The main deal killer for this generation was that it was built to be cheap... and from reviews and photos, it feels cheap too.
The exterior looks great in my opinion... but the too obvious giant pieces of black plastic around the windows simply kills it for me, especially for the sedan. The interior would have been a great improvement- if only the quality of materials and the execution of some details were actually any good. Instead, what has happened was that Honda went backwards from the 8th generation Civic, at a time when competitors have stepped forward. Unlike in 2005 when the 8th generation Civic debuted, there are several viable alternatives, all very strong, compared to the Civic's original arch-rivals (Mazda 3 and Corolla). This is about as weak a response as it gets, and while you can argue that nobody could have foreseen that the competition would be so strong 6 years later, I'm going to say that pushing the boundaries in making better balanced vehicles for the masses is what has kept Honda ahead. They clearly didn't do that this time.
Considering Honda's past traditional values, I think this is unacceptable. Yes, the MSRP of the car is actually rather inexpensive, especially in Canada compared to past Hondas. But didn't Honda already go through this "encheapening" exercise with the Insight? And how did that turn out?
The unfortunate thing about this whole situation is that, unless Honda sees mass declining sales, I don't think they'll do anything to improve, and I certainly don't expect to see a significant jump forwards for the MMC. What I fear most is that we'll be seeing 5 years of mediocrity until the 10th generation Civic debuts. And what then?
If this is the new culture at Honda, I have to wonder what's going to happen with the next generation CR-V, the next generation Accord, etc. Will Honda become the new 2000's Toyota? I don't want to be any part of this if this is the case.
Yes, I agree with you. For years, what did we say about Honda interiors around here? They have great ergonomics, attention to detail, soft touch materials on the dashboard and door panels (and even the glove box door, in my '97 Accord), seats that make you think they're going to last 15 years and still look like new (just like that Accord); they're uncluttered, plenty of nooks & crannies - most lined with felt, many with lids, some even spring loaded; clear, commanding outward visibility thanks to low cowls and beltlines (okay, this one really isn't Honda's fault, thanks to utility vehicles for ruining sexiness like the '88 Prelude).
When my 1994 Civic - ALL 5th gen Civics, for that matter - had soft touch material on the upper dash and the door panels from top to bottom, half vinyl/half felt sunvisors that never had delaminating problems, included even a small center sunvisor to block sunlight above the rearview mirror; carpet with a nap that can only be found in Acuras now, a large central air vent on the top dash to blow air back to the center rear passenger; even padded arm rests for the outer rear seat passengers in the coupe and a carpeted rear shelf...... SEVENTEEN YEARS AGO, I cannot accept Honda foisting upon us a fully hard plastic finished dash and doors, plastic sunvisors, "carpet" that used to have a spare tire under it in older Hondas, completely hard plastic on the back panels and shelf (that one started back in '96). To pompously DELETE items that were in the car this one is replacing and still on dealer lots, just reeks of cheap assed, penny-pinching accountants running this company into territory that isn't worth my damn time.
Honda should be thankful that today has so few real car people anymore. They get in and drive - if we're lucky they're half paying attention to the driving part. Apologists out there who want to descend on my post and try to preach to me about ACE, airbags, VSA, TPMS driving up costs, it's really hard for me to work myself into a worry for Honda. They make billions in profits during hard times. They're the car company, let them figure it out. It's up to me to make the money to purchase the car. I could be more eloquent about it, but that's what it boils down to, and the niceties are long over.
330R wrote: Yes, I agree with you. For years, what did we say about Honda interiors around here? They have great ergonomics, attention to detail, soft touch materials on the dashboard and door panels (and even the glove box door, in my '97 Accord), seats that make you think they're going to last 15 years and still look like new (just like that Accord); they're uncluttered, plenty of nooks & crannies - most lined with felt, many with lids, some even spring loaded; clear, commanding outward visibility thanks to low cowls and beltlines (okay, this one really isn't Honda's fault, thanks to utility vehicles for ruining sexiness like the '88 Prelude).
When my 1994 Civic - ALL 5th gen Civics, for that matter - had soft touch material on the upper dash and the door panels from top to bottom, half vinyl/half felt sunvisors that never had delaminating problems, included even a small center sunvisor to block sunlight above the rearview mirror; carpet with a nap that can only be found in Acuras now, a large central air vent on the top dash to blow air back to the center rear passenger; even padded arm rests for the outer rear seat passengers in the coupe and a carpeted rear shelf...... SEVENTEEN YEARS AGO, I cannot accept Honda foisting upon us a fully hard plastic finished dash and doors, plastic sunvisors, "carpet" that used to have a spare tire under it in older Hondas, completely hard plastic on the back panels and shelf (that one started back in '96). To pompously DELETE items that were in the car this one is replacing and still on dealer lots, just reeks of cheap assed, penny-pinching accountants running this company into territory that isn't worth my damn time.
Honda should be thankful that today has so few real car people anymore. They get in and drive - if we're lucky they're half paying attention to the driving part. Apologists out there who want to descend on my post and try to preach to me about ACE, airbags, VSA, TPMS driving up costs, it's really hard for me to work myself into a worry for Honda. They make billions in profits during hard times. They're the car company, let them figure it out. It's up to me to make the money to purchase the car. I could be more eloquent about it, but that's what it boils down to, and the niceties are long over.
The main deal killer for this generation was that it was built to be cheap... and from reviews and photos, it feels cheap too.
The exterior looks great in my opinion... but the too obvious giant pieces of black plastic around the windows simply kills it for me, especially for the sedan. The interior would have been a great improvement- if only the quality of materials and the execution of some details were actually any good. Instead, what has happened was that Honda went backwards from the 8th generation Civic, at a time when competitors have stepped forward. Unlike in 2005 when the 8th generation Civic debuted, there are several viable alternatives, all very strong, compared to the Civic's original arch-rivals (Mazda 3 and Corolla). This is about as weak a response as it gets, and while you can argue that nobody could have foreseen that the competition would be so strong 6 years later, I'm going to say that pushing the boundaries in making better balanced vehicles for the masses is what has kept Honda ahead. They clearly didn't do that this time.
Considering Honda's past traditional values, I think this is unacceptable. Yes, the MSRP of the car is actually rather inexpensive, especially in Canada compared to past Hondas. But didn't Honda already go through this "encheapening" exercise with the Insight? And how did that turn out?
The unfortunate thing about this whole situation is that, unless Honda sees mass declining sales, I don't think they'll do anything to improve, and I certainly don't expect to see a significant jump forwards for the MMC. What I fear most is that we'll be seeing 5 years of mediocrity until the 10th generation Civic debuts. And what then?
If this is the new culture at Honda, I have to wonder what's going to happen with the next generation CR-V, the next generation Accord, etc. Will Honda become the new 2000's Toyota? I don't want to be any part of this if this is the case.
Honda's problem is that they stopped trying to compete against themselves and started trying to compete against everyone else. The nature of the beast for being at the top is that you are your own worst enemy, and you must strive to better YOURSELF, not everyone else.
Honda used to pride themselves on doing better than they did the last time around. Now it seems as if they are content to not let Hyundai be too much cheaper.
Agreed. I don't think anyone has pointed this out yet, but take a good look at the interior and how similar a lot of things are to the Insight. Why take cues from one of the biggest flops Honda has ever produced? If they would have kept the car the exact same design as the current generation ( I suppose last generation now)but just improved all of the materials a little bit, tweak it a little bit in all mechanical areas, and while they're at it flatten that second row hump just a little more (seemed to creep a little higher in this gen) you'd have yourself one hell of a car! And what is the reason for the plastic backings on the seats these days? Did customer surveys show that passengers preferred their knees knocking on plastic rather than foam? lol.
Meanwhile, somewhere in Honda R&D, a team of drivetrain engineers spent 200 man hours working out the best way to affix an iVtec sticker to the engine compartment of the 2012 Civic Si, which boasts an advanced 2.4L engine making 200hp and approx. 170 lb/ft of torque.
"This accomplishment has brought tears to my eyes, it's simply stupendous... absolutely amazing," said the lead engineer on the project. "It's incredible what challenges that a motivated team can overcome."
The team had been working on the best placement angle of the sticker, taking into account light levels in the engine bay (both open and shut), heat readings at idle and at speed, noise levels, even the composition of the sticker material itself.
"We had to specially design a heat-resistant metallic sticker, that alone took six days of round the clock effort... it was exhausting."
When asked of whether customers would appreciate all their hard work, he laughed.
"Nothing is too much for Honda to accomplish. We're sure owners will be tickled pink everytime they open the hood of their cars and see the i-VTEC sticker next to the dipstick. It's a shining accomplishment of what the power of dreams can do."
330R wrote: Yes, I agree with you. For years, what did we say about Honda interiors around here? They have great ergonomics, attention to detail, soft touch materials on the dashboard and door panels (and even the glove box door, in my '97 Accord), seats that make you think they're going to last 15 years and still look like new (just like that Accord); they're uncluttered, plenty of nooks & crannies - most lined with felt, many with lids, some even spring loaded; clear, commanding outward visibility thanks to low cowls and beltlines (okay, this one really isn't Honda's fault, thanks to utility vehicles for ruining sexiness like the '88 Prelude).
When my 1994 Civic - ALL 5th gen Civics, for that matter - had soft touch material on the upper dash and the door panels from top to bottom, half vinyl/half felt sunvisors that never had delaminating problems, included even a small center sunvisor to block sunlight above the rearview mirror; carpet with a nap that can only be found in Acuras now, a large central air vent on the top dash to blow air back to the center rear passenger; even padded arm rests for the outer rear seat passengers in the coupe and a carpeted rear shelf...... SEVENTEEN YEARS AGO, I cannot accept Honda foisting upon us a fully hard plastic finished dash and doors, plastic sunvisors, "carpet" that used to have a spare tire under it in older Hondas, completely hard plastic on the back panels and shelf (that one started back in '96). To pompously DELETE items that were in the car this one is replacing and still on dealer lots, just reeks of cheap assed, penny-pinching accountants running this company into territory that isn't worth my damn time.
Honda should be thankful that today has so few real car people anymore. They get in and drive - if we're lucky they're half paying attention to the driving part. Apologists out there who want to descend on my post and try to preach to me about ACE, airbags, VSA, TPMS driving up costs, it's really hard for me to work myself into a worry for Honda. They make billions in profits during hard times. They're the car company, let them figure it out. It's up to me to make the money to purchase the car. I could be more eloquent about it, but that's what it boils down to, and the niceties are long over.
I recently drove a current-gen Civic Type-S and have to agree; the interior was like a commercial vehicle.
The 5G's smartness I presume is being reserved for some sort of Acura version. Closest thing to where a 5G ought to be is now the Audi A3 - a blatant ripoff minus the excellent chassis!
The main deal killer for this generation was that it was built to be cheap... and from reviews and photos, it feels cheap too.
The exterior looks great in my opinion... but the too obvious giant pieces of black plastic around the windows simply kills it for me, especially for the sedan. The interior would have been a great improvement- if only the quality of materials and the execution of some details were actually any good. Instead, what has happened was that Honda went backwards from the 8th generation Civic, at a time when competitors have stepped forward. Unlike in 2005 when the 8th generation Civic debuted, there are several viable alternatives, all very strong, compared to the Civic's original arch-rivals (Mazda 3 and Corolla). This is about as weak a response as it gets, and while you can argue that nobody could have foreseen that the competition would be so strong 6 years later, I'm going to say that pushing the boundaries in making better balanced vehicles for the masses is what has kept Honda ahead. They clearly didn't do that this time.
Considering Honda's past traditional values, I think this is unacceptable. Yes, the MSRP of the car is actually rather inexpensive, especially in Canada compared to past Hondas. But didn't Honda already go through this "encheapening" exercise with the Insight? And how did that turn out?
The unfortunate thing about this whole situation is that, unless Honda sees mass declining sales, I don't think they'll do anything to improve, and I certainly don't expect to see a significant jump forwards for the MMC. What I fear most is that we'll be seeing 5 years of mediocrity until the 10th generation Civic debuts. And what then?
If this is the new culture at Honda, I have to wonder what's going to happen with the next generation CR-V, the next generation Accord, etc. Will Honda become the new 2000's Toyota? I don't want to be any part of this if this is the case.
Well said! I've alluded to this in other posts. Interiors were one of the main selling points that has kept me in Hondas since my '97 Civic. One of my biggest pet peeves are interior clicks and rattles at the same time I really appreciate soft-touch materials. Honda used to be a match for both things. Not so much anymore as have competitors whose interiors are simply surpassing Honda.
You mention concern about the next Accord, well they already ruined this one (at least for me). Plastics in my '10 Accord are harder than my '07 and the dash clicks, creaks, and rattles all year long either from temperature changes, or more commonly, bumpy roads. There's also a click from body flex in the back and the headliner makes a buzzing noise depending on a combination of engine RPM and road speed.
Every day I hate driving my '10 Accord and am sad to be stuck in a lease. I fear the new Civic may be in the same boat or even worse.
The main deal killer for this generation was that it was built to be cheap... and from reviews and photos, it feels cheap too.
The exterior looks great in my opinion... but the too obvious giant pieces of black plastic around the windows simply kills it for me, especially for the sedan. The interior would have been a great improvement- if only the quality of materials and the execution of some details were actually any good. Instead, what has happened was that Honda went backwards from the 8th generation Civic, at a time when competitors have stepped forward. Unlike in 2005 when the 8th generation Civic debuted, there are several viable alternatives, all very strong, compared to the Civic's original arch-rivals (Mazda 3 and Corolla). This is about as weak a response as it gets, and while you can argue that nobody could have foreseen that the competition would be so strong 6 years later, I'm going to say that pushing the boundaries in making better balanced vehicles for the masses is what has kept Honda ahead. They clearly didn't do that this time.
Considering Honda's past traditional values, I think this is unacceptable. Yes, the MSRP of the car is actually rather inexpensive, especially in Canada compared to past Hondas. But didn't Honda already go through this "encheapening" exercise with the Insight? And how did that turn out?
The unfortunate thing about this whole situation is that, unless Honda sees mass declining sales, I don't think they'll do anything to improve, and I certainly don't expect to see a significant jump forwards for the MMC. What I fear most is that we'll be seeing 5 years of mediocrity until the 10th generation Civic debuts. And what then?
If this is the new culture at Honda, I have to wonder what's going to happen with the next generation CR-V, the next generation Accord, etc. Will Honda become the new 2000's Toyota? I don't want to be any part of this if this is the case.
Well said! I've alluded to this in other posts. Interiors were one of the main selling points that has kept me in Hondas since my '97 Civic. One of my biggest pet peeves are interior clicks and rattles at the same time I really appreciate soft-touch materials. Honda used to be a match for both things. Not so much anymore as we have competitors whose interiors are simply surpassing Honda.
You mention concern about the next Accord, well they already ruined this one (at least for me). Plastics in my '10 Accord are harder than my '07 and the dash clicks, creaks, and rattles all year long either from temperature changes, or more commonly, bumpy roads. There's also a click from body flex in the back and the headliner makes a buzzing noise depending on a combination of engine RPM and road speed.
Every day I hate driving my '10 Accord and am sad to be stuck in a lease. I fear the new Civic may be in the same boat or even worse.
I can't believe I forgot my biggest issue with my '10 Accord that hopefully doesn't trickle down to the Civic... I have an EX 5MT and the starter enable switch on the clutch pedal is now so cheap, every time I depress the clutch I get an audible click (can be heard even with music on).
I took the car to the dealer for this and the issue with the center console clicking and they told me they couldn't do anything about either, "it's just the way Honda changed things from the 7th gen to the 8th gen".
I realize we're in a thread about the new Civic but my point is that these cost-cutting issues are becoming more common for Honda and it's certainly a worry in newer products like this one.
I need to drive one before I make a final judgement, but I did look at a EXL in that nice dark red color and it looked nice in person. In fact, I liked the rear better than the front. Also the interior was not all that bad. I more interested in the driving dynamics and NVH. If NVH has not improved I will not consider getting one. One review has it still having plenty of wind and road noise and other reviews have it quieter.
My other issue is advancement. Back in 1988 the JDM Civic could be optioned with a fuel injected engine, ALB, real time all wheel drive and a modified DWB suspension at all 4 corners. I have had some people bring up the safety advances with todays Civics. Sure the newer one is safer but back in 1988 the Civic was safe for that time frame.
I just don't see Honda as that leader it once was and I'm hoping they will come back in the near future.
The main deal killer for this generation was that it was built to be cheap... and from reviews and photos, it feels cheap too.
The exterior looks great in my opinion... but the too obvious giant pieces of black plastic around the windows simply kills it for me, especially for the sedan. The interior would have been a great improvement- if only the quality of materials and the execution of some details were actually any good. Instead, what has happened was that Honda went backwards from the 8th generation Civic, at a time when competitors have stepped forward. Unlike in 2005 when the 8th generation Civic debuted, there are several viable alternatives, all very strong, compared to the Civic's original arch-rivals (Mazda 3 and Corolla). This is about as weak a response as it gets, and while you can argue that nobody could have foreseen that the competition would be so strong 6 years later, I'm going to say that pushing the boundaries in making better balanced vehicles for the masses is what has kept Honda ahead. They clearly didn't do that this time.
Considering Honda's past traditional values, I think this is unacceptable. Yes, the MSRP of the car is actually rather inexpensive, especially in Canada compared to past Hondas. But didn't Honda already go through this "encheapening" exercise with the Insight? And how did that turn out?
The unfortunate thing about this whole situation is that, unless Honda sees mass declining sales, I don't think they'll do anything to improve, and I certainly don't expect to see a significant jump forwards for the MMC. What I fear most is that we'll be seeing 5 years of mediocrity until the 10th generation Civic debuts. And what then?
If this is the new culture at Honda, I have to wonder what's going to happen with the next generation CR-V, the next generation Accord, etc. Will Honda become the new 2000's Toyota? I don't want to be any part of this if this is the case.
I really don't see this happening. Toyota set out to become the worlds biggest automaker and set about trying to make and sell as many cars as possible. They succeeded because they had a reputation for reliability that has only recently been called into question - and obviously that success has come at a cost to their perceived reliability and the blandness and cheapness of their vehicles. Honda has a reputation for reliability - even if reviewers don't like the Honda they're reviewing, they always talk about how it will be reliable. However I do not think Honda vehicles are bland, either inside or out. There is no way the Civic's interior is boring, and, after sitting in an EX-L - I also do not think it's "cheap". Nobody could sit in a Corolla and then sit in a Civic and be at all reminded of the other. In fact, all you have to do to see the differences between the two companies is look at the Corolla and Accord refreshes. Both of these products are extremely important for each automaker. Toyota put on a new front clip and new tailights and got rid of some trim levels and did nothing to the powertrain. Honda also updated the exterior (made it more aerodynamic), updated the engines by doing all sorts of things, and even messed slightly with the button layout inside and added trim levels to compete better. Honda recognized that its competitors were getting better and they had to react and they did. Toyota, even though it has the worst and least efficient powertrain in the class - did NOTHING to improve it. I remember when the Civic got MMCed and the powertrain carried over unchanged - it did so because the Civic was still basically the leader in fuel economy. So Honda does react when necessary and Toyota obviously doesn't.
I am not trying to argue against your point that this generation is being produced for less money than the previous generation - Honda came out and admitted as much. I just don't think Honda/Acura is going to be at all like Toyota/Lexus.
PGH wrote: I need to drive one before I make a final judgement, but I did look at a EXL in that nice dark red color and it looked nice in person. In fact, I liked the rear better than the front. Also the interior was not all that bad. I more interested in the driving dynamics and NVH. If NVH has not improved I will not consider getting one. One review has it still having plenty of wind and road noise and other reviews have it quieter.
I had a different reaction. I looked at a dark silver EX-L and while I think the exterior is attractive and very competitive, I found the interior to be a huge disappointment. This one didn't have nav and the radio controls looked and felt so cheap and toylike, especially that giant 4-way rocker switch with the volume control in the middle. And the knobs on the radio and HVAC controls looked and felt like they were right off of a toy as well. Most of the plastic dash pieces felt hollow and had cheap looking textures. Nothing was padded except for the seats and the armrests. And the upper door trim was nothing short of appalling. I got into my 2011 Accord EX-L after sitting in the 2012 Civic EX-L and it was like getting into an Acura RL or BMW 5-Series by comparison. (And before anyone jumps all over me, I'm not claiming that the Accord actually has an RL-class interior... it just seemed that way right after being in the Civic.) Yes, I realize that the Accord and Civic are in different classes and price ranges, but I just didn't expect such a dramatic difference in interior quality for each model's top-of-the-line trim. I sure hope they don't follow this interior cheapening trend when they redesign the Accord for 2013, because if that's the case, my 2011 will be my last Accord.
As has been said uptopic, it's unfortunate that Honda has achieved a new low in Civic interior quality just as several of its class competitors are raising the bar for interior design, bumping it up a level or two. The drive had better be class-leading or they may have trouble in Honda City.
PGH wrote: I need to drive one before I make a final judgement, but I did look at a EXL in that nice dark red color and it looked nice in person. In fact, I liked the rear better than the front. Also the interior was not all that bad. I more interested in the driving dynamics and NVH. If NVH has not improved I will not consider getting one. One review has it still having plenty of wind and road noise and other reviews have it quieter.
I had a different reaction. I looked at a dark silver EX-L and while I think the exterior is attractive and very competitive, I found the interior to be a huge disappointment. This one didn't have nav and the radio controls looked and felt so cheap and toylike, especially that giant 4-way rocker switch with the volume control in the middle. And the knobs on the radio and HVAC controls looked and felt like they were right off of a toy as well. Most of the plastic dash pieces felt hollow and had cheap looking textures. Nothing was padded except for the seats and the armrests. And the upper door trim was nothing short of appalling. I got into my 2011 Accord EX-L after sitting in the 2012 Civic EX-L and it was like getting into an Acura RL or BMW 5-Series by comparison. (And before anyone jumps all over me, I'm not claiming that the Accord actually has an RL-class interior... it just seemed that way right after being in the Civic.) Yes, I realize that the Accord and Civic are in different classes and price ranges, but I just didn't expect such a dramatic difference in interior quality for each model's top-of-the-line trim. I sure hope they don't follow this interior cheapening trend when they redesign the Accord for 2013, because if that's the case, my 2011 will be my last Accord.
As has been said uptopic, it's unfortunate that Honda has achieved a new low in Civic interior quality just as several of its class competitors are raising the bar for interior design, bumping it up a level or two. The drive had better be class-leading or they may have trouble in Honda City.
I think the problem is where you're coming from - shouldn't the Accord EX-L have a "nicer" interior than the Civic EX-L? Comparing a $22K car to a $28K car? I sure hope the $28K car has a better interior. And when you get used to certain interiors (the Accord and the Civic have VERY different interiors) something totally different probably won't be very inviting to your eye.
I come from a Fit and the Civic's interior is great. I took mine to get it serviced and sat in a new Civic EX-L and was blown away by the difference - especially when an auto Fit Sport only costs like 4k less. I also disagree with your notion that the audio switchgear is cheap feeling or cheap looking. It looks like Honda audio switchgear - how does it look or feel cheaper than the switchgear in the 8th gen Civic? Or in the Accord? I've been in several EX-L Accords and I have no idea how the switchgear on the Civic seems/feels cheaper. I just don't see it. The steering wheel felt great in my hands and, honestly, I feel like if somebody is sitting in the Civic and looking at the plastic on the dash and not at the 3 different information screens then they have a problem. The most important surface inside the car is the steering wheel, and the new Civic has a fantastic one (and several reviews agree with me on that). You are certainly entitled to your opinion however.
The only thing I didn't like about the doors was how high the beltline is - it was hard for me (6'2") to sit with my arm out the window unless I raised the seat height up until I was almost touching the ceiling with my head.
And yes, all of the competition is going towards similar styles of interiors that, I guess, look good. If Honda redesigned their interior to look like the Elantra's or the Cruze's then people would just be complaining that Honda was following the trend and it had lost some of it's character (forgetting that both of the above cars lose some character since their interiors are similar). I'm glad Honda kept the look of the interior the same, and I think the materials are just fine. I'm sure that there are tons of people who agree with me. Would you rather have that stupid cloth from the Cruze? Or the shiny silver plastic all over the Elantra? Or, answer me this - what part of the dash assembly in the Civic should be soft to the touch and why?
They're getting cheaper with the interior materials and the mechanical components as well. I'm tired of excuses, misdirections from John Mendell, and the usual defenders. This isnt Ferrari - we judge it based on the product they make, not on their legendary status or high ideals. So lets not kid ourselves... The switch to the K24 was to reduce the number of different engines being produced - a cost saving measure. Say what you want - It wasnt for low end torque, because it weighed less, or for better fuel economy. Thats only one example. Think front strut suspensions. Or rear drum brakes. These used to be dirty words in the Honda vocabulary. Meanwhile, braking distances get longer. Handling suffers a little. The interior isnt as enjoyable. I see it in the current Accord, the Odyssey, this Civic and I'll expect the same in the revised CRV later this year.
I don't think TOV'ers expectation of Honda has changed. I do think Hondas expectation of their customers has... wave a few beads and trinkets like the iMID and we wont notice the unfinished plastics, lower quality fabrics and seat construction and we should all go running to the dealerships with our dollars. And it all started with the hybrid program. Honestly, I'm sick of Hondas pathetic hybrids and am hoping this Civic gets a gen 7 Civic-like reception from the public so Honda figures out who it is that buys their cars.
I think the Civic really is hitting the plateau of it's model offerings. By Design, the Civic is meant to be the upper-tier entry level vehicle into the brand. No doubt, Honda CAN give it more: power, interior niceties, tech, blah blah blah but to do so would mean bumping the Civic up into waters where it has not traditionally sailed and possibly encroaching really into the upcoming Sub-TSX territory.
Starting to think that the Sub-TSX will be based off of this Civic, and that it is the reason for the sudden drop in creature comforts in this Civic. What better way to make a premium product "premium"? Lower the standards on its inferior counter-part.
Ganplosive wrote: I think the Civic really is hitting the plateau of it's model offerings. By Design, the Civic is meant to be the upper-tier entry level vehicle into the brand. No doubt, Honda CAN give it more: power, interior niceties, tech, blah blah blah but to do so would mean bumping the Civic up into waters where it has not traditionally sailed and possibly encroaching really into the upcoming Sub-TSX territory.
Starting to think that the Sub-TSX will be based off of this Civic, and that it is the reason for the sudden drop in creature comforts in this Civic. What better way to make a premium product "premium"? Lower the standards on its inferior counter-part.
Risking in the process to sell less of your best-selling model?
How much sub-TSX Acura's can they hope to sell?
Restless wrote: Risking in the process to sell less of your best-selling model?
How much sub-TSX Acura's can they hope to sell?
The way I see it, this new Civic is going to sell as long as people don't just shop their cars on specs alone. The Si will gain new kinds of enthusiasts, while the current Si drivers like those of you on here will move 'up' to the sub-TSX Acura assuming that things are going what we are told.
This will fix people complaining about how they have no car to move up market to, while Honda gets new enthusiasts and at the very least compete with some of the hot versions of their competition. Exactly how they will hold up to competition we'll see but it seems to me the new Civic is a very nice car, in all trims. The IMA version is especially interesting to me as 44/44/44 seems like a precise number that Honda set out to hit. Also, I'm surprised that the IMA was able to get such mileage improvement while at the same time the engine displacement went up with the VTEC technology deleted. And someone mentioned in another thread about the hybrid hitting 59mpg.
I think the problem is where you're coming from - shouldn't the Accord EX-L have a "nicer" interior than the Civic EX-L? Comparing a $22K car to a $28K car? I sure hope the $28K car has a better interior. And when you get used to certain interiors (the Accord and the Civic have VERY different interiors) something totally different probably won't be very inviting to your eye.
I come from a Fit and the Civic's interior is great. I took mine to get it serviced and sat in a new Civic EX-L and was blown away by the difference - especially when an auto Fit Sport only costs like 4k less. I also disagree with your notion that the audio switchgear is cheap feeling or cheap looking. It looks like Honda audio switchgear - how does it look or feel cheaper than the switchgear in the 8th gen Civic? Or in the Accord? I've been in several EX-L Accords and I have no idea how the switchgear on the Civic seems/feels cheaper. I just don't see it. The steering wheel felt great in my hands and, honestly, I feel like if somebody is sitting in the Civic and looking at the plastic on the dash and not at the 3 different information screens then they have a problem. The most important surface inside the car is the steering wheel, and the new Civic has a fantastic one (and several reviews agree with me on that). You are certainly entitled to your opinion however.
The only thing I didn't like about the doors was how high the beltline is - it was hard for me (6'2") to sit with my arm out the window unless I raised the seat height up until I was almost touching the ceiling with my head.
And yes, all of the competition is going towards similar styles of interiors that, I guess, look good. If Honda redesigned their interior to look like the Elantra's or the Cruze's then people would just be complaining that Honda was following the trend and it had lost some of it's character (forgetting that both of the above cars lose some character since their interiors are similar). I'm glad Honda kept the look of the interior the same, and I think the materials are just fine. I'm sure that there are tons of people who agree with me. Would you rather have that stupid cloth from the Cruze? Or the shiny silver plastic all over the Elantra? Or, answer me this - what part of the dash assembly in the Civic should be soft to the touch and why?
Well certainly I don't expect the interiors to have the same level of quality. I made a very specific point in my original post to indicate that I didn't have that expectation. I also come from spending some time in my nephew's 2009 Civic EX and IMO, the interior materials in the 2012 are a step below. I also sat in a Chevy Cruze and a Hyundai Elantra at a recent auto show and their interior materials are of better enough quality when compared to the new Civic's to be noticeable.
For the record, I have no problem with the design of the Civic's dash, just the materials. I'm far from alone on this... just read through all of the similar comments in other posts in this thread. In addition, Inside Line described the dashboard as "hard, hollow industrial grade plastic", clearly not intended as a compliment. So I'm far from the only person who is unimpressed with the hard, cheap feeling plastics in the interior.
As for the audio controls, they looked and felt cheap. I find it strange that you'd bring up you'd bring up the gen 8 Civic and the current Accord as comparisons... the controls in the 2012 Civic don't appear anything like what's in my Accord, nor what's in my nephew's gen 8 Civic. Neither of those cars have a ginormous slab of cheap looking plastic plopped in the middle of their dashboards. And Inside Line described it as "an oversize radio and button assembly that looks like something Chevy might have offered three years ago", so they weren't impressed either.
I do agree that the steering wheel is nice. Although I didn't notice anything to complain about the Cruze and Elantra's steering wheels.
So I stand by my negative assessment of the Civic's interior materials. All of these things are opinions and people have different reactions. But I will say again, I didn't find either the Cruze or the Elantra interiors to be uninviting. Unfortunately, I can't say that about the new Civic. That's my take on it and I have no need to apologize for it.
I don't know, but if it's anywhere like back in the day Integ / RSX numbers the lower volume will be offset by a higher profit margin. Besides, I don't think it's Honda's (or any automakers) intention to keep selling the same car to the same people over and over, product differentiation dictates that existing customers move on to bigger and better offerings, while the entry level vehicle is meant to draw in a larger percentage of "new" customers (18 yr olds, college students first cars, SUV drivers looking for smaller cars etc. etc.)
Restless wrote: Risking in the process to sell less of your best-selling model?
How much sub-TSX Acura's can they hope to sell?
The way I see it, this new Civic is going to sell as long as people don't just shop their cars on specs alone. The Si will gain new kinds of enthusiasts, while the current Si drivers like those of you on here will move 'up' to the sub-TSX Acura assuming that things are going what we are told.
This will fix people complaining about how they have no car to move up market to, while Honda gets new enthusiasts and at the very least compete with some of the hot versions of their competition. Exactly how they will hold up to competition we'll see but it seems to me the new Civic is a very nice car, in all trims. The IMA version is especially interesting to me as 44/44/44 seems like a precise number that Honda set out to hit. Also, I'm surprised that the IMA was able to get such mileage improvement while at the same time the engine displacement went up with the VTEC technology deleted. And someone mentioned in another thread about the hybrid hitting 59mpg.
People keep bantering about all of these new "enthusiasts" that are going to enter the Si's fold. Why don't you describe what one of these new found converts is going to look like to me? It is like the Loch Ness Monster. Everyone just KNOWS it is there, but yet nobody can elaborate as to how.
owequitit wrote: People keep bantering about all of these new "enthusiasts" that are going to enter the Si's fold. Why don't you describe what one of these new found converts is going to look like to me? It is like the Loch Ness Monster. Everyone just KNOWS it is there, but yet nobody can elaborate as to how.
owequitit wrote: People keep bantering about all of these new "enthusiasts" that are going to enter the Si's fold. Why don't you describe what one of these new found converts is going to look like to me? It is like the Loch Ness Monster. Everyone just KNOWS it is there, but yet nobody can elaborate as to how.
I dunno too. But here's a guess, those who grew up with gadgets? And that horny ninja thing too. Maybe Honda knows or maybe they don't know. I cant elaborate because I don't know either. it's just a guess
owequitit wrote: People keep bantering about all of these new "enthusiasts" that are going to enter the Si's fold. Why don't you describe what one of these new found converts is going to look like to me? It is like the Loch Ness Monster. Everyone just KNOWS it is there, but yet nobody can elaborate as to how.
I'd go even further as to say that there are hardly any new "enthusiasts" period. For any car. One only needs look at the lackluster sales of Nissan Z and the minuscule overall % of manual transmission sales to infer that the marketplace has changed dramatically.
I've seen this thing in person. Sat inside it, touched all the controls. It is rental car quality. I posted my review on this board under "Spent 30 mins looking at the 2012 interior".
Also, I refuse to accept that a car in this segment cannot have a decent quality interior. Have you seen the Mazda 3? Sat inside one lately? I have. The GS (same trim level as the Civic LX) has an interior that's far and away better than the 2012 Civic's. Most of the interior materials are satin black, the dash is a soft touch rubber, parking brake is short and feels solid, steering wheel and centre console stack look classy in silver and black, and the seats are a tight-woven sport cloth material. I'd change the door handles to a silver exterior, there's a bit too much satin black everywhere, but otherwise it is a FAR better interior than the price tag would suggest.
Heck, my old 2007 Mazda 3 has a better interior than the 2012 Civic!
The main deal killer for this generation was that it was built to be cheap... and from reviews and photos, it feels cheap too.
The exterior looks great in my opinion... but the too obvious giant pieces of black plastic around the windows simply kills it for me, especially for the sedan. The interior would have been a great improvement- if only the quality of materials and the execution of some details were actually any good. Instead, what has happened was that Honda went backwards from the 8th generation Civic, at a time when competitors have stepped forward. Unlike in 2005 when the 8th generation Civic debuted, there are several viable alternatives, all very strong, compared to the Civic's original arch-rivals (Mazda 3 and Corolla). This is about as weak a response as it gets, and while you can argue that nobody could have foreseen that the competition would be so strong 6 years later, I'm going to say that pushing the boundaries in making better balanced vehicles for the masses is what has kept Honda ahead. They clearly didn't do that this time.
Considering Honda's past traditional values, I think this is unacceptable. Yes, the MSRP of the car is actually rather inexpensive, especially in Canada compared to past Hondas. But didn't Honda already go through this "encheapening" exercise with the Insight? And how did that turn out?
The unfortunate thing about this whole situation is that, unless Honda sees mass declining sales, I don't think they'll do anything to improve, and I certainly don't expect to see a significant jump forwards for the MMC. What I fear most is that we'll be seeing 5 years of mediocrity until the 10th generation Civic debuts. And what then?
If this is the new culture at Honda, I have to wonder what's going to happen with the next generation CR-V, the next generation Accord, etc. Will Honda become the new 2000's Toyota? I don't want to be any part of this if this is the case.
Honda's problem is that they stopped trying to compete against themselves and started trying to compete against everyone else. The nature of the beast for being at the top is that you are your own worst enemy, and you must strive to better YOURSELF, not everyone else.
Honda used to pride themselves on doing better than they did the last time around. Now it seems as if they are content to not let Hyundai be too much cheaper.
It's pretty hard to deal with a Government owned car company "Cruze" and a Koren manufactured product from a GIANT like Hyundai............They have to cut somewhere I guess.....There is no bottom line at GM and Hyundai is SO BIG, they can afford to jazz up an Elentra to a cretin level.\
Excuse, maybe.......fact, yes..........wait till CHINA starts getting in the game, we are all fucked then..........
Elusivellama wrote: Also, I refuse to accept that a car in this segment cannot have a decent quality interior. Have you seen the Mazda 3? Sat inside one lately? I have. The GS (same trim level as the Civic LX) has an interior that's far and away better than the 2012 Civic's. Most of the interior materials are satin black, the dash is a soft touch rubber, parking brake is short and feels solid, steering wheel and centre console stack look classy in silver and black, and the seats are a tight-woven sport cloth material. I'd change the door handles to a silver exterior, there's a bit too much satin black everywhere, but otherwise it is a FAR better interior than the price tag would suggest.
Heck, my old 2007 Mazda 3 has a better interior than the 2012 Civic!
I am waiting to try the 2012 Civic, but your assertions of the Mazda 3 are pretty laughable.
I love how no matter what, everyone comes on here, bashes the Honda, and then immediately inserts their plug about something else. With PGH it is always about how awesome and so much better Subaru is. With Powered by Hyundai it is always about how much better and softer, and nicer Hyundai XX is at that moment. Usually, when you really spend a lot of time probing around, it doesn't hold much water. At this point in time, most of the competitive cars in the segment have 1 or two features that stand above the competition, 1 or two that don't and they pretty much hold the line everywhere else.
I HAVE sat in a 3 interior lately. The MS3 to be exact, and it doesn't get any more expensive or well built than that for a Mazda 3. There are hardly any soft touch plastics, and while grained nicely with good fit and finish, it felt absolutely no better than my 8th gen Civic which is to say, predominantly hard touch stuff that LOOKS better than it feels. If the Civic is a step down from the 8th gen, then I will cede that the Mazda's is slightly better. But if I find it to maintain the quality of my 8th gen in plastics etc, then I will call B.S. Frankly, I have never had much of a problem with Mazda's interiors, but I have haven't ever found them to be head and shoulders above the rest either. The fact that Honda USED to be that way, and no longer is, is disappointing however.
I am waiting to try the 2012 Civic, but your assertions of the Mazda 3 are pretty laughable.
And YOURS are laughable because you haven't even TRIED the 2012 civic. Immediately after sitting in the civic, I went drove next door to the Mazda dealer, found a GS and sat in it - all within 5 mins of leaving the Honda dealership. About the only thing that can top that is if I drove a Mazda 3 GS right next to a 2012 Civic and did a comparo.
I love how no matter what, everyone comes on here, bashes the Honda, and then immediately inserts their plug about something else.
Again, you haven't even seen the 2012 Civic in person.
With PGH it is always about how awesome and so much better Subaru is. With Powered by Hyundai it is always about how much better and softer, and nicer Hyundai XX is at that moment. Usually, when you really spend a lot of time probing around, it doesn't hold much water. At this point in time, most of the competitive cars in the segment have 1 or two features that stand above the competition, 1 or two that don't and they pretty much hold the line everywhere else.
I HAVE sat in a 3 interior lately. The MS3 to be exact, and it doesn't get any more expensive or well built than that for a Mazda 3. There are hardly any soft touch plastics
Really? Did I say soft touch plastic? Where?
Oh look, the dash is almost all soft-touch rubber. The only parts of the dash (not including radio, hvac) which aren't soft-touch are the little area to the right of the steering column, the MID stack and the middle speaker. Press it with a finger. Yup, it yields under pressure.
, and while grained nicely with good fit and finish, it felt absolutely no better than my 8th gen Civic which is to say, predominantly hard touch stuff that LOOKS better than it feels.
So *most* of the dash being soft-touch rubber invalidates my statement that the "dash is a soft touch rubber"? Let's look at what I said:
- most of the interior materials are a satin black. Go sit in a Mazda 3 GS, go ahead, then tell me I'm a liar
- the dash is a soft touch rubber. Again, go sit in a Mazda 3 GS, touch the dash, then report back here
- parking brake is short and feels solid, blah blah.
- steering wheel and centre console stack look classy in silver and black (this may be subjective, but certainly not a lie)
- The GS has an interior that's far and away better than the 2012 Civics.... my old 2007 Mazda 3 has a better interior than the 2012 Civic! Where did I say ANYWHERE that the Mazda 3's interior is better than an 8th gen civic?
If the Civic is a step down from the 8th gen, then I will cede that the Mazda's is slightly better.
YOu will have no problems finding it several steps down from the 8th gen. Again, look at what I said. Did I assert ANYWHERE that the Mazda's interior was better than the 8th gen's? I happen to like the 8th Gen dark interior with sport cloth, especially that of the Si.
Once again, you have not even sat in a 2012 Civic. Do so, then you can say something.
But if I find it to maintain the quality of my 8th gen in plastics etc, then I will call B.S. Frankly, I have never had much of a problem with Mazda's interiors, but I have haven't ever found them to be head and shoulders above the rest either. The fact that Honda USED to be that way, and no longer is, is disappointing however.
...... never once said anything about bad about the 8th gen interior vs a Mazda.
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