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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe

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RolledaNsx
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Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2014 21:13
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Auto sales was up 7.2% the first quarter of 2014 but Honda was down 8%!

Honda has no cars at the moment that the buying public wants!
And the 1.6L diesel didn't save them(the cars still look bad and are over priced)!

Some notes from Automotive Industry Data editor Peter Schmidt

"Honda's problems are all of its own making with the CR-V and Civic,they're got the wrong styling and wrong prices"

"There's no way to solve this overnight,it will take years,so don't expect a quick turnaround."

And they missed on their Hybrid(Insight) and Sports(CRZ) models by not meeting mpg numbers and sportiness to match its high price.

They need the Vezel(HR-V) like two years ago and a new Civic now!

BG
Profile for BG
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2014 04:54
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With delays on getting the Civic to it's Customers, and the Swindon layoffs, it doesn't look to be turning around anytime soon. Fleet sales always makes Honda look bad from a marketshare standpoint.

Manufacturers seem happy to keep vehicles registered and just sitting in forecourts and compounds, don't know how they can fund that all the time.

Also notice that a lot of the manufacturers seem to be setting themselves up as finance companies, therefore when the banks don't lend they will and Honda loses out to that effort too??

Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2014 07:22
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This is not news, Honda fails the European market ever since using Fit platform for the Civic and not refreshing Accord Euro. Late to the game on the turbo, not really, the EP1 Civic K20 was lauded even with its high strung characteristic which carries on to FN2 chassis.

Honda NEEDS to have special vehicle for the European market, one that emulates driving characteristics of the European marque. A USDM Civic based mcpherson strut and multilink suspension is right on the money. Makes it a true hatch and low slung ala EK9 and put the 2.0 VTEC Turbo, problem solved.

I know that Honda can produce a specific car for a market (albeit high volume) like the Brio and Mobilio, so why not make it over on the European market? Profit will come later, Honda needs to acknowledge that there are something wrong in the region, yet no significant action for the past decade. This is just mind boggling... Ito again? Dunno, it's been like this since Fukui reign.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2014 08:43
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Auto sales was up 7.2% the first quarter of 2014 but Honda was down 8%!

Honda has no cars at the moment that the buying public wants!
And the 1.6L diesel didn't save them(the cars still look bad and are over priced)!

Some notes from Automotive Industry Data editor Peter Schmidt

"Honda's problems are all of its own making with the CR-V and Civic,they're got the wrong styling and wrong prices"

"There's no way to solve this overnight,it will take years,so don't expect a quick turnaround."

And they missed on their Hybrid(Insight) and Sports(CRZ) models by not meeting mpg numbers and sportiness to match its high price.

They need the Vezel(HR-V) like two years ago and a new Civic now!



I've been saying likewise for YEARS now.

But who took any notice..?

What a fucking mess to get yourself into.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2014 08:45
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Rolled, we have been discussing this forever and now they have less than 1% of the market. They have been going down this rocky road for a long time.
KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2014 10:46
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Hondas biggest Problem in Europe ain't the cars or their design either. The Civic looks ages better and more modern then any Failwagen the bought medias could propagate. Want to see a real lame and depressing car, take a seat into new Auris/Corolla and you had enough for the next 6 years.

Hondas Problem is the management of Honda Europe and Honda Japan would be best advised to use the big broom in doing a big wipe in european management. Fire 60% of these incompetent rags and bring in some experienced people from the US and Japan to show the rest how to do it properly. There is a bunch of features they have to improve on

1.) Advertising (nearly non existant now)
2.) Car variety (nearly non existant now)
3.) New Earth Dreams engines (see above)
4.) New Earth Dreams transmission (Manuals & CVT)
5.) Hybrids, Hybrids, Hybrids and more Hybrids! (Toyota does it right)
6.) Active model policy (Where is Accord? Where is Crosstour? Where is Oddysey?)
7.) Get their heads out of their a*** (I'm tired to read on which Accura would be accepted by Euro customers. Fact is, you don't have **** in here, and if nobody knows that you exist, they won't give a damn wether seats are in cloth or leather)

It makes me sick to read bull**** about underperforming IMA mild hybrids, while VAG, Ford and others develop pissweak 1.0L/1.2L Turbo engines that perform less, consume more and break after about 30,000km. It's bout time Honda fights back against paid media-lies, but with a management that obviously seem to work rather for the competition than for Honda, one can't think of serious campaigning.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2014 11:11
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Some more points from industry news letter.

1)Honda styled the Civic to go after the young crowd(who don't buy cars or don't know who Honda is) but that decision hurt by pissing off their loyal older buyers.

2)All Honda's are over priced with less content to their comp.

3)Powertrains no choice (turbo,performance,hybrid,diesel?)

4)Nissan was in the same boat in the past but their small SUV just took over the market(150,000+ last year from zero).And Honda was first in that class (HR-V) and they just drop it!Should of done a better 2nd gen!

5)Honda's misunderstood themselves in the market......they're seen as a eco brand not a luxury brand so they need to price so.People will pay for Honda performance models if they perform(not half ass)!

6SPDTL
Profile for 6SPDTL
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2014 13:51
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I think Honda is slowing divesting itself from Europe. The market is crappy, diesel oriented and the competition from VW and others makes it not worth the effort.
MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2014 14:07
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KaizenDo wrote:
Hondas biggest Problem in Europe ain't the cars or their design either. The Civic looks ages better and more modern then any Failwagen the bought medias could propagate. Want to see a real lame and depressing car, take a seat into new Auris/Corolla and you had enough for the next 6 years.

Hondas Problem is the management of Honda Europe and Honda Japan would be best advised to use the big broom in doing a big wipe in european management. Fire 60% of these incompetent rags and bring in some experienced people from the US and Japan to show the rest how to do it properly. There is a bunch of features they have to improve on

1.) Advertising (nearly non existant now)
2.) Car variety (nearly non existant now)
3.) New Earth Dreams engines (see above)
4.) New Earth Dreams transmission (Manuals & CVT)
5.) Hybrids, Hybrids, Hybrids and more Hybrids! (Toyota does it right)
6.) Active model policy (Where is Accord? Where is Crosstour? Where is Oddysey?)
7.) Get their heads out of their a*** (I'm tired to read on which Accura would be accepted by Euro customers. Fact is, you don't have **** in here, and if nobody knows that you exist, they won't give a damn wether seats are in cloth or leather)

It makes me sick to read bull**** about underperforming IMA mild hybrids, while VAG, Ford and others develop pissweak 1.0L/1.2L Turbo engines that perform less, consume more and break after about 30,000km. It's bout time Honda fights back against paid media-lies, but with a management that obviously seem to work rather for the competition than for Honda, one can't think of serious campaigning.



KaizenDo: are you talking about cars for poor people? As really no one makes cars weaker than Honda and then you mention 1.2Eco,thats true but only people with very little money or barely any interest for a car go for Vw/Fords weakest offerings.

Rolled is 100% right, Honda just missed the target, you can only afford to be an Oddball if you have very loyal followers.

What is Earth Dreams? An excuse for poor people to accept much less power and torque compared to the competitors.

I love the defense for low torque and 1990s hp engines here on TOV.



Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2014 15:26
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Some more points from industry news letter.

1)Honda styled the Civic to go after the young crowd(who don't buy cars or don't know who Honda is) but that decision hurt by pissing off their loyal older buyers.

2)All Honda's are over priced with less content to their comp.

3)Powertrains no choice (turbo,performance,hybrid,diesel?)

4)Nissan was in the same boat in the past but their small SUV just took over the market(150,000+ last year from zero).And Honda was first in that class (HR-V) and they just drop it!Should of done a better 2nd gen!

5)Honda's misunderstood themselves in the market......they're seen as a eco brand not a luxury brand so they need to price so.People will pay for Honda performance models if they perform(not half ass)!



Young people lease Up!s (how ought one pluralise that?) of 500s or Adams or Kas. You know, like the Z600 rep. I've been banging on about for years and they cannot make a case for.

Some sort of ILX hatch (but with an engine in it) would be better for the old folks than Bagpuss. Did they think by making them all in Taupe, it'd attract the young, or just the old? OK, the Tourer does look good in Passion red or very dark grey, but it's only like now the colours aren't all boring. The Tourer looks as non-existent in faded silver as does the hatch.

I really think that the entirety of Honda has, for the past decade, been run by moles placed there by Toyota. You couldn't have fucked it up more if you'd have tried.



KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2014 18:06
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MarkR wrote:
KaizenDo: are you talking about cars for poor people? As really no one makes cars weaker than Honda and then you mention 1.2Eco,thats true but only people with very little money or barely any interest for a car go for Vw/Fords weakest offerings.

Rolled is 100% right, Honda just missed the target, you can only afford to be an Oddball if you have very loyal followers.

What is Earth Dreams? An excuse for poor people to accept much less power and torque compared to the competitors.

I love the defense for low torque and 1990s hp engines here on TOV.





MarkR: Are you talking about the US or Europe?

As for me, I'm talking about daily car use that you can experience in Germany. I dunno about your place, but in here people still do 160km/h and higher on the Autobahn with "less power engine" and that's considerably faster then any speed limit in other countries. Superminis as Jazz, Fiesta and Polo are immensely popular.

Sure, there are people who have to compensate for something by pointlessly burning fuel and riding cars they actually can't afford. But I think car companies as Honda and others don't realy want to base their success in trust on such morons.

So from a technological point, Honda offers up to date engine technology in combination with best reliability. The problem is the inability of Honda Europe to communicate it toward the market and that's most likely because the management is indifferent to the market.

DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2014 02:29
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superchg2 wrote:
Rolled, we have been discussing this forever and now they have less than 1% of the market. They have been going down this rocky road for a long time.

LOL. Read the article first before you post.
It's at Forbes.


DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2014 02:32
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So what's the "solution"?

Follow Nissan. Go cheap.

“Nissan was in a dreadful state but was rescued by the Qashqai. The styling of the CR-V didn’t help it compete with products like this. And the CR-V was too expensive to make. Nissan used a bog standard car design and put a tall body on it mimicking the looks of an SUV. The CR-V has been left behind in the crossover (SUV) boom in Europe,” Schmidt said.

jshaw
Profile for jshaw
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2014 03:22
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DrWhiner wrote:
So what's the "solution"?

Follow Nissan. Go cheap.

“Nissan was in a dreadful state but was rescued by the Qashqai. The styling of the CR-V didn’t help it compete with products like this. And the CR-V was too expensive to make. Nissan used a bog standard car design and put a tall body on it mimicking the looks of an SUV. The CR-V has been left behind in the crossover (SUV) boom in Europe,” Schmidt said.


-OR- build products actually worth the price.

Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2014 03:57
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Yeah do not go cheap! Honda has no chance on that in Europe.
Good stuff or out!
Vw Ford Nissan-renault GM all have more stakes in that game and are earlier to it. Honda needs to sell niche stuff in EU.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2014 05:06
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DrWhiner wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Rolled, we have been discussing this forever and now they have less than 1% of the market. They have been going down this rocky road for a long time.

LOL. Read the article first before you post.
It's at Forbes.



What does that have to do with anything, Whiner?
The fact is that we have been talking about these steady declines in the EU for quite some time, regardless of where this most recent info came from.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2014 08:36
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Oh, FFS:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2014/04/17/europes-car-sales-boom-but-honda-trips-over-lame-product-lineup/

Car sales in Western Europe continued to rally from a six year slump, but Honda of Japan’s sales dived as its range of CR-V SUVs and Civic small cars proved unloved and too expensive.

And don’t expect an improvement from Honda any time soon.


Car sales rose 7.2 per cent in the first quarter of 2014 to 3.1 million from 2.9 million in the same period of 2013, according to the European Car Manufacturers Association, known by its French acronym ACEA.

Most manufacturers took full advantage of the rise in consumer confidence. Even GM Europe’s Opel-Vauxhall subsidiary managed a 4.2 per cent gain to 236,632, despite deciding to dump its Chevrolet brand. Ford Europe beat the trend with a 10.5 per cent rise to 237,786. Mazda of Japan was a standout with a 24.7 per cent gain to 46,762. Even financial basket-case Peugeot and its Citroen subsidiary increased sales 7.1 per cent to 353,759. Leader Volkswagen of Germany raised sales 7.3 per cent to 749,085, for a market share of 23.9 per cent.

Honda launched this Type R souped-up version of the Civic at the Geneva car show Honda launched this Type R souped-up version of the Civic at the Geneva car show
But Honda’s sales dived 8.0 per cent to 36,332, with market share of 1.2 per cent versus 1.4 per cent. Honda cut output at its British factory in March, and now expects to produce 120,000 vehicles at its Swindon plant in 2014, down from 140,000 last year, and capacity of 250,000 Civics, CR-Vs and Jazz city cars. At the time Honda comically put down this setback to “weak demand”, as the rest of the industry acclaimed a turnaround. What it really meant was “weak demand for our vehicles”.

Earlier this year, Honda, in another mis-step, withdrew its Insight and CR-Z gasoline electric hybrids from Europe as sales dwindled.


According to Automotive Industry Data (AID) editor Peter Schmidt, Honda has missed the boom in SUVs in Europe and its CR-V is too expensive and lacks the appeal of products like the Nissan Qashqai. The smaller Civic sedan has failed to compete against products like the Ford Focus and Opel-Vauxhall Astra. The latest design of the Civic was meant to appeal to a younger audience, and was too young-looking and brash for Honda’s much-older than average traditional buyers.

AID figures show in 2013 Honda sold just over 41,500 CR-Vs in Western Europe compared with 190,300 Qashqais, and 136,500 VW Tiguans. Even Nissan’s Juke small SUV, a segment in which Honda has yet to appear, racked up more than 100,000 sales in Western Europe.

“Nissan was in a dreadful state but was rescued by the Qashqai. The styling of the CR-V didn’t help it compete with products like this. And the CR-V was too expensive to make. Nissan used a bog standard car design and put a tall body on it mimicking the looks of an SUV. The CR-V has been left behind in the crossover (SUV) boom in Europe,” Schmidt said.

Nissan first quarter sales in Western Europe rose 7.1 per cent to 123,167.

“The Qashqai alone turned Nissan Europe from a loser into a winner. The lack of success of the CR-V is principally responsible for Honda’s misfortune in the European market,” Schmidt said.

The Civic has failed to sell well, with just under 38,000 buyers in Western Europe last year compared with 280,000 for competing products like the Ford Focus and 181,000 Opel-Vauxhall Astras.

“Honda got it all wrong with the Civic. Nissan has shown that if you have the right product at the right price with visual appeal, it doesn’t matter if brand image isn’t up to much,” Schmidt said.

“Honda’s problems are all of its own making with the CR-V and Civic. They’ve got the wrong styling and the wrong prices. The CR-V doesn’t appeal to buyers that are attracted to the Qashqai and Touareg, and it costs too much to make. VW based the Touareg on the Golf (small sedan) so it used cheap off-the-shelf components. The CR-V should have been based on the Civic,” Schmidt said.

Honda looks set for a rocky road ahead in Europe.

“There’s no way to solve this overnight; it will take years, so don’t expect a quick turnaround,” Schmidt said.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2014 09:54
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Fan Koni wrote:
Yeah do not go cheap! Honda has no chance on that in Europe.
Good stuff or out!
Vw Ford Nissan-renault GM all have more stakes in that game and are earlier to it. Honda needs to sell niche stuff in EU.



Yeah; no way can they compete against Korean Krap or Chinese Junk (like MG). And who'd want to? MGs really are shit.

Take the fight to VAG, or just forget it all.

Pakos M
Profile for Pakos M
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2014 10:07
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QQs and tiguans not touaregs. The style of both is right, but both also come with automatic transmissions and small FI diesel and petrol engines. Ford puts the 1.0l engine even to the mondeo. How can you expect to compete this when in most eu Countries taxes result from engine size plus/or emissions. If Honda came up also with a 1.0liter FI accord then it would sell.
KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2014 12:38
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Pakos M wrote:
QQs and tiguans not touaregs. The style of both is right, but both also come with automatic transmissions and small FI diesel and petrol engines. Ford puts the 1.0l engine even to the mondeo. How can you expect to compete this when in most eu Countries taxes result from engine size plus/or emissions. If Honda came up also with a 1.0liter FI accord then it would sell.


Actually Toyota is very successfully selling their HSD Hybrids with 1.5L and 1.8L Atkinson engines. I have absolutely no doubts that the Accord Hybrid i-MMD with 2.0L Atkinson engine would be very popular, if they'd actually sold and promoted it in EU.

DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2014 21:55
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superchg2 wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Rolled, we have been discussing this forever and now they have less than 1% of the market. They have been going down this rocky road for a long time.

LOL. Read the article first before you post.
It's at Forbes.



What does that have to do with anything, Whiner?
The fact is that we have been talking about these steady declines in the EU for quite some time, regardless of where this most recent info came from.


You pulled that out of thin air???


superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-19-2014 23:54
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DrWhiner wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Rolled, we have been discussing this forever and now they have less than 1% of the market. They have been going down this rocky road for a long time.

LOL. Read the article first before you post.
It's at Forbes.



What does that have to do with anything, Whiner?
The fact is that we have been talking about these steady declines in the EU for quite some time, regardless of where this most recent info came from.


You pulled that out of thin air???



Certainly not from this single Forbes article. Maybe you don't read so good, Whiner?

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2014 05:58
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It's currently just over 1% but will probably be just under before the misery stops.

When you're splitting hairs with Mr. Clean,
It's like getting head from a Guillotine...


superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2014 08:37
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Jousting was always a problem for Mr. Clean,
since somebody had slipped him a rubber sword.

MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2014 11:09
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Pakos M wrote:
QQs and tiguans not touaregs. The style of both is right, but both also come with automatic transmissions and small FI diesel and petrol engines. Ford puts the 1.0l engine even to the mondeo. How can you expect to compete this when in most eu Countries taxes result from engine size plus/or emissions. If Honda came up also with a 1.0liter FI accord then it would sell.


You post got me thinking, as I see nothing in EU what you are describing but I only see parts of EU, the thing with EU is that you need to have a broad product portfolio/engine line-up since every country have their different laws and guidelines.

You can sell a 3-series everywhere because it caters to the countries with poor economies and strict taxes as well as it caters to the countries with 'prospering car economy' and less strict car taxes. 316i comfort vs 335i Msport, the totally different price brackets, totally different emissions but either one is sellable in some country.

Here is Sweden we would laugh at a Mondeo with 1.0L engine, hell even the unemployed would refuse to drive an Mondeo with anything less than a 2.0l engine.

What you actually brought up is the difficulty of the EU market.

Say the current Accord/TSX should have had 1.8 140hp/2.0T 210hp/ V6 290hp and there would have been an engine for every tax bracket and wallet.

JMU R1
Profile for JMU R1
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2014 11:11
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Nick GravesX wrote:

“Honda’s problems are all of its own making with the CR-V and Civic. They’ve got the wrong styling and the wrong prices. The CR-V doesn’t appeal to buyers that are attracted to the Qashqai and Touareg, and it costs too much to make. VW based the Touareg on the Golf (small sedan) so it used cheap off-the-shelf components. The CR-V should have been based on the Civic,” Schmidt said.


And this guy is an analyst?

MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2014 11:18
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To remedy EU I think Honda should create a car that is just the class leader, the benchmark. It doesn't matter if it's a small car a big car, an EV, A hybrid, People Carrier/SportsCar/SUV etc.. .just a class leader.

BUT, it cannot be class leader in economy, that is, never before has a car been this cheap, the first SUV that even unemployed dogs can afford. NO, Honda needs to create something EVERY review will talk about as the benchmark.

(for all of you who bring up race/religion/ethno... no it doesn't matter, class leaders usually get praised by everyone.)

It could be the FIT, but it cannot go likes this 'The Fit is the class leader because you cannot compare to luxury brands from BMW/Mini etc...' Either it's a class leader or there are better products in the class.

Create something to be proud of. Suspension for pot holes on Pakistanian roads is nothing to be proud of on paved roads, nor is interior that works well in the sahara dessert.


MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2014 13:47
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MarkR wrote:

BUT, it cannot be class leader in economy, that is, never before has a car been this cheap, the first SUV that even unemployed dogs can afford.



As you need to watch your words on TOV nowadays I need to clarify myself, I don't mean unemployeds are dogs, I will be one myself with the next 15 years I'm sure, it was bad English for manufacturing cars for people who barely can afford anything and dogs as we all know, have no money.

To sum it up, please Honda, pick your beach head and attack, but don't have sorry a** excuses why your product doesn't really take on the elite of the market offerings.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2014 16:43
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Honda at very first need to remedy it's management in Europe. Secondly it's pointless trying to be a class leader, when Europe has several car lobbies and paid automotive magazines that will agitate all day. Finally countries in Europe have all suffered under economic crisis and people who actually have to work for their daily living won't be impressed by pointeless luxury stuff for the rich retards who stirred up all this mess in the first place.

Variety of engines and vehicles is a must to get back on track.

BG
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Re: Honda set for a rocky road ahead in Europe    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2014 05:29
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To put it simply, which would you buy if you had circa €30k and wanted to stand out, because style matters in YuRRP??

This


Or this



I can tell you which one I see plenty of on the roads in a cash depleted Ireland and it's certainly not the H badge!!






 
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