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  TOV News > Acura to Debut Three New Vehicles at the 2012 North American International Auto Show > > Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted?

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TurkMan71
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Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-12-2011 01:40
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No big surprises:

ILX to replace TSX
RDX pretty much becomes a CRV with a v6

I have to say, I'm a little underwhelmed...I hope they find a good balance of 'appropriate' tech, efficiency, style/desirability, value, plus something more than what would make them just 'like an upmarket Honda'.

"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."

With that last sentence, is it just me, or did that sound a bit condescending? Don't think I'd ever hear BMW talk about their customers the same way...

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111212/OEM03/312129953/1115

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-12-2011 12:35
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A little; it presumes we are all equally stupid & incapable of learning.

I only bought the 4WS 'Lude to find out what all the fuss was about. Now I think it's brilliant.

That it was so underrated by most journalists (apart from LJKS) is really where Hondura's problem lies.

hondacura
Profile for hondacura
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-12-2011 12:56
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TurkMan71 wrote:
No big surprises:

ILX to replace TSX
RDX pretty much becomes a CRV with a v6

I have to say, I'm a little underwhelmed...I hope they find a good balance of 'appropriate' tech, efficiency, style/desirability, value, plus something more than what would make them just 'like an upmarket Honda'.

"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."

With that last sentence, is it just me, or did that sound a bit condescending? Don't think I'd ever hear BMW talk about their customers the same way...

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111212/OEM03/312129953/1115




Just another person bitching. Honda can't do nothing to satisfy you. Stop wasting your time.

intune
Profile for intune
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-12-2011 13:37
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TurkMan71 wrote:
[...]
"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."

With that last sentence, is it just me, or did that sound a bit condescending? Don't think I'd ever hear BMW talk about their customers the same way...

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111212/OEM03/312129953/1115

It does sound a little condescending, but I think SH-AWD in the RDX and RL do fall into that category of waste, in that most drivers will never exploit the benefits of the system over a more traditional AWD set-up. In the 6MT TL however, it makes more sense, considering its sporting ambitions.

saitamahonda
Profile for saitamahonda
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-12-2011 15:25
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Nick Graves wrote:
A little; it presumes we are all equally stupid & incapable of learning.

I only bought the 4WS 'Lude to find out what all the fuss was about. Now I think it's brilliant.

That it was so underrated by most journalists (apart from LJKS) is really where Hondura's problem lies.



Argument could go both ways.
Even most journalists or automotive editors haven't an appreciation for MOST of the tech in cars. Evident in the touting of remedial/resurrected technologies like DI, soft-touch(instead of durability longevity, both known issues with DI and Soft-touch).

Most consumers are actually ignorant when it comes to buying cars. Commercials, peers, and design play a bigger role in the decision of about 95% of buyers than technology these days. Perceived luxury plays a bigger role than tech. Example: consumers are too busy with their daily lives that they don't care that there is a mechanical fallback to Honda's electric steering, where as some brands don't. Ask any consumer and they wouldn't be able to tell which makes/car do have electric steering and which ones do have mechanical backups. Problem is, brands like Hyundai are getting away without such a backup and allows for the cars to be sold cheaper, but when an electrical glitch occurs, you cannot steer at all. Honda would never let such a thing happen. Honda needs to make emphasize these points where it goes beyond what other brands. (Honda steering wheels don't come off the dash like Hyundais do!)

Personally, the criteria that Acura needs to work on is obvious:
1. Torque Steer
2. Rearward visibility (Acura designers apparently never look back over their shoulders or they can see through blindspots)
3. RDX- rear door opening. IT'S TOO DAMN SMALL. Getting into the backseat of the RDX is just as stupid as getting into the rear of the ZDX. Getting into and out of the rear door of my 02 CR-V (even with a baby seat) is easier than getting into the RDX rear.
4. Road Noise. Use quieter,softer tires. with less concern on tire-wear. Let the consumer deal with replacing them. Sell the car with the stickiest/quietest tires instead of the stiffest/noisiest(but longer lasting).
5. Plenum. Don't get rid of it per say- I like the side-history behind the plenum(first used in the acura NSX engine), but make it more Honda like. Go with the three blade plenum, a grille used for the Accord Tourer Concept.




TurkMan71
Profile for TurkMan71
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-12-2011 18:16
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hondacura wrote:
TurkMan71 wrote:
No big surprises:

ILX to replace TSX
RDX pretty much becomes a CRV with a v6

I have to say, I'm a little underwhelmed...I hope they find a good balance of 'appropriate' tech, efficiency, style/desirability, value, plus something more than what would make them just 'like an upmarket Honda'.

"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."

With that last sentence, is it just me, or did that sound a bit condescending? Don't think I'd ever hear BMW talk about their customers the same way...

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111212/OEM03/312129953/1115




Just another person bitching. Honda can't do nothing to satisfy you. Stop wasting your time.




Acura sucks=bitching

A little underwhelmed=a little underwhelmed

We're not talking about Honda, we're talking about Acura, you know, the upscale luxury/performance brand...

I'm intrigued by the info for the NSX, a little underwhelmed but hopeful about the RL, ILX, and RDX - don't have enough info to make the final call. But if Acura offers little more of the same they've been offering for years, then I will stop wasting my time and move on, as I'm sure many will do the same. Happy?

iutodd
Profile for iutodd
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-12-2011 19:47
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TurkMan71 wrote:
No big surprises:

ILX to replace TSX
RDX pretty much becomes a CRV with a v6

I have to say, I'm a little underwhelmed...I hope they find a good balance of 'appropriate' tech, efficiency, style/desirability, value, plus something more than what would make them just 'like an upmarket Honda'.

"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."

With that last sentence, is it just me, or did that sound a bit condescending? Don't think I'd ever hear BMW talk about their customers the same way...

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111212/OEM03/312129953/1115



So you're underwhelmed that Acura is probably going to release FOUR new vehicles in 2012? The ILX and the RDX are definitely coming in 2012 - we're going to definitely see the NSX and probably get the RL/Legend at some point in 2012. Oh and the MDX is slated for an FMC in 2012 and the TL is slated for an FMC in 2013. 18 months from now Acura will be be completely different. What would it take for you to be excited?

I do agree that in some ways we don't know enough about any of the products to truly be excited because we can only guess at engine specs and can only, at this point, rely on Jeff's observations and ideals for forming our opinions.

I agree with the R&D guy. You can't sell a product based on technology customer's can't understand or use properly. This is why CR hates MyFordTouch...it's almost a gimmick or something and the learning curve is very steep. The bottom line is that if a customer doesn't understand something then they won't use it; which is to say that it is going to waste. And if anything the R&D guy is alluding to the idea that driving a car should be a simple, pure, enjoyable experience where the technology isn't so overwhelming as to mar the pleasure of driving a car.

cksi1372
Profile for cksi1372
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-12-2011 20:54
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iutodd wrote:
TurkMan71 wrote:
No big surprises:

ILX to replace TSX
RDX pretty much becomes a CRV with a v6

I have to say, I'm a little underwhelmed...I hope they find a good balance of 'appropriate' tech, efficiency, style/desirability, value, plus something more than what would make them just 'like an upmarket Honda'.

"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."

With that last sentence, is it just me, or did that sound a bit condescending? Don't think I'd ever hear BMW talk about their customers the same way...

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111212/OEM03/312129953/1115



So you're underwhelmed that Acura is probably going to release FOUR new vehicles in 2012? The ILX and the RDX are definitely coming in 2012 - we're going to definitely see the NSX and probably get the RL/Legend at some point in 2012. Oh and the MDX is slated for an FMC in 2012 and the TL is slated for an FMC in 2013. 18 months from now Acura will be be completely different. What would it take for you to be excited?

I do agree that in some ways we don't know enough about any of the products to truly be excited because we can only guess at engine specs and can only, at this point, rely on Jeff's observations and ideals for forming our opinions....



I think the problem is the "faithful" have been promised "exciting news" in the past for Acura and been let down so many times, many are skeptical...leading to being "underwhelmed" until Acura shows some damn good proof.

ILX...could be just a "souped up Civic", RDX, been there, seen that, NSX promised before and nothing/shelved, RL...uhmmm, yeah, still waiting, MDX is about the only thing exciting to me in the lineup, TL, another disaster initially, until they fixed the grill, IMO.

Again, the proof is in the pudding at this point and I hope they prove me and all the other "underwhelmed" wrong. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that. I would love to come back to Acura and as a huge H/A fan, I hope they do knock our socks off in the next year or two. At this point, however, I won't be holding my breath....sorry to say.

Ganplosive
Profile for Ganplosive
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-12-2011 22:22
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Honestly, it's the dudes opinion. He FEELS underwhelmed and insulted, so be it.

You're entitled to think the way you want, but it's really is getting a little old coming on here just to see people bitching about "no surprises"? Really? Lemme take a wild guess -

Oh this car will have a steering wheel that controls the front 2 wheels and will have a total of 4 on the car. It'll have a couple doors, and seats inside. Pretty much just another car. Nothing I've never seen before.

"I would LOVE TO COME BACK TO A / H." Give it up. Forreals, right now. The Honda / Acura that many of you have come to love are gone, FOREVER. People constantly coming on here to talk about how they would love to get back into the brand, get back into what Honda was known for.

Acura just announced a range topping NSX, and a entry level ILX. If news like this still makes you feel underwhelmed, then there's nothing anyone can do for you, short of giving you one for free. I've been underwhelmed many times before as well, if not flat out disappointed but I just don't come around here anymore, complaining about it like it gets me off. It's falling on deaf years and just makes my entire outlook on life a little more sad. Go out and get some sunshine, it'll do some good. Life is bigger and greater than Acura's lineup in the dealership.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-13-2011 08:53
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saitamahonda wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
A little; it presumes we are all equally stupid & incapable of learning.

I only bought the 4WS 'Lude to find out what all the fuss was about. Now I think it's brilliant.

That it was so underrated by most journalists (apart from LJKS) is really where Hondura's problem lies.



Argument could go both ways.
Even most journalists or automotive editors haven't an appreciation for MOST of the tech in cars. Evident in the touting of remedial/resurrected technologies like DI, soft-touch(instead of durability longevity, both known issues with DI and Soft-touch).

Most consumers are actually ignorant when it comes to buying cars. Commercials, peers, and design play a bigger role in the decision of about 95% of buyers than technology these days. Perceived luxury plays a bigger role than tech. Example: consumers are too busy with their daily lives that they don't care that there is a mechanical fallback to Honda's electric steering, where as some brands don't. Ask any consumer and they wouldn't be able to tell which makes/car do have electric steering and which ones do have mechanical backups. Problem is, brands like Hyundai are getting away without such a backup and allows for the cars to be sold cheaper, but when an electrical glitch occurs, you cannot steer at all. Honda would never let such a thing happen. Honda needs to make emphasize these points where it goes beyond what other brands. (Honda steering wheels don't come off the dash like Hyundais do!)

Personally, the criteria that Acura needs to work on is obvious:
1. Torque Steer
2. Rearward visibility (Acura designers apparently never look back over their shoulders or they can see through blindspots)
3. RDX- rear door opening. IT'S TOO DAMN SMALL. Getting into the backseat of the RDX is just as stupid as getting into the rear of the ZDX. Getting into and out of the rear door of my 02 CR-V (even with a baby seat) is easier than getting into the RDX rear.
4. Road Noise. Use quieter,softer tires. with less concern on tire-wear. Let the consumer deal with replacing them. Sell the car with the stickiest/quietest tires instead of the stiffest/noisiest(but longer lasting).
5. Plenum. Don't get rid of it per say- I like the side-history behind the plenum(first used in the acura NSX engine), but make it more Honda like. Go with the three blade plenum, a grille used for the Accord Tourer Concept.






I think it's the same point - the reason the consumers are so ignorant is because the hacks are so ignorant. I think few of them have the necessary level of technical knowledge, which is why they frequently write such gibberish.

I accept there is a problem with SHAWD (it works best under power) whereas 4WS is lighter & works independent of power, but it's up to Honda to demonstrate this, rather than simply give up. When ever did they advertise a Prelude/JDM Accord doing the infamous 'elk test'?

BTW; I understood that Steering & braking by wire is prohibited - or is that not what you meant?


TurkMan71
Profile for TurkMan71
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-14-2011 07:52
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iutodd wrote:
TurkMan71 wrote:
No big surprises:

ILX to replace TSX
RDX pretty much becomes a CRV with a v6

I have to say, I'm a little underwhelmed...I hope they find a good balance of 'appropriate' tech, efficiency, style/desirability, value, plus something more than what would make them just 'like an upmarket Honda'.

"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."

With that last sentence, is it just me, or did that sound a bit condescending? Don't think I'd ever hear BMW talk about their customers the same way...

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111212/OEM03/312129953/1115



So you're underwhelmed that Acura is probably going to release FOUR new vehicles in 2012?




Don't get me wrong - I'm very excited that Acura finally has new and interesting products coming out. I question if it is healthy when product cadence has four intros in one year (so does that mean Acura's line ages at the same time without any little pick-me ups along the way?).

But I'm still underwhelmed by some of the new products from what I know so far (still waiting for the game changer RL that was promised to us in the last FMC, ILX/RDX seem to have taken two steps back one step forward when considering Acura's history...I hope I'm wrong)...




TurkMan71
Profile for TurkMan71
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-14-2011 08:11
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Ganplosive wrote:
You're entitled to think the way you want, but it's really is getting a little old coming on here just to see people bitching about "no surprises"? Really? Lemme take a wild guess -

Oh this car will have a steering wheel that controls the front 2 wheels and will have a total of 4 on the car. It'll have a couple doors, and seats inside. Pretty much just another car. Nothing I've never seen before.



Your facetious attempt to belittle my past disappointment with Acura is LAME.



Ganplosive wrote:
"I would LOVE TO COME BACK TO A / H." Give it up. Forreals, right now. The Honda / Acura that many of you have come to love are gone, FOREVER. People constantly coming on here to talk about how they would love to get back into the brand, get back into what Honda was known for.

Acura just announced a range topping NSX, and a entry level ILX. If news like this still makes you feel underwhelmed, then there's nothing anyone can do for you, short of giving you one for free. I've been underwhelmed many times before as well, if not flat out disappointed but I just don't come around here anymore, complaining about it like it gets me off. It's falling on deaf years and just makes my entire outlook on life a little more sad. Go out and get some sunshine, it'll do some good. Life is bigger and greater than Acura's lineup in the dealership.



Is it falling on deaf 'years'? I certainly got your dander all up and pissy. If anything I contribute the latest move by Acura in part to people like me saying: 'Hey Acura, WTF?!'

If you can't constructively criticize on a Honda/Acura forum, then where can you? Church? An Attorney's office? I wouldn't blame some fans to do just that after some of the goose eggs we've gotten from our favorite car maker...

And let's see how the actual product comes out, if ever, before we get too excited with Acura's transformation into a real player in the luxury/sport segment - I've been around for a while on ToV, and a healthy dose of skepticism seems appropriate when dealing with Acura of late.

Oh and thanks for the little pep talk, do you charge by the hour? Talk about condescending...jeez




iutodd
Profile for iutodd
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-17-2011 20:52
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TurkMan71 wrote:
iutodd wrote:
TurkMan71 wrote:
No big surprises:

ILX to replace TSX
RDX pretty much becomes a CRV with a v6

I have to say, I'm a little underwhelmed...I hope they find a good balance of 'appropriate' tech, efficiency, style/desirability, value, plus something more than what would make them just 'like an upmarket Honda'.

"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."

With that last sentence, is it just me, or did that sound a bit condescending? Don't think I'd ever hear BMW talk about their customers the same way...

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111212/OEM03/312129953/1115



So you're underwhelmed that Acura is probably going to release FOUR new vehicles in 2012?




Don't get me wrong - I'm very excited that Acura finally has new and interesting products coming out. I question if it is healthy when product cadence has four intros in one year (so does that mean Acura's line ages at the same time without any little pick-me ups along the way?).

But I'm still underwhelmed by some of the new products from what I know so far (still waiting for the game changer RL that was promised to us in the last FMC, ILX/RDX seem to have taken two steps back one step forward when considering Acura's history...I hope I'm wrong)...



I think the Lehman Brother's crisis really fucked Acura for the last 3.5 years because the RWD/V8/Bigger RL stuff got canceled, the production HSV-010 got canceled....and the ZDX got made. It was a perfect fuck storm.

I think the biggest issue with the ILX and RDX is that they probably won't get any Earth Dreams Tech engines until MMCs in three years (meaning they will be among the last to get them) - unless Acura/Honda is holding back information about the v6 in the RDX. I don't think the ILX needs to have a crazy amount of HP to be successful, but if the next Accord is attractive, a bit smaller than the current gen and the upper trims of the Accord are similarly priced to the ILX AND the Accord has the more advanced engines/trannies ...who would buy the ILX?

All that goes out the window though if the ILX gets the hybrid powertrain found in the CR-Z iCF...which should be a tremendous amount of fun to drive AND would be an amazing send-off to IMA. Plus the power figures would scale up nicely: 2.0 ~ 155 hp, 1.5L Hybrid: 173 hp, 2.4L: 210 hp. That's an engine lineup I can get behind and get vaguely excited about (unless the 2.0L has a 5AT attached to it.)

integrator
Profile for integrator
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-18-2011 19:05
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@iutodd. You mentioned that you think the lower end Acura's wont get the Earth Dreams stuff til last. What I'm wondering is whether you think this is a mis-step by Acura. I tend to think buyers in this $30-40k range are the ones that demand the newer tech early on, and less so with the higher end models (who are more conservative?). Just my guesses of course, so I'm throwing it out there since you raised the issue to the forum.

I know WHY Acura is doing it... it impacts the lowest mileage vehicles first (and the NSX??? if it comes into being) which helps them with CAFE regs.

Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-19-2011 14:32
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integrator wrote:
@iutodd. You mentioned that you think the lower end Acura's wont get the Earth Dreams stuff til last. What I'm wondering is whether you think this is a mis-step by Acura. I tend to think buyers in this $30-40k range are the ones that demand the newer tech early on, and less so with the higher end models (who are more conservative?). Just my guesses of course, so I'm throwing it out there since you raised the issue to the forum.

I know WHY Acura is doing it... it impacts the lowest mileage vehicles first (and the NSX??? if it comes into being) which helps them with CAFE regs.


I think its rolling out as it's (generally) ready. Also, to the point about the higher models getting it first. It may have something to do with the marketing windfall of having cutting edge tech 'trickle' down to other models. For example, the NSX had a lot of things that we 'sold' off of when showing Integras, even if the connection was tenuous at best. But certain concepts carried over nicely, VTEC, use of aluminum, wishbones, projector headlamps etc. So introducing the newest tech on the ILX first would have journo's and forum dwellers complaining that the new RL uses that same tech as the Civic (or something to that effect)

CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: Underwhelmed...a little insulted? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-19-2011 19:15
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integrator wrote:
@iutodd. You mentioned that you think the lower end Acura's wont get the Earth Dreams stuff til last. What I'm wondering is whether you think this is a mis-step by Acura. I tend to think buyers in this $30-40k range are the ones that demand the newer tech early on, and less so with the higher end models (who are more conservative?). Just my guesses of course, so I'm throwing it out there since you raised the issue to the forum.

I know WHY Acura is doing it... it impacts the lowest mileage vehicles first (and the NSX??? if it comes into being) which helps them with CAFE regs.




It would make more sense to offer the Earth Dreams engines in the Acuras first as they are lower in volume sales wise and it would give Acura a chance to slowly ramp up production and then slowly implement the engines in other models. It's the same approach Honda/Acura did with the 6AT.



~Patrick


 
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