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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Hondas downward trend, when?

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MarkR
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Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2013 13:59
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When did you truly sense the crappification and started to be worried about Honda future?

I have two-three memories,about 2003 when some local Honda people where hyping what was to come, and it never came...it got worse in 2008-2009 I think when I someone on TOV were defending the Element as a good car (not claiming is not a good car, it's just 0 excitement) AND there was an news blurp of of Honda had develiped a walkway for old dogs to get into the Element and the third whas when someone RLHal... was defending the RLX as a competitive car....

So the downward slide began for me 2003, I was scared for 5years and then the slide really got some speed...Honda was a Afganistan/Kongo/Nicaragua focused company (you know what, maybe they are market leaders there, I have no insight...)

...but the stock is doing Ok, so maybe the will try again (but please let's not defend current products).


superchg2
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Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2013 14:14
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It seems like they have been attempting to ease up on the crappification lately and the 2013 Civic is evidence of this.
VTECyo!
Profile for VTECyo!
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2013 18:32
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MarkR wrote:
When did you truly sense the crappification and started to be worried about Honda future?

I have two-three memories,about 2003 when some local Honda people where hyping what was to come, and it never came...it got worse in 2008-2009 I think when I someone on TOV were defending the Element as a good car (not claiming is not a good car, it's just 0 excitement) AND there was an news blurp of of Honda had develiped a walkway for old dogs to get into the Element and the third whas when someone RLHal... was defending the RLX as a competitive car....

So the downward slide began for me 2003, I was scared for 5years and then the slide really got some speed...Honda was a Afganistan/Kongo/Nicaragua focused company (you know what, maybe they are market leaders there, I have no insight...)

...but the stock is doing Ok, so maybe the will try again (but please let's not defend current products).




There are plenty of current products I'm very ready to defend. And a number I've even bought...Accord (own one), Accord Hybrid, Civic, Odyssey (own one), Pilot, Fit, MDX, RDX

Then again there are a number I would never claim to love...



MalcolmR
Profile for MalcolmR
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2013 18:43
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.
For me it was when Honda departed from being led by engineering and science: instead, they chose to hitch a ride on media-driven public perception about HUMAN CO2. That's nonsense yet instead of citing fuel efficiency as a motive they climbed on board the CO2 crap.

Hence, crappification.

This was exemplified by Honda's image-driven F1 car that was a complete disaster and embarrassment.

Image lacks the substance of engineering.

Once one abandons or dilutes fundamental attributes of corporate philosophy, people fall for anything.

Many of us loved Honda because it did what was right by the objective numbers, not the controllers of spin.

Honda sold its soul and paid the price.

Here's hoping Honda has learned.

And maybe now that people are awakening to the climate scam, Honda can let go and get back to fuel-efficiency, responsible use of Earth's resources and genuine environmental challenges.

Malcolm


superchg2
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Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2013 20:07
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The brand new Accord Hybrid is definitely not indicative of a downward trend, and may well be the best hybrid available.


Fan Koni
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Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2013 20:36
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superchg2 wrote:
The brand new Accord Hybrid is definitely not indicative of a downward trend, and may well be the best hybrid available.



Yeah I think Honda has turned the wheel around internally - but it will take a while until all cars are updated.

All volume cars coming out seem to have caught all the attention.
The low volumes didn't yet.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2013 22:13
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Fan Koni wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
The brand new Accord Hybrid is definitely not indicative of a downward trend, and may well be the best hybrid available.



Yeah I think Honda has turned the wheel around internally - but it will take a while until all cars are updated.

All volume cars coming out seem to have caught all the attention.
The low volumes didn't yet.


According to our man Rolled, there are going to be some pretty tasty, low volume turbo cars coming out pretty soon.


MalcolmR
Profile for MalcolmR
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-13-2013 05:10
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superchg2 wrote:
The brand new Accord Hybrid is definitely not indicative of a downward trend, and may well be the best hybrid available.



.
Briefly caught my first glimpse of the new Accord on Aussie roads this morning.

Has plenty of presence. Looks more like a luxury car. And given Honda's build quality that's appropriate.

Back to engineers producing brilliant products. Back to Honda. I hope you're correct superchg2.

Malcolm


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-13-2013 08:53
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MalcolmR wrote:
.
For me it was when Honda departed from being led by engineering and science: instead, they chose to hitch a ride on media-driven public perception about HUMAN CO2. That's nonsense yet instead of citing fuel efficiency as a motive they climbed on board the CO2 crap.

Hence, crappification.

This was exemplified by Honda's image-driven F1 car that was a complete disaster and embarrassment.

Image lacks the substance of engineering.

Once one abandons or dilutes fundamental attributes of corporate philosophy, people fall for anything.

Many of us loved Honda because it did what was right by the objective numbers, not the controllers of spin.

Honda sold its soul and paid the price.

Here's hoping Honda has learned.

And maybe now that people are awakening to the climate scam, Honda can let go and get back to fuel-efficiency, responsible use of Earth's resources and genuine environmental challenges.

Malcolm




Briefly caught my first glimpse of the new Accord on Aussie roads this morning.

Has plenty of presence. Looks more like a luxury car. And given Honda's build quality that's appropriate.

Back to engineers producing brilliant products. Back to Honda. I hope you're correct superchg2.

Malcolm





^These^

I'd actually be interested in seeing the new Accord.

The CO^2 pushers are trying even harder with their Gebbes-esque lies, which I hope is a sign of increasing desperation. As with the 'healthy eating' BS, there need to be a few heads on poles. Lots, in fact...

When the EU Civic became blander and more mass-market than the EK (which Audi later plagiarised) ought to have been my first clue that Honda was going wrong. Something to do with them being confused between Honda & Acura was part of the problem and the 'too little, too late' HSC was a manifestation. I'm not sure their heart was ever in the V8/V10 cars and Lehman was the perfect excuse.

Unfortunately, they then realised they had NFI by then as to what to do next.

integrator
Profile for integrator
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-13-2013 09:55
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Is it true there is still a battle between Honda Japan and Honda Europe for control.... and between the engineers and management ?
NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-13-2013 10:00
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superchg2 wrote:
Fan Koni wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
The brand new Accord Hybrid is definitely not indicative of a downward trend, and may well be the best hybrid available.



Yeah I think Honda has turned the wheel around internally - but it will take a while until all cars are updated.

All volume cars coming out seem to have caught all the attention.
The low volumes didn't yet.


According to our man Rolled, there are going to be some pretty tasty, low volume turbo cars coming out pretty soon.



I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to learn more about Rolled's historic level of accuracy...

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-13-2013 10:18
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I'd say from an engineering perspective Honda abandoned it's soul with the '94 1/2 Accord V6 sedan. It was the obvious grab for power which went against the grain of all that was Honda up to that point. And I do remember stopping by my Honda dealer the evening the first Passport arrived on the lot. For some of us, the Passport and Odyssey were sold thru the motorcycle dealerships just like the Integra was sold by Acura.

From the view of what it takes to be a world leading, trend setting automobile company I'd say Honda is still in the wilderness and may always be so. The last person you want "designing" cars is an engineer. Engineers are tasked with designing systems, components, mechanisms, drivetrains. Product planners, marketing gurus, and automotive styling designers pick the products to make, give them character, and transform the ideas into metal and plastic. The 356 and original 911 were designed and styled by engineers; simple is beautiful. The current 911 has evolved beyond anything in terms of style that any engineer could ever develop. The concept of the FR-S/BRZ may have been developed by an engineer but the shape of the headlamps, the proportions of the profile were perfected by styling designers. That is why the limousine 4-door version is a bad idea. As long as engineers make the final decisions on the styling of Honda cars and trucks there will be the streamlined version of the 8th gen Accord offered as the 9th gen and considered nice (I do like it a lot), and we'll have Crosstours, Acura can-opener grills, Ridgeline profiles, Insights, the list goes on. I'm convinced that if any us could ask Honda why the '06 Civic was such a success, why the Element worked, why people still love the older Civics, why the Legend was such a cool car, why people still equate the styling of the NSX with Ferrari the engineers at Honda couldn't give solid answers.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-13-2013 12:28
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NealX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Fan Koni wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
The brand new Accord Hybrid is definitely not indicative of a downward trend, and may well be the best hybrid available.



Yeah I think Honda has turned the wheel around internally - but it will take a while until all cars are updated.

All volume cars coming out seem to have caught all the attention.
The low volumes didn't yet.


According to our man Rolled, there are going to be some pretty tasty, low volume turbo cars coming out pretty soon.



I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to learn more about Rolled's historic level of accuracy...


Since Rolled rolled on to the scene in January 2012, I don't believe that any of his predicted future cars (starting with the NSX) have actually materialized in the U.S.

But it's kind of interesting to hear about all these cool cars that might just make it to a Honda or Acura dealer in the future, especially since the wildest thing Honda has to offer us right now is the semi-neutered Si.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-13-2013 15:35
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For me the signs were there as far back as the EP3 SI in the US. But like many sick organisms, Honda really rallied with the FG2 Si and I thought the EP3 was just an anamoly. But it really hit home when I learned that both the NSX and S2000 were done with no plans for successors. The. I knew they were in a major downward spiral.

SC

BG
Profile for BG
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2013 05:01
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integrator wrote:
Is it true there is still a battle between Honda Japan and Honda Europe for control.... and between the engineers and management ?


Japan will always be the leading force, Europe gets a say on it's models for it's market, but even then I've heard Europe cried out to Honda for the Brio to be released over here, but Honda JP said no, great move Honda!!

The engineers v management thing by all accounts is an ongoing thing, nothing new there.

Inebriated Snake
Profile for Inebriated Snake
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2013 07:15
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Honda's bipolar. They are either really ON or OFF.

How the next NSX will turn out is up in the air in peoples minds because we should be in the 3rd gen by now. Not wondering if they still got it.

NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2013 18:12
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notyper wrote:
For me the signs were there as far back as the EP3 SI in the US. But like many sick organisms, Honda really rallied with the FG2 Si and I thought the EP3 was just an anamoly. But it really hit home when I learned that both the NSX and S2000 were done with no plans for successors. The. I knew they were in a major downward spiral.

SC


I believe it all started with "Jennifer."

330R
Profile for 330R
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2013 21:52
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MarkR wrote:
When did you truly sense the crappification and started to be worried about Honda future?


No SiR for the 4th gen Civic/CR-X or 5th gen Civic (del Sol had B16A-powered VTEC version, though). I can understand the 4th gen, though, since the Integra didn't get the B17A until 1992.

The Passport and SLX. I didn't think much about it at the time, but this just smacks of American Honda greed, thinking back on it. They'd rather sell inferior products that aren't Hondas, just to get a piece of the SUV pie.

Legend -> 3.5 RL. Second-gen Legend went for 6 years. People were anticipating a move to RWD and possible V8 engine. The beginning of the end of real names. Worrisome "logic" from the "marketing" team: instead of working to make Acura stronger and more recognizable with better products, make the models less recognizable with Alphabits names.

The 6th generation Civic was developed to have fewer parts (take some cost out). I remember this bothering me the moment I read it. Japan was going through a recession, so there was hope this would be a temporary measure.

The un-Japanese-ness of the 6th gen Accord. The instrument cluster from Ford.

No EK9 Civic Type-R.

The Honda Stream platform for the DC5 Integra/RSX and EP3 Civic. Bad steering geometry. MacPherson struts. Worrisome. Letting the 3rd gen Integra run for 8 years.

The Jennifer Civic.

Murmurs that Honda is shifting from an engineering-based company to a marketing-based company. Some years later after this was first hinted on TOV, the changes (the regression) going on inside were intimated by Shigeru Uehara at the S2000 Homecoming in Torrance IIRC the year before or the year of his retirement from Honda. In essence, a place for someone like him at Honda - LPL of the NSX, father of the S2000 and DC2 Integra Type R - was no longer needed.

The overdue HSC.

No DC5 Integra Type-R. I was told by someone who spoke with an Acura associate at the time that if the A-Spec package had sold really well then Acura might have brought the DC5R (this failed thinking would be repeated later with the Mugen Si -> CTR)

No EP3 Civic Type-R.

Firing Dave Richards and replacing him with Nick Fry.

Firing Geoff Willis and replacing him with Shuhei Nakamoto.

John Mendel.

Jeff Conrad.

American design studios. Take all that money and shovel it into Pininfarina.

Everything past that point is recent enough to still taste the bile. No need to mention it yet again.






330R
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Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2013 21:59
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Sorry, I forgot to say that all those items I brought up were just little fragments I can rattle off. But to answer the OP's question directly, I guess the first time I was worried about WTF Honda was doing came with the 7th gen Civic and the EP3. Looking back though. At that moment in time, the Honda & Acura line was really starting to feel Americanized and a dumbing down was showing. Then the great TSX and 3rd gen TL (American, but sexy) arrived.
330R
Profile for 330R
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2013 22:30
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Ack. Geoff Willis quit after Nakamoto was appointed "lead" technical director. My brain is shot. Don't get old, people.
Jesse
Profile for Jesse
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-15-2013 03:09
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For me their decline was when they went too far with the so-called green revolution.

I've already seen more than a couple of Oz Accords, (to be more specific: gray, white, and champagne (or is it gold?)). They look very upscale-looking, dare I say better-looking than the current 5-series? I seriously do not understand reviewers who say it looks bland. I reckon they like that awful Sonata.

Nick GravesX
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Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-15-2013 06:19
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I thought that about the Accord (photos) but thought I must be getting old, or something.

I don't mind enviro-babble per se (their Diseasel engine ad was very amusing) but by nailing their flag to the C0^2 fraud, once the fraudsters are properly exposed, ergo Honda will be counted as part of the conspiracy.

When people start gobshiteing about C0^2 when they really mean energy conservation, it really boils my piss. I detest euphemism/doublespeak etc.

GoFaster
Profile for GoFaster
Re: Hondas downward trend, when?    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-15-2013 09:07
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I agree about the CO2 vs pollution nonsense and Honda wanting to #1 in green as the reason for no more fun cars. Especially since they came up short and watched Toyota take all the sales for a decade.

Worst decision is not having a RWD platform for everything as big as the TSX. Imagine the battles of a Honda RWD sports sedan with ATS, 3 Series, IS, Q whatever they are going with now. Honda is left completely out of the biggest battle ground in the car world. Its like not having a 600 cc sportbike. Could anyone want anything more than a RWD Accord?

The saddest decision in Honda history is dropping the S2000 instead of making it even better. One of the great cars and values ever. Please don't make another Del Sol and make me read the cheering section on TOV tell me how great it is.



 
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