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TOV Forums > Professional Motorsports > > Re: Penske NOT running Sports cars in 2014

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RolledaNsx
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New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-10-2013 00:06
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There was a rumor that started at Sebring this March(Penske had signed with Porsche to run their new P1 Coupe) and by last weeks race at Lime Rock the rumor won't go away but is getting stronger(being confirmed by insiders) and wilder!!!!

A new P1 Series in America starting in 2015,most likely run the same weekend as Indycar backed by four auto manufactures!

With a race before the INDY 500 on the road course(INDY 24HR?) to start the fun at the brickyard!

Porsche(Penske)
Honda(Ganassi)
Audi(???)
Toyota(?????)

Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-10-2013 14:35
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RolledaNsx wrote:
There was a rumor that started at Sebring this March(Penske had signed with Porsche to run their new P1 Coupe) and by last weeks race at Lime Rock the rumor won't go away but is getting stronger(being confirmed by insiders) and wilder!!!!

A new P1 Series in America starting in 2015,most likely run the same weekend as Indycar backed by four auto manufactures!

With a race before the INDY 500 on the road course(INDY 24HR?) to start the fun at the brickyard!

Porsche(Penske)
Honda(Ganassi)
Audi(???)
Toyota(?????)



Rolled,

While I enjoy your posts and have participated eagerly in some of your threads, I believe that a reality check has to be given to this one.

First, I assume that you read this elsewhere online, presumably Daily Sportscar.

Second, I don't know of anyone in the USA who thinks that a separate series has any chance of turning a wheel. The minute such an endeavor is announced, NASCAR will kill it, just like ALMS, by whatever means necessary.

Third, any such series would need to be supported by some kind of existing series, like Indycar, PWC or Trans-Am. None of those have the financial muscle necessary to get something like this off the ground.

Fourth, I am of the opinion that what's really going on is that a small group of people (possibly including HPD) is trying to get USCR to reconsider its decision to drop LMP1 from the new series. I have heard that there are some people trying to talk USCR into dropping LMP2 and agreeing to run LMP1 instead for 2014. To do that, all you would need is for HPD to agree to replace the LMP2 cars and engines that LEvel 5 and ESM have with LMP1 equivalents. Then all the DP/LMP1 equivalent arguments go away.

Fifth, if there is so much interest in P1 in the US, why are there only two cars running in the category in the ALMS for the last several years?

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-10-2013 15:10
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Bullwinkle,

1)The people behind this don't want to run USCR under Nascar control and some are just getting tired of USCR dragging their feet on the LMP2/DP merge and schedule.
And if its run with Indycar and run by Indycar,NASCAR will find it hard to kill it.

2)The manufactures don't what to run their sportscars under Nascar control either(your doing to good so we will take away horsepower,aero and add a ton of weight to your car for the next race)!

3)Indycar is pushing this to add value to their race weekend and to add another race to the brickyard(most likely to start of the month of May)and if they add lights with that $600 million gift from the state,it could be a 12-24hr race.

They was told to find another race to add to the brickyard to make it more profitable.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-10-2013 15:21
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4)And they're is group who what USCR to drop LMP2 and replace it with LMP1.Very easy to switch the HPD P2 to P1.

But there are two problems with that!

a)the DP owners want to be top dogs and will not allow it to happen.

b)The open-top LMP1 they want to use next year is not allowed to race next year at Le Mans!

Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-10-2013 20:42
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First, You will be hard pressed to find someone who is less enamored of all things NASCAR than I am. But some things have to be viewed in the cold light of business and money.


RolledaNsx wrote:
Bullwinkle,

1)The people behind this don't want to run USCR under Nascar control and some are just getting tired of USCR dragging their feet on the LMP2/DP merge and schedule.
And if its run with Indycar and run by Indycar,NASCAR will find it hard to kill it.


No question that the USCR has taken way too long on rules. I would like to know what the real holdup is, but I don't.

That brings us to Indycar. If Indycar was interested in getting into the sports car business, they should have bought the ALMS when they had the chance. Nothing has really changed at the top of Indycar. The Hulman-George family still controls the purse strings and starting a new series would be more expensive than buying ALMS would have been two years ago. They have to spend more than $100 million on IMS and probably another $50 million to build up Indycar.

I don't see them spending money on a sports car series.

2)The manufactures don't what to run their sportscars under Nascar control either(your doing to good so we will take away horsepower,aero and add a ton of weight to your car for the next race)!


Agreed that Honda is no friend of NASCAR. Honda walked from AMA when NASCAR took over. And I believe HPD was willing to walk from USCR until ESM bought two LMP2s on Condition that HPD would support ESM in USCR in 2014.

Porsche and Audi and Ferrari recently added or upped their programs in Grand-AM.

Also, remember that Porsche pulling support for it's LMP2 program played a significant role in the downfall of the ALMS. The high water mark of the ALMS were the seasons with LMPs from Acura, Audi and Porsche fighting tooth and nail. Only HPD is left. The Manufacturers giveth, and they taketh away.

3)Indycar is pushing this to add value to their race weekend and to add another race to the brickyard(most likely to start of the month of May)and if they add lights with that $600 million gift from the state,it could be a 12-24hr race.

They was told to find another race to add to the brickyard to make it more profitable.


Given what NASCAR pays the tracks, the Brickyard weekend is very profitable. The weekend that is not is the MotoGP weekend. What is likely to happen there is that an Indycar Road Race in September (probably with USCR) will close the IMS season.

Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-10-2013 20:53
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RolledaNsx wrote:
4)And they're is group who what USCR to drop LMP2 and replace it with LMP1.Very easy to switch the HPD P2 to P1.

But there are two problems with that!

a)the DP owners want to be top dogs and will not allow it to happen.

b)The open-top LMP1 they want to use next year is not allowed to race next year at Le Mans!



Two comments on this:

What the DP owners want or don't want means nothing. Jim France runs the show. He's been subsidizing the entire GrandAm field. He'll decide what he wants to do, and it will be done no matter what anyone else thinks.

As to the open-topped LMP cars, IMSA and USCR can use whatever rules they want. They could run a 2014 series using 2013 LMP rules. In fact, it would make a lot of sense.

* It would give the current ALMS LMP1 teams someplace to run
with no additional investment. So that would give you three-to-five cars (pickett, two from dyson and one or two "old" Rebellions)

* ESM and Level 5 could either upgrade their existing cars to LMP 1 or some kind of trades could be worked out. For instance, Strakka is probably going to move to WEC LMP2 next year, so why not have ESM or Level 5 "trade" their HPDs back and forth with the sanction of Honda? And the others could be upgraded since their is a large and ready supply of LMP1 HPD engines. So in the end maybe there are 7-9 LMP1s in USCR in 2014.

* The DPs would not have to change, or would change just enough to stay ahead of the GTEs.

* There would be no need for any other changes.

This would give existing teams a place to run more or less existing equipment for a couple years while the USCR figures out what the future is really going to look like.

Makes too much sense, probably won't happen.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-10-2013 21:08
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All I know is that HPD,Porsche,Audi,Toyota wants to race their new 2014 P1's in America with Fiat(Ferrari or Masarati) maybe joining the fun too.

FIA is looking for another race in America and they want it to have the image as Sebring 12hr and the Petit Lemans had.

A endurance race at Indy could solve that problem.

Money wise....All you need is a core sponsor but with 4 auto manufactures backing the series and on the same weekend as Indy(you kill two stones with one race)the logistics is already done and the P1 race would bring in more money and promotion for the race.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-10-2013 21:16
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Pickett will not race in an Nascar controlled series!

The DP owners is the problem right now with USCR!

They are the cause of the delay of rules(if they don't get there way,they will not race)and at the moment they got NASCAR by the balls because they are most of the prototype field.At the moment NASCAR needs them,knowing NASCAR(France) they will change that in the near future.

Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-11-2013 10:25
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Pickett will not race in an Nascar controlled series!

The DP owners is the problem right now with USCR!

They are the cause of the delay of rules(if they don't get there way,they will not race)and at the moment they got NASCAR by the balls because they are most of the prototype field.At the moment NASCAR needs them,knowing NASCAR(France) they will change that in the near future.



About Pickett, I believe you are correct in that he does not want to have anything to do with NASCAR. My assumption has been that he would move to WEC and be the standard-bearer for the HPD P1 Coupe. That would dovetail nicely with the expansion of Muscle Milk internationally and the fact that his two drivers are product managers for Muscle Milk. But that is just an assumption on my part. I know nothing.

The DP owners and the DP structure is a definite problem with the USCR. There is no question there. The only "enlightened" ones that I know of are Peter Barron and "possibly" Ganassi. They are the two intelligent business heads in the room.

It's your last point I disagree with. I believe that the dillusional DP owners have a lot less actual influence than they think they do. The fact that the rules are not out is a reflection of the fact that Jim France has not made up his mind. He could not care less about things like DP car count, etc.

I think what he cares most about is money. That is, he has been subsidizing GrandAm throughout it's entire existence, and now he is faced with the task of creating some series that will at least have a chance of earning some money moving forward.

He has a lot of issues:

1) He does not know how many and what type of cars he will have (this dictates where he can run and what kind of races he can run). This has an effect on everything else.

2) He does not have a schedule for next year beyond Daytona, Sebring, Road Atlanta and Watkins Glen (now ISC tracks). My understanding is that talks with non-ISC tracks are kinda dependent on how many and what types of cars he has. he is finding that places like Road America are more likely to pay more money for an event if the Glamour class involved is P1. Attendance at races where the Glamour class has been DP have been dreadful.

3) He does not have a TV contract for next season. Which is a problem with Speed going away. He does not know if people will pay him for the right to broadcast the races, or if he is going to have to buy time.

4) He does not know if he will be able to run events with Nationwide or not.

5) He does not know how many races he will have, which affects the financial projections of teams.

6) And then there is this uncertainty about a breakaway series.

So, USCR is a mess. The SMART thing to do would be to reconsider the whole P1 decision. In a single stroke, a lot of things would fall into place.

If I were Jim France, that's what I would do. He's not stupid. He might do it.

And one of the things he might do is hold something like 1 12-hour or 24-hour race during the summer. There is a BIG HOLE in the WEC Schedule between LeMans and Brazil. What's to stop the USCR from holding a 24-hour or 12-hour race at The Glen in the middle of July and invite the big teams from the WEC for a one off?

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-11-2013 10:34
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Thru inside source it seems the DP owners are getting their way!

They don't want to spend no money until the new rules that will tie the series to ACO(New LMP2) that should happen 2016 or 2017.

1)nothing is going to be done to speed up the DP's

2)LMP2 will just get spec tires(the same that DP use)

Thats it!!!

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-11-2013 12:52
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Got more info on the P1 breakaway series.

The people behind it was trying to get USCR(NASCAR) to open up to P1's (that was Sebring in March) then by last week at Lime Rock they gave up on USCR.

Because of this behind the scenes talk...alot of people think is the reason of the 2014 USCR Rules delay!

The people behind this breakaway series are Big Hitters!!!
The only name known is Penske.

Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-11-2013 13:53
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Got more info on the P1 breakaway series.

The people behind it was trying to get USCR(NASCAR) to open up to P1's (that was Sebring in March) then by last week at Lime Rock they gave up on USCR.

Because of this behind the scenes talk...alot of people think is the reason of the 2014 USCR Rules delay!

The people behind this breakaway series are Big Hitters!!!
The only name known is Penske.



Thanks for the update. If Penske is involved, then Porsche is one of the co-conspirators because in sports cars, Penske and Porsche are tied at the hip.

Penske is also very friendly with HPD.

They would still need a lot of money as well as tracks to run on. And they would need GT cars.

The only way any of this makes sense is if they would form this as the Prototype class of something like World Challenge (a series whose existence is also threatened by the USCR merger).

So maybe this would give Audi, Dyson, Rebellion and HPD someplace to run P1s in the states. And maybe give HPD and Porsche someplace to run their Hybrid sports cars.

But they would have to acquire or run with World Challenge and those guys would have to agree to up their game, performance wise. otherwise this doesn't work, in my opinion.

It will be very hard, but not impossible. There would be no Daytona, Sebring and Petit, as well as without Watkins Glen and Sonoma (ISC Tracks).

There would be an interesting war over which series would be the support series for WEC at COTA.

You would have to get Indycar support in a MAJOR way.

You would have to get Indycar to share all its Road/Street course races. And this would put Indycar and IMS into a state of Open warfare with NASCAR/ISC.

This would have some interesting consequences:

Indycar would have to be prepared to lose its races at Fontana and Sonoma. And IMS would have to be prepared to lose the Brickyard 400.

Indycar would also have to be prepared to lose Chevy, since NASCAR would likely make Chevy choose one side or the other. This has impact on Penske as well, since he is the principal owner of Ilmor. If Penske is on board with this, he must have some contingency for either Porsche or Audi to pick up the sponsorship of the Chevy-Ilmor engine.

There would have to get the Major Independent Road Course owners to go along, particularly Road America. The problem for RA would be the loss of the Nationwide Series race, the USCR race and any hope of ever getting a Sprint Cup Race. Same for Laguna Seca and Mosport. MidOhio and Barber aren't really in the same boat since they are both heavily supported by Honda.

So you would likely have a series that would be based on the indycar road/street course schedule:

St. Pete
Barber
Long Beach
Detroit (might need a new sponsor if Chevy defects)
Toronto street course
Mid-Ohio
MAYBE Road America
Baltimore
Houston
MAYBE COTA as support for WEC
MAYBE Mosport

Maybe an Indy Road Course event somewhere

On the Plus side for the New Series, maybe the New Series gets Porsche, Audi and maybe Ferrari to pull support for their GT cars in the USCR? Who knows where BMW would come down in all this.

The problem commercially is that the big money events for teams are Daytona, Sebring and PLM. Not sure where they are going to pick up that slack. That kind of thing is what ultimately killed Champ Car: they did not have Indy.

I guess it's possible. But it would be mighty bloody.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-11-2013 14:28
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^

You hit it right on!

Thats why they tried to work with NASCAR to add P1 to USCR but it looks like Nascar is being Nascar(my way or the highway)!
I still have hope because of USCR delay of rules they could still pull this off!

It is said they have the backing of four Manufactures.

It also seems HPD is behind this too(they want to race hybrids!!!) a place to race their NSX in America.

Classes

P1
GTE/GT3 including hybrids

If it does happen will run with Indycar.



Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-11-2013 17:33
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RolledaNsx wrote:
It is said they have the backing of four Manufactures.





Does that number four include both Audi and Porsche, or are they one since they now have common ownership?

Assume Honda would be one of the others. And If Honda is one of the others, that would be the tail dragging along the Indycar dog since Indycar is extremely dependent on Honda.

Would Toyota be in your gang of four?

Would be interesting if Ferrari was part of the mix. Having Ferrari and Porsche would be like having the Yankees and the Cubs. People go to races just to see Ferraris and Porsches. If the USCR had neither, that would be interesting.

RolledaNsx
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Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-11-2013 17:46
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Porsche,Audi,Toyota,Honda with Ferrari thinking about it.


RolledaNsx
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Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-11-2013 19:19
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And you can add Dyson to the list who don't want to race USCR!

He is looking into WEC P2 next year.

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2013 09:15
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This is potentially exciting stuff! If NASCAR wants to cannibalize real sports car and endurance racing in the US just to homologize it with their series' then they ABSOLUTELY deserve to be put in there place and have this happen to them. They may be the biggest show in town but there's still other big money out there which/who can make things happen. Plus if this happens, I think you'll see the fragile tie to the ACO/Le Mans Scott Atherton is so desperately trying to hang onto with USCR slowly disintegrate and move to this *potential* series essentially making USCR DOA!
Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2013 23:44
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gofast182 wrote:
This is potentially exciting stuff! If NASCAR wants to cannibalize real sports car and endurance racing in the US just to homologize it with their series' then they ABSOLUTELY deserve to be put in there place and have this happen to them. They may be the biggest show in town but there's still other big money out there which/who can make things happen. Plus if this happens, I think you'll see the fragile tie to the ACO/Le Mans Scott Atherton is so desperately trying to hang onto with USCR slowly disintegrate and move to this *potential* series essentially making USCR DOA!



Heard from someone I trust that this it is "very unlikely" for this breakaway series to ever turn a wheel. And that at Lime Rock there were not enough people willing to make strong enough commitments to pull it off.

Anyone who want's to race P1 in 2014 is going to have to play with the WEC.

RolledaNsx
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Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2013 00:36
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The (Penske)P1 rumor almost broke today with a slip of the tongue of an insider.

Penske is looking for crew members in Germany.

It looks like Penske will be running Porsche P1 in 2014 WEC.

Wouldn't be surprise he is running the factory Porsche program like Joest is running for Audi!

But there is some heavy hitters pushing for more P1 races in America,either with USCR or WEC(Sebring,Petit Le mans,COTA)

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: New Sports Car Racing Series in America for 2015?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2013 01:58
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RolledaNsx wrote:
The (Penske)P1 rumor almost broke today with a slip of the tongue of an insider.

Penske is looking for crew members in Germany.

It looks like Penske will be running Porsche P1 in 2014 WEC.

Wouldn't be surprise he is running the factory Porsche program like Joest is running for Audi!

But there is some heavy hitters pushing for more P1 races in America,either with USCR or WEC(Sebring,Petit Le mans,COTA)



If true then Penske will have another Aussie driver - at least they'll be used to the Aussie accent and vernacular :D

Bullwinkle
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Re: Penske NOT running Sports cars in 2014    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2013 15:15
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Tim Cindric clearly debunks rumors that Penske would be running a LMP1 Porsche in 2014:

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/le-mans-cindric-denies-penske-porsche-lmp1-program/

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Penske NOT running Sports cars in 2014    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2013 16:08
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I talk to John Dagys a couple times a week and he was out of the loop of most of these rumors(most likely because he's the only writer except the Nascar writers to not be laid-off by SPEED"FOXSPORTS')with Marshall breaking the HPD storing and Graham the P1 story.

So John called Tim Cindric to get a story and like any team boss not ready to tell the story,he debunks the story(rumors) because it wasn't suppose to be known yet!

By reading the story he doesn't explain why they are hiring crew people in Germany(that is the only fact) everything else is speculation.


 
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