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  TOV Articles > TOV Dyno Test: 2013 Accord EX 6MT > > Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version

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mobis21
Profile for mobis21
Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-09-2013 11:34
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Why would Acura continue to use the older K24 in the TSX and CR-V?

How does it compare to the Civic Si motor?

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-09-2013 13:33
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mobis21 wrote:
Why would Acura continue to use the older K24 in the TSX and CR-V?

How does it compare to the Civic Si motor?



The civic Si engine is essentially identical to the TSX's

mobis21
Profile for mobis21
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-09-2013 14:15
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So, sounds like the Civic Si might be a bit quicker with the Accord motor. And on regular fuel.
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-09-2013 19:07
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Here's the problem, without a special, high output engine, the Si then becomes like so many other sports models (thinking Kia Forte coupe for example) where they just drop in the biggest factory engine they can.

The K24W is a perfect Accord engine. But it is painfully dull and would not engender much love in a Civic Si. Just look at how the hamstrung K24Z7 has been received!

SC

JP
Profile for JP
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-10-2013 01:52
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notyper wrote:
Here's the problem, without a special, high output engine, the Si then becomes like so many other sports models (thinking Kia Forte coupe for example) where they just drop in the biggest factory engine they can.

The K24W is a perfect Accord engine. But it is painfully dull and would not engender much love in a Civic Si. Just look at how the hamstrung K24Z7 has been received!

SC



Agree.

In the other hand, my guesses are that it will be a really good powertrain for the CR-V.

atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-10-2013 19:40
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mobis21 wrote:
Why would Acura continue to use the older K24 in the TSX and CR-V?

How does it compare to the Civic Si motor?



If Honda put the K24W1 in a Civic Si, they'd probably end up with something that is sort of like a VW GTI, but a bit better.

From the looks of the dyno, the K24W1 actually makes around 200 horsepower and 200 lb-ft of torque, though it makes max power about 1k RPM higher and has less low-end torque than the GTI's turbo 2.0.

One thing that 8G Civic owners who moved to GTIs have noted on various Civic forums is that the GTI does not generate the same kind of rush that the Civic Si w' K20Z3 does. The Civic Si FG2/FA5 is not a fast car by modern standards, but it is a car that the driver can wring out without always being in imminent danger of a speeding ticket. The K24W1 would probably result in a faster and more efficient Civic Si, but probably not one that is more fun to drive.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-11-2013 02:09
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
The K24W1 would probably result in a faster and more efficient Civic Si, but probably not one that is more fun to drive.


Than the 2012+ Si? Maybe. But compared to the 2011 Si with the K20? Nope (at least once you're in 2nd gear and up). The problem here is the crappy nature of the K24Z7 power curve. Wrong engine in the wrong car.

SC

JP
Profile for JP
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-11-2013 13:13
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notyper wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
The K24W1 would probably result in a faster and more efficient Civic Si, but probably not one that is more fun to drive.


Than the 2012+ Si? Maybe. But compared to the 2011 Si with the K20? Nope (at least once you're in 2nd gear and up). The problem here is the crappy nature of the K24Z7 power curve. Wrong engine in the wrong car.

SC



I was wondering if Jeff could do a dyno chart comparison '11 Si vs '12-13, but hp-tq vs. speed (instead of RPMs) and another one speed vs. distance or time...

I always had the believe that the '11 would be faster from 60mph and up...

atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-11-2013 14:59
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notyper wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
The K24W1 would probably result in a faster and more efficient Civic Si, but probably not one that is more fun to drive.


Than the 2012+ Si? Maybe. But compared to the 2011 Si with the K20? Nope (at least once you're in 2nd gear and up). The problem here is the crappy nature of the K24Z7 power curve. Wrong engine in the wrong car.

SC



Yeah, I meant faster than the current 9G Si, although I think that the K24W1 would probably return better fuel economy ratings (in real world driving, I guess it would depend more on the driver).

Interesting that the K20Z3 was also underrated. Anyone remember Jeff's dyno (same facility in Atlanta) of the '11 Si? http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?page_number=2&article_id=1001062

Max power of 192.19, max torque of 139.87. Assuming a 10-15% driveline loss, the K20Z3 in its final form makes between 214 and 226 horsepower at the crank.

'13 Si Sedan weighs 2967 lbs, '11 Si Sedan weighs 2954 lbs. Assuming that the '13's weight would not change much swapping out the K24Z7 for the K24W1, the '11 has a favorable power to weight ratio at the top end.

I'd actually be interested in seeing the K20Z3 dyno results superimposed on the K24W1 chart here.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 21:41
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
notyper wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
The K24W1 would probably result in a faster and more efficient Civic Si, but probably not one that is more fun to drive.


Than the 2012+ Si? Maybe. But compared to the 2011 Si with the K20? Nope (at least once you're in 2nd gear and up). The problem here is the crappy nature of the K24Z7 power curve. Wrong engine in the wrong car.

SC



Yeah, I meant faster than the current 9G Si, although I think that the K24W1 would probably return better fuel economy ratings (in real world driving, I guess it would depend more on the driver).

Interesting that the K20Z3 was also underrated. Anyone remember Jeff's dyno (same facility in Atlanta) of the '11 Si? http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?page_number=2&article_id=1001062

Max power of 192.19, max torque of 139.87. Assuming a 10-15% driveline loss, the K20Z3 in its final form makes between 214 and 226 horsepower at the crank.

'13 Si Sedan weighs 2967 lbs, '11 Si Sedan weighs 2954 lbs. Assuming that the '13's weight would not change much swapping out the K24Z7 for the K24W1, the '11 has a favorable power to weight ratio at the top end.

I'd actually be interested in seeing the K20Z3 dyno results superimposed on the K24W1 chart here.



There really is no need. It has already been debated ad nauseum for the K24Z7 vs the K20Z3. The K24W would only serve to further increase torque, further reduce top end etc. IMO, the MPG would be inconsequential in a sporty car that already does 30+MPG. Also, again, the true solution would have been a compromise in a 2.2L with a few changes to the existing K20Z3 head in order to ensure a higher level of emissions compliance.

The K24W would trump the Z3 below VTEC, and probably lose above VTEC. If the Z3 switched over at the proper point (~4500RPM vs 5800), it would still win below 6K, but to a lesser degree. The K24W seems to be a great engine. For an Accord. Not really Si material IMO.

I also don't think the K24W would really make a GTI competitor. It is still down a lot of torque (the GTI is under-rated as well), and a similar weight Accord Sport 6MT is a few MPH and a few 10th's slower as well.


S600=Dream
Profile for S600=Dream
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-14-2013 09:29
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What engine *could* go in to the Civic Si to make it more exciting?

I'm blanking, frankly.

s2ktaxi
Profile for s2ktaxi
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 01:03
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S600=Dream wrote:
What engine *could* go in to the Civic Si to make it more exciting?

I'm blanking, frankly.


a K20W with an 8500 RPM redline :)

S600=Dream
Profile for S600=Dream
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 22:08
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Yeah that'd be terrific, but I'm talking existing engines or engines in the pipeline.

Still blanking...

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2013 14:41
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JeffX wrote:
mobis21 wrote:
Why would Acura continue to use the older K24 in the TSX and CR-V?

How does it compare to the Civic Si motor?



The civic Si engine is essentially identical to the TSX's



Not quite. The throttle setting feels quite different. The TSX feels quite strong in the bottom end due to its progressive throttle setting, whereas I don't feel any such rush in the Si.

In addtion, I think that motor is better suited for an automatic transmission than an MT: Shifting at the redline is neither necessary nor useful. You're better off short shifting at 6500 and staying in the meat of the torque curve. Because of this, the AT does a better job.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2013 14:43
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S600=Dream wrote:
Yeah that'd be terrific, but I'm talking existing engines or engines in the pipeline.

Still blanking...




Existing engines?

Put an AT into the current Si and call it the EX-R.

Then put back the K20Z tweaked for a bit more power in the Si.

Hmm.. that would kill the ILX.

ClementZ
Profile for ClementZ
Re: Replace all K24s with the DI version [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-06-2013 17:11
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S600=Dream wrote:
Yeah that'd be terrific, but I'm talking existing engines or engines in the pipeline.

Still blanking...



That's because IIRC, Honda doesn't currently make an engine that would suit the Si.


 
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