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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate

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Nick GravesX
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Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2013 15:52
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Nick Graves wrote:
Hondu wrote:
notyper wrote:
There have been several German cars I wanted to buy but just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger on. And the biggest reason has been my fear of having a catastrophic failure on a new car. I've tried to convince myself that it was an irrational fear born of incomplete information. But I just couldn't do it.

Maybe if I leased more cars (only did that once) I could do it, but since I don't. And that's a big reason why I bitch so much about Honda not making any cars I like - oh well. Shopping for that CTS-V right now. Know them, like them, trust them.

SC



+1. I wish Acura would make a sporty coupe in the $35K-45K price range. I am planning on purchasing a 1-series at the moment, but I continue to have reliability fears in the back of my mind. I guess the engineer in me has a hard time settling for less than the bullet proof quality/easy ownership I have experienced in all of the Honda's and Acura's I've had over the years.

The trouble is, after driving a BMW, it is difficult to find something else that is as enjoyable to drive and in the same price range.



Why not a new Accord coupe, particularly? It's nearly that much. I know it's rather bigger & FWD, but I can't look at one from here...





I just answered my own question; order sat-nav & it comes in no colours and no xenons and stuff.

Pile of crap.

Honestly, get yourself a BRZ and spend the rest on a supercharger and stuff, if you want.

It's reliable (so far!) and massive fun! Like an old skool Honda.

A77
Profile for A77
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2013 15:54
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For all the whingeing we all do - there's no denying that as far as the basics are concerned - ie engine and (manual) transmission quality, Hondas reign supreme and always have. It is so rare for me to see an engine being replaced in service - so much so I usually ask the mechanic what happened. As often as not its cos someone modified something - like a cold air intake behind the bumper sucking up water...
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2013 16:03
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Hondu wrote:
The trouble is, after driving a BMW, it is difficult to find something else that is as enjoyable to drive and in the same price range.


Which is precisely why BMW offers those great leases and free maintenance. Sure, you might get stuck without a car in the event of a catastrophic failure, but at least you won't be paying for it, or wondering if its going to fail again out of warranty. I think the Germans looked at their reliability issues and decided it was cheaper and easier just to subsidize leases than try and track down all the cascading issues associated with ever more complex cars (not that they don't try and fix stuff, but they certainly seem to miss more during development and testing).

On the topic of the Accord....I could never go back to FWD on anything but a small runabout. A Fit Si would be a great shop car, and I like the Focus ST, but I just hate being so traction limited. Along those same lines, it was difficult to go away from AWD on my EvoX, but at least RWD cars with reasonable tires can still hook up a fair bit of power, and a tweaked turbo 4 makes low speed AWD launches a bit of an all or nothing affair - not so attractive for street use. So RWD still wins out unless you live in a winter wonderland IMO.

SC

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2013 16:19
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Did the EvoX understeer much? The Subarus seem to. As for RWD, I love the BRZ over the Civic Si. So much more front grip in corners when you want to power through them. And that's only on 200hp cars.
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2013 16:35
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Nah, as a performance chassis, the EvoX is worlds ahead of the STI. Best turn-in of any car I've ever driven. Turn the wheel and the thing just dove for the Apex, but with the AWD setup it was never twitchy. A little terminal understeer at the very limit, but nothing you could adjust for - and that's with the stock alignment. With a performance alignment it got extra neutral to slightly oversteery, which makes for a very, very fast car (with 400 whp and an otherwise stock chassis/tires/brakes nothing short of well prepped cars on race tires could touch me on short road courses). But it never really felt like I was doing much to contribute to that. Get the entry speed right, turn in and mash the gas. It made me _look_ brilliant though.

The Suby does have a much better setup for a daily driver though. Much more comfy, the suspension absorbs bumps better, etc. I'd feel comfortable taking a stock STI or WRX for a hoon on a dirt road, not so much with the Evo (although people do). But on a racetrack, you really had to toss the STI around to get it to rotate properly.

As for the BRZ/FRS, as good as any OEM chassis I've driven in the last decade from the factory (BRZ being a little better because the FRS does get a bit loose at the limit when it doesn't need to). Yes, it could be a bit stiffer on the race course, and it could use more grip, but it does _exactly_ what you tell it to do and then tells you what its doing. All one can really ask for.

SC

Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2013 16:45
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Nick Graves wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
Hondu wrote:
notyper wrote:
There have been several German cars I wanted to buy but just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger on. And the biggest reason has been my fear of having a catastrophic failure on a new car. I've tried to convince myself that it was an irrational fear born of incomplete information. But I just couldn't do it.

Maybe if I leased more cars (only did that once) I could do it, but since I don't. And that's a big reason why I bitch so much about Honda not making any cars I like - oh well. Shopping for that CTS-V right now. Know them, like them, trust them.

SC



+1. I wish Acura would make a sporty coupe in the $35K-45K price range. I am planning on purchasing a 1-series at the moment, but I continue to have reliability fears in the back of my mind. I guess the engineer in me has a hard time settling for less than the bullet proof quality/easy ownership I have experienced in all of the Honda's and Acura's I've had over the years.

The trouble is, after driving a BMW, it is difficult to find something else that is as enjoyable to drive and in the same price range.



Why not a new Accord coupe, particularly? It's nearly that much. I know it's rather bigger & FWD, but I can't look at one from here...





I just answered my own question; order sat-nav & it comes in no colours and no xenons and stuff.

Pile of crap.

Honestly, get yourself a BRZ and spend the rest on a supercharger and stuff, if you want.

It's reliable (so far!) and massive fun! Like an old skool Honda.



That's funny, the BRZ/FRS was next on my list. Not trying to be a brand snob, but I was getting used to the Acura service and dealership experience, so I was leaning towards another luxury make.

Also, since the FRS/BRZ are so new and in short supply, I wasn't really in the mood for dealing with any mark-up or dealer add-on crap. Though I agree, I would think the reliability would be good, but might be best to wait at least until the next model year.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2013 19:24
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What constitutes a failure? If a FEAD component fails, is that considered an engine failure even though it can still run? Water pump leak? AC? alternator? valve cover leak? Or are we talking about catastrophic "stranded on side of the road" type failures?
Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2013 20:01
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CarPhreakD wrote:
What constitutes a failure? If a FEAD component fails, is that considered an engine failure even though it can still run? Water pump leak? AC? alternator? valve cover leak? Or are we talking about catastrophic "stranded on side of the road" type failures?


In general, it goes beyond "stranded" failures. It means that the old engine is pulled and either rebuilt or replaced. Even if it runs to some extent.

That is the definition most warranty companies use.

I believe the term rebuild refers to any repair that involves separating the head from the block and replacement of items inside the block.

So anything that requires simply a valve job to fix would not be an engine replacement. Same for replacing a head gasket.

Another point is that some of these engines can't be "rebuilt" in the traditional sense. Porsche engines generally can't be rebuilt and must be replaced when they break. I believe there are issues with some BMWs as well for some issues.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2013 21:00
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Hondu wrote:
Also, since the FRS/BRZ are so new and in short supply, I wasn't really in the mood for dealing with any mark-up or dealer add-on crap. Though I agree, I would think the reliability would be good, but might be best to wait at least until the next model year.

I got mine for invoice, no additional fees. By far the easiest and best sales experience I have ever had. I did have to wait almost half a year though. After seeing pictures of Nick's 86 and test driving one, I was sold.

At least test drive one. It's no Acura for sure, but that's also a good thing in a lot of ways.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2013 06:21
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Dren wrote:
Hondu wrote:
Also, since the FRS/BRZ are so new and in short supply, I wasn't really in the mood for dealing with any mark-up or dealer add-on crap. Though I agree, I would think the reliability would be good, but might be best to wait at least until the next model year.

I got mine for invoice, no additional fees. By far the easiest and best sales experience I have ever had. I did have to wait almost half a year though. After seeing pictures of Nick's 86 and test driving one, I was sold.

At least test drive one. It's no Acura for sure, but that's also a good thing in a lot of ways.



Probably true, dat!

I think genuinely exceptional cars (like original Miatas, NSXs, S2000s, DC2 Integras, etc) that are so right straight out of the box, come along only a couple of times a decade. You have to take the opportunity whilst you can.

Having said that, there is a higher-performance 86 under development, a convertible, etc, etc. It seems as if Toyota has learned from Honda's history of consistently letting golden geese die through simply neglecting to feed them.




Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2013 07:12
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Dren wrote:
Hondu wrote:
Also, since the FRS/BRZ are so new and in short supply, I wasn't really in the mood for dealing with any mark-up or dealer add-on crap. Though I agree, I would think the reliability would be good, but might be best to wait at least until the next model year.

I got mine for invoice, no additional fees. By far the easiest and best sales experience I have ever had. I did have to wait almost half a year though. After seeing pictures of Nick's 86 and test driving one, I was sold.

At least test drive one. It's no Acura for sure, but that's also a good thing in a lot of ways.



Did you get the BRZ? Thank you for letting me know about your experience. I'll definitely go test drive one. I can probably wait a few months to get one if I have to, since I'm not in any hurry at the moment.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2013 08:21
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I understand your BRZ is better-equipped than an FR-S.

Ours are exactly the same (86 is BRZ-spec).

Dunno about warranty etc over there.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2013 18:03
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Bullwinkle wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
What constitutes a failure? If a FEAD component fails, is that considered an engine failure even though it can still run? Water pump leak? AC? alternator? valve cover leak? Or are we talking about catastrophic "stranded on side of the road" type failures?


In general, it goes beyond "stranded" failures. It means that the old engine is pulled and either rebuilt or replaced. Even if it runs to some extent.

That is the definition most warranty companies use.

I believe the term rebuild refers to any repair that involves separating the head from the block and replacement of items inside the block.

So anything that requires simply a valve job to fix would not be an engine replacement. Same for replacing a head gasket.

Another point is that some of these engines can't be "rebuilt" in the traditional sense. Porsche engines generally can't be rebuilt and must be replaced when they break. I believe there are issues with some BMWs as well for some issues.



In that case, that really skews the results. A head gasket failure CAN lead to you stranded on the side of the road, but it would not require an engine replacement. That doesn't mean that Honda has had a lower number of "catastrophic" (leave you on the side of the road) type occurrences because head gaskets aren't actually a typical Honda B or D engine strong suit.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2013 18:13
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Nick Graves wrote:
Dren wrote:
Hondu wrote:
Also, since the FRS/BRZ are so new and in short supply, I wasn't really in the mood for dealing with any mark-up or dealer add-on crap. Though I agree, I would think the reliability would be good, but might be best to wait at least until the next model year.

I got mine for invoice, no additional fees. By far the easiest and best sales experience I have ever had. I did have to wait almost half a year though. After seeing pictures of Nick's 86 and test driving one, I was sold.

At least test drive one. It's no Acura for sure, but that's also a good thing in a lot of ways.



Probably true, dat!

I think genuinely exceptional cars (like original Miatas, NSXs, S2000s, DC2 Integras, etc) that are so right straight out of the box, come along only a couple of times a decade. You have to take the opportunity whilst you can.

Having said that, there is a higher-performance 86 under development, a convertible, etc, etc. It seems as if Toyota has learned from Honda's history of consistently letting golden geese die through simply neglecting to feed them.






I'll believe it when I see it. The "confirmed" reports of the Toyobaru getting upgrades have been scattered at best. I would LOVE to see a hatch, however. That would be a nice modern 240SX upgrade.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2013 18:31
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Hondu wrote:
Did you get the BRZ? Thank you for letting me know about your experience. I'll definitely go test drive one. I can probably wait a few months to get one if I have to, since I'm not in any hurry at the moment.


Yes, the BRZ limited. The interior isn't anything like an Acura, but it's not horrible. I actually like the old school feel. Definitely drive one to see what you think. I had to test drive an FRS since it was easier to locate for a drive.

Nick, the BRZ here comes with the keyless entry, LED DRLs, alcantara/leather heated seats and a GPS unit. Oh, and the dual climate zone, which I don't really like.

rocky
Profile for rocky
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2013 18:38
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Given the model mix, this survey isn't really US relevant.

Why? We don't have Vauxhall, we don't have MG Rover (dead brands anyway in the UK) and we certainly don't have diesels that account for a HUGE percentage of sales in the UK.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-24-2013 10:05
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It still relates to the quality coming out of the companies. Shawn noted the turbo vs. NA stats. That is interesting in itself. It is likely a reason why Honda is resistant to turbos.
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-24-2013 11:31
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Dren wrote:
Hondu wrote:
Did you get the BRZ? Thank you for letting me know about your experience. I'll definitely go test drive one. I can probably wait a few months to get one if I have to, since I'm not in any hurry at the moment.


Yes, the BRZ limited. The interior isn't anything like an Acura, but it's not horrible. I actually like the old school feel. Definitely drive one to see what you think. I had to test drive an FRS since it was easier to locate for a drive.

Nick, the BRZ here comes with the keyless entry, LED DRLs, alcantara/leather heated seats and a GPS unit. Oh, and the dual climate zone, which I don't really like.



Sounds like ours - minus the GPS.

The CC works well, the Xenons are good (the 86 had the DRLs in the headlights & fogs in the foglights, where the DRLs are in the 'Roo) but if you prefer the simplicity (less to go wrong!) and lighter weight of the FR-S (which I think has slightly more fun handling too) then that's fine.

I'd kinda presumed from the Acura ref, Hondu might prefer the gadgets & luxury seats.

Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-24-2013 11:51
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Nick Graves wrote:
Dren wrote:
Hondu wrote:
Did you get the BRZ? Thank you for letting me know about your experience. I'll definitely go test drive one. I can probably wait a few months to get one if I have to, since I'm not in any hurry at the moment.


Yes, the BRZ limited. The interior isn't anything like an Acura, but it's not horrible. I actually like the old school feel. Definitely drive one to see what you think. I had to test drive an FRS since it was easier to locate for a drive.

Nick, the BRZ here comes with the keyless entry, LED DRLs, alcantara/leather heated seats and a GPS unit. Oh, and the dual climate zone, which I don't really like.



Sounds like ours - minus the GPS.

The CC works well, the Xenons are good (the 86 had the DRLs in the headlights & fogs in the foglights, where the DRLs are in the 'Roo) but if you prefer the simplicity (less to go wrong!) and lighter weight of the FR-S (which I think has slightly more fun handling too) then that's fine.

I'd kinda presumed from the Acura ref, Hondu might prefer the gadgets & luxury seats.



Yes Nick, you are correct. I was looking at the BRZ Limited. I see they also might bring out a new model with even more upgrades (wheels, etc.), so I might wait and see if that comes to fruition as well.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-24-2013 11:53
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CarPhreakD wrote:
In that case, that really skews the results. A head gasket failure CAN lead to you stranded on the side of the road, but it would not require an engine replacement. That doesn't mean that Honda has had a lower number of "catastrophic" (leave you on the side of the road) type occurrences because head gaskets aren't actually a typical Honda B or D engine strong suit.


I'm pretty sure the last Honda 4cyl to suffer notable head gasket failures was the 1988-1991 D16A6. That was the last Honda I4 to use fiber/composite head gaskets. Honda upgraded to 3 layer metal for the 1992 D16Z6 as well as offering a retrofit kit for older D-series engines. That was the last we heard of head gasket failures - unless you have a turbo....:)

SC

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-24-2013 18:48
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notyper wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
In that case, that really skews the results. A head gasket failure CAN lead to you stranded on the side of the road, but it would not require an engine replacement. That doesn't mean that Honda has had a lower number of "catastrophic" (leave you on the side of the road) type occurrences because head gaskets aren't actually a typical Honda B or D engine strong suit.


I'm pretty sure the last Honda 4cyl to suffer notable head gasket failures was the 1988-1991 D16A6. That was the last Honda I4 to use fiber/composite head gaskets. Honda upgraded to 3 layer metal for the 1992 D16Z6 as well as offering a retrofit kit for older D-series engines. That was the last we heard of head gasket failures - unless you have a turbo....:)

SC



From what I've been hearing there have been quite a few since then, at least until the K-series came along (keep in mind, "quite a few" in Honda terms tends to be lower than competing makes). It probably doesn't say much but the number of Hondas in the 24 hours of lemons that died due to head gaskets are pretty astronomical =) There's the issue of the area immediately around the cylinder bores lacking reinforcement and being "under"coated (not to mention the distortion at high revs in the D). Toyota went overkill in comparison by coating all the metal layers, on both sides on their newest engines. It's a bit overkill.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-24-2013 19:23
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Lemons? Heh, that might be the problem. :)

We've had guys go 4-5 seasons of Honda Challenge H4 on the same motor that was never opened up (D-series). I've never seen a B-series head gasket fail on an NA engine unless it had aftermarket sleeves (which tend to sink). Hell, we've made 900+ hp on a stock B-series head gasket.

SC

DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-25-2013 17:14
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Bullwinkle wrote:
By the way, this looks like it is the original article:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/62383/german-cars-among-worst-engine-failures



thanks for the link.

Here's another, with lists of both top and bottom ten brands.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9815860/German-cars-lose-out-in-reliability-survey.html

:)

DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-25-2013 17:18
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From the telegraph article
The company also pointed out the high cost of repair that can be associated with engine problems. In its highest claim, which was for a Range Rover Vogue, an engine failure cost 12,998.46.
Sterling pounds ....Oops!

DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-25-2013 17:38
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CarPhreakD wrote:
From what I've been hearing there have been quite a few since then, at least until the K-series came along (keep in mind, "quite a few" in Honda terms tends to be lower than competing makes). It probably doesn't say much but the number of Hondas in the 24 hours of lemons that died due to head gaskets are pretty astronomical =) There's the issue of the area immediately around the cylinder bores lacking reinforcement and being "under"coated (not to mention the distortion at high revs in the D). Toyota went overkill in comparison by coating all the metal layers, on both sides on their newest engines. It's a bit overkill.


Get real.
Who is going to warrant engine failure of race cars???

DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-25-2013 17:41
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Nick Graves wrote:
Although Wrong Way are now moving to GM planks ....


I'm doubtful. You need to believe:
- either GM would allow SAIC to do so (really???);
- or SAIC has to steal it from GM under GM's watch (again, really??? Why would Akerson allow this to happen under his watch?)

Any link?

DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-25-2013 18:16
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rocky wrote:
Given the model mix, this survey isn't really US relevant.

Why? We don't have Vauxhall, we don't have MG Rover (dead brands anyway in the UK) and we certainly don't have diesels that account for a HUGE percentage of sales in the UK.


Don't you know GM recycles its planks?

May be you need to take a long, deep look at Buick Regal.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-26-2013 09:05
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DrWhiner wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
From what I've been hearing there have been quite a few since then, at least until the K-series came along (keep in mind, "quite a few" in Honda terms tends to be lower than competing makes). It probably doesn't say much but the number of Hondas in the 24 hours of lemons that died due to head gaskets are pretty astronomical =) There's the issue of the area immediately around the cylinder bores lacking reinforcement and being "under"coated (not to mention the distortion at high revs in the D). Toyota went overkill in comparison by coating all the metal layers, on both sides on their newest engines. It's a bit overkill.


Get real.
Who is going to warrant engine failure of race cars???



DrWhiner, you need to speak to DrSarcasm...

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-26-2013 12:27
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DrWhiner wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
Although Wrong Way are now moving to GM planks ....


I'm doubtful. You need to believe:
- either GM would allow SAIC to do so (really???);
- or SAIC has to steal it from GM under GM's watch (again, really??? Why would Akerson allow this to happen under his watch?)

Any link?



Are you Woody Allen and they're taking off the tin foil? Shanghai has had a agreements with GM for decades!

If you check the 950 on Jimmy Wales' Liepedia, it will confirm which plank it uses.





DrWhiner
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Re: Manufacturer Engine Failure Rate    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-26-2013 16:13
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Nick Graves wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
Although Wrong Way are now moving to GM planks ....


I'm doubtful. You need to believe:
- either GM would allow SAIC to do so (really???);
- or SAIC has to steal it from GM under GM's watch (again, really??? Why would Akerson allow this to happen under his watch?)

Any link?



Are you Woody Allen and they're taking off the tin foil? Shanghai has had a agreements with GM for decades!

If you check the 950 on Jimmy Wales' Liepedia, it will confirm which plank it uses.


Should I really care whom you think I'm? Treat me whatever way you want, the only thing I learned from ToV is a thick skin. Haha.

Yes, Shanghai Motor have an auto JV w/ GM for decades, but it's another thing that GM would allow its JV partners to steal its IP from right under its watch, won't you agree?

P.S. I doubt many ToVers can decipher your (jumbled up) coded words.


 
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