Byron H
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I am a long time Honda owner and about to purchase my tenth one. I'm very reluctant to purchase the 2014 Fit due to this being the first year of all the new technology. My biggest concern is the direct injection. Everything I have read indicates the carbon buildup problem has not really been solved. I have a great deal of faith in Honda's engineering and know they are usually very careful to work out all the problems before selling new models. My 1989 Civic was a similar case since it was one of the first to use VTEC. I gambled when I bought it and it was running strong for 21 years. I took the same gamble with a 2007 Mini Cooper but it did not work out as well mostly due to the direct injection. I am new to TOV and would appreciate any information that would give me more confidence in buying the new model. I already decided I am going to get a new Fit but could use help in deciding whether it will be a 2013 or 2014.
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Potenza
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Technically it would have to be a 2013 or 2015 Fit, since there is no version labeled as a 2014 model year.
Whether or not Honda has completely solved the carbon buildup issue, I am not sure. But all 2013 and 2014 model Accords have direct injection and there have been no issues that I am aware of. And yes, some customers have racked up quite a few miles on them already; enough to know that they at least don't have anywhere near the extent of issues as say, BMW, which began to exhibit issues very early on.
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xBeastx
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Welcome!
The ones in Japan have been doing fine except for the hybrid recalls, which we don't have to worry about :)
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SR45
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Post 13 on this forum regarding Direct Injection.. Issue of the past but Honda in my opinion would not make such a mistake with this and other Honda vehicles..
http://www.fitfreak.net/forums/3rd-generation-2015/81832-anyone-else-little-wary-direct-injection.html
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superchg2
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Potenza wrote:
Technically it would have to be a 2013 or 2015 Fit, since there is no version labeled as a 2014 model year.
Whether or not Honda has completely solved the carbon buildup issue, I am not sure. But all 2013 and 2014 model Accords have direct injection and there have been no issues that I am aware of. And yes, some customers have racked up quite a few miles on them already; enough to know that they at least don't have anywhere near the extent of issues as say, BMW, which began to exhibit issues very early on.
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Of the U.S. market 2013/4 Accord's, only the I4 powered are Direct Injection.
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jshaw
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superchg2 wrote:
Potenza wrote:
Technically it would have to be a 2013 or 2015 Fit, since there is no version labeled as a 2014 model year.
Whether or not Honda has completely solved the carbon buildup issue, I am not sure. But all 2013 and 2014 model Accords have direct injection and there have been no issues that I am aware of. And yes, some customers have racked up quite a few miles on them already; enough to know that they at least don't have anywhere near the extent of issues as say, BMW, which began to exhibit issues very early on.
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Of the U.S. market 2013/4 Accord's, only the I4 powered are Direct Injection.
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In addition, only the 2.4L. The hybrid's 4cyl is port injection.
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superchg2
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jshaw wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Potenza wrote:
Technically it would have to be a 2013 or 2015 Fit, since there is no version labeled as a 2014 model year.
Whether or not Honda has completely solved the carbon buildup issue, I am not sure. But all 2013 and 2014 model Accords have direct injection and there have been no issues that I am aware of. And yes, some customers have racked up quite a few miles on them already; enough to know that they at least don't have anywhere near the extent of issues as say, BMW, which began to exhibit issues very early on.
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Of the U.S. market 2013/4 Accord's, only the I4 powered are Direct Injection.
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In addition, only the 2.4L. The hybrid's 4cyl is port injection.
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Good point jshaw.
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Nick GravesX
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I thought Honda was using a Toyota-like direct & indirect injection belt n' braces system?
It's far easier to fine-tune at low load with indirects and they wash the back of the valves.
Anyway, if you dump a tube of choke cleaner into its gizzard regularly, it seems to keep carbon deposits under control.
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SR45
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Anyone know if the 3 yr honda warranty covers this ?
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jshaw
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It seems moot. GM has used DI on their V6 since 2008 in North America. When have we heard problems from that? This is another case of a few companies giving a new tech a bad reputation (much like Honda's damage to hybrid reputation).
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6SPDTL
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HOnda has been using direct injection on multiple models for a few years now. As far as I know they have been problem free. Not to mention other manufacturers that have been using them for significantly longer too. THe direct injection issues that are frequent around here are BS and at best old rehashed "reports". Direct injections pluses are legion, significantly better FE, better torque, better HP, lower emmisions etc. Honda was simply a late adopter to what is by all measures better technology. If the Fit has been having any significant problems (which I strongly doubt) a little electronic fine tuning should take care of it in no time flat.
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superchg2
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6SPDTL wrote:
THe direct injection issues that are frequent around here are BS and at best old rehashed "reports".
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I'm pretty sure that VW and Audi have had some major issues with carbon build up and I doubt they are BS to the owners of the affected cars.
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superchg2
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6SPDTL wrote:
THe direct injection issues that are frequent around here are BS and at best old rehashed "reports".
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I'm pretty sure that VW and Audi have had some major issues with carbon build up and I doubt they are BS to the owners of the affected cars.
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SR45
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superchg2 wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
THe direct injection issues that are frequent around here are BS and at best old rehashed "reports".
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I'm pretty sure that VW and Audi have had some major issues with carbon build up and I doubt they are BS to the owners of the affected cars.
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Yes, but that picture is from a 100,000 mile engine in 2006, and that means the car is much older than 2006 with the older technology I believe. Do you or any have anything current ???
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superchg2
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SR45, I'm not sure how you came up with that, but the caption indicates a 2006 GLI engine with 100K miles on it, and I imagine many 2006 GLI's might still be on the road.
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deandorsey
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Its been extensively documented on all of the vw / audi forums, all you have to do is google carbon buildup.
 RS4
GTI
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Nick GravesX
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VAG shite. Actually, it's people not thrashing the engines hard enough.
Buy a Honda or a Toyota - built by Subaru...
Our high pressure fuel pump is powered by crickets. Only drawback so far.
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SR45
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superchg2 wrote:
SR45, I'm not sure how you came up with that, but the caption indicates a 2006 GLI engine with 100K miles on it, and I imagine many 2006 GLI's might still be on the road.
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Got me on that one...
My mistake, but do you or anyone have something current to show other than a 2006 vehicle. Lets say a 2012/13 direct injection engine ? I'm concerned about today, not a few years ago.....
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6SPDTL
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Ever heard of this one?
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/toyota-recalls-and-class-action-lawsuits
DEspite even class action suit and a lot of public broohaha even this one is an uncommon problem.
For your info, VW had deposit problems and a myriad of issues with fuel injection systems long before DI. One of the many reason (particularly electrical nightmares) that I refuse to buy any car engineered in Germany.
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superchg2
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SR45 wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
SR45, I'm not sure how you came up with that, but the caption indicates a 2006 GLI engine with 100K miles on it, and I imagine many 2006 GLI's might still be on the road.
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Got me on that one...
My mistake, but do you or anyone have something current to show other than a 2006 vehicle. Lets say a 2012/13 direct injection engine ? I'm concerned about today, not a few years ago.....
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Our resident expert is Shawn Church, and maybe he can shed some light on the current state of D.I. with Honda and other brands as well.
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JeffX
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Nick GravesX wrote:
I thought Honda was using a Toyota-like direct & indirect injection belt n' braces system?
It's far easier to fine-tune at low load with indirects and they wash the back of the valves.
Anyway, if you dump a tube of choke cleaner into its gizzard regularly, it seems to keep carbon deposits under control.
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no, Honda uses a DI-only setup. And they haven't been able to answer me very clearly about this issue and how they prevent the carbon build up, but I have spoken to a few Honda engineers about this and they all indicated that they didn't think it be a problem. Let's hope they're correct.
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dampflok
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JeffX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I thought Honda was using a Toyota-like direct & indirect injection belt n' braces system?
It's far easier to fine-tune at low load with indirects and they wash the back of the valves.
Anyway, if you dump a tube of choke cleaner into its gizzard regularly, it seems to keep carbon deposits under control.
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FiSH-Chan
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I came across this video maybe will help some of you.
I am also wondering if the timing (shown near the end of the video) is really all that needed to prevent the carbon buildup..
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Nick GravesX
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JeffX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I thought Honda was using a Toyota-like direct & indirect injection belt n' braces system?
It's far easier to fine-tune at low load with indirects and they wash the back of the valves.
Anyway, if you dump a tube of choke cleaner into its gizzard regularly, it seems to keep carbon deposits under control.
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no, Honda uses a DI-only setup. And they haven't been able to answer me very clearly about this issue and how they prevent the carbon build up, but I have spoken to a few Honda engineers about this and they all indicated that they didn't think it be a problem. Let's hope they're correct.
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Ah - maybe it's just the NSX that has two sets, then.
Maybe they've done something to the EGR system, which is the PIA which causes all these problems.
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RolledaNsx
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Nick GravesX wrote:
JeffX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I thought Honda was using a Toyota-like direct & indirect injection belt n' braces system?
It's far easier to fine-tune at low load with indirects and they wash the back of the valves.
Anyway, if you dump a tube of choke cleaner into its gizzard regularly, it seems to keep carbon deposits under control.
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no, Honda uses a DI-only setup. And they haven't been able to answer me very clearly about this issue and how they prevent the carbon build up, but I have spoken to a few Honda engineers about this and they all indicated that they didn't think it be a problem. Let's hope they're correct.
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Ah - maybe it's just the NSX that has two sets, then.
Maybe they've done something to the EGR system, which is the PIA which causes all these problems.
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I think the NSX uses D and P injection because it has a big bore and the port/piston design of K24W is great to fix(tumbles the intake air) the Carbon build-up but bad for performance.
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Nick GravesX
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That almost sounds too simple a solution! Time will tell.
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Colin
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dampflok wrote:
I seem to recall forum members discussing this issue a while ago in the context of the 9th-gen Accord, and I got the impression that Honda's plan boiled down to "keeping our fingers crossed."
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I occurred to me that as more cars move to DI the problem might become a non-issue as it's the same for everyone. Maybe de-carborizing the valves might become a routine maintenance done at 30K (or whatever is suitable). Could it end up being like a timing belt where people just accept the inconvenience?
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Nick GravesX
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Colin wrote:
dampflok wrote:
I seem to recall forum members discussing this issue a while ago in the context of the 9th-gen Accord, and I got the impression that Honda's plan boiled down to "keeping our fingers crossed."
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I occurred to me that as more cars move to DI the problem might become a non-issue as it's the same for everyone. Maybe de-carborizing the valves might become a routine maintenance done at 30K (or whatever is suitable). Could it end up being like a timing belt where people just accept the inconvenience?
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I found that dumping a tube of choke cleaner down Hondas at regular intervals improves throttle-response, driveability etc. I think it's the PCV that gunks up the inlet due to VTEC blow-by pressurising the crankcase.
So yes, it's probably discussing a non-issue. EXCEPT, the it should be part of a regular service (so much for non-pollution!) and not something the ignorant customer is expected to know to ask for.
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Byron H
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Thanks for adding the video. This is the best explanation of the carbon buildup problem I have read or seen. As the video explains you must either clean the valves with gasoline or keep contaminants out of the air manifold. Port injection does the first and I have not seen a completely successful methods of doing the second.
The I-VTEC method of delaying the closure of the intake valve at light loads might be part of Honda's solution. At very light load conditions the inlet valve(s) don't close until after the compression cycle has started and air or air/fuel is pushed back into the air manifold. This air or fuel/air is sucked back through the valve(s) on the next intake cycle. If some fuel is purposely added occasionally before both valves open it would pass over the valves and clean them like the port injection does.
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KaizenDo
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I'm wondering on Hondas way of direct injection too, not only for carbon buildup but also on terms of particulate matter which are massive for gasoline DI and turbo charged cars. The major problem is inhomogeneous combustion.
Since Honda doesn't go the lane that Toyota goes with port+direct injection what is their solution to minimize these troubles? Are they using i-DSI double ignition again?
Mazda is using DI in their latest Skyactiv engines. So far I haven't heard about breakdowns as with Failwagen cars though.
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