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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: VTEC Turbo info

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RolledaNsx
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VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2014 16:58
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Direct and Port injection.

Direct injection is used from cold starts, with a triple injection to minimise spray impingement and increase cat heating, and at full load.The port injection is used mainly at part-load and achieves very good emissions and better fuel efficiency compared to DI only.

Turbo types

Mono-Scroll turbo

Dual-path(not a twin-scroll design but there are two channels in the casing to keep the two gas streams separate) electrically actuated wastegate turbo

VGT

Exhaust gas cooled before intering turbine

Chris David
Profile for Chris David
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2014 17:10
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Is that for the CTR? What is it going into first?
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2014 17:13
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I can see both being used in naturally aspirated engines, but port injection in high pressure turbocharging (which looking at the piston types that Honda previewed in their turbo VTEC engine is what they're going for) is just asking for trouble. They also didn't show two sets of injectors in that video. Nor did they cover development of twin injectors in their engineering congress presentations, as far as I know.
RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2014 19:21
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I can see both being used in naturally aspirated engines, but port injection in high pressure turbocharging (which looking at the piston types that Honda previewed in their turbo VTEC engine is what they're going for) is just asking for trouble. They also didn't show two sets of injectors in that video. Nor did they cover development of twin injectors in their engineering congress presentations, as far as I know.


Only NSX at the moment and I think because of the wide bore.In other engines their looking into to it to better the fuel economy,DI has problems at partial load.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2014 20:03
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VTEC on exhaust side
oil cooled high compression pistons
variable compression ratio
high BMEP
controlled auto-ignition

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2014 01:18
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Why did they not use Direct and Port injection on the normally aspirated DI engines to deal with Carbon Fouling? Did they figure a way to eliminate fouling without Port Injection?
ledebuhr1
Profile for ledebuhr1
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2014 07:34
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Rolled,
Will these engines use VCM?

jshaw
Profile for jshaw
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2014 13:56
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lexusgs wrote:
Why did they not use Direct and Port injection on the normally aspirated DI engines to deal with Carbon Fouling? Did they figure a way to eliminate fouling without Port Injection?

GM has.

It's been quite a while since GM introduced their DI V6 on the US market. Where are the horror stories of carbon fouling on their GM engines?

Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2014 17:49
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VTEC only on exhaust side? It must have something to do with the air swirling in the combustion chamber.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2014 07:49
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Hondatalover wrote:
VTEC only on exhaust side? It must have something to do with the air swirling in the combustion chamber.


No, I think he's saying ALSO VTEC on the exhaust side. The standard is "intake-only" these days. I believe the only current vehicle sold by Honda or Acura which has intake+exhaust VTEC is the TL SH-AWD, and I believe even that one is slightly gimped due to the SOHC configuration.

Every other current Honda/Acura V6 and all current K-series variants employ VTEC only on the intake side.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2014 12:11
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lexusgs wrote:
Why did they not use Direct and Port injection on the normally aspirated DI engines to deal with Carbon Fouling? Did they figure a way to eliminate fouling without Port Injection?


Yes. A PCV system with extremely well implemented oil separation system. I took a look at one of Honda's valve covers, and it's a very simple passive baffling device, but extremely well implemented (with a oil drain path all the way down directly to the oil pan). Also, newer EGR systems.

In contrast, the first couple of generations of VWs with direct injection didn't have any form of oil separation system for the PCV, so you had tons of oil pullover especially at WOT runs when piston blowby is at its greatest. Nowadays especially with the most complicated turbocharged engines the oil separation systems can get ridiculous. Take a look at Mercedes' turbo V6 if you get a chance. The whole friggin Vee-valley is filled with a big stonking oil separator unit (not to mention another centrifugal separator on the camshaft).

You want to have VTEC on the exhaust side strictly because of the turbo.

computernerd
Profile for computernerd
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2014 14:51
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RolledaNsx wrote:
VTEC on exhaust side
oil cooled high compression pistons
variable compression ratio
high BMEP
controlled auto-ignition


Variable compression ratio?? Are you sure about this one Rolled? I know a number of car companies are working on this, but if what Rolled is saying is true, this would likely be the first production use of this technology and it would be huge. With this and controlled auto-ignition it sounds like you are talking about an HCCI engine. I know several car companies are working on this also but I didn't think that anyone was close to production. Can you say anything more about this Rolled?

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2014 15:50
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computernerd wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
VTEC on exhaust side
oil cooled high compression pistons
variable compression ratio
high BMEP
controlled auto-ignition


Variable compression ratio?? Are you sure about this one Rolled? I know a number of car companies are working on this, but if what Rolled is saying is true, this would likely be the first production use of this technology and it would be huge. With this and controlled auto-ignition it sounds like you are talking about an HCCI engine. I know several car companies are working on this also but I didn't think that anyone was close to production. Can you say anything more about this Rolled?



Honda's work on VCR can be read at SAE 2009-01-1046 and 2009-01-1063.

VCR,HCCI,Atkinson,VVT all in play.

computernerd
Profile for computernerd
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2014 17:08
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RolledaNsx wrote:
computernerd wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
VTEC on exhaust side
oil cooled high compression pistons
variable compression ratio
high BMEP
controlled auto-ignition


Variable compression ratio?? Are you sure about this one Rolled? I know a number of car companies are working on this, but if what Rolled is saying is true, this would likely be the first production use of this technology and it would be huge. With this and controlled auto-ignition it sounds like you are talking about an HCCI engine. I know several car companies are working on this also but I didn't think that anyone was close to production. Can you say anything more about this Rolled?



Honda's work on VCR can be read at SAE 2009-01-1046 and 2009-01-1063.

VCR,HCCI,Atkinson,VVT all in play.


I understand that Honda is working on all of these technologies but my understanding was that the VTEC turbos that you were initially talking about are imminent from a production standpoint ( next-gen Accord if not sooner) and will not have HCCI, which is further out. Is that the case? Or Are you saying that we may see VCR and HCCI in the first generation VTEC turbos?

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2014 19:32
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computernerd wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
computernerd wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
VTEC on exhaust side
oil cooled high compression pistons
variable compression ratio
high BMEP
controlled auto-ignition


Variable compression ratio?? Are you sure about this one Rolled? I know a number of car companies are working on this, but if what Rolled is saying is true, this would likely be the first production use of this technology and it would be huge. With this and controlled auto-ignition it sounds like you are talking about an HCCI engine. I know several car companies are working on this also but I didn't think that anyone was close to production. Can you say anything more about this Rolled?



Honda's work on VCR can be read at SAE 2009-01-1046 and 2009-01-1063.

VCR,HCCI,Atkinson,VVT all in play.


I understand that Honda is working on all of these technologies but my understanding was that the VTEC turbos that you were initially talking about are imminent from a production standpoint ( next-gen Accord if not sooner) and will not have HCCI, which is further out. Is that the case? Or Are you saying that we may see VCR and HCCI in the first generation VTEC turbos?



The first versions of the VTEC TURBOS will be performance versions.After that we'll have to see.What I think we will see is not a full HCCI but a partial HCCI engine ,thats were the controlled auto-ignition and Honda's new cylinder pressure sensor that goes around the spark-plug comes in play.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2014 19:58
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It looks like they are trying to tune them to run HCCI at lower speed and lower load regions but normal during all other regions.So with car models that have an ECO Button?

And to analyze the compression ratio,they're just using the knock sensor that use vibration to measure it.The engineers use a hidden Markov Model(HMM) generally used in voice recognition application.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2014 00:58
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computernerd wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
VTEC on exhaust side
oil cooled high compression pistons
variable compression ratio
high BMEP
controlled auto-ignition


Variable compression ratio?? Are you sure about this one Rolled? I know a number of car companies are working on this, but if what Rolled is saying is true, this would likely be the first production use of this technology and it would be huge. With this and controlled auto-ignition it sounds like you are talking about an HCCI engine. I know several car companies are working on this also but I didn't think that anyone was close to production. Can you say anything more about this Rolled?



Be careful how you use that term. Atkinson cycle engines decouple expansion ratio from compression ratio and can be determined to be a form of "variable compression" ratio. Same with miller cycle.

I can see a HCCI naturally aspirated engine but not a turbocharged one. The technology was demonstrated to be feasible but the sensitivity of instruments to accurately control it is pretty large (and expensive).

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2014 06:24
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IIRC, Mazda had a supercharged Miller-cycle V6 (Xedos 9) back in the 1990s. I suppose being fixed-valve timing, you could almost consider it slightly aking to a Detroit Diesel, only petrol...

So the stretch to something similar using a turbo from Honda, with the advantage of VVT & their clever knock sensors on each cylinder isn't too great.

But I agree; terms such as VCR, HCCI, Miller & Atki may all become a bit blurred & we should be careful - yet not too pedantic for now!

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2014 10:44
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Turbo Power to the people!
KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: VTEC Turbo info    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2014 14:30
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I'll pass on Turbo, same as on DCT.

It's not like we don't have experience on reliability of Turbocharged engines and Dual Clutch Transmissions in Europe (VAG lol). The weardown rate is extremely high, and fuel economy depends greatly on driving style. Last but not least, 3 recalls within six months for the i-DCD are enough to destroy any imaginations people had about dry DCTs with Honda.


 
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