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TOV Forums > TSX > > Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?

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F148VR
Profile for F148VR
End of TSX?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2011 23:29
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Just came across an article in Automotive News that suggested the TSX may be phased out after 2013. The reasoning given is that the TL replacement will be downsized in order to further differentiate from the RL. But with the TSX being not much smaller than the current TL, it simply doesn't make sense to keep both.

I just happen to have my 04 TSX in for service at the dealer, and my service advisor more or less comfirmed what was in the article when I brought this up.

I guess my hope for a manual TSX wagon is fading fast...
99SI
Profile for 99SI
Re: End of TSX?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-12-2011 08:37
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While I don't like the idea I could see it. Acura has 3 cars that are too close in size powertrains etc... I could see the TSX turning into a global accord and 2013 would be the perfect time. Meaning the next accord would be the former TSX in the us.
duncan
Profile for duncan
Re: End of TSX?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-12-2011 12:34
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Actually what would make more sense is dumping the RL and moving the TL and TSX further upmarket so there's enough room between the new sub-TSX and the TSX. The TSX sells almost as well as the TL, so why would anyone get rid of it in favour of the RL which practically has to be given away? Unless the new RL can legitimately compete with the higher trims of the 5 Series, E Class, GS, A6, etc, then there's no point in keeping it anymore since the TL already competes against the lower trims of these other cars, making the current RL redundant already.
siegen
Profile for siegen
Re: End of TSX?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-12-2011 18:01
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99SI wrote:
I could see the TSX turning into a global accord and 2013 would be the perfect time. Meaning the next accord would be the former TSX in the us.


Interesting idea. I had thought for a while that they might get rid of the RL, let the TL increase in size, and have a RSX/TSX/TL lineup. I guess it could swing both ways, and having a standardized Accord for the world would certainly have its benefits.

Whatever they end up doing, I just hope they offer more 6MTs.
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2011 00:21
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Now, please keep in mind I'm not talking about the "TSX" nameplate, but "the TSX as a global luxury sedan with no disproportionate size".

My feeling though (assuming the increasing rumours of the dismal of one of Acura sedans are accurate) is the TL will be gone.

Why?
- With the current generation of TSX, Honda has
a) Introduced a V6 variant (stepping into TL territory)
b) outsold the TL (obviously helped by slower price-point, but that will partly be solved by the new sub-TSX entry)
c) Introduced a wagon
d) Been introduced in China (world's largest market)
- By comparison the TL remains a nearly exclusively NA car, which has seen no real expansion nor focus whatsoever, and has dangerously stepped into RL territory (Honda's global flagship).

Now, given the NA history of the TL nameplate, it could be that Honda decides to keep it for Acura; again though, I'm not discussing nameplates but cars.

So here is my guess on the future Acura line-up.
- Introduce IL sub-TSX car
- Drop the current TL (as a concept)
- Drop TSX nameplate for Acura and introduce next Euro/JP_Accord-Chinese Spirior as the new TL.
- Bring up revised RL (with whatever 2-letter name).

On the overall positioning / meaning of it:
- Right now Honda has 3 sedans where there is only room for 2 (TSX-TL-RL). The reason for that was Honda Fukui-era aim to become a "Tier1 luxury brand". Under that reasoning the RL was intended to become Lexus LS/BMW 7series challenger, boosting FR-based platform and V8/V10 power. Those plans have changed, and Honda is taking Acura back to where it started "smart luxury". I.e. offering more luxury than mainstream brands (like "Honda") provide, but without incurring into the excess and pompe of image-based true luxury makers.
- So the new RL will essentially abandon plans to take the brand significantly higher up, and would represent (at most) a small increase with respect to the current model. It will take from where high-end TLs start now and finish up a bit over the current RL.
- The TL becomes then redundant, as the TSX can well take over it. Prices of the new TL-branded global luxury sedan start from mid-TSX level now to mid TL-level.
- The iL lowers Acura access point to RSX level, and ends up about mid current TSX-one.
- Honda has therefore 3 sedans better spaced in terms of both size and price; one less slow-selling (TL) car to make.
- From now on the X suffix becomes SUV specific, and all sedans are named with "2-letter" nameplates (iL, TL, RL). Wonder if those may change, but you get the point.

And that's my guess, take it FWIW.
Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2011 10:56
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danielgr wrote:
Now, please keep in mind I'm not talking about the "TSX" nameplate, but "the TSX as a global luxury sedan with no disproportionate size".

My feeling though (assuming the increasing rumours of the dismal of one of Acura sedans are accurate) is the TL will be gone.

Why?
- With the current generation of TSX, Honda has
a) Introduced a V6 variant (stepping into TL territory)
b) outsold the TL (obviously helped by slower price-point, but that will partly be solved by the new sub-TSX entry)
c) Introduced a wagon
d) Been introduced in China (world's largest market)
- By comparison the TL remains a nearly exclusively NA car, which has seen no real expansion nor focus whatsoever, and has dangerously stepped into RL territory (Honda's global flagship).

Now, given the NA history of the TL nameplate, it could be that Honda decides to keep it for Acura; again though, I'm not discussing nameplates but cars.

So here is my guess on the future Acura line-up.
- Introduce IL sub-TSX car
- Drop the current TL (as a concept)
- Drop TSX nameplate for Acura and introduce next Euro/JP_Accord-Chinese Spirior as the new TL.
- Bring up revised RL (with whatever 2-letter name).

On the overall positioning / meaning of it:
- Right now Honda has 3 sedans where there is only room for 2 (TSX-TL-RL). The reason for that was Honda Fukui-era aim to become a "Tier1 luxury brand". Under that reasoning the RL was intended to become Lexus LS/BMW 7series challenger, boosting FR-based platform and V8/V10 power. Those plans have changed, and Honda is taking Acura back to where it started "smart luxury". I.e. offering more luxury than mainstream brands (like "Honda") provide, but without incurring into the excess and pompe of image-based true luxury makers.
- So the new RL will essentially abandon plans to take the brand significantly higher up, and would represent (at most) a small increase with respect to the current model. It will take from where high-end TLs start now and finish up a bit over the current RL.
- The TL becomes then redundant, as the TSX can well take over it. Prices of the new TL-branded global luxury sedan start from mid-TSX level now to mid TL-level.
- The iL lowers Acura access point to RSX level, and ends up about mid current TSX-one.
- Honda has therefore 3 sedans better spaced in terms of both size and price; one less slow-selling (TL) car to make.
- From now on the X suffix becomes SUV specific, and all sedans are named with "2-letter" nameplates (iL, TL, RL). Wonder if those may change, but you get the point.

And that's my guess, take it FWIW.


Your theory makes no sense. The tl outside of the legend has been Acura most recognized car anfor years was the sales leader. Whether for looks or price this generation is not doing as well but the name is recognized. Plus the TL is sold wherever Acura is including china
iutodd
Profile for iutodd
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2011 11:20
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danielgr wrote:
Now, please keep in mind I'm not talking about the "TSX" nameplate, but "the TSX as a global luxury sedan with no disproportionate size".

My feeling though (assuming the increasing rumours of the dismal of one of Acura sedans are accurate) is the TL will be gone.

Why?
- With the current generation of TSX, Honda has
a) Introduced a V6 variant (stepping into TL territory)
b) outsold the TL (obviously helped by slower price-point, but that will partly be solved by the new sub-TSX entry)
c) Introduced a wagon
d) Been introduced in China (world's largest market)
- By comparison the TL remains a nearly exclusively NA car, which has seen no real expansion nor focus whatsoever, and has dangerously stepped into RL territory (Honda's global flagship).

Now, given the NA history of the TL nameplate, it could be that Honda decides to keep it for Acura; again though, I'm not discussing nameplates but cars.

So here is my guess on the future Acura line-up.
- Introduce IL sub-TSX car
- Drop the current TL (as a concept)
- Drop TSX nameplate for Acura and introduce next Euro/JP_Accord-Chinese Spirior as the new TL.
- Bring up revised RL (with whatever 2-letter name).

On the overall positioning / meaning of it:
- Right now Honda has 3 sedans where there is only room for 2 (TSX-TL-RL). The reason for that was Honda Fukui-era aim to become a "Tier1 luxury brand". Under that reasoning the RL was intended to become Lexus LS/BMW 7series challenger, boosting FR-based platform and V8/V10 power. Those plans have changed, and Honda is taking Acura back to where it started "smart luxury". I.e. offering more luxury than mainstream brands (like "Honda") provide, but without incurring into the excess and pompe of image-based true luxury makers.
- So the new RL will essentially abandon plans to take the brand significantly higher up, and would represent (at most) a small increase with respect to the current model. It will take from where high-end TLs start now and finish up a bit over the current RL.
- The TL becomes then redundant, as the TSX can well take over it. Prices of the new TL-branded global luxury sedan start from mid-TSX level now to mid TL-level.
- The iL lowers Acura access point to RSX level, and ends up about mid current TSX-one.
- Honda has therefore 3 sedans better spaced in terms of both size and price; one less slow-selling (TL) car to make.
- From now on the X suffix becomes SUV specific, and all sedans are named with "2-letter" nameplates (iL, TL, RL). Wonder if those may change, but you get the point.

And that's my guess, take it FWIW.



This makes sense - if they've trademarked "IL" then why keep the TSX nameplate?

The pricing would look something like this then(?):

IL: $25K - $33K
TL: $33K - $43K
RL: $45K+

Also I just had this thought: Acura needs to bring back the Type-S moniker. I think they should bring it back with turbos. Put the K23t in the TL, put the (rumored) 1.6L turbo in the IL, and put a detuned version of the new indy car 2.2L twin-turbo V-6 in the RL (think Taurus SHO levels of power here). I know it's a shitty pipe dream that will never happen but I think Acura needs to do something like this or they'll never ever get anywhere.
iutodd
Profile for iutodd
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2011 11:25
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Mikeydred wrote:
Your theory makes no sense. The tl outside of the legend has been Acura most recognized car anfor years was the sales leader. Whether for looks or price this generation is not doing as well but the name is recognized. Plus the TL is sold wherever Acura is including china


Read his post again. He is saying that the TL nameplate will stay around and the TSX nameplate will get dropped.
Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2011 12:40
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iutodd wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
Your theory makes no sense. The tl outside of the legend has been Acura most recognized car anfor years was the sales leader. Whether for looks or price this generation is not doing as well but the name is recognized. Plus the TL is sold wherever Acura is including china

Read his post again. He is saying that the TL nameplate will stay around and the TSX nameplate will get dropped.


No he's not he clearly calls the tl redundant. I read it all right, the title was even changed, did you catch that? Although I believe getting rid if the TSX is not a way to achieve their lofty goal of 200k anually it makes sense. The TSX is the only sedan curently win x extension,which should be reserved for the crossovers. Which means the next nsx and rsx should they reappear should be named something else. While we are on the subject. What the he'll is an IL, they can do better than that!
Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2011 12:53
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Mikeydred wrote:
iutodd wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
Your theory makes no sense. The tl outside of the legend has been Acura most recognized car anfor years was the sales leader. Whether for looks or price this generation is not doing as well but the name is recognized. Plus the TL is sold wherever Acura is including china

Read his post again. He is saying that the TL nameplate will stay around and the TSX nameplate will get dropped.


No he's not he clearly calls the tl redundant. I read it all right, the title was even changed, did you catch that? Although I believe getting rid if the TSX is not a way to achieve their lofty goal of 200k anually it makes sense. The TSX is the only sedan curently win x extension,which should be reserved for the crossovers. Which means the next nsx and rsx should they reappear should be named something else. While we are on the subject. What the he'll is an IL, they can do better than that!


Ok my apologies, drop the current concept tl and then retroduce as the current TSX. I hope not that would be a real step backwards after the time it took to make the tl exclusive to Acura. I see all Acura being designed and made here in US. That will allow them to offer more bang than the germans and jp rivals, the key will be how much content they will put in their lineup, I do not see them going backwards in that department either. Acura still wants to be known as luxury, its just their approach will not be high output engines and exclusive platforms. I think time will tell and we just have to wait and see
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2011 20:33
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Mikeydred wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Now, please keep in mind I'm not talking about the "TSX" nameplate, but "the TSX as a global luxury sedan with no disproportionate size".

My feeling though (assuming the increasing rumours of the dismal of one of Acura sedans are accurate) is the TL will be gone.

Why?
- With the current generation of TSX, Honda has
a) Introduced a V6 variant (stepping into TL territory)
b) outsold the TL (obviously helped by slower price-point, but that will partly be solved by the new sub-TSX entry)
c) Introduced a wagon
d) Been introduced in China (world's largest market)
- By comparison the TL remains a nearly exclusively NA car, which has seen no real expansion nor focus whatsoever, and has dangerously stepped into RL territory (Honda's global flagship).

Now, given the NA history of the TL nameplate, it could be that Honda decides to keep it for Acura; again though, I'm not discussing nameplates but cars.

So here is my guess on the future Acura line-up.
- Introduce IL sub-TSX car
- Drop the current TL (as a concept)
- Drop TSX nameplate for Acura and introduce next Euro/JP_Accord-Chinese Spirior as the new TL.
- Bring up revised RL (with whatever 2-letter name).

On the overall positioning / meaning of it:
- Right now Honda has 3 sedans where there is only room for 2 (TSX-TL-RL). The reason for that was Honda Fukui-era aim to become a "Tier1 luxury brand". Under that reasoning the RL was intended to become Lexus LS/BMW 7series challenger, boosting FR-based platform and V8/V10 power. Those plans have changed, and Honda is taking Acura back to where it started "smart luxury". I.e. offering more luxury than mainstream brands (like "Honda") provide, but without incurring into the excess and pompe of image-based true luxury makers.
- So the new RL will essentially abandon plans to take the brand significantly higher up, and would represent (at most) a small increase with respect to the current model. It will take from where high-end TLs start now and finish up a bit over the current RL.
- The TL becomes then redundant, as the TSX can well take over it. Prices of the new TL-branded global luxury sedan start from mid-TSX level now to mid TL-level.
- The iL lowers Acura access point to RSX level, and ends up about mid current TSX-one.
- Honda has therefore 3 sedans better spaced in terms of both size and price; one less slow-selling (TL) car to make.
- From now on the X suffix becomes SUV specific, and all sedans are named with "2-letter" nameplates (iL, TL, RL). Wonder if those may change, but you get the point.

And that's my guess, take it FWIW.


Your theory makes no sense. The tl outside of the legend has been Acura most recognized car anfor years was the sales leader. Whether for looks or price this generation is not doing as well but the name is recognized. Plus the TL is sold wherever Acura is including china

I guess I should apologize for writting too long posts... Obviously you did not read mine till the end, since I was pretty clear that Honda is likely to keep "the TL brand" and put it on the "TSX".
The TSX (as a concept) though is available with i4 and V6 engines, sedan and wagon, sells all over the world and abundantly outsells the TL.

Morover:
- The TSX obviously fulfills the needs of many Americans (since it already outsells the TL)
- The TL could never fulfill European/JP tastes/needs for a mid-size (EU/JP-wise) sedan.
- The RL is a waste because it barely sells anywhere.

So it'd be much more interesting for Honda to try pushing current TL buyers towards TSX-RL (the higher end TL ones towards RL, lower mid&lower end towards TSX) than keeping the three of them. Once that is achieved, Honda would have no more "NA-specific" sedans; all of them would be sold everywhere, and to me, it makes sense.
longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2011 20:46
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danielgr wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Now, please keep in mind I'm not talking about the "TSX" nameplate, but "the TSX as a global luxury sedan with no disproportionate size".

My feeling though (assuming the increasing rumours of the dismal of one of Acura sedans are accurate) is the TL will be gone.

Why?
- With the current generation of TSX, Honda has
a) Introduced a V6 variant (stepping into TL territory)
b) outsold the TL (obviously helped by slower price-point, but that will partly be solved by the new sub-TSX entry)
c) Introduced a wagon
d) Been introduced in China (world's largest market)
- By comparison the TL remains a nearly exclusively NA car, which has seen no real expansion nor focus whatsoever, and has dangerously stepped into RL territory (Honda's global flagship).

Now, given the NA history of the TL nameplate, it could be that Honda decides to keep it for Acura; again though, I'm not discussing nameplates but cars.

So here is my guess on the future Acura line-up.
- Introduce IL sub-TSX car
- Drop the current TL (as a concept)
- Drop TSX nameplate for Acura and introduce next Euro/JP_Accord-Chinese Spirior as the new TL.
- Bring up revised RL (with whatever 2-letter name).

On the overall positioning / meaning of it:
- Right now Honda has 3 sedans where there is only room for 2 (TSX-TL-RL). The reason for that was Honda Fukui-era aim to become a "Tier1 luxury brand". Under that reasoning the RL was intended to become Lexus LS/BMW 7series challenger, boosting FR-based platform and V8/V10 power. Those plans have changed, and Honda is taking Acura back to where it started "smart luxury". I.e. offering more luxury than mainstream brands (like "Honda") provide, but without incurring into the excess and pompe of image-based true luxury makers.
- So the new RL will essentially abandon plans to take the brand significantly higher up, and would represent (at most) a small increase with respect to the current model. It will take from where high-end TLs start now and finish up a bit over the current RL.
- The TL becomes then redundant, as the TSX can well take over it. Prices of the new TL-branded global luxury sedan start from mid-TSX level now to mid TL-level.
- The iL lowers Acura access point to RSX level, and ends up about mid current TSX-one.
- Honda has therefore 3 sedans better spaced in terms of both size and price; one less slow-selling (TL) car to make.
- From now on the X suffix becomes SUV specific, and all sedans are named with "2-letter" nameplates (iL, TL, RL). Wonder if those may change, but you get the point.

And that's my guess, take it FWIW.


Your theory makes no sense. The tl outside of the legend has been Acura most recognized car anfor years was the sales leader. Whether for looks or price this generation is not doing as well but the name is recognized. Plus the TL is sold wherever Acura is including china

I guess I should apologize for writting too long posts... Obviously you did not read mine till the end, since I was pretty clear that Honda is likely to keep "the TL brand" and put it on the "TSX".
The TSX (as a concept) though is available with i4 and V6 engines, sedan and wagon, sells all over the world and abundantly outsells the TL.

Morover:
- The TSX obviously fulfills the needs of many Americans (since it already outsells the TL)
- The TL could never fulfill European/JP tastes/needs for a mid-size (EU/JP-wise) sedan.
- The RL is a waste because it barely sells anywhere.

So it'd be much more interesting for Honda to try pushing current TL buyers towards TSX-RL (the higher end TL ones towards RL, lower mid&lower end towards TSX) than keeping the three of them. Once that is achieved, Honda would have no more "NA-specific" sedans; all of them would be sold everywhere, and to me, it makes sense.



Interesting theory. The RL 's worldwide clone was killed in Japan I thought. Which means most likely it will move to the Accord platform and production in America. No need for worldwide sales,it would nice, like icing, but not neccessary.

Under that scenario I could see the "car" that is the TL going away, since it too is based on the larger Accord platform.

And though Daniel disagrees with me on this,does Honda really needs to replace the JDM Accord? Its like a place holder in Europe, are sales really that good? And in Japan, isn't the buying demograhic moving away from sedans?.

Using the X only on CUVs do make sense. I just hope they really do not choose "IL" name.
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2011 21:02
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Mikeydred wrote:
iutodd wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
Your theory makes no sense. The tl outside of the legend has been Acura most recognized car anfor years was the sales leader. Whether for looks or price this generation is not doing as well but the name is recognized. Plus the TL is sold wherever Acura is including china

Read his post again. He is saying that the TL nameplate will stay around and the TSX nameplate will get dropped.


No he's not he clearly calls the tl redundant. I read it all right, the title was even changed, did you catch that? Although I believe getting rid if the TSX is not a way to achieve their lofty goal of 200k anually it makes sense. The TSX is the only sedan curently win x extension,which should be reserved for the crossovers. Which means the next nsx and rsx should they reappear should be named something else. While we are on the subject. What the he'll is an IL, they can do better than that!



I have to agree with you. There was no reason for the TL to grow 8 INCHES for this generation. There is a huge disparity between the TSX and TL sizewise, since the TSX is only marginally larger than a 1990-93 Accord was.

I am not saying the TSX should stay large, but there is certainly a pretty fair difference in size between the two. I think the TL should shrink a few inches (for a total growth of maybe 2-3" over the 3rd gen TL), the TSX is probably better replaced by the Civic (better size to weight relationship IMO), and the RL should grow slightly to be a few inches larger than it is now, with nearly all of that going to the backseat accomodations.

I don't think 4cyl only power in the small car would necessarily hurt, as evidenced by 4 banger TSX sales, and a lighter, smaller car would only help that equation. The TL should remain about what it is, only in a smaller package, and the RL needs more power and tech.

Personally, I think we will see boosted versions of Honda/Acura's next V6 family, and maybe even the 4 cylinder family that is rumored. Smaller, lighter, and bosoted would fit in nicely with the times, and as long as Honda doesn't make it an excuse to decontent all of the other technology out of the engine, I think it would make for some fantastic powertrains.

I think a V8 RL is wholly unnecessary, although I do wish they had kept a longitudinal layout for both dynamic and stylistic reasons.
CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-14-2011 04:06
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I guess I'm the only one here that thinks that 4 different sized sedans can exist in the Acura portfolio. A great example would be Audi. They have the A3 hatch, A4, A6 and A8 which are all pretty easy to identify in terms of size. What I don't understand is why it's so hard for Acura to size each model accordingly. It's not rocket science.

RL = Audi A8
TL = Audi A6
TSX = Audi A4
RSX= Audi A3

That just makes sense to me. The TSX couldnt be a rebadged Euro Accord as it should be designed as an Acura from conception. The base TSX should have a revamped 240hp K23t standard and the Type S would have a 300+hp V6 with SH-awd. I'd like to see a coupe/convertible spun off this platform.

The RL is a rebadge BUT it was designed as a high end car to begin with. However, the RL needs to be an Acura RL globally not just in North America. Drivetrain wise, a 400hp 3.5tt V6 and an optional performance hybrid or diesel. SH-awd across the board.

The TL could stay its current size but material/build quality, performance and available features would have to be upgraded to compete with the E Class, 5 Series and A6 which should be fairly easy to do. Base 300+hp V6 and the Type S would have a slightly detuned version of the RLs 3.5tt. Let's say 380ish hp. SH-awd across the board.

The RSX should be a premium compact in the way the Audi A3 and VW GTi are. Premium look, feel and features with maybe three different drivetrain options. Base would be a 220hp K24, the Type S would be powered by a revamped K23t with 260hp and SH-awd. A hybrid version would be ideal also.

In terms of the MDX and RDX I think Acura has sized these vehicle right although I'd like to see some drivetrain options on both, either hybrid or diesel. Last but not least the ZDX. I'm lost here as I like the idea of having a high end niche vehicle available but more on the lines of the Audi A7.


Patrick
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-14-2011 10:09
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longhorn wrote:
Interesting theory. The RL 's worldwide clone was killed in Japan I thought. Which means most likely it will move to the Accord platform and production in America. No need for worldwide sales,it would nice, like icing, but not neccessary.
[...]
1st) The Legend is still being sold in Japan, and it got all the recent updates.
2nd) The luxo sedan/wagon market is not small, Honda simply has nearly zero piece of that cake, but I don't think they'll give up on it.
3rd) Recently Honda has been killing several JP-only cars, which led me to believe it's not impossible they decided to follow similar approach with US-only models. It's becoming a very tough business situation for Honda.
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-14-2011 10:15
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CivicB18 wrote:
I guess I'm the only one here that thinks that 4 different sized sedans can exist in the Acura portfolio. A great example would be Audi. They have the A3 hatch, A4, A6 and A8 which are all pretty easy to identify in terms of size. What I don't understand is why it's so hard for Acura to size each model accordingly. It's not rocket science.

RL = Audi A8
TL = Audi A6
TSX = Audi A4
RSX= Audi A3
[...]


1st) I'm just theoritizing on the "hypothesis" that "one of the Acura sedans is going out. I'm not saying "it will", just that "providing those rumours are truth", I believe this is what would happen.

2nd) Something is wrong with your example. You realize yourself that the A3 is a hatch, and yet you pretend to set an example about "there is room for 4 sedans". The fact is there are not many manufacturers making 4 luxo sedans around... (BMW has 3 + 5 + 7 series, Audi has A4, A6, A8; Mercedes has C, E, and S series; Infinitiy has G and M series; Lexus has 4 but many do believe GS and LS are redundant, and Toyota can certainly do whatever they please...)
CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-14-2011 13:34
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danielgr wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
I guess I'm the only one here that thinks that 4 different sized sedans can exist in the Acura portfolio. A great example would be Audi. They have the A3 hatch, A4, A6 and A8 which are all pretty easy to identify in terms of size. What I don't understand is why it's so hard for Acura to size each model accordingly. It's not rocket science.

RL = Audi A8
TL = Audi A6
TSX = Audi A4
RSX= Audi A3
[...]


1st) I'm just theoritizing on the "hypothesis" that "one of the Acura sedans is going out. I'm not saying "it will", just that "providing those rumours are truth", I believe this is what would happen.

2nd) Something is wrong with your example. You realize yourself that the A3 is a hatch, and yet you pretend to set an example about "there is room for 4 sedans". The fact is there are not many manufacturers making 4 luxo sedans around... (BMW has 3 + 5 + 7 series, Audi has A4, A6, A8; Mercedes has C, E, and S series; Infinitiy has G and M series; Lexus has 4 but many do believe GS and LS are redundant, and Toyota can certainly do whatever they please...)




Maybe I should have been more clear. I realize the A3 is a hatch but Acura could still offer a premium hatch with other larger sedans.

I would really like to see the brand go global as I think that alone would really give Acura the chance to do a lot more in terms of product offerings and give them a chance to make each model adapt to different areas around the globe. By that I mean things like offering smaller/larger engines and diesels in regions where they are in high deman. The Germans do it and it seems to work. By the way, how many countries are Acuras sold in?

As far as Lexus is concerned there is more than enough room for the LS and GS. The GS has been a slow seller ever since it was introduced so that's nothing new. However from what I've seen and heard from my father (Toyota/Lexus product planner) about the new GS, it seems it's going to be quite a car as it's going to be engineered using a totally different mentality.


~Patrick
canuck-in-NY
Profile for canuck-in-NY
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-14-2011 21:17
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It all comes down to platforms. Currently the TL and RL sit on the same accord platform. Actually, I may be wrong in that the TL sits on the new accord platform and the aging RL sits on the old one...not sure actually. They only need one model on the accord platform. I agree that the abandoned plan for a RWD RL platform had that issue corrected. Now they have to adapt. If the RL gets a new platform they can either use the NA accord or the euro accord platform for their mid model. Regardless they will have some naming issues to deal with. Perhaps a return to Legend, Vigor, etc...not likely however.
Torque
Profile for Torque
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-14-2011 23:44
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This is my take on this but this is what I think Honda is planning with Acura:

RSX: This will be a rebadge of the Euro Civic with the 2.4 engine from the US Si. A hybrid will join the lineup.
TSX: As a nameplate, gone from the US market.
TL: Will be based on the Euro Accord platform. It was mentioned before that the Accord platform was converging into one instead of the two we have now. Logically, this would mean that the new smaller TL will in effect be the TSX but only be offered with a V6. The 4 cylinder duty will fall to the sub-TSX.
RL: It will continue to exclusively be an SH-AWD model but this time with a turbocharged (twin perhaps) 3.5 V6 pushing out around 400 hp. Since Honda hasn't been developing a new platform for larger FWD models I suspect we will see Acura's version of the four door coupe hence dispensing the need to create a much larger car but still have something differentiating itself from the TL.

These are all guesses. We'll see what happens in the near future.
CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2011 03:15
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Torque wrote:
This is my take on this but this is what I think Honda is planning with Acura:

RSX: This will be a rebadge of the Euro Civic with the 2.4 engine from the US Si. A hybrid will join the lineup.
TSX: As a nameplate, gone from the US market.
TL: Will be based on the Euro Accord platform. It was mentioned before that the Accord platform was converging into one instead of the two we have now. Logically, this would mean that the new smaller TL will in effect be the TSX but only be offered with a V6. The 4 cylinder duty will fall to the sub-TSX.
RL: It will continue to exclusively be an SH-AWD model but this time with a turbocharged (twin perhaps) 3.5 V6 pushing out around 400 hp. Since Honda hasn't been developing a new platform for larger FWD models I suspect we will see Acura's version of the four door coupe hence dispensing the need to create a much larger car but still have something differentiating itself from the TL.

These are all guesses. We'll see what happens in the near future.




I just can't see Acura rebadging a Euro Civic and expecting people to pay a premium. I think the sub-TSX model will be an Acura exclusive design all around yet maybe use the Civic platform. After the TL's sales hit the bottom I don't think Acura can afford another big mistake.


~Patrick
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2011 06:23
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danielgr wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
I guess I'm the only one here that thinks that 4 different sized sedans can exist in the Acura portfolio. A great example would be Audi. They have the A3 hatch, A4, A6 and A8 which are all pretty easy to identify in terms of size. What I don't understand is why it's so hard for Acura to size each model accordingly. It's not rocket science.

RL = Audi A8
TL = Audi A6
TSX = Audi A4
RSX= Audi A3
[...]


1st) I'm just theoritizing on the "hypothesis" that "one of the Acura sedans is going out. I'm not saying "it will", just that "providing those rumours are truth", I believe this is what would happen.

2nd) Something is wrong with your example. You realize yourself that the A3 is a hatch, and yet you pretend to set an example about "there is room for 4 sedans". The fact is there are not many manufacturers making 4 luxo sedans around... (BMW has 3 + 5 + 7 series, Audi has A4, A6, A8; Mercedes has C, E, and S series; Infinitiy has G and M series; Lexus has 4 but many do believe GS and LS are redundant, and Toyota can certainly do whatever they please...)



Daniel, the new A3 will also be offered as a saloon/sedan, because Americans like big butts.

So you're both right.

Since Audi is the world's fastest-growing Teir-2 brand, one would have thought Hondura would have looked very closely at their model palette and what people like about them.

Maybe they have and are obstinately being different for the sake of being different.

Although I can see the difficulty of trying to move the TL upmarket to be an A6/E-class competitor; it was perceived as a much more lowly car in the past.

I think Acura may always suffer from that awkward S60/S70/S80-based sizing. They're not a proper global brand so cannot afford to do an Audi.

Too little, too late.

duncan
Profile for duncan
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2011 10:19
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All that sounds awfully convoluted and way too complicated than necessary. As I've posted earlier, why not simply drop the RL, keep the TSX & TL but introduce more upmarket trims for them (i.e.: a true Type S), and then bring in the the sub-TSX car? The TSX and TL are Acura's top selling sedans and the RL is a total flop--how does it make business sense to drop either one of them for the RL replacement? I just don't see the logic in replacing a better known nameplate (TL) for one that no one even knows exist anymore (RL) on the hopes that the new RL would so mindblowingly superior that is can make up for the lost TL sales--we're talking about going from barely a 100 cars/mth to 2-3K. If that's not putting all your eggs in one basket. then I don't know what is.

Giving the TL an even higher performance trim will make it truly comparable to the 5 Series, A/S6, E Class (AMG), GS, etc, which all are fairly common to see on the streets of Shanghai. So even if there's no European interest in the TL, there certainly would be in China (or at least for a well executed midsize luxury sedan).

Likewise with the TSX, giving it a Type S trim (w/ 6MT) on top of the current V6 trim and the Tourer will make the TSX similarly comparably to the 3 Series, A/S4, C Class (AMG), etc.
iceman6
Profile for iceman6
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2011 12:03
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danielgr wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
I guess I'm the only one here that thinks that 4 different sized sedans can exist in the Acura portfolio. A great example would be Audi. They have the A3 hatch, A4, A6 and A8 which are all pretty easy to identify in terms of size. What I don't understand is why it's so hard for Acura to size each model accordingly. It's not rocket science.

RL = Audi A8
TL = Audi A6
TSX = Audi A4
RSX= Audi A3
[...]


1st) I'm just theoritizing on the "hypothesis" that "one of the Acura sedans is going out. I'm not saying "it will", just that "providing those rumours are truth", I believe this is what would happen.

2nd) Something is wrong with your example. You realize yourself that the A3 is a hatch, and yet you pretend to set an example about "there is room for 4 sedans". The fact is there are not many manufacturers making 4 luxo sedans around... (BMW has 3 + 5 + 7 series, Audi has A4, A6, A8; Mercedes has C, E, and S series; Infinitiy has G and M series; Lexus has 4 but many do believe GS and LS are redundant, and Toyota can certainly do whatever they please...)



The next A3 will also be a sedan.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spied/11q3/2013_audi_a3_spy_photos-future_cars
MasterOfDaDomain
Profile for MasterOfDaDomain
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2011 13:24
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There's no way that Acura can create a vehicle to compete against the likes of 7 (series), A8, or S class. Acura's cars will have to offer more size for the lower price, so RL should be between and 5 and 7 size but price against the lower tier of 5, TL between 3 and 5 series and price against the lower tier of 3, and the new smaller sedan/coupe between the 1 and 3 series and price against the lower tier of 1.
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2011 13:41
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duncan wrote:
All that sounds awfully convoluted and way too complicated than necessary. As I've posted earlier, why not simply drop the RL, keep the TSX & TL but introduce more upmarket trims for them (i.e.: a true Type S), and then bring in the the sub-TSX car? The TSX and TL are Acura's top selling sedans and the RL is a total flop--how does it make business sense to drop either one of them for the RL replacement? I just don't see the logic in replacing a better known nameplate (TL) for one that no one even knows exist anymore (RL) on the hopes that the new RL would so mindblowingly superior that is can make up for the lost TL sales--we're talking about going from barely a 100 cars/mth to 2-3K. If that's not putting all your eggs in one basket. then I don't know what is.

Giving the TL an even higher performance trim will make it truly comparable to the 5 Series, A/S6, E Class (AMG), GS, etc, which all are fairly common to see on the streets of Shanghai. So even if there's no European interest in the TL, there certainly would be in China (or at least for a well executed midsize luxury sedan).

Likewise with the TSX, giving it a Type S trim (w/ 6MT) on top of the current V6 trim and the Tourer will make the TSX similarly comparably to the 3 Series, A/S4, C Class (AMG), etc.

Just in case; I'm not talking about "what I think they should do with Acura", but about "what I think they are going to do with Acura".

I'm sure many of you have much better ideas for the brand, and in any case "I'm just guessing" ...

PS: I truly wonder if my English is that bad... I just can't believe someone brings again the "replacing the TL nameplate" thing... Where did I say such thing?!?!;
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2011 14:05
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iceman6 wrote:
danielgr wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
I guess I'm the only one here that thinks that 4 different sized sedans can exist in the Acura portfolio. A great example would be Audi. They have the A3 hatch, A4, A6 and A8 which are all pretty easy to identify in terms of size. What I don't understand is why it's so hard for Acura to size each model accordingly. It's not rocket science.

RL = Audi A8
TL = Audi A6
TSX = Audi A4
RSX= Audi A3
[...]


1st) I'm just theoritizing on the "hypothesis" that "one of the Acura sedans is going out. I'm not saying "it will", just that "providing those rumours are truth", I believe this is what would happen.

2nd) Something is wrong with your example. You realize yourself that the A3 is a hatch, and yet you pretend to set an example about "there is room for 4 sedans". The fact is there are not many manufacturers making 4 luxo sedans around... (BMW has 3 + 5 + 7 series, Audi has A4, A6, A8; Mercedes has C, E, and S series; Infinitiy has G and M series; Lexus has 4 but many do believe GS and LS are redundant, and Toyota can certainly do whatever they please...)



The next A3 will also be a sedan.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spied/11q3/2013_audi_a3_spy_photos-future_cars

Good to know (I did not, nor was that mentioned by the OP).

Btw, funny that Audi has a hard time selling the A6 in the US (about as much as a hard time Toyota has selling the GS). That said, obviously the two world automobile giants can afford to accumulate slow-selling cars for whatever purpose; wonder though how well can the small guys like Honda (or Nissan) play at that game...
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2011 14:06
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danielgr wrote:
duncan wrote:
All that sounds awfully convoluted and way too complicated than necessary. As I've posted earlier, why not simply drop the RL, keep the TSX & TL but introduce more upmarket trims for them (i.e.: a true Type S), and then bring in the the sub-TSX car? The TSX and TL are Acura's top selling sedans and the RL is a total flop--how does it make business sense to drop either one of them for the RL replacement? I just don't see the logic in replacing a better known nameplate (TL) for one that no one even knows exist anymore (RL) on the hopes that the new RL would so mindblowingly superior that is can make up for the lost TL sales--we're talking about going from barely a 100 cars/mth to 2-3K. If that's not putting all your eggs in one basket. then I don't know what is.

Giving the TL an even higher performance trim will make it truly comparable to the 5 Series, A/S6, E Class (AMG), GS, etc, which all are fairly common to see on the streets of Shanghai. So even if there's no European interest in the TL, there certainly would be in China (or at least for a well executed midsize luxury sedan).

Likewise with the TSX, giving it a Type S trim (w/ 6MT) on top of the current V6 trim and the Tourer will make the TSX similarly comparably to the 3 Series, A/S4, C Class (AMG), etc.

Just in case; I'm not talking about "what I think they should do with Acura", but about "what I think they are going to do with Acura".

I'm sure many of you have much better ideas for the brand, and in any case "I'm just guessing" ...

PS: I truly wonder if my English is that bad... I just can't believe someone brings again the "replacing the TL nameplate" thing... Where did I say such thing?!?!;



Non es.

I got sick to death of the same hysterical reaction to the term "NSX successor/replacement", which the press alliterated to "new NSX"

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2011 15:04
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danielgr wrote:
iceman6 wrote:
danielgr wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
I guess I'm the only one here that thinks that 4 different sized sedans can exist in the Acura portfolio. A great example would be Audi. They have the A3 hatch, A4, A6 and A8 which are all pretty easy to identify in terms of size. What I don't understand is why it's so hard for Acura to size each model accordingly. It's not rocket science.

RL = Audi A8
TL = Audi A6
TSX = Audi A4
RSX= Audi A3
[...]


1st) I'm just theoritizing on the "hypothesis" that "one of the Acura sedans is going out. I'm not saying "it will", just that "providing those rumours are truth", I believe this is what would happen.

2nd) Something is wrong with your example. You realize yourself that the A3 is a hatch, and yet you pretend to set an example about "there is room for 4 sedans". The fact is there are not many manufacturers making 4 luxo sedans around... (BMW has 3 + 5 + 7 series, Audi has A4, A6, A8; Mercedes has C, E, and S series; Infinitiy has G and M series; Lexus has 4 but many do believe GS and LS are redundant, and Toyota can certainly do whatever they please...)



The next A3 will also be a sedan.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spied/11q3/2013_audi_a3_spy_photos-future_cars

Good to know (I did not, nor was that mentioned by the OP).

Btw, funny that Audi has a hard time selling the A6 in the US (about as much as a hard time Toyota has selling the GS). That said, obviously the two world automobile giants can afford to accumulate slow-selling cars for whatever purpose; wonder though how well can the small guys like Honda (or Nissan) play at that game...



In regards to Audi, they are not chasing volume in the US and has gone on record stating such. There are waiting lists for a number of their vehicles here in the states (which would include the A6), not bad for a brand pushing FWD platforms with AWD options to be a brand to aspire too.

By the way.........love the new A6 interior......better than BMW and MB.

Back to Acura, I am curios when this sub TSX will arrive. Some state it would have been this fall if weren't for the quake. Some are stating early next year, and some are stating a 2012 intro. So which is correct? I would not fault Acura for waiting to 2012 since they will be debuting a new RDX and MDX next year. And 2012 would be the last year of production for the present TSX,so it would dove tail nicely as a replacement vehicle.
iutodd
Profile for iutodd
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2011 17:31
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MasterOfDaDomain wrote:
There's no way that Acura can create a vehicle to compete against the likes of 7 (series), A8, or S class. Acura's cars will have to offer more size for the lower price, so RL should be between and 5 and 7 size but price against the lower tier of 5, TL between 3 and 5 series and price against the lower tier of 3, and the new smaller sedan/coupe between the 1 and 3 series and price against the lower tier of 1.


I like this plan. The RL wouldn't necessarily have to get bigger - the wheelbase needs to be extended and the interior maximized like with the Civic to differentiate more and hit that middle sweet spot your talking about. The TL is already kind of in that spot (but needs the same interior maximization as the RL), and the IL/Sub-TSX/TSX-replacement should shoot for that spot you mention. It's weird but I think it makes sense that Acura can compete better with 3 sedans rather than 4. They can flex technology better that way, differentiate more and it gives them price room to add more trim levels (Type-S/Legend packages) - which helps create Halo models and allows them to build the cars they should be building.

Acura just needs to figure out where they should go and then go there (which is what you are saying, and what danielgr is saying) - pick a standard of performance for your vehicles and then build that car. Oh and build a freaking hatchback with a stick so I can buy one and be happy.
duncan
Profile for duncan
Re: Why the TSX is going nowhere?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-16-2011 12:14
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danielgr wrote:
duncan wrote:
All that sounds awfully convoluted and way too complicated than necessary. As I've posted earlier, why not simply drop the RL, keep the TSX & TL but introduce more upmarket trims for them (i.e.: a true Type S), and then bring in the the sub-TSX car? The TSX and TL are Acura's top selling sedans and the RL is a total flop--how does it make business sense to drop either one of them for the RL replacement? I just don't see the logic in replacing a better known nameplate (TL) for one that no one even knows exist anymore (RL) on the hopes that the new RL would so mindblowingly superior that is can make up for the lost TL sales--we're talking about going from barely a 100 cars/mth to 2-3K. If that's not putting all your eggs in one basket. then I don't know what is.

Giving the TL an even higher performance trim will make it truly comparable to the 5 Series, A/S6, E Class (AMG), GS, etc, which all are fairly common to see on the streets of Shanghai. So even if there's no European interest in the TL, there certainly would be in China (or at least for a well executed midsize luxury sedan).

Likewise with the TSX, giving it a Type S trim (w/ 6MT) on top of the current V6 trim and the Tourer will make the TSX similarly comparably to the 3 Series, A/S4, C Class (AMG), etc.

Just in case; I'm not talking about "what I think they should do with Acura", but about "what I think they are going to do with Acura".

I'm sure many of you have much better ideas for the brand, and in any case "I'm just guessing" ...

PS: I truly wonder if my English is that bad... I just can't believe someone brings again the "replacing the TL nameplate" thing... Where did I say such thing?!?!;



Frankly, your English is probably better than that of most native born N. Americans. But if you had read my post carefully, other a single reference to "nameplate", the gist of my post was in reference to the underlying actual cars, not the nameplates. And whether you were only speculating on Acura's mindset or actually expressing your own opinion, I still stand by my position that the logic behind this scenario you had described to be totally wonky.
 
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