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TOV Forums > Professional Motorsports > > Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem

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CarPhreakD
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Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2015 15:52
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RolledaNsx wrote:
The Honda PU was detuned about 200hp at Melbourne.


The Honda PU while installed in the MP4/30 is retaining too much heat in certain important parts(MGU-K and Electronics) that make them fail.

The only fix this year is too redesign those parts to work in a hotter enviroment(or add cooling ) because they can't move them to a cooler location without designing a whole new car.



I'd be surprised if these parts are not water cooled.

gofast182 wrote:
^ it truly is amazing. Button and Dennis have mentioned it in quotes over the past week, basically they get one thing going and it will have a positive chain-reaction effect on others. They sort the MGU-K, they get power from it, then they can also turn the engine up and get more power from it, with more power they go faster on the straights and generate more downforce, with more downforce they can generate more aerodynamic grip, and if they can generate more aerodynamic grip they can warm up the tires more, and if they warm up the tires more they can generate more mechanical grip, and with more mechanical grip they can brake later entering turns... It's cool to think about.
None of us really know how accurate -200HP is but if you add that back in, get the tires to be stickier, and can then envoke better aero on the chassis...are all reasons I'm not worried about Mc'Honda in the long run.




This is assuming, of course, that it doesn't go the other way, with more power revealing even more issues.

Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2015 16:59
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CarPhreakD wrote:
This is assuming, of course, that it doesn't go the other way, with more power revealing even more issues.

This is very true, every racecar is 'easy' to drive at 8/10ths.

dampflok
Profile for dampflok
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2015 17:55
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Colin wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
This is assuming, of course, that it doesn't go the other way, with more power revealing even more issues.
This is very true, every racecar is 'easy' to drive at 8/10ths.
I remember reading a remark long ago from someone in the motorcycle racing world, something along the lines of, If your bike handles well, that just means it's down on power.


iutodd
Profile for iutodd
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-21-2015 19:40
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Saw this on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/mclaren_soul/status/579407538489278464

It's something anyway.

Soniccar
Profile for Soniccar
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-21-2015 21:10
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Nice. Thanks for posting that.
RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-21-2015 22:46
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A major reason the Honda MGU-K is having such problems at the moment is because Honda and Mclaren took their MGU-K way beyond what the other manufactures are doing.

The other three PU manufactures put their MGU-K next to the engine block with inputting power to the front of the crank thru a gearbox.

Honda put theirs between the engine and the transmission.The reason for that is to keep the chassis compact and narrow.

But are having overheating problems with discharge and seal failures to heat and torsenal stress(the engine and trans is a stress member of the car...then the MGU-K will get that stress too).So that is why they didn't see the problem until the PU was in the car.

S600=Dream
Profile for S600=Dream
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-22-2015 00:21
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I mean, I'm *definitely* no engineer...

...but really, I could have told you that putting the MGU-K--or any other component, frankly--between the engine and transmission would cause insane heat issues.

Especially in a turbocharged F1 car.

I mean, it seems like a "no shit sherlock" situation to me.

[trying to keep half glass full mentality]

What are the supposed fixes?? Sounds tricky.

Nino
Profile for Nino
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-22-2015 01:53
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Bottle of liquid nitrogen?

Regards,

Nino

dampflok
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Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-22-2015 01:59
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S600=Dream wrote:
I mean, I'm *definitely* no engineer...

...but really, I could have told you that putting the MGU-K--or any other component, frankly--between the engine and transmission would cause insane heat issues.
And then there are the torsional-stress issues mentioned by RaN.

Was it like this?

Person A: "Wait, the engine and transmission are a stressed member. If we put the MGU-K between them, won't that be under stress too? Shouldn't we try to figure out any problems with that before we test the complete car?"

Person B: "Nah, we're good."

Or worse (if that's possible), was there not even a Person A in the first place?


sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-22-2015 05:11
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More likely they understood there would be torsional issues, but failed to allow for the extent of those forces!

I'm reminded of reading about the issues Lotus and Williams faced from the SEVERE vibrations of Honda's first F1 V6 turbo engine. They had to keep increasing the strength of the components around the engine to cope. I'll never forget the first time I heard that engine revving in anger - it sounded like it was about to explode at any second it sounded so offbeat and, well odd!

Soniccar
Profile for Soniccar
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-22-2015 08:29
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But that is how road cars are built. And the nsx? I know they are not stressed though
Chris David
Profile for Chris David
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 08:05
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S600=Dream wrote:
I mean, I'm *definitely* no engineer...

...I mean, it seems like a "no shit sherlock" situation to me.




I remember in my first semester of engineering school the professor was showing us a chain saw motor and said something like "If you could design a simple 2 cycle motor now, I give you a degree today". We all thought it was a ridiculous statement since such a motor is so simple. Now after working as an engineer for 20+ years I realize how much brilliance goes into the the most simple things. Which is why I don't pretend to know what is wrong with the new Honda power unit.

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 08:23
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Just came across this web site thanks to the guys at Autosport,, not sure if it's been displayed on here before?

http://en.hondaracingf1.com/honda-lab.html

Does a fabulous job on explaining just what is going [generically] on in a current F1 motor!

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 09:53
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This is a good read on cornering forces. It says the only higher than Button cornering forces during the race were the Mercedes duo and Massa. So when Honda gets it shit together, they will be looking good.

http://www.formula1.com/content/fom-website/en/latest/features/2015/3/race-performance-ratings-explained--australia---cornering.html

BG
Profile for BG
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 10:48
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sadlerau wrote:
Just came across this web site thanks to the guys at Autosport,, not sure if it's been displayed on here before?

http://en.hondaracingf1.com/honda-lab.html

Does a fabulous job on explaining just what is going [generically] on in a current F1 motor!



Posted here

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 11:13
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BG wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Just came across this web site thanks to the guys at Autosport,, not sure if it's been displayed on here before?

http://en.hondaracingf1.com/honda-lab.html

Does a fabulous job on explaining just what is going [generically] on in a current F1 motor!



Posted here



I didn't think it could have been missed, just shows I don't read every post! 😃

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 12:13
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sadlerau wrote:
More likely they understood there would be torsional issues, but failed to allow for the extent of those forces!

I'm reminded of reading about the issues Lotus and Williams faced from the SEVERE vibrations of Honda's first F1 V6 turbo engine. They had to keep increasing the strength of the components around the engine to cope. I'll never forget the first time I heard that engine revving in anger - it sounded like it was about to explode at any second it sounded so offbeat and, well odd!



Maybe they just hired from seal engineers from European OEMs. Actually I don't see any reason why MGU-K would be worse between engine and transmission, particularly as a integrated component it would actually be easier to keep cool. I'm not sure why everyone here seems so fixated on air cooling everything.

BG
Profile for BG
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 12:23
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sadlerau wrote:
BG wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Just came across this web site thanks to the guys at Autosport,, not sure if it's been displayed on here before?

http://en.hondaracingf1.com/honda-lab.html

Does a fabulous job on explaining just what is going [generically] on in a current F1 motor!



Posted here



I didn't think it could have been missed, just shows I don't read every post! 😃



I miss alot of things when threads get renamed.... this was originally Australia GP - Spoiler thread.... :/

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 12:24
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Can't air cool it because it is intergrated into the ICE block(located where you expect to see the clutch).....like I said......light years ahed of what the other PU manufacturers are doing.

Oil cooled too.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 12:29
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Can't air cool it because it is intergrated into the ICE block(located where you expect to see the clutch).....like I said......light years ahed of what the other PU manufacturers are doing.

Oil cooled too.



I may be visualizing this all wrong, but this almost sounds IMA-ish?

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Mclaren Honda MP4/30 problem    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2015 15:10
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JeffX wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
Can't air cool it because it is intergrated into the ICE block(located where you expect to see the clutch).....like I said......light years ahed of what the other PU manufacturers are doing.

Oil cooled too.



I may be visualizing this all wrong, but this almost sounds IMA-ish?



If it is really wild, I'd guess the crank doubles as the rotor, sharing similar internal oiling/cooling circuits. The stator would be built into the block.

IMA is more like a flywheel electric motor. But yes, similar, just not as wild an implementation. Sounds very Honda-like...


 
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