure you are going to spin the ass out, but how it sits in that space and rotates is pretty cool.



Yeah - MX-5s are a bit like S2000s; passive RWS means the tail comes out & tends to snap back in again.

The 86 is set up so it will yaw really easily; it's more of a drift hooligan. It's sort of stupid fun on soggy winter tyres at quite modest speeds. It's sort of softer, more forgiving. Reminds me of my old Mk 1 Escort.

The differences between them are subtle, so it's impossible to argue that someone's made the wrong choice.

Maximania
Profile for Maximania
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 11:30
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Well, it would be nice to have more power but the ND is at least as fast as the NC, and people seemed to enjoy the NC. With the ND, you don't get more power, but it's just as quick (in terms of power to weight ratio) and feels lighter. Better interior quality bits and better (subjective) looks on the exterior. Better fuel efficiency and lower drive train loss. It's a better built car, not a faster one. A sports car designed to appeal to more people with a back-to-basics approach.

I think it'll do just fine, despite being low on power.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 11:49
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Exactly - I think they were trying to make it closer to the gorgeous NA.
DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 12:11
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TurkMan71 wrote:


Yea, that new Miata sucks! It's no where near as good as Honda's 2016 convertib...oh, wait...nevermind:-(


I'm waiting for the much hyped 2017 RX-7 or MPS3 .... oh, wait ....

wait ....


wait ...

DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 12:31
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Maximania wrote:
2015 Miata with a 6-speed is 2511 pounds. That's a more accurate comparison. The 2016 only comes in a 6-speed, so it's unfair to compare it to a 5-speed. That's still not a 100 kg, but the 100 kg is lost on the 1.5 liter model. That's the one that Mazda engineers focused on the most. That's the one that received power upgrades. They wanted to go back to basics, and they say that the true Miata is the 1.5 model, not the 2.0.

If anyone is interested in this car, the Fiat version of this should make nice power with their 1.6 turbo engine. No powerful version for Miata anytime soon


Mazda shrunk the fuel tank by over 17%, the smallish trunk of 5.3 cu ft is downsized by 13%. For JDM, the base model now comes without rear bar. The list goes on and on.

I think Mazda also promised a 5% better pound to horsepower ratio. Is that happening?

If Mazda can spend the effort to up the power of the rather pedestrian 1.5 L engine by 22%, what's stopping them from doing the same to the 2.0 L engine? Does this reflect a lack of will or lack of effort?


superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 12:34
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4 lug wheels instead off 5...
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 12:45
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I'm not sure what people are expecting. A miraculous car offering 400hp and 2000 lbs?

The Miata has always had rather shitty engines, they're reliable but don't have much character (until cammed). So it continues. The only thing I'm wondering is whether the driving experience is as good or better than the Toyobaru twins, the other value driving-fun proposition. The Toyobarus have real roofs and more powerful engines too.

For my part I await the turbocharged Fiat version. Twice as likely to set you on fire, but potentially even more fun.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 12:45
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Nick GravesX wrote:
OK, Honda engines may be sweeter, but I still reckon the MX/86 are pretty good. Remember, our traditional roadsters usually had a miserable long-stroke asthmatic pig-iron bag o' shite. Like the MGB, for example.


A friend of mine has a Triumph Spitfire "toothpick" with a tractor engine in it. I thought he was joking when he told me the engines were out of tractors. It's surprisingly fun to ride in, though. All 40 odd horsepower.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 13:00
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Nick GravesX wrote:
DCR wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
Yeah, but most people cannot drive.

Any twat with a 400BHP engine can go fast in a straight line. An MX-5 requires a delicacy of touch and the ability to drive it at 110% everywhere so as not to lose any speed.

It's exactly the same with the 86, but with its roofless construction, front DWs and better tyres, I'm sure the new MX-5 probably has the edge.

I briefly drove a Miata many years ago, but I don't remember anything about the drive. The 86's I have driven more recently I do remember, and that sensation of yaw on a hard corner is something I will never forget. At first, you are 100% sure you are going to spin the ass out, but how it sits in that space and rotates is pretty cool.


Yeah - MX-5s are a bit like S2000s; passive RWS means the tail comes out & tends to snap back in again.

The 86 is set up so it will yaw really easily; it's more of a drift hooligan. It's sort of stupid fun on soggy winter tyres at quite modest speeds. It's sort of softer, more forgiving. Reminds me of my old Mk 1 Escort.

The differences between them are subtle, so it's impossible to argue that someone's made the wrong choice.


MK 1 Escort, you say? Now you're striking even closer to old-school Datsun territory. If the 510 was the poor man's 2002 the 210 was the minimum wage man's 510 with it's solid rear axle. What is lost on the More Power Crowd is overall size and weight are what matter for us sports car fans rather than power. If the new Miata is downsized in length, width, height, and weight, and if they can bring the unsprung bits back in line with what a true sports car should be, the fun factor can really be dialed up. A smaller footprint and lower height can equal smaller wheels and tires which result in better turn-in response and less of the barge feeling.

The BR-S twins look great with their low roof height. And then realize that in the late '70s most of the compact family sedans sat that low to the road.

typer_801
Profile for typer_801
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 13:02
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More HP or maybe two engine options. If you look at the winning recipe of other niche models (pony cars), one major key to their success is powertrain options. Not everyone craves power, but some do.

For the same reason, Chevrolet offers a V6 and a V8 in the Camaro, Mazda should offer another higher output motor in the Miata. Will satisfy both contingents of buyers.

CarPhreakD wrote:
I'm not sure what people are expecting. A miraculous car offering 400hp and 2000 lbs?

The Miata has always had rather shitty engines, they're reliable but don't have much character (until cammed). So it continues. The only thing I'm wondering is whether the driving experience is as good or better than the Toyobaru twins, the other value driving-fun proposition. The Toyobarus have real roofs and more powerful engines too.

For my part I await the turbocharged Fiat version. Twice as likely to set you on fire, but potentially even more fun.



DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Mazda Miata: Less means less    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2015 13:08
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Maximania wrote:
2015 Miata with a 6-speed is 2511 pounds. That's a more accurate comparison. The 2016 only comes in a 6-speed, so it's unfair to compare it to a 5-speed. That's still not a 100 kg, but the 100 kg is lost on the 1.5 liter model. That's the one that Mazda engineers focused on the most. That's the one that received power upgrades. They wanted to go back to basics, and they say that the true Miata is the 1.5 model, not the 2.0.

If anyone is interested in this car, the Fiat version of this should make nice power with their 1.6 turbo engine. No powerful version for Miata anytime soon


[edit]
Well hindsight is always 20/20. But that doesn't stop poster here from speculating the ND would weigh 2,200 lb! Engine of 180-200 hp power!!

Mazda shrunk the fuel tank by over 17%, the smallish trunk of 5.3 cu ft is downsized by 13%. For JDM, the base model now comes without rear bar. The list goes on and on.

I think Mazda also promised a 5% better pound to horsepower ratio. Is that happening?

If Mazda can spend the effort to up the power of the rather pedestrian 1.5 L engine by 22%, what's stopping them from doing the same to the 2.0 L engine? Does this reflect a lack of will or lack of effort?




 
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