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danielgr
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danielgr wrote:
danielgr wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Little by little Honda is releasing more info, and so far, it seems that the new StepWGN will be a major tour de force. [...]
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Also, as predicted, so far it seems that it has had a positive welcome in the Japanese market (contrary to some recent introductions like the Life / Accord / Ody). According to Honda, first month orders were 18k, which is three times the monthly target. It seems that Honda has got it right again (the Freed has been an enormous hit) in the minivan market.
[...] |
More importantly, instead of weakening sales are getting stronger with time, since the Serena led for the first three months of the year.
All in all, it has been Honda's second best selling car for the first half (after the Fit), and the Industry's 6th, which is quite a feature for the brand.
Also, it seems more and more clear that Honda has taken the Freed to the level of "perennial hit", with sales still strong (only 3000 units behind the all new StepWGN) 2 years after its introduction. That may be the reason why Honda just launched a new "Spike" version, which is like a "lifestyle" version of Honda's small van. With this addition I wouldn't be surprised if the Freed climbed up the charts a bit (more photos here).
[...] |
The gap with the 2nd placed Nissan Serena increased to about 6000 units despite the Serena's FMC at the end of the year, ending 80.934 vs. 75040 for 2010. That was good enough for an overall 7th place in the Japanese market (excluding k-cars).
Interestingly, both the new Toyota Voxy and Serena beat the StepWGN's fuel economy, but it seems that consumers are looking beyond that this time around. I wonder though if it'll be able to retain the lead for a second year (it was best selling van in December but that was a first since September).
As predicted though, the StepWGN couldn't match it's smaller Freed brother, who ended up on a respectable 5th place at 95.123 helped by the Spike variant. The rumored hybrid this year should give it the strength to fight for a top4 in 2011.
For those having more interest on Japanese market, here is the rest of the top 5.
Market leader was of course the Prius by a wide margin (315.669), and having broken a more than a decade long record established by the Corolla long time ago.
Second was to the Fit (185.439), which is closing on the Prius since the government green cash back campaign ended, but still can't reach Toyota's all mighty Prius sales levels.
Third was Toyota's Fit fighter, the Vitz/Yaris (122.248), and fourth was for the fleet-friendly Corolla that sells in so many different variants is difficult to keep track of them (111.265).
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Midi_Amp
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danielgr wrote:
danielgr wrote:
danielgr wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Little by little Honda is releasing more info, and so far, it seems that the new StepWGN will be a major tour de force. [...]
|
Also, as predicted, so far it seems that it has had a positive welcome in the Japanese market (contrary to some recent introductions like the Life / Accord / Ody). According to Honda, first month orders were 18k, which is three times the monthly target. It seems that Honda has got it right again (the Freed has been an enormous hit) in the minivan market.
[...] |
More importantly, instead of weakening sales are getting stronger with time, since the Serena led for the first three months of the year.
All in all, it has been Honda's second best selling car for the first half (after the Fit), and the Industry's 6th, which is quite a feature for the brand.
Also, it seems more and more clear that Honda has taken the Freed to the level of "perennial hit", with sales still strong (only 3000 units behind the all new StepWGN) 2 years after its introduction. That may be the reason why Honda just launched a new "Spike" version, which is like a "lifestyle" version of Honda's small van. With this addition I wouldn't be surprised if the Freed climbed up the charts a bit (more photos here).
[...] |
The gap with the 2nd placed Nissan Serena increased to about 6000 units despite the Serena's FMC at the end of the year, ending 80.934 vs. 75040 for 2010. That was good enough for an overall 7th place in the Japanese market (excluding k-cars).
Interestingly, both the new Toyota Voxy and Serena beat the StepWGN's fuel economy, but it seems that consumers are looking beyond that this time around. I wonder though if it'll be able to retain the lead for a second year (it was best selling van in December but that was a first since September).
As predicted though, the StepWGN couldn't match it's smaller Freed brother, who ended up on a respectable 5th place at 95.123 helped by the Spike variant. The rumored hybrid this year should give it the strength to fight for a top4 in 2011.
For those having more interest on Japanese market, here is the rest of the top 5.
Market leader was of course the Prius by a wide margin (315.669), and having broken a more than a decade long record established by the Corolla long time ago.
Second was to the Fit (185.439), which is closing on the Prius since the government green cash back campaign ended, but still can't reach Toyota's all mighty Prius sales levels.
Third was Toyota's Fit fighter, the Vitz/Yaris (122.248), and fourth was for the fleet-friendly Corolla that sells in so many different variants is difficult to keep track of them (111.265).
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Thanks for the info Daniel, I was expecting the worse when Nissan announced their FMC Serena. I was impressed with the new MR20DD engine, the high torque and the idle start stop system is what a car this size needs. I'm not much of a spec sheet/mfg claim nut, but when an engine shuts itself down when idling, there's got to be fuel savings there.
I'm hoping Honda would bring breakthrough technology for next generation of StepWGN. No need fancy gimmicks and anything, as long it can best Serena engine's power output and efficiency, they can stick to VTEC and SOHC for all I care (it's the result that matters).
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danielgr
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Midi_Amp wrote:
Thanks for the info Daniel, I was expecting the worse when Nissan announced their FMC Serena. I was impressed with the new MR20DD engine, the high torque and the idle start stop system is what a car this size needs. I'm not much of a spec sheet/mfg claim nut, but when an engine shuts itself down when idling, there's got to be fuel savings there.
I'm hoping Honda would bring breakthrough technology for next generation of StepWGN. No need fancy gimmicks and anything, as long it can best Serena engine's power output and efficiency, they can stick to VTEC and SOHC for all I care (it's the result that matters).
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About the Serena, I must admit I was more impressed with the engine than with start&stop. The later has been available in Japan for nearly a decade on cars like Toyota's Vitz, and those I've sampled were quite annoying/jerky to drive around town (hope Nissan's new system improves on that area). I guess though that at the end of the day the massive utility improvement made with this generation StepWGN, offering a clear advantage over the competition for the first time since gen1, is still more important for a minivan.
Either way, as much as I love the idle-stop on my IMA's, I wonder if it's really worth to pay for it alone, even though:
- I must admit it simply feels great not to waste gas on traffic jams/red lights.
- I guess it depends a lot on how and where you drive your car.
In my CR-Z I've driven 14,234 km since August, using 704.8L of gasoline. On that period, the idling-stop has only saved me 5.5L despite using it much more than needed (many times I simply don't cut the ignition even if I know I'll wait for 5 or more minutes). Of course, for someone driving pure city that figure will be greater, but then again, driving pure city you never drive lots of miles, at which point your FE is not so important anymore.
In any case, nearly every high-selling model released in Japan recently uses idle-stop to best Honda's figures on paper, which begs to question : "what is Honda going to do to fight back"? I guess though that the obvious answer is "IMA". As a matter of fact no manufacturer offers yet start/stop over a whole range, but only on selected variants (usually one per model). As such, it seems that Honda's answer will be to add a hybrid model for every car, because IMA's simplicity and cost advantage seems to make it good enough to compete with start-stop systems (the Fit being good proof of it).
So far we've got:
- Insight (hybrid only)
- CR-Z (hybrid only)
- Fit (hybrid model gets most sales; expect hybrid variant to lead)
- Fit Shuttle (available in March, with IMA since day1).
- Civic hybrid (with the new Li pack).
It seems that Honda is also working to bring a Freed hybrid this year (rumours are too widespread at this stage for me to doubt about it), and with that addition more than half of Honda cars sold in Japan might be available with IMA.
In theory the new plug-in stuff is supposed to debut on some kind of Accord (for it to be global), yet where it really makes sense in Japan is on some kind of StepWGN minivan. In any case I would expect that system to be too expensive to have an impact on "real volumes" despite its undeniable marketing appeal.
We'll see.
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Sulev
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danielgr wrote:
[...]
The gap with the 2nd placed Nissan Serena increased to about 6000 units despite the Serena's FMC at the end of the year, ending 80.934 vs. 75040 for 2010. That was good enough for an overall 7th place in the Japanese market (excluding k-cars).
Interestingly, both the new Toyota Voxy and Serena beat the StepWGN's fuel economy, but it seems that consumers are looking beyond that this time around. I wonder though if it'll be able to retain the lead for a second year (it was best selling van in December but that was a first since September).
As predicted though, the StepWGN couldn't match it's smaller Freed brother, who ended up on a respectable 5th place at 95.123 helped by the Spike variant. The rumored hybrid this year should give it the strength to fight for a top4 in 2011.
[...]
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StepWGN is an awesome car, I can attest that because it's my current ride. The ride is extremely smooth, surprisingly huge cabin, and the K20 engine still able to deliver enough punch. However, Daniel is spot on about the fuel economy. It is not fantastic or frugal by any means. In 100% city traffic, at best I can only get 7.9km/liter. Average that I have right now is 6km/liter fuel consumption.
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Midi_Amp
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danielgr wrote:
You are welcome.
About the Serena, I must admit I was more impressed with the engine than with start&stop. The later has been available in Japan for nearly a decade on cars like Toyota's Vitz, and those I've sampled were quite annoying/jerky to drive around town (hope Nissan's new system improves on that area). I guess though that at the end of the day the massive utility improvement made with this generation StepWGN, offering a clear advantage over the competition for the first time since gen1, is still more important for a minivan.
Either way, as much as I love the idle-stop on my IMA's, I wonder if it's really worth to pay for it alone, even though:
- I must admit it simply feels great not to waste gas on traffic jams/red lights.
- I guess it depends a lot on how and where you drive your car.
In my CR-Z I've driven 14,234 km since August, using 704.8L of gasoline. On that period, the idling-stop has only saved me 5.5L despite using it much more than needed (many times I simply don't cut the ignition even if I know I'll wait for 5 or more minutes). Of course, for someone driving pure city that figure will be greater, but then again, driving pure city you never drive lots of miles, at which point your FE is not so important anymore.
In any case, nearly every high-selling model released in Japan recently uses idle-stop to best Honda's figures on paper, which begs to question : "what is Honda going to do to fight back"? I guess though that the obvious answer is "IMA". As a matter of fact no manufacturer offers yet start/stop over a whole range, but only on selected variants (usually one per model). As such, it seems that Honda's answer will be to add a hybrid model for every car, because IMA's simplicity and cost advantage seems to make it good enough to compete with start-stop systems (the Fit being good proof of it).
So far we've got:
- Insight (hybrid only)
- CR-Z (hybrid only)
- Fit (hybrid model gets most sales; expect hybrid variant to lead)
- Fit Shuttle (available in March, with IMA since day1).
- Civic hybrid (with the new Li pack).
It seems that Honda is also working to bring a Freed hybrid this year (rumours are too widespread at this stage for me to doubt about it), and with that addition more than half of Honda cars sold in Japan might be available with IMA.
In theory the new plug-in stuff is supposed to debut on some kind of Accord (for it to be global), yet where it really makes sense in Japan is on some kind of StepWGN minivan. In any case I would expect that system to be too expensive to have an impact on "real volumes" despite its undeniable marketing appeal.
We'll see.
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Yeah, I guess it depends on the traffic condition for the idle stop system to pay in benefit. I felt that idle stop system on an ICE engine would be better solution for developing countries because it's simpler. That, and in my country hybrids are expensive because (stupid) government impose extra tax because it has two engines.
I'm a strong proponent of hybrids as my country's mass transportation is awful in every conceivable meaning and road condition as well lack of respect of the law from other bikers means you're risking your life everyday. But ridiculous regulation stops hybrids dead in the track... FYI, imported CR-Z costs US$65K here, Civic hybrid which is available domestically costs US$60K, and the Prius is about the same.
Regarding the Freed hybrid, I'm curious where Honda would put the battery pack. Honda put Insight and Fit battery pack together with the spare wheel, limiting it to a space saver. It's safer because the spare wheel is accessed from inside the car but Freed's spare wheel is outside under the car. It would be interesting what changes Honda would bring to the car to support the battery pack.
Sulev wrote:
StepWGN is an awesome car, I can attest that because it's my current ride. The ride is extremely smooth, surprisingly huge cabin, and the K20 engine still able to deliver enough punch. However, Daniel is spot on about the fuel economy. It is not fantastic or frugal by any means. In 100% city traffic, at best I can only get 7.9km/liter. Average that I have right now is 6km/liter fuel consumption.
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Ouch! 6 Km/L, I cursed a lot when my Freed hit 9.0 Km/L average. But you do get cavernous interior space, and gazillion more comfort and utility from the StepWGN than the Freed, so I guess it's a fair trade off.
My brother drives gen 1 Stream 2.0, only got 7-8 Km/L average also. A blast to drive though, but he said whether he drives carefully or full blast the difference is minimal so he prefers the latter (thankfully he has extra time to routinely visits the body shop for repair).
I'm curious though... Just visited Honda JP website, and just noticed that the StepWGN width is 1695 mm, same as Fit and Freed, as well as the same Mcpherson strut + torsion beam suspension combo, is StepWGN based on the Fit platform?
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danielgr
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Sulev wrote:
danielgr wrote:
[...]
The gap with the 2nd placed Nissan Serena increased to about 6000 units despite the Serena's FMC at the end of the year, ending 80.934 vs. 75040 for 2010. That was good enough for an overall 7th place in the Japanese market (excluding k-cars).
Interestingly, both the new Toyota Voxy and Serena beat the StepWGN's fuel economy, but it seems that consumers are looking beyond that this time around. I wonder though if it'll be able to retain the lead for a second year (it was best selling van in December but that was a first since September).
As predicted though, the StepWGN couldn't match it's smaller Freed brother, who ended up on a respectable 5th place at 95.123 helped by the Spike variant. The rumored hybrid this year should give it the strength to fight for a top4 in 2011.
[...]
|
StepWGN is an awesome car, I can attest that because it's my current ride. The ride is extremely smooth, surprisingly huge cabin, and the K20 engine still able to deliver enough punch. However, Daniel is spot on about the fuel economy. It is not fantastic or frugal by any means. In 100% city traffic, at best I can only get 7.9km/liter. Average that I have right now is 6km/liter fuel consumption.
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The R20+CVT should have improved FE a lot over your K20 4AT setup.
Besides, less than 10km/L in 100% Japanese city traffic for an 8 seater is pretty normal. Even our Fit doesn't get more than 12-13 km/L in such conditions ..., our Estima hybrid doesn't go beyond 10-11. Yet if you drive all the time in the city you aren't using much gas anyway (same for us, I get much better FE on my CR-Z, but my wife uses way less fuel on her Fit around town...)
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danielgr
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Midi_Amp wrote:
[...]Yeah, I guess it depends on the traffic condition for the idle stop system to pay in benefit. I felt that idle stop system on an ICE engine would be better solution for developing countries because it's simpler. That, and in my country hybrids are expensive because (stupid) government impose extra tax because it has two engines.
I'm a strong proponent of hybrids as my country's mass transportation is awful in every conceivable meaning and road condition as well lack of respect of the law from other bikers means you're risking your life everyday. But ridiculous regulation stops hybrids dead in the track... FYI, imported CR-Z costs US$65K here, Civic hybrid which is available domestically costs US$60K, and the Prius is about the same.
Regarding the Freed hybrid, I'm curious where Honda would put the battery pack. Honda put Insight and Fit battery pack together with the spare wheel, limiting it to a space saver. It's safer because the spare wheel is accessed from inside the car but Freed's spare wheel is outside under the car. It would be interesting what changes Honda would bring to the car to support the battery pack.
[...]
I'm curious though... Just visited Honda JP website, and just noticed that the StepWGN width is 1695 mm, same as Fit and Freed, as well as the same Mcpherson strut + torsion beam suspension combo, is StepWGN based on the Fit platform? |
- I heard before about the "crazy two engines" law... hope you get rid of it asap.
- you know, in your kind of countries I think the major hurdle for start&stop systems would be longterm reliability. Traditionally your type of environment is considerably more agressive than Japan, and I wonder how long it will take for such systems to get widespread over there. Japanese drive really smoothly, and cars are serviced and nurtured to an extent difficult to imagine for any non japanese...
- As for the Freed Hybrid, keep in mind that in Japan the Freed, like the Fit, Insight, CR-Z, don't have spare tires. I think the StepWGN doesn't have one either. I wonder if Honda could bring the Fit Hybrid to places that require a spare (so far only Europe/Japan, both without it).
- I don't think the StepWGN is built around the Fit plank, 'cause it has been around well before the 1st gen Fit, it has a completely different wheelbase, tank positioning, etc. The 1695mm width is a magical number in Japan, which allows the car to fit within a particular tax-class, parking lots, etc. Unless it's strictly necesary and the product is designed to sell abroad all cars are limited to that width for that reason. In the past Honda would even make different versions of global cars just to keep Japanese within those bounds (for example with the 6th gen Accord).
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Sulev
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danielgr wrote:
Sulev wrote:
danielgr wrote:
[...]
The gap with the 2nd placed Nissan Serena increased to about 6000 units despite the Serena's FMC at the end of the year, ending 80.934 vs. 75040 for 2010. That was good enough for an overall 7th place in the Japanese market (excluding k-cars).
Interestingly, both the new Toyota Voxy and Serena beat the StepWGN's fuel economy, but it seems that consumers are looking beyond that this time around. I wonder though if it'll be able to retain the lead for a second year (it was best selling van in December but that was a first since September).
As predicted though, the StepWGN couldn't match it's smaller Freed brother, who ended up on a respectable 5th place at 95.123 helped by the Spike variant. The rumored hybrid this year should give it the strength to fight for a top4 in 2011.
[...]
|
StepWGN is an awesome car, I can attest that because it's my current ride. The ride is extremely smooth, surprisingly huge cabin, and the K20 engine still able to deliver enough punch. However, Daniel is spot on about the fuel economy. It is not fantastic or frugal by any means. In 100% city traffic, at best I can only get 7.9km/liter. Average that I have right now is 6km/liter fuel consumption.
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The R20+CVT should have improved FE a lot over your K20 4AT setup.
Besides, less than 10km/L in 100% Japanese city traffic for an 8 seater is pretty normal. Even our Fit doesn't get more than 12-13 km/L in such conditions ..., our Estima hybrid doesn't go beyond 10-11. Yet if you drive all the time in the city you aren't using much gas anyway (same for us, I get much better FE on my CR-Z, but my wife uses way less fuel on her Fit around town...)
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No I haven't tried the (I assume) the new StepWGN with R20+CVT, yet. My StepWGN is the last model, the last year before the new one. I also believe part of the reason why mine got not so good FE because of the 4AT. But having said that, it is still a joy to drive (and ride). For a such a wide car, it is a very easy car to drive. I believe even the turning radius is actually smaller than the Odyssey.
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Midi_Amp
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danielgr wrote:
- I heard before about the "crazy two engines" law... hope you get rid of it asap.
- you know, in your kind of countries I think the major hurdle for start&stop systems would be longterm reliability. Traditionally your type of environment is considerably more agressive than Japan, and I wonder how long it will take for such systems to get widespread over there. Japanese drive really smoothly, and cars are serviced and nurtured to an extent difficult to imagine for any non japanese...
- As for the Freed Hybrid, keep in mind that in Japan the Freed, like the Fit, Insight, CR-Z, don't have spare tires. I think the StepWGN doesn't have one either. I wonder if Honda could bring the Fit Hybrid to places that require a spare (so far only Europe/Japan, both without it).
- I don't think the StepWGN is built around the Fit plank, 'cause it has been around well before the 1st gen Fit, it has a completely different wheelbase, tank positioning, etc. The 1695mm width is a magical number in Japan, which allows the car to fit within a particular tax-class, parking lots, etc. Unless it's strictly necesary and the product is designed to sell abroad all cars are limited to that width for that reason. In the past Honda would even make different versions of global cars just to keep Japanese within those bounds (for example with the 6th gen Accord).
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Great insight Daniel! I always thought all Honda with 1695mm was by design, but it happens to be also by regulation.
Funny that the cars you mentioned doesn't have spare tires, I thought it's a safety regulation to have one. I saw US bound Insight pictures with that donut shape (and size) spare tire. If you live in my country, you'd wish for a full size spare as many automotive related crimes revolved around puncturing a car's tire.
I don't think two engine regulation will change anytime soon. Our politician only cares about issues that relates with them, since they have money to burn (from rampant corruption), they wouldn't give a [censored for extreme profanity] on hybrids.
Agreed about engine maintenance, but this is applicable to every new technology automotive maker brings to the market. A few years back Peugeot launched the 308 SW with high performing diesel engine in my country... Every car sold broke down because everybody who bought the car is filling the car with cheap subsidized diesel fuel with high sulfur content. Peugeot got a bad rap for it, and struggling (very very hard) to find sales.
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danielgr
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Midi_Amp wrote:
[...] I always thought all Honda with 1695mm was by design, but it happens to be also by regulation.
Funny that the cars you mentioned doesn't have spare tires, I thought it's a safety regulation to have one. I saw US bound Insight pictures with that donut shape (and size) spare tire. If you live in my country, you'd wish for a full size spare as many automotive related crimes revolved around puncturing a car's tire.
I don't think two engine regulation will change anytime soon. Our politician only cares about issues that relates with them, since they have money to burn (from rampant corruption), they wouldn't give a [censored for extreme profanity] on hybrids.
Agreed about engine maintenance, but this is applicable to every new technology automotive maker brings to the market. A few years back Peugeot launched the 308 SW with high performing diesel engine in my country... Every car sold broke down because everybody who bought the car is filling the car with cheap subsidized diesel fuel with high sulfur content. Peugeot got a bad rap for it, and struggling (very very hard) to find sales.
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- Interesting story about Peugeot's diesel. You know, I think Honda understands that one of the things that have taken them where they are in the world is reliability, and I believe that cherishing that reliable/dependable image in emerging countries is a top priority. Many here tend to forget that's actually the main reason driving Honda purchases across the globe; it was never style, nor high performance. I see Honda's decission to go 5AT with the 2nd gen Civic outside Japan as a clear signal for it, they rather bring a "worse" but "reliable" solution than risking any possible taint to their "dependable" image.
- I wrote about that other times, but in Japan spare wheels are simply becoming redundant nowadays. The way I see it:
1st) Regardless of what any Japanese may tell you, "there is no crime in Japan".
2nd) The vast majority of roads are in very good condition and clean.
3rd) Road service is omnipresent, and it's very hard to be far from a place that could help you out. Most Japanese actually have some kind of insurance for it as well.
4th) I don't know a single Japanese that would consider changing its own wheel himself even if he/she had it.
As a general rule, Japanese try to cut costs as much as possible when producing, even buying goods, but they love to spend in service.
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