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  TOV News > All-New 2014 Acura RLX Employs an Array of New Signature Acura Technologies to Deliver a New Level > > Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like...

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sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-22-2013 09:48
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The headlight chop looks too much like an Audi.
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-24-2013 14:19
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dampflok wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Not to quibble, but you are largely incorrect.
Actually, no, I'm largely correct, except that I should clarify my position: The single most important thing Honda could have done to improve the styling was switch to a longitudinal engine layout, whether FWD or RWD, that significantly increased the axle-to-dash. That would have substantially boosted the basic proportions, and thus the foundation of the car's looks.

If Honda had gone with FF-L, I doubt they would have hung the engine out in front of the axle la Audi, because they wouldn't have needed to accommodate Audi's unique quattro system. It's more likely that Honda would have gone with a layout similar to that of the "2nd gen Legend/1st Gen RL/1st gen TL/Vigor," as you put it. By the way, it's my understanding that even the newest Audis with "true" quattro still have the entire block sitting ahead of the axle. It's just that the differential is now in front of the clutch, instead of vice versa. At any rate, even if an FF-L RLX had an axle-to-dash no better than that of a current Audi, it would still be a significant improvement over the car's current proportions. So in the end, I don't think we really disagree.

So, really, my original statement stands. Pure RWD > Longitudinal FWD > Transverse FWD. This is from a styling standpoint.
Your statement could use a clarification similar to the one I added to mine. Your own examples (the old Audis, the Chrysler LH cars) show that FF-L doesn't necessarily result in better proportions. Thus, stated more accurately: Pure RWD > Longitudinal FWD with increased axle-to-dash > Transverse FWD. Again, ultimately I think we're in agreement.




I see what you are saying now, and yes I agree on that.

Audi's solution was very similar to the outcome of Acura's (to move the axle forward), but was achieved in a slightly different way. However, it also manages to move the powertrain further back in relation to the axle, just as Acura's did.

It actually looks like Acura modified a transverse FWD setup to get their system to work, while Audi's is a little more bespoke.

The 2nd gen Legend essentially had a FWD tranny turned sideways, with the axle output facing the rear having a plug in it. The front one fed a shaft that went to a perpendicular differential carrier that in turn located the front half shafts. Since the shaft ran up along the right side of the engine, the easiest way to get the axle through the engine to the left wheel was to go through the oil pan (which they did). Ironically, Acura had a PTO option that could have fed a rear diff and lent itself well to AWD. Perhaps such a pursuit would have headed Audi off at the pass (since Audi was largely irrelevant back in 1992).

Audi's solution is a little more elegant IMO, and is similar to what Subaru does with their FWD based chassis. Since the engine sits longitudinally, they chose to use a more traditional tranny setup where the transmission feeds power to the rear, and then both front half shafts come out of their respective sides and go straight toward the wheels. This creates the challenge of having the diff BEHIND the clutch and puts the engine very far ahead of the wheels (which is why old Audi's have so much overhang. However, by seperating the diff, and moving under the engine block by the oil pan, they are able to move everything back by 5-6" and don't need the external shaft/carrier/diff that Acura used on the Legend. It accomplishes the same thing, but is completely internal to the transmission instead. My assumption would be that this probably lends itself to greater horsepower numbers due to strength and weight issues, and might be just a smidge more weight and friction efficient.

However, the undeniably tangible benefit to both systems is that they make the car look a lot better, which is important when I am paying for purchases based on emotional appeal. They both have a minor impact on weight distribution too (although Acura's was largely ineffective in this regard).

S600=Dream
Profile for S600=Dream
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-24-2013 20:02
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Sorry, I don't think that's very elegant. The whole damn engine is hanging off the front of the axle.

It's no better or worse than Acura's solution/problem.





owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-24-2013 23:02
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S600=Dream wrote:


Sorry, I don't think that's very elegant. The whole damn engine is hanging off the front of the axle.

It's no better or worse than Acura's solution/problem.







Way to shoot yourself in the foot...

1) Your image isn't working.

2) Since your image wasn't working, I used your post code to backtrack the photo you tried to post, and found it to be of the powertrain of an A6 from 2002, which was not only on a completely different platform, but was before the powertrain modifications in question in this discussion. The current B8 S4 was the first car to debut Audi's new relocated front differential, and it didn't debut until 2009. That makes one wonder why a picture of a 2002 RS6 was posted...

3) Your picture shows nothing of the actual transmission, because it is a complete powertrain cradle including the front suspension and brakes. But it DOES prove my point about the old Audi engines being located 100% in front of the suspension though, so thanks for backing me up.

Now, to discuss the topic at hand:

1) I said Audi's solution was more elegant, which was immediately followed by an IMO. In internet speak, IMO means "In my opinion."

2) I stand by my assertion because Audi's ability to move the differential forward was contained completely in the transmission. Acura's was not. It had a PTO, a large differential mounted to the right side of the block, a half shaft segment going through the oil pan, and then the other part of the half shaft attached to the shaft going through the block. Audi's is a lot like Subaru's setup, but with the differential placed foward and slightly below (to clear the block). The main advantage of Acura's setup was probably that it allowed the engine to sit a little further back, but Audi's advantage is that it is probably stronger and more efficient, and likely stronger from a high-power standpoint. It also manages a bigger % improvement in weight distribution compared to Acura's setup. Acura's setup probably also allowed the powertrain to sit lower in the car, since it didn't place the differential on a plane below the block. However, with the vertical growth of cars, crash-worthiness requirements and other factors, that probably isn't as big of an advantage as it was 20 years ago.

Of course, you would have to actually know what Acura's setup looks like to understand that, and you probably clearly don't.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-24-2013 23:07
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Correction: The new platform debuted with the A5 in 2007.
S600=Dream
Profile for S600=Dream
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-25-2013 01:56
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You know, you sure can be a prick, owe.

You make terrific points, good arguments, and are often in the right in discussions, but boy, you're so rude about it.

Anyhow, I stand corrected. The last time I saw underhood of an Audi was a few years ago at a local car-guy get together thing--it was the at-the-time-most-current RS4, the one with the V8--and the thing I distinctly remember was how absurdly far off of the front axle it was. I just googled some images of the most recent A6 and yes, it looks like a good setup.

And I have a pretty good idea of what Acura's setup looks like--I'm the proud owner of a shnoz-heavy TL. Yes, I realize that the TL isn't the RLX, but let's be realistic: It's the same damn plank as the RLX. Don't try and tell me otherwise. I'm sure it's setup is going to be *very* similar, as Honda and Acura's FWD V6's have been mounted basically the same way since the dawn of time. It's far from being a compact setup, and there is a fair amount of overhang, but it's not as extreme as *that particular* Audi's that I remember seeing. Most of the Audi's from that generation were set up like that, too, if I remember correctly.

Again, that's because the Audi was a few years older, it had a big-ass V8 in it. It seems they have corrected that, and I also looked up the most recent S6's weight distribution--55.6/44.4, which is pretty impressive.

Sorry I pee'd in your coffee with my comment. Sheesh.

And God forbid someone could be wrong about something around here!

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-25-2013 22:17
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S600=Dream wrote:
You know, you sure can be a prick, owe.

You make terrific points, good arguments, and are often in the right in discussions, but boy, you're so rude about it.

Anyhow, I stand corrected. The last time I saw underhood of an Audi was a few years ago at a local car-guy get together thing--it was the at-the-time-most-current RS4, the one with the V8--and the thing I distinctly remember was how absurdly far off of the front axle it was. I just googled some images of the most recent A6 and yes, it looks like a good setup.

And I have a pretty good idea of what Acura's setup looks like--I'm the proud owner of a shnoz-heavy TL. Yes, I realize that the TL isn't the RLX, but let's be realistic: It's the same damn plank as the RLX. Don't try and tell me otherwise. I'm sure it's setup is going to be *very* similar, as Honda and Acura's FWD V6's have been mounted basically the same way since the dawn of time. It's far from being a compact setup, and there is a fair amount of overhang, but it's not as extreme as *that particular* Audi's that I remember seeing. Most of the Audi's from that generation were set up like that, too, if I remember correctly.

Again, that's because the Audi was a few years older, it had a big-ass V8 in it. It seems they have corrected that, and I also looked up the most recent S6's weight distribution--55.6/44.4, which is pretty impressive.

Sorry I pee'd in your coffee with my comment. Sheesh.

And God forbid someone could be wrong about something around here!



Ah, this is why I love this site... :sarcasm:

You come on here and attempt to make me look stupid (for whatever reason), because it apparently makes you feel more endowed, but when I call you on it (using the same level of condescension; but in a more direct form), somehow I end up being a prick.

You sir are the prick because you are the one that came in with your snide "look how dumb YOU are!" post. I simply put it back in your face because you clearly had no idea what you were talking about. Had you come in and said in a non-prickish manner what you ended up saying here, the last post never would have happened.

My original point was not mean, my discussion with the other guy was not mean, and nothing was personal until you entered the conversation to show how stupid my claim was. You get called on it, and now I am a jerk? Thanks for the compliment.

And no, you don't have any idea what it looks like. We aren't talking about the TL (unless it is the first gen). We are (and were) talking about the Legend's longitudinal layout when compared to Audi's longitudinal layout. The transverse layout in the TL and RL only entered the discussion because it shortens the axle to dash ratio due to putting the wheels BEHIND the engine. The longitudinal layout has a lot of potential to fix that, and we were discussing the difference between how Acura accomplished it, and how Audi accomplished it. For some reason, you felt the need to try and interject knowledge that was irrelevant to the conversation.

I think you need to go learn what the definition of "longitudinal" versus "transverse" means, because you seem to be missing a critical technical detail here. And no, not all of Acura's or Honda's V6's have been setup the same way. The Legend/1st gen RL/1st gen TL and Vigor were different animals entirely, hence the conversation.

And the reason Audi's weight distribution is better (even in an equally heavy car) is because the MLB platform allows them to slide the front axle line forward by 5-6" which places more of the powertrain mass further back in the car. It also allows them to increase the axle to dash ratio (since the wheels sit further forward relative to the length of the front end) and it reduces the front overhang because of this same reason. The downside from an Acura perspective is that they can't just lump it onto an Accord chassis for minimal investment and call it a day.

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-25-2013 22:35
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owequitit wrote:
The downside from an Acura perspective is that they can't just lump it onto an Accord chassis for minimal investment and call it a day.


Do they realize everyone is on to that?

I don't think they do, and as long as they think they are fooling everyone, the slide will continue.

Brutus
Profile for Brutus
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-26-2013 08:35
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I agree I prefer it as well...but working on maybe the one bright spot for this design is not what needs to be done. But yes it does look very future-like, I just wish those headlights were more aggressive anyhow.

B.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-26-2013 10:16
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S600=Dream wrote:
You know, you sure can be a prick, owe.

You make terrific points, good arguments, and are often in the right in discussions, but boy, you're so rude about it.


Some things never change on TOV.


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-26-2013 20:23
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superchg2 wrote:
S600=Dream wrote:
You know, you sure can be a prick, owe.

You make terrific points, good arguments, and are often in the right in discussions, but boy, you're so rude about it.


Some things never change on TOV.




Except he was rude to me... I suppose that is forgivable though isn't it?

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-26-2013 20:41
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owequitit wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
S600=Dream wrote:
You know, you sure can be a prick, owe.

You make terrific points, good arguments, and are often in the right in discussions, but boy, you're so rude about it.


Some things never change on TOV.




Except he was rude to me... I suppose that is forgivable though isn't it?


Here are some of your comments that brought his response.
If these aren't rude, I don't know what is.

owequitit wrote:

Way to shoot yourself in the foot...

Of course, you would have to actually know what Acura's setup looks like to understand that, and you probably clearly don't.


And, the truth is that you have tallied up at least 20 confrontations with others on TOV, including myself, over the last few years, that I am aware of.


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-26-2013 23:17
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superchg2 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
S600=Dream wrote:
You know, you sure can be a prick, owe.

You make terrific points, good arguments, and are often in the right in discussions, but boy, you're so rude about it.


Some things never change on TOV.




Except he was rude to me... I suppose that is forgivable though isn't it?


Here are some of your comments that brought his response.
If these aren't rude, I don't know what is.

owequitit wrote:

Way to shoot yourself in the foot...

Of course, you would have to actually know what Acura's setup looks like to understand that, and you probably clearly don't.


And, the truth is that you have tallied up at least 20 confrontations with others on TOV, including myself, over the last few years, that I am aware of.




His post came before mine, so how could my response possibly have prompted his?

It seems a lesson in cause and effect might be in order here...

He can't be responding to my post if his occurred before mine did. I was responding to his post which had already occurred. Simple matter of time/physics really.

Oh, and by the way, he DID shoot himself the foot.

1) He condescendingly tried to prove me wrong by showing an older version of an Audi platform. If he is going to correct people with his knowledge, he should at least perform due diligence to make sure the information posted is accurate. He most likely has a search engine (which he used to find said picture in the first place), so verifying shouldn't have been a huge problem.

2) It wasn't the incorrect picture in and of itself that was the problem. It was the attempt to use it to "prove" that I didn't know what an Audi MLB powertrain looked like. It wasn't followed by a "why do you say that," "what is different" etc. It was simply an implied "you don't know what you are talking about" statement of "fact."

Sorry, I don't think that's very elegant. The whole damn engine is hanging off the front of the axle.

It's no better or worse than Acura's solution/problem.


It was a definitive statement about how I was wrong and how that picture proved it. See #1.

3) Like I said, I responded in kind, I am simply more direct about it. He wanted to prove who was right, so I obliged. It was even more ridiculous after I very specifically stated "In My Opinion" (IMO) in the post he was smashing me over.

4) He then started to interject a bunch of smokescreen about how his TL SH-AWD this and that, when the entire conversation was predicated on LONGITUDINALLY mounted powertrains and Acura vs Audi's solution to the same problem (moving the axle forward for styling proportion/weight distribution issues). The TL SH-AWD never entered the conversation, and the RLX only was in that part of the thread because of the obviously FWD overhang and dash to axle ratio. Let us not forget that the purpose of this whole thread is discussing what the car would have looked like with a longitudinal powertrain with the axle moved forward, which is why it is relevant. He further demonstrated a lack of knowledge because of the reference that:

Anyhow, I stand corrected. The last time I saw underhood of an Audi was a few years ago at a local car-guy get together thing--it was the at-the-time-most-current RS4, the one with the V8--and the thing I distinctly remember was how absurdly far off of the front axle it was. I just googled some images of the most recent A6 and yes, it looks like a good setup.


Sounds like a Mea Culpa to me. Too bad he didn't look at that new A6 setup PRIOR to posting, which would have avoided the whole problem...

And I have a pretty good idea of what Acura's setup looks like--I'm the proud owner of a shnoz-heavy TL. Yes, I realize that the TL isn't the RLX, but let's be realistic: It's the same damn plank as the RLX. Don't try and tell me otherwise. I'm sure it's setup is going to be *very* similar, as Honda and Acura's FWD V6's have been mounted basically the same way since the dawn of time. It's far from being a compact setup, and there is a fair amount of overhang, but it's not as extreme as *that particular* Audi's that I remember seeing. Most of the Audi's from that generation were set up like that, too, if I remember correctly.


The problem is that the Audi mentioned wasn't the Audi in question and it predated the platform in question (the current A4/S4/A5/S5/A6/S6/A7/S7 MLB), the TL is 100% different from the 2nd gen Legend by being transverse Accord based rather than bespoke longitudinal and on and on and on. The only relvance the TL even had to the thread was the fact that it puts the mass of the engine ahead of the axle and puts the axle closer to the firewall just like the RLX.

He also completely neglected the part where I mentioned exactly how Audi implemented the change of moving the diff forward, versus Acura, and why I thought it was more elegant (again, IMO) regardless of styling implications. It isn't like I just said "Audi is awesome and Acura is dumb."

But it is funny that we won't acknowledge any of THAT non-sense. Nope. It is just about what an ass I am because I stood my ground when he attempted to call me out (after stating IMO, and after elaborating in detail) and ended up getting egg on his face.

As for your past history, if you got into with me, it was probably largely for the same reason. As I recall, you had to change your name to #2 because I wasn't the only one you had problems with... And for the record, I really don't give a shit what you think and I find it funny that you give me shit for "confronting" people, but you had absolutely no purpose in this conversation other than to fan whatever fire you thought was there so that you could play Dudley Do-Right and try to make it my problem. You have been as much of a prick as he has.

I have no problem with intelligent discussion. And yes, I stand my ground on my opinion. Nobody else is faulted for standing their ground, so why should I be? I have strong opinions. If you don't like that, ignore me. Nobody forces you to post to the contrary.



owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Wondering what the cancelled V8 RWD version would have looked like... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-26-2013 23:30
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DCR wrote:
owequitit wrote:
The downside from an Acura perspective is that they can't just lump it onto an Accord chassis for minimal investment and call it a day.


Do they realize everyone is on to that?

I don't think they do, and as long as they think they are fooling everyone, the slide will continue.



I honestly don't think it matters anymore. They are so irrelevant they may not make it back before they get axed.

They won't chase innovation through R&D, product differentiation and bespoke technology. They won't work the volume angle by tapping markets that are largely untapped (because ultimately it would waste more money to put inferior product in those new markets), they won't invest in new product, their marketing sucks, and Honda has a hard enough time not screwing up their core product, let alone financially detrimental Acura.

Ida Mae Brown was quoted as defining insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Fukui cut everything Acura had in development because it was too expensive, which basically forced Acura back to rehashing the Accord. Then, in the latest article the head of marketing was quoted as saying that Acura is seen as a "value leader" in the luxury segment and that this new product would move them up the line. The problem is that the new product doesn't do anything to move them forward that the older product hasn't already failed at. They take a plebian platform (Accord and Civic) rehash, rebody, and re-equip it, give it middling performance, middling size, boring styling and no curb appeal and expect it to fix the "value" equation by doing exactly what got them there in the first place (rehashing Honda platforms with little to no differentiation except features).

The only difference that I can really see between this attempt at success and the last one is that they no longer offer the pricing discount that used to move their product relative to the competitors. Somehow, charging more for the same stuff is supposed to work out this time, because as long as it is expensive, nobody will know it is just a fancy Accord...


 
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