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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: GM suspends Cadillac production

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NoBrainer
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GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2014 11:41
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The Detroit News reports that GM is going to suspend production of ATS and CTS because of sales running below forecast.
Cadillac ATS sales are down nearly 21 percent through July this year, while CTS sales are flat year-to-date. But sales of the CTS — redesigned for the 2014 model year — in July fell more than 29 percent from July 2013. The compact ATS was all new as a 2013 model and won North American Car of the Year that year. The CTS took home Motor Trend Car of the Year honors for 2014.

RMTRADER
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Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2014 12:03
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I think they are priced too high compared to the competition. Add in the recent GM recalls and this does not surprise me.
iutodd
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Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2014 12:10
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If only Acura would get serious and design a true RWD BMW competitor.
CivicB18
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Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2014 13:21
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RMTRADER wrote:
I think they are priced too high compared to the competition. Add in the recent GM recalls and this does not surprise me.


I think Cadillac has fair pricing as they've squared up the ATS and CTS directly against the Germans while providing class leading driving dynamics. However, their drivetrains (3.6/2.0t) need some refining.

CivicB18
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Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2014 13:32
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iutodd wrote:
If only Acura would get serious and design a true RWD BMW competitor.


This site has discussed the RWD argument to death. RWD alone won't save Acura. I think Acura can still use FWD architecture and be considered a top luxury brand. Audi has proven that. However, some models should be AWD only as these V6's can easily overpower the front wheels. All V6 TLX's, MDX's and RDX's should be SH-AWD. This would cure excessive wheel spin and torque steer associated with high powered FWD applications.

I've seen several articles of late where the TLX FWD V6 was tested and just about every publication had serious traction issues in daily driving situations. To validate that, the 2013 FWD RDX Tech I had as a loaner a few months back exhibited the same issue and it was annoying, especially trying to turn into traffic from a stop. It would either spin or not go anywhere. SH-AWD would cure that easily.

Back to Cadillac...coverting its sedan lineup to RWD has helped its image somewhat but the Cadillac name still has that stigma. Even if Acura did switch to RWD that doesn't necessarily mean sales volume would justify it, Cadillac is learning that now.

RMTRADER
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Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2014 13:39
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But very few will buy an ATS when the 3 Series is priced equally. In that respect, the value proposition falls off, although GM discounts help. Ergo, it seems overpriced.
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2014 15:27
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Discounting isn't good for a premium image, since it knocks residuals. The Germans do it via the back door via preferential lease rates.

Really, Cadillac is old enough to be a tier 1 brand, but I don't think GM really understands how to run one. Or tiers 2 or 3, come to that.

Inebriated Snake
Profile for Inebriated Snake
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2014 16:19
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Thats just plain depressing. They are bringing their A game as much as possible within the constraints of GM corporate and its quirks. But its still just not enough. And if not Cadillac, then who if anyone could ever dispose the German kings? Not even to dispose but live and thrive within the realm of being a viable equal choice.

Its becoming not even a matter of the right product and advertising, but the daunting task of liberating the entrenched idea that "Luxury + Automobiles = Europe" from the global consciousness of human thought. Each Cadillac could come with a pile of gold and the solution to world hunger and it wouldn't matter.




NoBrainer
Profile for NoBrainer
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2014 18:17
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RMTRADER wrote:
But very few will buy an ATS when the 3 Series is priced equally. In that respect, the value proposition falls off, although GM discounts help. Ergo, it seems overpriced.

There is a sizeable incentive available now.
At the beginning of 2013, a few months after its introduction (IIRC), the average discounts shot up to almost $4,000.

Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2014 21:43
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Nick GravesX wrote:
Discounting isn't good for a premium image, since it knocks residuals. The Germans do it via the back door via preferential lease rates.

Really, Cadillac is old enough to be a tier 1 brand, but I don't think GM really understands how to run one. Or tiers 2 or 3, come to that.



Its that lack of continuity in GMs marketing of their brands that is an issue. People need to clearly understand what a brand means for them. If everyone has a different perception of a brand the whole look at the Jones thing just doesn't work.
That hurts every tier, obviously more so one that is newish to the playing field.

Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 00:54
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Even with Motor Trend award the car didn't sell... I really don't know what it takes for a premium auto brand to survive in the states. Cadillac has all the hallmark of a premium brand, or at least copied the Germans to the dot. Universal premium design but not over the top, modern interior, drivetrains and the sports version. What else is there to copy? Cadillac even has the legacy to match as the car of America's leaders.

Recalls? I don't know... It won't be that drastic as to suspend production. Toyota and Lexus survived the recall fiasco.

I really hope this event won't justify Honda to further hold back Acura.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 07:27
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Not really so long ago:



I'm not even gonna post a pic of the Cimarron.

Due to lack of a truly negative (i.e. joke) image, I think Acura could actually be easier to rescue than Cadillac. We'll see if the Chinese & Russians fall for it.

NoBrainer
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Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 08:08
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What does the Cadillac brand stand for?

For too long they have indulged in the SUV craze, for too many this is the true Cadillac!




Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 08:10
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Nick, what did the Honda cars look like back in 1970? How about the Audis? Of the 1970 cars I think the one I'd like to have would be the 911S but it's nothing at all like the modern version.

I think there are a lot of factors in play with the current Cadillac sales numbers. I believe the US economy is a lot softer than our government is telling us - our unemployment numbers are improving largely because we've changed how we count the unemployed. And auto sales numbers in general are soft this year. My one complaint about Cadillac's approach with the ATS though is it's too close to the CTS, if you add the two numbers together you get a decent result, and I suspect this is a big factor behind this current news. Cadillac launched the CTS as a 3-series competitor. They then launched the ATS as that same 3-series competitor. So what happened to where the CTS is placed? Is it now targeted at the 5-series and, if so, how does it compare in any manner other than price? Does anyone know where you then go above the CTS in the Cadillac range? Typical GM what with a great start followed up by very poor execution.

http://www.cadillac.com/

I think the XTS looks like a good car. Did anyone notice it starts at a lower price than the CTS? The XTS is just an Impala platform car after all. As for the ATS, the top end of the price range is at $58,760. Who here would spend that money on an ATS?

Last question. If this is how you compete with the Germans why would Honda want any part of it? I mean it's not like Cadillac is the first to try this and fail. It has happened every five years or so all the way back to the success of the New Class with every brand from Dodge to Pontiac offering "a BMW for regular guy prices" with neither ending up being reality.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 08:34
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Honda looked very 'European' & they still use a few styling gags they defined on the Civic. Audi was very much the 'big VW' before they really developed into a separate brand in the 1980s.

They have to this day, maintained a very linear & logical plank evolution; You could compare Accords & 80(A4)s back to then. The most logical (to the point of boring) brand evolution is in fact, the 911. And Porsche in fact scrapped many far more interesting prototypes (see their museum) on the road back to copying the 1963 901/911.

Honda's slightly complicated, in that Acura started to do an Audi but got lost on the way. Probably VW's relative inconsistency in the US market explains their failure over there, exactly like Cadillac & Honda in EU. Audi has been perfectly consistent worldwide.

Caddy's chrome-laden Land Yacht image only really fits Escalades as cars for the proudly tasteless today. It's a shame about the ATS/CTS etc, since, a few Acura-alike overlaps aside, they're decently-engineered. For GMs...

Yes, your economy is (like everyone else's) still close to collapse and pumped up by Ponzi money. Yet one cannot blame that for Acura/Caddy going down, whilst Audi/etc goes upwards. Or possibly one can - the 1%ers will buy genuine Tier 1/2 cars, whilst maybe tier 3s are afflicted with tier 4 disease as the aspirational lower-middle classes are squeezed to death?

Maybe the Cadillac problem IS the same as the Acura, SAAB*, Volvo problem over there? The tier 3s are being squeezed out?

*maybe I've hit on something , but I'd argue that Caddy & SAAB have a more common denominator in their downfall...

This is definitely a more of a marketing/product/consistent brand image (ugh!) thing, but engineering disasters can really destroy that too.


Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 08:56
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I guess the Cadillac numbers may be down due to the safety recall problems GM has been dealing with this year but I can't say I know. If someone decides against buying a current Cadillac due to ignition switches made for cars years ago I think it says a lot about the person.

My point about the 1970 Hondas was they look just as silly today as the Boss Caddy. It was a different time, that's certain. The odd thing about the '70s Cadillacs is they can look comical while the '50s to mid-'60s Cadillacs somehow look fantastic. Go figure. I'm not sure I'd buy any Cadillac from any era including the current ATS and CTS.

CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 10:08
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Nick GravesX wrote:
Not really so long ago:



I'm not even gonna post a pic of the Cimarron.

Due to lack of a truly negative (i.e. joke) image, I think Acura could actually be easier to rescue than Cadillac. We'll see if the Chinese & Russians fall for it.




Actually, back then Cadillac was the king of American luxury as it pretty much defined the luxury segments here. The Germans (Mercedes/BMW) really didn't start eating chunks of the luxury market until the mid 80's.
Now they own it.

Cadillac has came a long way but as I said before the young professional still see Cadillac as an old mans car. I think that's their biggest hurdle as the ATS/CTS are both solid offerings.

MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 14:03
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First of all, the germans are not that special but they are quite nice, mostly they use exactly the right materials for the purpose.

Wood, WTF is wood in a car? In a modern car.

I was very serious about buing a CTS about 3years ago, a 2011 model, but god damn the interior, what's with the WOOD on the steering wheel and gear selector?????

It's not a boat, it's a car!

I think some brands are stuck in the past and try to cater to wealthy Texans who need some cedar wood because that's what the Steinway piano also has.

I would NEVER have bought the Audi S4 if it had any wood trim whatsoever.

Same went with the Honda Legend 2006, what's up with the wood?

How many of you have sat in a RS4/RS4 or M3 and thought, no this is not nice there needs to be some wood in here, carbon/alu imitations doesn't sit right.

I just bought a new watch, not very expensive but nice. A Seiko Velatura. Rubber wristband, some carbon imitation etc all very much 'performance sailing' look alike, I wonder if some people wood prefer some wood in watches also?

Seems like traditions from the wild west are stuck in some manufacturers business :)

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 14:23
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Nick GravesX wrote:
...


Caddy's chrome-laden Land Yacht image only really fits Escalades as cars for the proudly tasteless today. It's a shame about the ATS/CTS etc, since, a few Acura-alike overlaps aside, they're decently-engineered. For GMs...

Yes, your economy is (like everyone else's) still close to collapse and pumped up by Ponzi money. Yet one cannot blame that for Acura/Caddy going down, whilst Audi/etc goes upwards. Or possibly one can - the 1%ers will buy genuine Tier 1/2 cars, whilst maybe tier 3s are afflicted with tier 4 disease as the aspirational lower-middle classes are squeezed to death?

Maybe the Cadillac problem IS the same as the Acura, SAAB*, Volvo problem over there? The tier 3s are being squeezed out?

...



(1) Cadillac design today is largely tasteless. The cars do look good, better even, in a Dodge Caricature sort of way but they tend to be childish outside and the interiors are an incredible waste of space.

(2) Cadillac pricing is also at Cadillac levels, which is to day, some $20K out of whack. The Germans get away with charging so much because they mostly go for the EuroMark financed lease, but GM can not do that. So, Cadillacs are simply overprice and when GM puts money on the hood the cars become bound to "the deal". There is no longer an inherent value, but it's all about the deal, just like the Escalade.

(3) There are not enough 1%'rs to keep a car company afloat. Rolls and Ferrari perhaps, but no one else.

(4) Acura's problem was the buck ugly Power Plenum look (*) Biggest mistake since dropping the Legend/Vigor/Integra names. Acura sells cars to a clientele that values restraint and value most, why did AHM think that they'd gain more customers by going Cadillac in exterior design? Their currrent customers stayed away in droves and anyone who wanted a Cadillac to begin with did not buy an Acura. This is the second time in history that Acura management has screwed the brand.

(5) Saab has been a disaster since the 80s. I'm surprised they've lasted so long.


(*) Plus the cars getting too big and the RLX/TL ongoing dilemma, but that affects the ILX and RLX, not the TL. The TSX issue was that AHM did not bring production to the US as they should have done with the second gen. Having done so they would have avoided the currency issues.


Waldo
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Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 14:46
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CivicB18 wrote:
[
Actually, back then Cadillac was the king of American luxury as it pretty much defined the luxury segments here. The Germans (Mercedes/BMW) really didn't start eating chunks of the luxury market until the mid 80's.
Now they own it.

Cadillac has came a long way but as I said before the young professional still see Cadillac as an old mans car. I think that's their biggest hurdle as the ATS/CTS are both solid offerings.

BINGO! You've hit the reason for Cadillac's problems. Add to the old man's (my father's) dream car image is the Escalade's pimp car image. Also, Caddy has a history of being the choice of many unsavory types in the past. Not many successful people today really want to be seen in a Cadillac, and "being seen in" is what people buy prestige cars for.


ciwai08
Profile for ciwai08
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 15:01
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They're doing everything right. RWD, high HP, excellent handling dynamics, bold clean designs, sport sub division, motorsports competition....everything prescribed 99% of the time on these boards for the Acura brand. Even the resident TOV engineering dude bought one.

This sounds trivial but the one thing holding them back is the logotype. It automatically defeats all of the above and makes it an old man's brand.

NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 18:02
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^They seem to have some concept of the badging stigma as they've made the move to delete the wreath element from the logo and just display the shield/crest.

Now if some would just rethink the plenum. I can only hope that on the drawing table is a Plenum 3.0 awaiting use post neo-NSX...

dampflok
Profile for dampflok
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 18:27
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MarkR wrote:
First of all, the germans are not that special but they are quite nice, mostly they use exactly the right materials for the purpose.

Wood, WTF is wood in a car? In a modern car.

I was very serious about buing a CTS about 3years ago, a 2011 model, but god damn the interior, what's with the WOOD on the steering wheel and gear selector?????

It's not a boat, it's a car!

I think some brands are stuck in the past and try to cater to wealthy Texans who need some cedar wood because that's what the Steinway piano also has.

Brands stuck in the past, like . . . the GERMANS?

2014 Audi A8




2013 BMW 750Li




2015 Mercedes S600




In your own words, "god damn the interior, what's with the WOOD on the steering wheel . . . ?????" Nicht wahr?


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-10-2014 19:51
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Gaudy is the new tasteful, apparently.

The M-B is a testament to other's designs; the air vents are a tribute to Rolls-Royce and the minor switches to the Borgward Isabella Coupe. Brilliant!

Metallised or fake CF inserts are however equally as redundant as wood - in an ideal world, all cars would look as plasticy as a Civic & no-one would want that.

4thaccord
Profile for 4thaccord
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2014 06:30
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Grace141 wrote:
If someone decides against buying a current Cadillac due to ignition switches made for cars years ago I think it says a lot about the person.



If someone decides against buying a current Cadillac due to an unwillingness to support a company who knew full well about the danger of ignition switches made for cars year ago and who did nothing about it I think that says even more about that person. And that is a good thing, not bad.

incubus
Profile for incubus
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2014 08:59
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4thaccord wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
If someone decides against buying a current Cadillac due to ignition switches made for cars years ago I think it says a lot about the person.



If someone decides against buying a current Cadillac due to an unwillingness to support a company who knew full well about the danger of ignition switches made for cars year ago and who did nothing about it I think that says even more about that person. And that is a good thing, not bad.


Let's be fair, if so many people wouldn't attach 20some keys to their damn key chains(ignitions aren't made to handle 5lbs of weight hanging off them), there wouldn't be so many ignition switch problems. I disconnect my car key from all my other keys before putting it in the ignition (I have a quick release keychain) as I had that problem with my Prelude from the last owner destroying the switch.

4thaccord
Profile for 4thaccord
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2014 09:08
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Let's be fair, if so many people wouldn't attach 20some keys to their damn key chains(ignitions aren't made to handle 5lbs of weight hanging off them), there wouldn't be so many ignition switch problems. I disconnect my car key from all my other keys before putting it in the ignition (I have a quick release keychain) as I had that problem with my Prelude from the last owner destroying the switch.



Only people who buy GM cars have heavy key chains according to this sense of logic.

The point is, like Ford with the infamous Pinto memo, GM knew about it and ignored it.
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2014 09:43
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incubus wrote:
4thaccord wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
If someone decides against buying a current Cadillac due to ignition switches made for cars years ago I think it says a lot about the person.



If someone decides against buying a current Cadillac due to an unwillingness to support a company who knew full well about the danger of ignition switches made for cars year ago and who did nothing about it I think that says even more about that person. And that is a good thing, not bad.


Let's be fair, if so many people wouldn't attach 20some keys to their damn key chains(ignitions aren't made to handle 5lbs of weight hanging off them), there wouldn't be so many ignition switch problems. I disconnect my car key from all my other keys before putting it in the ignition (I have a quick release keychain) as I had that problem with my Prelude from the last owner destroying the switch.



'Ludes had a recall over that weak switch.

That's why I like Hondas & not GMs...

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2014 10:01
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Over on a GM fan site, some are pointing towards Acura's value pricing and minimum trim setup as the way to go. Cadillac has more brand power than Acura, but not as much as the big three (BMW,MB and Audi) to make such a bold jump in prices. The price hike is coming back to bite Caddy in a big way. Why buy a car as good as a BMW, when one can just buy a real BMW for same money..............BMW used to run ad saying this in the early 90s.

Some posters here love to trash Euro car makerss for reliability blah blah blah.......But when other car makers are mentioning them by name in their commercials (free advertising), and tight inventory supplies......well, they are doing "something" right. The last time I checked, people in general still aspire to own a BMW, MB, and lately an Audi.

MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: GM suspends Cadillac production    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2014 13:57
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dampflok wrote:
MarkR wrote:
First of all, the germans are not that special but they are quite nice, mostly they use exactly the right materials for the purpose.

Wood, WTF is wood in a car? In a modern car.

I was very serious about buing a CTS about 3years ago, a 2011 model, but god damn the interior, what's with the WOOD on the steering wheel and gear selector?????

It's not a boat, it's a car!

I think some brands are stuck in the past and try to cater to wealthy Texans who need some cedar wood because that's what the Steinway piano also has.

Brands stuck in the past, like . . . the GERMANS?

2014 Audi A8




2013 BMW 750Li




2015 Mercedes S600




In your own words, "god damn the interior, what's with the WOOD on the steering wheel . . . ?????" Nicht wahr?





DampFlok: I mention drivers cars like RS4/6/S and M3-M5 and you find images of Diplomat and new rich Chinese wagons ala BMW 750Li, S600 and Audi A8.

Those are not cars setting the standards for sports sedans.

Please link to some images of RS4/6 or S6 or an M3 with wood trim :)


 
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