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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.

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RolledaNsx
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Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 01:31
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Honda is having alot of problems with its first DCT!

Recall after recall

Mostly from start with 1st gear.It seems a few customers had some fun on steep hills....looks like Honda doesn't have a fix yet but told customers to use the parking brake to help get started like with a Manual.

I think this is another reason America isn't getting the Fit Family Hybrids at the moment,using the Japanese Market to get it right.

Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 01:51
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Yeah, read it on Honda.co.jp website. One of the most complete and thorough explanation of a recall from an automaker. Well, teething problem of new technology, what do you say... As long it's covered in warranty. Too bad though, might put a dent on the sellout number down the road.
BG
Profile for BG
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 05:10
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Full English pdf here explanation here....

http://world.honda.com/news/2014/c140210Recall-Fit-Hybrid-Vezel-Hybrid/pdf/c140210eng.pdf

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 06:18
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I suppose we hemans can always double-declutch if we feel the gear's not engaged when stationary. Or in a Mini, remember to stuff it into first before the vehicle came to a complete rest, where it was nigh-impossible to do so.

They'll have to teach the machine to do likewise.

"Now ve know vy you engineers cry"

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 06:33
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That's humans, BTW!

he-mens don't need girly DCTs...

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 08:19
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Honda is having alot of problems with its first DCT!

Recall after recall

Mostly from start with 1st gear.It seems a few customers had some fun on steep hills....looks like Honda doesn't have a fix yet but told customers to use the parking brake to help get started like with a Manual.

I think this is another reason America isn't getting the Fit Family Hybrids at the moment,using the Japanese Market to get it right.



Interesting. The RLX Sport Hybrid we drove had to be "rebooted" once as the transmission seemed to briefly lose its mind. I had been using the paddles to gear down for a 25mph town speed limit that we were approaching. It never let go of 2nd gear as we left the 25mph zone and then there was a lot of crazy error messages and flashing lights. I pulled over and restarted the car and it was fine after that.

I wonder if it's the same software code base. At least Acura has another 2 months to validate everything and run it through the wringer some more.

Inebriated Snake
Profile for Inebriated Snake
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 08:48
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Even VW the main proprietor of the technology who's probably been at it the longest can't really get it 100% right.

Look on any forum with a Ford(Focus), Dodge(Dart), VW(all), Hyundai(Veloster), even BMW(M3/5), Audi's(S-tronic) and Lamborghini. They are all basically DCTs with some form of "issue".

Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 10:46
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What's the effing deal with these dcts that manufacturers just can't sort? Just drove another Audi that scared the shi out of me once I jerk crawled into traffic and it just stalled for a few seconds - with three lanes of cars speeding towards me, then jerk and the car smoked the types!

I suppose that's why Honda went with the different design for the tlx.
But I always thought the beauty of the hybrid is that the electric motor would allow for cleaner starts.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 10:52
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Well, it probably does all that once the gear's engaged.

Synchro cones are by their nature baulky and I wonder if eventually, they'll all switch to 'crash' gearboxes with sophisticated rev-match software. I understand that's what the heavy truck gearbox manufacturers (like ZF) do.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 11:21
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And for you stock owners,there goes the profit for the year!

And for you car lovers,there goes the R&D money for niche(high-risk) models!

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 11:48
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Nick GravesX wrote:
Well, it probably does all that once the gear's engaged.

Synchro cones are by their nature baulky and I wonder if eventually, they'll all switch to 'crash' gearboxes with sophisticated rev-match software. I understand that's what the heavy truck gearbox manufacturers (like ZF) do.



Moving to dog gears won't really help in the smoothness spectrum. Triple cone synchros with the right synchronization algorithm helps, but the problem is that the computer is still too stupid to anticipate all the scenarios in which a person would drive the car (whereas a torque converter by its nature smooths things out through its slushiness). I think the bigger issue, honestly, is just calibration. DCTs require a lot of cal work to cover all the aforementioned drive scenarios and it's clear that Honda was bitten at least once with it.

FWIW, I drove a VW GTI last week and the DSG is OK, until you had to do starts and stops on uphill sections. Then... dear lord...

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 12:11
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Now you know why the new 8-Speed DCT has a Torque Converter.It solves alot of these problems.

With the Fit Hybrid,Honda thought the Electric Motor was going to fix the low gear problems(stop and starting alot and downshifting at the right time and when stopped, it being in the right gear) of a DCT.No.....you need a code that thinks like a human.

A77X
Profile for A77X
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 12:48
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When progress is not progress. You cannot beat a nice manual. It will never give you a problem and is more efficient, apart from not having near useless overly tall gear ratio options that just cause lugging vibrations just so they can get inflated mpgs in never-exisiting perfect scenarios.

Who gives a monkey's fart that a DCT can change gear faster than any human with a manual. That is not the point. But I am resigned to it.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 12:56
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Generally speaking, a DCT will be more economical than a manual because it can change gear more frequently.

That was even true of the Hobbs Mechamatic (Borgward Hansamatic) in the late 1950s.

But it does seem calibrating the thing not to be caught out is still the problem.

AND why years of experience mean the good ol' slushbox isn't dead yet. ZF 9-speed, anyone?


CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 13:08
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Nick GravesX wrote:
Generally speaking, a DCT will be more economical than a manual because it can change gear more frequently.

That was even true of the Hobbs Mechamatic (Borgward Hansamatic) in the late 1950s.

But it does seem calibrating the thing not to be caught out is still the problem.

AND why years of experience mean the good ol' slushbox isn't dead yet. ZF 9-speed, anyone?




It's got dog gears (two of them)! ;) Test driving a Cherokee, I think it's pretty good on the upshifts, but on the downshift it feels more like a manual in a way... a millisecond pause and then FOUR GEARS DOWN.

Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 16:38
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RolledaNsx wrote:
And for you stock owners,there goes the profit for the year!

And for you car lovers,there goes the R&D money for niche(high-risk) models!



I think you are seriously over estimating the costs of this recall.
Couple of hundred per car max for updating software.

integrator
Profile for integrator
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 16:56
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RolledaNsx wrote:
And for you stock owners,there goes the profit for the year!

And for you car lovers,there goes the R&D money for niche(high-risk) models!


I think those of us hoping for something sporty and under 40k are used to Honda's hybrid program screwing us over.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 19:12
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Fan Koni wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
And for you stock owners,there goes the profit for the year!

And for you car lovers,there goes the R&D money for niche(high-risk) models!



I think you are seriously over estimating the costs of this recall.
Couple of hundred per car max for updating software.



First there is no fix yet,there hoping all they have to do is fix code but when the dealer plugs into the ECU and it showed any of the problem codes the customers gets a new trans!
Also the Fit Hybrid and Vezel Hybrid sales are stopped as 02/10/14! Something like 70% of there sales are hurt!

cksi1372
Profile for cksi1372
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 19:54
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Uh oh, my biggest fear with thinking of buying the new TLX is that Honda/Acura has new transmissions in the car. My family and I have had BAD luck with Honda transmissions...1998 Accord 4cyl fail at 110k $1800 to fix and failed again yr later (repair fail not Honda's fault), 2000 Civic Si synchros failed at 38k luckily replaced under good will, 2001 Civic LX 4 cyl trans failed at 80k miles $2k to fix and still going (kids car), dad's 04 TL trans on its way to an early death at 76k miles and Acura would do nothing so he traded for a Toyota before getting stranded and out $3-4k ish.

If the TLX is a winner and I decide to trade the Bimmer, looks like it will be for the ZF-9, :(

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 21:14
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Fan Koni wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
And for you stock owners,there goes the profit for the year!

And for you car lovers,there goes the R&D money for niche(high-risk) models!



I think you are seriously over estimating the costs of this recall.
Couple of hundred per car max for updating software.



First there is no fix yet,there hoping all they have to do is fix code but when the dealer plugs into the ECU and it showed any of the problem codes the customers gets a new trans!
Also the Fit Hybrid and Vezel Hybrid sales are stopped as 02/10/14! Something like 70% of there sales are hurt!

Well, to me the problem with this recall I just found out after a long weekend, is not the cost of the recall per-se, but the image cost.

If people start fearing Honda Hybrids, that could be devastating for them in Japan. And yet is funny that the problem is always with the all new DCT, and not any of the hybrid drivetrain parts per se (though they are pretty linked). In a way though, it's a nice lesson for them to pay their eagerness to market.
I've said it before, but in the past Honda would always introduce new technology in a gradual fashion, starting with products sold in very limited quantities.
Now they went straight into their highest volume couple.
Hope they learn from it: "fast to market is good", but that "should not come at the expense of reliability".

Still, it's good that they are handling the problem in a very proactive way.
As a consumer I would for sure appreciate that part, despite being pissed off by needing to take my car to the dealer yet again.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2014 22:44
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1st DCT)Honda didn't like DCTs because they suck in stop and go traffic and hills but they changed their minds when a Electric Motor is added to it.Thinking the Electric Motor would act like a Torque Convertor but in Honda's Transverse DCT the electric motor is after the two clutches and seven gears so it does not smooth the torque like a torque convertor.

(2nd DCT)In the TLX a Torque Convertor solves that.

(3rd DCT)In the NSX the Electric Motor is before the two clutches so it acts like a Torque Convertor.

It seems Honda is learning very fast with their new DCTs but it looks like getting that first DCT to the Market so fast and with all their core models(Fit Family) wasn't smart.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-11-2014 01:16
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On a global level, the Fit hybrid is pretty small quantities- just look at the number of vehicles recalled. This is far less damaging to one's image and probably even far less expensive than replacing nearly half a million airbags.
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-11-2014 02:21
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CarPhreakD wrote:
On a global level, the Fit hybrid is pretty small quantities- just look at the number of vehicles recalled. This is far less damaging to one's image and probably even far less expensive than replacing nearly half a million airbags.
My comment was limited to the Japanese market.
If people start fearing Honda Hybrids, that could be devastating for them in Japan.

, where the Fit (+Vezel) Hybrid must right now represent about half of total Honda sales. Most importantly, they are the models that carry on sales momentum and bring most people to the dealers.

Thinking global though, certainly Honda limited the overall damage to some extent by pushing the new tech only at home first. Together with supply issues, that might have been as well some kind of "intentional damage control", since in Japan they are much more flexible than abroad from-design-to-manufacturing, and have an incredibly extensive dealer network that should be able to cope with the trouble in a relatively short period of time.

That said, in the past they would also introduce first in Japan, but on limited numbers. Again, I'm not against Honda's new found "speed to market", just hope that what happened this time is the exception, and not "the new normal". If cars become like software, which is nowadays released plenty of bugs that companies keep fixing after release, it's going to be pretty nasty for everyone.


Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-11-2014 05:03
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Stil not seeing the drama of the recall, Honda just did two and stil sold well there after.
Regarding the new speed to market of their r&d - keep going!
Honda has been resting too long under the excuse of reliability quailtyetc.

They should have the edge on hybrids since yonks now.
I hope Honda r&d isn't slowing the release of the turbos because these things. Keep the pace!

If anything is clear then its the bold releases which saved most makers in the last years. They got the customers and the money.


TSX69
Profile for TSX69
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-11-2014 16:04
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AutoBlog
Jessica Fini, assistant manager of PR for Honda North America, told AutoblogGreen that this recall will not have any impact on US Honda vehicles. For 1 thing, the US Fit has a continuously variable transmission (CVT) instead of a DCT, so the upcoming launch of the new Fit here (the US doesn't get the Fit Hybrid) will not be delayed. Honda's upcoming small SUV in the US (based on the Vezel, but will arrive with a different name) isn't going to launch here until the end of the year, so there is time to fix any problems before launch. She also said that the Acura RLX, despite being a DCT, does not use the same transmission as the Fit Hybrid does, since the Fit transmission is specific to the 1-motor hybrid system and the RLX uses 3 electric motors.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-12-2014 08:05
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And now Honda saved by the recall, as Toyota just announced a recall for 2 million Priuses to fix a software problem...

Guess that swifts the balance in favor of the H, which hopefully will sort out all their software gremlins before they sell 2 million of those...

DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-12-2014 12:32
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CarPhreakD wrote:
On a global level, the Fit hybrid is pretty small quantities- just look at the number of vehicles recalled. This is far less damaging to one's image and probably even far less expensive than replacing nearly half a million airbags.

Rest assured that Honda will recover every single penny, including the handling cost paid to dealers, from the airbag supplier.


DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-12-2014 12:45
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danielgr wrote:
And now Honda saved by the recall, as Toyota just announced a recall for 2 million Priuses to fix a software problem...

Guess that swifts the balance in favor of the H, which hopefully will sort out all their software gremlins before they sell 2 million of those...



Only in your world would a software update to a Toyota have any bearing on a transmission recall in a Honda.

You should make it less obvious sometimes...leave a little to the imagination.

DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-12-2014 13:23
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Fan Koni wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
And for you stock owners,there goes the profit for the year!

And for you car lovers,there goes the R&D money for niche(high-risk) models!



I think you are seriously over estimating the costs of this recall.
Couple of hundred per car max for updating software.



First there is no fix yet,there hoping all they have to do is fix code but when the dealer plugs into the ECU and it showed any of the problem codes the customers gets a new trans!
Also the Fit Hybrid and Vezel Hybrid sales are stopped as 02/10/14! Something like 70% of there sales are hurt!



1. It's a software issue, [DCR: take note of it]
2. only for those that show a history of gears not engaging, Honda would replace a transmission component, not the whole transmission. You would have known this if you read the link above,
3. Honda will start to install new software from Feb 21. So I can't see how you can claim there are 'no' fix,
4. production would be suspended for like 10 days, much less than what happened after the 2011 earth quake and Thai floods
5. stop being a drama queen.


RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Fit and Vezel Hybrid Problems.    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-12-2014 13:44
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DrWhiner wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
Fan Koni wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
And for you stock owners,there goes the profit for the year!

And for you car lovers,there goes the R&D money for niche(high-risk) models!



I think you are seriously over estimating the costs of this recall.
Couple of hundred per car max for updating software.



First there is no fix yet,there hoping all they have to do is fix code but when the dealer plugs into the ECU and it showed any of the problem codes the customers gets a new trans!
Also the Fit Hybrid and Vezel Hybrid sales are stopped as 02/10/14! Something like 70% of there sales are hurt!



1. It's a software issue, [DCR: take note of it]
2. only for those that show a history of gears not engaging, Honda would replace a transmission component, not the whole transmission. You would have known this if you read the link above,
3. Honda will start to install new software from Feb 21. So I can't see how you can claim there are 'no' fix,
4. production would be suspended for like 10 days, much less than what happened after the 2011 earth quake and Thai floods
5. stop being a drama queen.




DrWHO????

This is the third recall for the same thing in the last 6 months and the ECU Upgrade that they did at each recall hasn't worked.That tells you alot.This is a hopeful fix at the moment,they need more time to understand the problem and make a lasting fix.This new software is just dumbing down the trans until they have the final software ready.

And it is cheaper to replace the whole trans than take it apart and replace parts.That is the major reason why they stopped the Fit/Vezel line because the new trans are going to the dealers instead to the line.


 
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