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  TOV News > Latest inverview with Mr. Ito, Honda's CEO > > Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation.

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owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-16-2013 19:20
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
Power Of Dreams wrote:
Honda's localization plans are just stupid. For 2012, they created the Civic sedan for North America that nobody wanted and Bagpuss for Europe that nobody wanted. I have no idea why the Civic can't be something like the TSX where they have a basic variant sold worldwide available in different body styles. Every other car company sells their small car around the world basically unchanged. The biggest insult was the 2008-era Accord, which didn't even feel like a Honda at all along with pointless exercises in delivering vehicles they "thought" Americans would want such as the Ridgeline and ZDX.

The Fit was successful despite its lack of localization.


Based on the sales numbers, the 2012 Civic did very well. I think it's untrue that this was a car that "nobody wanted". It was closer to a Corolla than it should have been, but that was because Honda thought that the economy was going to Great Depression levels of hell, and they wanted a cheap car that would still be a good commuter vehicle. The 2008-era 8G Accord was similarly successful. I went back and checked March, April, and June 2008 sales here on vtec.net, and it sold north of 30k units each month. Nearly 40k units in June '08. I remember that most reviewers liked the handling. The only big issue (literally) was the size of the car, which made it harder to park and reduced its fuel economy.

If you think localization is a bad idea, consider what has happened with the Honda Insight. It was completely inappropriate for USDM sale (I knew it was toast as soon as I saw the ridiculously cramped rear bench and low roofline), and the sales figures reflect that. It was the wrong car for the market.

Stuff like the ZDX and Crosstour didn't fail because of localization. They failed because they put form over function. If the Crosstour had been a straight-up heavy wagon like the Outback (with its large, conveniently shaped cargo area) rather than a weird sloped hatch with giant shock towers in the rear, it would have been compelling. Crosstour's failure was a case of stupid product planning.




Atomic, as you well know, sales numbers are not the whole picture. Recall the numerous threads that put the 2012 Civic on top of the heap in terms of sales incentives, often outpacing even the incentive leading domestic brands. The Civic sold in droves, but the harsh reality is that it was not because of quality. Not to say a 2012 Civic is a POS that will not last long term, but it had nothing of the Honda DNA that typically sold cars for retail vs with a pile of cash on the hood.

Forward to the 2013 Civic which is selling in nearly identical volume, but without the profit sucking incentives that were required to move the Civic last year. It is absolute proof positive that the 2012 was a "dud." The fact that updates as simple as some interior upgrades, some additional sound deadening and retuning made the car much better to drive/drive in is a pretty clear indicator that while the 2012 Civic had good bones, it was not what Honda consumers expected from a Honda purchase. Furthermore, the reduction in incentives only helps Honda AND the consumer more by protecting profit margins and resale values down the road.

Cars like the ZDX and Crosstour didn't sell because they were an answer to a question nobody asked. Honda probably would have increased volume more by either selling a straight up Accord wagon, or even adding a wagon version of the Civic vs the Crosstour. Add in that ugly, ugly styling, and it just wasn't bound to sell. Of course there was a fair contingent of people on this board that got laughed off by guys like Daniel because we were short-sighted. Honda certainly isn't laughing all the way to the bank over it.

TLOwner
Profile for TLOwner
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2013 05:22
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Hondarulez wrote:
Ponyboy wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
Definitely. As another poster said, Acura right now is relying on RDX and MDX. It's amazing how these two models are doing. It would go a long way if the ILX and TLX can achieve the same level of success.


While the ILX is needs some obvious, and very doable, revisions, the TL w/ SH-AWD is a really good driver. If people can just get past the beak, they'd would really enjoy it. I, too, am hoping that the ILX is revised (jeez, just the powertrain options would help) and the TLX has the same level of success.




I agree, the 4G TL is a decent car. The facelifted version is even better with 6AT. I also think the styling on the facelifted version is quite good.



quite good ? really? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

what planet are you coming from ?
it is a fucking POS . It has always been a fucking POS since day1

if you get paid to spread the good words I understand but please don't even try to minimize the ugliness. Hopefully, Acura will figure it out soon or Acura will die.





Great_Tubimi
Profile for Great_Tubimi
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2013 15:34
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I would like to restate my belief that this "next NSX" will most certainly be cancelled as well. Not sure on the excuse they'll use yet.

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2013 18:45
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TLOwner wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
Ponyboy wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
Definitely. As another poster said, Acura right now is relying on RDX and MDX. It's amazing how these two models are doing. It would go a long way if the ILX and TLX can achieve the same level of success.


While the ILX is needs some obvious, and very doable, revisions, the TL w/ SH-AWD is a really good driver. If people can just get past the beak, they'd would really enjoy it. I, too, am hoping that the ILX is revised (jeez, just the powertrain options would help) and the TLX has the same level of success.




I agree, the 4G TL is a decent car. The facelifted version is even better with 6AT. I also think the styling on the facelifted version is quite good.



quite good ? really? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

what planet are you coming from ?
it is a fucking POS . It has always been a fucking POS since day1

if you get paid to spread the good words I understand but please don't even try to minimize the ugliness. Hopefully, Acura will figure it out soon or Acura will die.





Let's be a little bit more respectful to each other, shall we? There's really no need to ask if someone is from another planet or accusing someone that he's getting paid by Acura.

Just sharing my honest opinion, I really think the facelifted 4G TL is acceptable in terms of styling. The 2009-2011 model IMO has an awkward grille and the rear is weird as well. But the 2012+ design works for me. That's all I'm saying. I'm not gonna make everyone think the same because that's pointless.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2013 21:59
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TLOwner wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
Ponyboy wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
Definitely. As another poster said, Acura right now is relying on RDX and MDX. It's amazing how these two models are doing. It would go a long way if the ILX and TLX can achieve the same level of success.


While the ILX is needs some obvious, and very doable, revisions, the TL w/ SH-AWD is a really good driver. If people can just get past the beak, they'd would really enjoy it. I, too, am hoping that the ILX is revised (jeez, just the powertrain options would help) and the TLX has the same level of success.




I agree, the 4G TL is a decent car. The facelifted version is even better with 6AT. I also think the styling on the facelifted version is quite good.



quite good ? really? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

what planet are you coming from ?
it is a fucking POS . It has always been a fucking POS since day1

if you get paid to spread the good words I understand but please don't even try to minimize the ugliness. Hopefully, Acura will figure it out soon or Acura will die.







Other than the slightly odd proportioning, I rather like the MMC 4th gen TL as well.

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2013 13:15
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Indeed, looking at the TOV Poll back in 2011 when the facelifted 2012 came out, the feedback was mostly positive around the forum:

http://www.vtec.net/polls/results?poll_id=963227

The TL has been refreshed for the 2012 model year. With the various styling revisions and other enhancements, what are your feelings concerning the 2012 TL?

Positive: 47%
Very Positive: 22%
Neutral: 19%
Negative: 9%
Very Negative: 3%



Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2013 14:02
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to each its own, I think the 09-11 look is more aggressive and hence prefer it.
TLOwner
Profile for TLOwner
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2013 15:54
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Look at the numbers. Thousands are not buying 4G TL. Why ? simply bcuz it sucks from the exteriors to everything else. It seems like 10 different designers got together on a Monday after an extremely "fun" weekend and came up with the 4G design. Of course, Sales and Marketing signed off as always.

Customers and potential customers have spoken loud and clear. Unless Acura changes course, 5G TL or TLX or whatever they want to call it, will fail again.

If Acura is asking customers to put down extra 10-15k on Accord on steroids, the steroids better be real good, designer steroids kind. The normal steroids won't do.

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2013 17:36
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TLOwner wrote:
Look at the numbers. Thousands are not buying 4G TL. Why ? simply bcuz it sucks from the exteriors to everything else. It seems like 10 different designers got together on a Monday after an extremely "fun" weekend and came up with the 4G design. Of course, Sales and Marketing signed off as always.

Customers and potential customers have spoken loud and clear. Unless Acura changes course, 5G TL or TLX or whatever they want to call it, will fail again.

If Acura is asking customers to put down extra 10-15k on Accord on steroids, the steroids better be real good, designer steroids kind. The normal steroids won't do.



To be fair, the 3G TL when it was entering the end of its life was lagging in sales too. Recession, old powertrain, and controversial styling just made things worse for the 4G TL. The 3G TL was one of the most powerful and is the jack of all trades back in 2004-2005 in the segment. It was one of the best when it comes to performance, handling, ride comfort, size, features, reliability, styling, and price. The 4G TL lost the advantages in performance, styling, size, and arguably price.

However, the 2012 changes were quite extensive. The 6AT helps close the performance gap, its styling is no longer controversial, and additional features have been added. For about $40k, I don't think it really sucks.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2013 19:27
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TLOwner wrote:
Look at the numbers. Thousands are not buying 4G TL. Why ? simply bcuz it sucks from the exteriors to everything else. It seems like 10 different designers got together on a Monday after an extremely "fun" weekend and came up with the 4G design. Of course, Sales and Marketing signed off as always.

Customers and potential customers have spoken loud and clear. Unless Acura changes course, 5G TL or TLX or whatever they want to call it, will fail again.

If Acura is asking customers to put down extra 10-15k on Accord on steroids, the steroids better be real good, designer steroids kind. The normal steroids won't do.



The current TL is good and competitive, the interior is very nice and the exterior has some really good angles but a few bad ones too. There is more competition then ever and the TL is at the end of its life cycle. It should have been sold with the 6 speed auto from the start and they should have toned down the beak but overall the design in growing on me and owners seem to really like them.

I don't know what you are talking about saying the current TL sucks or is a POS, it is still one of the best buys in its segment and does just about everything very well.

Acura does need to hit a home run with the next TL and from what I am seeing I am worried especially especially if it is going to have a 4cyl hybrid from the accord and their new interior designs which don't look very good, the dual touchscreen is annoying and more difficult to use then just having buttons and switches.

I do hope Acura and Ito sees this thread and how angered and disappointed people are from cancelling the ASC, V10, rwd RL, S2000 replacement, and V8.

TLOwner
Profile for TLOwner
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2013 21:07
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lexusgs wrote:
TLOwner wrote:
Look at the numbers. Thousands are not buying 4G TL. Why ? simply bcuz it sucks from the exteriors to everything else. It seems like 10 different designers got together on a Monday after an extremely "fun" weekend and came up with the 4G design. Of course, Sales and Marketing signed off as always.

Customers and potential customers have spoken loud and clear. Unless Acura changes course, 5G TL or TLX or whatever they want to call it, will fail again.

If Acura is asking customers to put down extra 10-15k on Accord on steroids, the steroids better be real good, designer steroids kind. The normal steroids won't do.



The current TL is good and competitive, the interior is very nice and the exterior has some really good angles but a few bad ones too. There is more competition then ever and the TL is at the end of its life cycle. It should have been sold with the 6 speed auto from the start and they should have toned down the beak but overall the design in growing on me and owners seem to really like them.

I don't know what you are talking about saying the current TL sucks or is a POS, it is still one of the best buys in its segment and does just about everything very well.

Acura does need to hit a home run with the next TL and from what I am seeing I am worried especially especially if it is going to have a 4cyl hybrid from the accord and their new interior designs which don't look very good, the dual touchscreen is annoying and more difficult to use then just having buttons and switches.

I do hope Acura and Ito sees this thread and how angered and disappointed people are from cancelling the ASC, V10, rwd RL, S2000 replacement, and V8.



competitive with what ? selling 2k or so a month is competitive?
do you know what it costs today? When I bought my 3G TL, it was 32K and that was a very competitive price.

As I said, Acura don't seem to want to listen and I am not the lone voice the wilderness. More than a few have spoken by not buying the POS called 4G TL.

It as fugly design from start til now. The beak is one stupid design but the overall design is fugly, extremely fugly. It looks terrible from the rear, side and everything else. It is like they got 10 different ideas from 10 drunk designers and duck tape the whole thing.

No current 3G TL owners that I know of will ever buy another TL unless some major changes are made. We see the current TL at work next to mine and people just LOL. They often wonder : what in the fuck happened?


sugaki
Profile for sugaki
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-19-2013 14:16
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TLOwner wrote:
quite good ? really? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

what planet are you coming from ?
it is a fucking POS . It has always been a fucking POS since day1



The 4th-gen TL is actuallly a really great car (and I'm def considered one of the "haters" on this board). SH-AWD makes it real fun to toss around.

BUT the problem with the 4G is the styling sucks--or at best, meh. The MMC helped, but it's nowhere near as stylish as the 3rd gen. They destroyed the aesthetics of the TL, but the car underneath is actually very enjoyable.


Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-19-2013 19:59
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TLOwner, it's obvious that you just really dislike the 4G TL, and as such, cannot see the merits of that car.

I think it's a good idea to be a bit more open-minded and actually read what others are saying about the car though. Just because you think it sucks, or your 3G TL friends think it sucks, it doesn't mean everyone thinks the 4G TL sucks. Case in point, currently in this debate, you've got me, Sugaki, and lexusgs who all feel the facelifted 4G TL deserves more credit than you are giving it. That does not mean it's the best in the segment.

Given the age of the 4G TL, which is in its 5th and pretty much the final year of production, and its bad start to life, 2-3k/month is not all that bad. One of the main issues is that other than the 6AT, a few new gadgets, and SH-AWD, the 4G isn't much of an improvement over the excellent 3G TL. On the other hand, the competition over the past 8 years have gotten much better. The IS, CTS all went from average to really good. The most powerful 3 series (other than M3) went from 225hp to over 300hp. The C Class, G, and A4 all got improved dramatically.


Chris David
Profile for Chris David
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2013 11:06
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Hondarulez wrote:


I think it's a good idea to be a bit more open-minded and actually read what others are saying about the car though. Just because you think it sucks, or your 3G TL friends think it sucks...

Given the age of the 4G TL, which is in its 5th and pretty much the final year of production, and its bad start to life, 2-3k/month is not all that bad.....




Objectively speaking, the evidence suggest that many people think the current TL "sucks". Sales have been poor since introduction. The 31% sales drop from the last year of the 3rd to the 1st year of the 4th gen is pretty dramatic:

1999 56,566
2000 67,033
2001 69,484
2002 60,764
2003 56,770
2004 77,895 (3rd gen intro)
2005 78,218
2006 71,348
2007 58,545
2008 48,766
2009 33,620 (4th gen intro)
2010 34,049
2011 31,237
2012 33,572

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2013 12:54
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Chris David wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:


I think it's a good idea to be a bit more open-minded and actually read what others are saying about the car though. Just because you think it sucks, or your 3G TL friends think it sucks...

Given the age of the 4G TL, which is in its 5th and pretty much the final year of production, and its bad start to life, 2-3k/month is not all that bad.....




Objectively speaking, the evidence suggest that many people think the current TL "sucks". Sales have been poor since introduction. The 31% sales drop from the last year of the 3rd to the 1st year of the 4th gen is pretty dramatic:

1999 56,566
2000 67,033
2001 69,484
2002 60,764
2003 56,770
2004 77,895 (3rd gen intro)
2005 78,218
2006 71,348
2007 58,545
2008 48,766
2009 33,620 (4th gen intro)
2010 34,049
2011 31,237
2012 33,572



I know where you are coming from. But objectively speaking, we also need to consider the fact that the 2009 TL came out when the economy tanked.

This is not to say the 4G TL tanked by 31% just because of the economy, but that is certainly a contributing factor, along with the reasons mentioned before (ie. not much improvement mechanically vs the 3G other than SH-AWD trim, controversial styling, outdated tranny, newer & better competitors).

JMU R1
Profile for JMU R1
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2013 13:47
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lexusgs wrote:

I do hope Acura and Ito sees this thread and how angered and disappointed people are from cancelling the ASC, V10, rwd RL, S2000 replacement, and V8.


To be clear, I'm not all that mad about cancelling the ASC. The upcoming NSX is far more interesting and true to the idea of the original NSX than the ASC ever was.

I'm most disappointed about the cancellation of the S2000 replacement and the RWD Acura platform. I could stomach losing the V8 as long as we got the RWD platform.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2013 11:53
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JMU R1 wrote:
lexusgs wrote:

I do hope Acura and Ito sees this thread and how angered and disappointed people are from cancelling the ASC, V10, rwd RL, S2000 replacement, and V8.


To be clear, I'm not all that mad about cancelling the ASC. The upcoming NSX is far more interesting and true to the idea of the original NSX than the ASC ever was.

I'm most disappointed about the cancellation of the S2000 replacement and the RWD Acura platform. I could stomach losing the V8 as long as we got the RWD platform.



They most likely would have done both the ASC coming out first and later a mid engined NSX if their plans to go higher end went through. The ASC would have been a low production halo model especially with the bad economy at the time mainly to show what they could do with a V10 and they could compete in that segment. The ASC was never the "next NSX", it was their new type of high performance sports car not related to the NSX, just like the S2000 was. After a few years they would be under pressure for a true mid engined NSX like the original and would most likely build that too.

I could see the ASC eventually morphing into a less expensive GT/coupe type car with a V8 or V6.

Yes, the rwd platform was absolutely the most essential for Acura and to not go with it is puzzling, they still have a bunch of glaring issues with not having a rwd platform and their current or future strategy is not going to make that go away. A V8 would have been important to have as an option and to give them credibility but the rwd platform was far more important. The S2000 and something rwd based on it for Acura would have been very important too, to just let the S2000 die when it sold beyond expectations and could have developed a legacy was a poor decision. Not offering SH-AWD in the current RLX just shows Ito has no clue what he is doing and is bad for Acura.

When Ito leaves which is hopefully soon hopefully the next CEO has enough brains to dust off that rwd platform and other great cars cancelled and get back to work on them.

brunt954
Profile for brunt954
Re: V8 RWD Platform and V10 NSX cancellation. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-30-2013 10:04
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I read the interview, and the whole thread, but SC nailed my response on the first page. Couldn't have said it better.

notyper wrote:
starbai wrote:

"When I became CEO, there were a V8 RWD platform, and a V10 NSX on its last development phase. All of them wonderful cars. So when we decided to cancel all those programs one by one, the reaction of the R&D department was very violent, they were really angry, enough to say to me: "Don't dare show up here in the labs!"." ???

screw this guy.

also screw who ever keeps making the decision to keep Acura's beak around.



Yeah, he acts like its a badge of honor to have pissed off the R&D guys to that extent.

Fuck you Ito.

As long as he's in charge, Honda will never attain its potential.

Sounds like he has a bit of a problem with the US market too. Sucks to hate the market that made you what you are. Asshole.

SC





 
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