80honda
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Very interesting.
If so, this is probably the same engine going in the Crosstour.
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CanTex
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http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=949518
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gogzy
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true, very interesting. Honda did not opt to use k23t in this case. and i wonder if it will further reduce the redline from k24.
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99SI
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I think we would be talking about 190hp and 190lbft roughly. That would be about perfect for the CRV. I bet somehow / someway fuel economy increases too.
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98EX4cyl
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80honda wrote:
Very interesting.
If so, this is probably the same engine going in the Crosstour.
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All new means???
1) new to the CRV, ie 2.3 T from RDX?
2) new configuration, i.e. Still a K but more than 2.4
3) not a K series
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&REY
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I am hoping this a completely new engine line.
Perhaps Civic Si will get 2.4 version of this engine, which will be short stroke version, while CR-V get 2.6/2.7 long stroke version.
This way Civic will be able to maintain high redline!
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80honda
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98EX4cyl wrote:
80honda wrote:
Very interesting.
If so, this is probably the same engine going in the Crosstour.
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All new means???
1) new to the CRV, ie 2.3 T from RDX?
2) new configuration, i.e. Still a K but more than 2.4
3) not a K series
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I think the K-series is still a fantastic building block for Honda. Sure it has been around for a few years, but few if any competitors are really better.
1,2, and 3.
I doubt the new motor will be any variation of the K-series. I don't think Honda can push the displacement any further.
So, probably a new motor along the lines of Toyota's new 2.7 they developed for trucks and CUVs. More of a low rpm torque motor for applications like the Crosstour and the CR-V.
The real question is, is the K-series going to be phased out?
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JeffX
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98EX4cyl wrote:
80honda wrote:
Very interesting.
If so, this is probably the same engine going in the Crosstour.
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All new means???
1) new to the CRV, ie 2.3 T from RDX?
2) new configuration, i.e. Still a K but more than 2.4
3) not a K series
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I don't know how much more you can feasibly stroke the k-series and I'm pretty sure the bore is maxed out already, so if it gets up into the 2.6-2.7L range as suggested I'm thinking it will need to be a new configuration.
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Longhorn
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80honda wrote:
98EX4cyl wrote:
80honda wrote:
Very interesting.
If so, this is probably the same engine going in the Crosstour.
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All new means???
1) new to the CRV, ie 2.3 T from RDX?
2) new configuration, i.e. Still a K but more than 2.4
3) not a K series
|
I think the K-series is still a fantastic building block for Honda. Sure it has been around for a few years, but few if any competitors are really better.
1,2, and 3.
I doubt the new motor will be any variation of the K-series. I don't think Honda can push the displacement any further.
So, probably a new motor along the lines of Toyota's new 2.7 they developed for trucks and CUVs. More of a low rpm torque motor for applications like the Crosstour and the CR-V.
The real question is, is the K-series going to be phased out?
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Why stop there, Toyota dropped the 2.7 into the Highlander, could Honda have the same idea for the Pilot MMC this fall too?
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80honda
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Toyota dropped it in the 4-runner for a short time, but the take rate was dismal.
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auto_enthu
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All new engine that is slightly bigger than 2.4 L is good news especially for CRV.
It will address CRV's biggest complaint: Low low-rpm torque.
At the same time, if Honda can address noise issues with the current CRV and improve the MPG to 30+ mpg, CRV will become an unbeatable ideal small CUV.
The current generation chassis is an extremely capable chassis. So, keeping the chassis (as some rumors indicate) should be absolutely fine.
Also, I hope the weight of the CRV won't go up much.
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atomiclightbulb
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Jeff wrote:
I don't know how much more you can feasibly stroke the k-series and I'm pretty sure the bore is maxed out already, so if it gets up into the 2.6-2.7L range as suggested I'm thinking it will need to be a new configuration. |
I'm excited at the prospect of a successor to the K-series engines, but at the same time, I hope Honda is able to preserve what is great about the K: it's incredibly smooth from idle to redline, and it sounds great too.
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HONDA AFVM
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&REY wrote:
I am hoping this a completely new engine line.
Perhaps Civic Si will get 2.4 version of this engine, which will be short stroke version, while CR-V get 2.6/2.7 long stroke version.
This way Civic will be able to maintain high redline!
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My understanding is that starting with the Civic, every New Honda will have a new engine that is a specific fit for the car it goes in..........
Trans........my educated guess is the 12 Civic will have a 6speed auto trans and just the gas car will have 41MPG Hwy and 30 City.
The new CRV is supposed to be a wizard as the new Civic is. Fuel economy will increase as will the engines HP and size.........There could very well be another model in the line other then the LX, EX and EXL. To achieve the higher FE, I wouldn't be surprised if a 6speed auto made it in the CRV too...........
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HONDA AFVM
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Longhorn wrote:
80honda wrote:
98EX4cyl wrote:
80honda wrote:
Very interesting.
If so, this is probably the same engine going in the Crosstour.
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All new means???
1) new to the CRV, ie 2.3 T from RDX?
2) new configuration, i.e. Still a K but more than 2.4
3) not a K series
|
I think the K-series is still a fantastic building block for Honda. Sure it has been around for a few years, but few if any competitors are really better.
1,2, and 3.
I doubt the new motor will be any variation of the K-series. I don't think Honda can push the displacement any further.
So, probably a new motor along the lines of Toyota's new 2.7 they developed for trucks and CUVs. More of a low rpm torque motor for applications like the Crosstour and the CR-V.
The real question is, is the K-series going to be phased out?
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Why stop there, Toyota dropped the 2.7 into the Highlander, could Honda have the same idea for the Pilot MMC this fall too?
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Pilot focus will be a 6speed auto, but across the line up I would think...........
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notyper
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Did some patent research and couldn't find anything really relevant for Honda in the last 6-9 months (there was a new patent for another valve switching tech just approved, but it was applied for 3 years ago).
The current K-series can be bored and stroked to 2.7 liters, but that's currently only done on very short lived drag motors (making about 500 hp at the crank NA). It requires a stroke in the 105-106mm range and a bore of 89-90mm.
Now, if Honda were to do what they did with the old B20 when they used a thinner casting to get 3mm more bore, they could get a true 2.5 (2520cc) while keeping the 99mm stroke of the K24. That's 7% increase in displacement which would boost bottom end torque a lot.
I'd be kind of surprised if they launched a whole new engine family, given how good their K-series head already is. I think it would be more likely to see some tech tweaks to up the displacement of the K, and then combine it with variable exhaust cam timing to boost torque, reduce emissions and improve economy. I could see a K25 in CRV/Accord trim pumping out 190hp@6300 rpm and 180lbs-ft@4000 with no loss in fuel economy even using the 5AT.
But hey, if they've got something all new, I think that's cool and look forward to seeing it.
SC
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jgalvan
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notyper wrote:
Did some patent research and couldn't find anything really relevant for Honda in the last 6-9 months (there was a new patent for another valve switching tech just approved, but it was applied for 3 years ago).
The current K-series can be bored and stroked to 2.7 liters, but that's currently only done on very short lived drag motors (making about 500 hp at the crank NA). It requires a stroke in the 105-106mm range and a bore of 89-90mm.
Now, if Honda were to do what they did with the old B20 when they used a thinner casting to get 3mm more bore, they could get a true 2.5 (2520cc) while keeping the 99mm stroke of the K24. That's 7% increase in displacement which would boost bottom end torque a lot.
I'd be kind of surprised if they launched a whole new engine family, given how good their K-series head already is. I think it would be more likely to see some tech tweaks to up the displacement of the K, and then combine it with variable exhaust cam timing to boost torque, reduce emissions and improve economy. I could see a K25 in CRV/Accord trim pumping out 190hp@6300 rpm and 180lbs-ft@4000 with no loss in fuel economy even using the 5AT.
But hey, if they've got something all new, I think that's cool and look forward to seeing it.
SC
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Why not a small displacement V6. like 3.0L? Would it fit? I think this has been talked about before but don't remember. Also are the new fuel economy figures calculated on weighted avg of numbers sold or just the lineup? If just the lineup couldn't the offer of a 4cyl in the CrossTour help?
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notyper
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Don't know about fitment but a V6 would add a lot of cost. On a per unit basis a new 4cyl should add little cost (assuming they are amortizing costs across long term sales). A V6 contains a lot more parts, especially expensive stuff like pistons and rods plus extra castings.
While I agree that V6s can return similar real world economy try will fall short on EPA testing
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jgalvan
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notyper wrote:
Don't know about fitment but a V6 would add a lot of cost. On a per unit basis a new 4cyl should add little cost (assuming they are amortizing costs across long term sales). A V6 contains a lot more parts, especially expensive stuff like pistons and rods plus extra castings.
While I agree that V6s can return similar real world economy try will fall short on EPA testing
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Damn EPA testing. Someone should come up with a testing service that test new cars off the dealers lot utilizing some real world driving conditions. It could be several different courses. City congested, City, City and Highway, Highway, Highway congested. Try at different methods of acceleration, full throttle, half throttle, light throttle. Then sell the results to individuals looking at making car purchases. Who knows the manufacturers may want in. We need some enterprising engineer type with both street and factory cred.... Any suggestions Shawn?
Now I would invest some coin in that.
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Varmint
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I always come back to this article when I think about that B20.
http://dwolsten.tripod.com/articles/jan96a.html
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owequitit
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Interesting article, I had not seen that one.
Observationally, I find it fascinating how Honda still very much employees that same mentallity with their engines, but gets ZERO credit for it in this day and age. Not sure if it is the media juggernaut or less informed enthusiasts. Oh well.
I thought it was interesting that the cylinder coating techniques (nearly all of them) have since been made feasible by Honda and put into production. Not the least of which is the deposited cylinder liner technology that the article states is most desireable in the J37.
For the record, the H22 featured the Nickasil coating on an aluminum insert, and the J37 features the metal matrix deposited liners.
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Colin
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Varmint wrote:
For the record, the H22 featured the Nickasil coating on an aluminum insert, and the J37 features the metal matrix deposited liners.
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Last edited by RyanDL on 01-09-2011 01:02
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owequitit
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Colin wrote:
owequitit wrote:
For the record, the H22 featured the Nickasil coating on an aluminum insert, and the J37 features the metal matrix deposited liners.
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Would you be using Metal Matrix to describe Fiber Reinforce Metal?
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Nah, I thought I remembered reading somewhere than they were metal matrix cylinder liners, but apparently, they are just etched to reveal silicone.
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bluefz22
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I want me some of that new,highly tuned,2.7 in my SI.
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99SI
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Does someone know the reason why Honda went away from the J30? Is the J35 and J37 the same size/ weight? In my eyes that motor was perfect in all aspects. Especially with a 6MT. I was thinking this would have been a perfect fit for the TSX and CRV so that they don't step on the TL and Pilot in anyway.
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HONDA AFVM
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notyper wrote:
Did some patent research and couldn't find anything really relevant for Honda in the last 6-9 months (there was a new patent for another valve switching tech just approved, but it was applied for 3 years ago).
The current K-series can be bored and stroked to 2.7 liters, but that's currently only done on very short lived drag motors (making about 500 hp at the crank NA). It requires a stroke in the 105-106mm range and a bore of 89-90mm.
Now, if Honda were to do what they did with the old B20 when they used a thinner casting to get 3mm more bore, they could get a true 2.5 (2520cc) while keeping the 99mm stroke of the K24. That's 7% increase in displacement which would boost bottom end torque a lot.
I'd be kind of surprised if they launched a whole new engine family, given how good their K-series head already is. I think it would be more likely to see some tech tweaks to up the displacement of the K, and then combine it with variable exhaust cam timing to boost torque, reduce emissions and improve economy. I could see a K25 in CRV/Accord trim pumping out 190hp@6300 rpm and 180lbs-ft@4000 with no loss in fuel economy even using the 5AT.
But hey, if they've got something all new, I think that's cool and look forward to seeing it.
SC
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My understanding is it's not going to be a 2.4, will be more fuel efficient and more powerful..........If the increase is 2.5 then I am not sure how much of a difference that will make, you are the tuner, I bet you could get 100HP from that increase LOL! I am going by what I hear........If the power comes from what you said about the exhaust then the FE will come from the Trans because 6 speed autos are coming fast to Honda.
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80honda
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owequitit wrote:
Interesting article, I had not seen that one.
Observationally, I find it fascinating how Honda still very much employees that same mentallity with their engines, but gets ZERO credit for it in this day and age. Not sure if it is the media juggernaut or less informed enthusiasts. Oh well.
I thought it was interesting that the cylinder coating techniques (nearly all of them) have since been made feasible by Honda and put into production. Not the least of which is the deposited cylinder liner technology that the article states is most desireable in the J37.
For the record, the H22 featured the Nickasil coating on an aluminum insert, and the J37 features the metal matrix deposited liners.
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Today, shoppers fall for gimmicks. The latest buzz words. Branding. Take for instance the term DI. Everyone is all gaga over DI, yet most have no idea what DI is about.
Second is things like Ford applying a marketing buzz word to an already proven technology. ECOBOOST. It is just a marketing buzz word, and the blogs eat it up as the latest and greatest invention when it is actually nothing new at all.
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owequitit
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99SI wrote:
Does someone know the reason why Honda went away from the J30? Is the J35 and J37 the same size/ weight? In my eyes that motor was perfect in all aspects. Especially with a 6MT. I was thinking this would have been a perfect fit for the TSX and CRV so that they don't step on the TL and Pilot in anyway.
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The J series are all externally identical for the most part. There is some variation in the heads, but not a lot. The J37 actually has the lightest block of all the J series, because it has the most material removed for pistons etc. So there is no inherent advantage weight wise to running a J30, and although it was a superb engine, it wouldn't have had sufficient torque to compete in the marketplace, although ironically, it puts up nearly the same fight as the VCM J35, but gets CREAMED by the non-VCM versions.
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dbthompson
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HONDA AFVM wrote: ... If the power comes from what you said about the exhaust then the FE will come from the Trans because 6 speed autos are coming fast to Honda.
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Andrew, any disclosable indication that the 6 speed autos might be spreading across the Odyssey line (i.e past the Tourings)?
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vtiman
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let us cast our minds back to mid- november 2010 to the la auto show where honda unveiled its new hybrid engine pack to be used in a mid sized sedan platform.
earlier in the year there was speculation that honda was developing a new version of ima/hybrid that was thought would be suitable for smaller suvs/cuvs/ whateveruv's !
so i suggest that it is in fact going to power the crosstour and the crv and probably the next accord.
in fact it seems inevitable but is it linked to the engine in this story or is there to be another engine as base ?
a 2.0 litre 4 cyl with 120 kw of electrical power to assist would have the low down torque necessary for such vehicles. the standard 160hp i-vtec as fitted to the euro accord has a good blend of power and economy already.
presumably the new 2.0 part of the equation may not have 160 hp of course but only time will tell ! and if honda is now happy with turbos, throw one of those in for good measure. or better still, substitute the 2.0 atkinson for the 2.2 i-dtec (turbo already included!)
It was honda that came out with the accord hybrid with the idea of power and economy - it wasnt popular but the times have changed since then.
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HONDA AFVM
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dbthompson wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote: ... If the power comes from what you said about the exhaust then the FE will come from the Trans because 6 speed autos are coming fast to Honda.
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Andrew, any disclosable indication that the 6 speed autos might be spreading across the Odyssey line (i.e past the Tourings)?
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No answer on that?? Sorry. My current source isn't as accurate as my past one was (retired), they have been about 80%..........
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