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Powered by Honda
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siegen wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
Can't believe Acura is still afloat. Honda should do what FORD did with Mercury!! Kill it while its down.
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Sarcasm? Difficult to distinguish.
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no not sarcasm.
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owequitit
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CivicB18 wrote:
I'm certainly not suggesting that Acura could or should offer a complete new line of vehicles in the current state of the economy. However, they don't have the option to leave the RL as is for much longer as it was pretty much behind the competition not too long after it debuted in 2005.
I fear that Honda will keep repeating the same mistake over and over again with the RL as the 3.5RL and current generation have been mediocre and uninspiring. Lower pricing structure, SH-awd, substantial MMC and tech packages cant even begin save this car.
Maybe Acura should discontinue the RL until the market stabilizes and then shoot for the stars as Acura cant afford to sit still. Acura cant progress without continuous and consistent investment and development.
What do you suggest? Keep the embarrassingly slow selling RL as is for 3-4 more years or start to develop something else that can measure up? You cant just blame the market for Acura's current issues as Honda helped put Acura in this situation. Reality is a bitch.
~Patrick
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You are currently applying large and definite assumptions here that are clearly not based on fact.
1) The TSX and TL are relatively new offerings. You make it sound as though they haven't replaced anything in years, and have no plans to.
2) You are complaining about this widespread overlap in size/power, but with the exception of the RL, which hasn't been redesigned since the TL debuted, and thus hasn't had a chance to move up, this is completely and patently false.
One sit in a TSX versus a TL would VERY CLEARLY illustrate that the TL is much larger. In fact, the TSX is similar in interior room (slightly larger) to a 3 series, and the TL is larger than a 5 series. So the REALITY is that there is more size differentiation between a TSX and TL than there is between a 3 and a 5, or a C and an E for that matter.
2) Are you really trying to state that the TSX and TL overlap greatly in terms of power? Let's be realistic. They aren't close in terms of power, except with the V6 which does exactly what people like you said it should. End where the TL starts. And it does.
The PROBLEM is that you are taking issues with the RL, which Honda has already said overlaps with the TL too much, and baselessly applying that problem to the entire lineup which really doesn't exist. The RL problem exists, because it was too small from the beginning, and when they moved the TL up, it was similar in size. They haven't yet redesigned the RL, which is why there is a problem. It would be silly not to expect Acura to correct the issue at the next FMC (which is not 4-5 years away, but probably about 1), considering they have already acknowledged the problem, and 2) have already stated they were correcting it.
I love how we are still picking and choosing facts to support a bias against something we don't want to like... Maybe someday objectivity will come to fairy land. One can only hope.
3) You can assail FWD all you want, but the fact is that Audi has already proven that nose heavy FWD cars can compete in the upper echelons of the market with the A6 and A8, neither of which share the improved weight distribution of the A4.
The RL's fundamental problems in the upper classes are size, horsepower, and styling, all of which are easily fixable. Yes, even for Honda.
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owequitit
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lexusgs wrote:
80honda wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
Regardless of how well or how bad the car market is, manufacturers are still required to develop and produce competent offerings if they want to stay in business. That said, Acura has been tip toeing around way too long and its time to get down to business so their own business case can be justified. They cant afford to sit and do nothing.
~Patrick
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Required? Why should Honda be REQUIRED to build a car no one will buy?
Last time I looked, Honda is one of the few car companies NOT bleeding losses.
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Honda is not bleeding losses because they cut out of F1, canceled the ASC sports car, cancelled v8 and rwd for the future, and have not been putting or developing any new technology in their vehicles, using the same old engines and transmissions. While making all those giant cuts just to make a small profit in a bad economy may seem pretty good to some they have ruined a prime opportunity to advance Acura and their new cars are turning off many customers, many feel their offerings are now inferior and outdated to the competition. Acura vehicles are selling with big discounts and lower prices then the competition. Honda is betting and hoping gas prices will skyrocket, the economy will suck forever, and more and more stronger CAFE regulations will stifle v8s, performance, and rwd which is why they have completely given up on those segments they never wanted to put any effort in.
All the other lux companies are going ahead with rwd, performance, innovation, new features, etc which many see as those companies having confidence and still trying even in a bad economy and that will effect sales and perception in the future.
It is pretty sad when a company just hunkers down and cancels all innovation and advancement just to hope for bad times so they don't have to put any effort into vehicles they never wanted to make(ASC, rwd, v8, coupes, v10, DSG, DI, etc) and can just base everything on Honda Accords and Honda powerplants. When the economy gets better and if gas prices don't skyrocket Acura especially is going to be in a horrible position again and it will take years and years if they decide to finally offer the vehicles customers are demanding which BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, and now Hyundai and even Kia are offering or going to be offering. They are going to be the laughing stock with their outdated Accord based lineup while other companies reap the rewards of putting the effort in.
Thing is Acura could make a lux sedan that gets better mileage with a v8 and rwd over another overweight slow v6 fwd Accord based RL that will need a heavy power/fuel economy sapping awd system to try to cope with torque steer and all the negative characteristics that go along with basing a flagship "luxury" sedan on a inexpensive fwd family sedan. The larger quicker rwd Lexus LS460 with a 380hp v8 gets better fuel economy then the smaller slower 290-300hp v6 awd RL. If Honda was so worried about fuel economy why do they still continue with the same formula that gets the worse fuel economy while the vehicle is still smaller and slower?
Acura will probably stuff a mild hybrid in the next RL that will make it even heavier, slower, and more expensive while not getting any better fuel economy or performing any better because it will still be based on a Honda Accord and need the awd system standard.
Is building just one rwd platform for a few Acura vehicles and having a v8 option really that difficult and unattainable for Honda/Acura? Why can all the other companies do it yet Honda can't or they seem to say it will cost them way too much? Honda just seems to be the big company that can't or simply stubbornly refuses for some reason.
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The real problem is that you don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.
You come on here with your sensational derogatory campaign and make all sorts of outlandish claims about stuff you are not important enough to know (like how Honda spends R&D dollars, and what they are or aren't developing), and then make assumptions based on outmoded product that is close to replacement as if to support that. People might actually take you seriously, if you worked in the realm of fact, but clearly that is still too much to ask.
What exactly has Lexus done to develop new product? The 1GR is getting pretty long in the tooth now (it is a whole 5 years old) and Lexus has done nothing to make major updates to it. They haven't advanced chassis tech, and they are still rehashing their old concept of HSD. Clearly, they should innovate, because at this point BMW, MB and Audi are offering far superior product, hence why their sales have suffered.
But hey, if speculation, lies, misjudements and sensationalism worked in the real world, you would surely qualify for a candy sucker and a baloon.
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Blue_Sky_surfer
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CivicB18 wrote:
I believe the new A4, TT, A5 all currently use the newest Audi longitudinal layout and the A6 and A8 will soon follow ...
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Oh my, I think Audi TT shares platform with VW Golf/Jetta etc., am I wrong?
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owequitit
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Blue_Sky_surfer wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
I believe the new A4, TT, A5 all currently use the newest Audi longitudinal layout and the A6 and A8 will soon follow ...
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Oh my, I think Audi TT shares platform with VW Golf/Jetta etc., am I wrong?
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Civic B18: It would appear that you are incorrect, at least in regard to the A8. I am not sure what the future holds for the A6, as I haven't heard much, but the A8 that just debuted is on the same platform that it is on currently. Maybe it had something to do with the aluminum space frame, but it is still very much nose heavy, with a large front overhang and most of the engine hanging well in front of the axle line.
Also, I just read something the other day that talked about how VW was consolidating platforms down into 2 (it was not completely clear if this also included Audi, but I suspect not), where all dimensions ahead of the firewall will be the same, and only the wheelbase will change.
You are going to see more and more of this as companies come up with ways to further cut costs, and Honda will be one of them, I am sure. The only saving grace Honda has, is that they focused on assembly line techology rather than platform sharing, which currently allows them to build a variety of platforms with the same tooling, and even on the same day. This may allow them some flexibility to have more platforms, but I wouldn't count on it.
As to Blue_Sky_surfer, every company shares platforms, but it depends on their ability to differentiate the platform so you can't tell that it is shared with a lesser vehicle. Honestly, other than the styling, the new TL actually pulls that off VERY well, as there are no major dimensions shared with the Accord, and the two cars look nothing alike. I suspect it will be the same with the RL. The problem with the TL is that most people are not willing to look past the styling, and thus they just automatically slam it, without having a clue as to what differentiates it.
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lexusgs
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owequitit wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
80honda wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
Regardless of how well or how bad the car market is, manufacturers are still required to develop and produce competent offerings if they want to stay in business. That said, Acura has been tip toeing around way too long and its time to get down to business so their own business case can be justified. They cant afford to sit and do nothing.
~Patrick
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Required? Why should Honda be REQUIRED to build a car no one will buy?
Last time I looked, Honda is one of the few car companies NOT bleeding losses.
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Honda is not bleeding losses because they cut out of F1, canceled the ASC sports car, cancelled v8 and rwd for the future, and have not been putting or developing any new technology in their vehicles, using the same old engines and transmissions. While making all those giant cuts just to make a small profit in a bad economy may seem pretty good to some they have ruined a prime opportunity to advance Acura and their new cars are turning off many customers, many feel their offerings are now inferior and outdated to the competition. Acura vehicles are selling with big discounts and lower prices then the competition. Honda is betting and hoping gas prices will skyrocket, the economy will suck forever, and more and more stronger CAFE regulations will stifle v8s, performance, and rwd which is why they have completely given up on those segments they never wanted to put any effort in.
All the other lux companies are going ahead with rwd, performance, innovation, new features, etc which many see as those companies having confidence and still trying even in a bad economy and that will effect sales and perception in the future.
It is pretty sad when a company just hunkers down and cancels all innovation and advancement just to hope for bad times so they don't have to put any effort into vehicles they never wanted to make(ASC, rwd, v8, coupes, v10, DSG, DI, etc) and can just base everything on Honda Accords and Honda powerplants. When the economy gets better and if gas prices don't skyrocket Acura especially is going to be in a horrible position again and it will take years and years if they decide to finally offer the vehicles customers are demanding which BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, and now Hyundai and even Kia are offering or going to be offering. They are going to be the laughing stock with their outdated Accord based lineup while other companies reap the rewards of putting the effort in.
Thing is Acura could make a lux sedan that gets better mileage with a v8 and rwd over another overweight slow v6 fwd Accord based RL that will need a heavy power/fuel economy sapping awd system to try to cope with torque steer and all the negative characteristics that go along with basing a flagship "luxury" sedan on a inexpensive fwd family sedan. The larger quicker rwd Lexus LS460 with a 380hp v8 gets better fuel economy then the smaller slower 290-300hp v6 awd RL. If Honda was so worried about fuel economy why do they still continue with the same formula that gets the worse fuel economy while the vehicle is still smaller and slower?
Acura will probably stuff a mild hybrid in the next RL that will make it even heavier, slower, and more expensive while not getting any better fuel economy or performing any better because it will still be based on a Honda Accord and need the awd system standard.
Is building just one rwd platform for a few Acura vehicles and having a v8 option really that difficult and unattainable for Honda/Acura? Why can all the other companies do it yet Honda can't or they seem to say it will cost them way too much? Honda just seems to be the big company that can't or simply stubbornly refuses for some reason.
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The real problem is that you don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.
You come on here with your sensational derogatory campaign and make all sorts of outlandish claims about stuff you are not important enough to know (like how Honda spends R&D dollars, and what they are or aren't developing), and then make assumptions based on outmoded product that is close to replacement as if to support that. People might actually take you seriously, if you worked in the realm of fact, but clearly that is still too much to ask.
What exactly has Lexus done to develop new product? The 1GR is getting pretty long in the tooth now (it is a whole 5 years old) and Lexus has done nothing to make major updates to it. They haven't advanced chassis tech, and they are still rehashing their old concept of HSD. Clearly, they should innovate, because at this point BMW, MB and Audi are offering far superior product, hence why their sales have suffered.
But hey, if speculation, lies, misjudements and sensationalism worked in the real world, you would surely qualify for a candy sucker and a baloon.
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Wow, a little slow aren't you. My post you are replying to now is from October of last year. You really offer nothing of substance or any intelligence in your post for me to really reply to other then childish name calling so I will just comment on you commenting about Lexus. Just so you know I am no Lexus fanboy nor am I even a big fan who praises them all the time as you can see in my previous posts, don't assume just because Lexus is in my screen name that I quickly chose when signing up that I am some big Lexus fanatic because I am not and I absolutely can't stand Toyota's lineup since they dropped the Supra, MR2 turbo, and celica all trac.
Not sure why you brought up the 1GR as an insult to Lexus because they don't use that engine in any current Lexus model in the US, the 1 GR is mainly used in trucks. They have developed new engines like the 2GR-FE used in the current ES and RX and 2GR-FSG used in the IS and GS as well as other variations of the GR used in different models. The 2GR-FE is not all that special but the 2GR-FSG used in the IS350 and GS350 is pretty impressive. It is rated at 306hp from 3.5 liters but most insiders say it is under rated and really making closer to 315hp. The IS350 with a 2GR-FSG has done 0-60 in 4.8 seconds with a automatic and the larger heavier GS350awd automatic can get from 0-60 in 5.3 seconds while getting decent fuel economy. Lexus does not offer just v6s, they l offer v8s in many other models including a 400+ one in the IS-f and now they offer a 550hp v10 in the LFA. Where are Acura's v8s or v10's or at least one powerplant making over 305hp or at least one rwd car. Come on Acura.
As for Lexus developing new products, are you kidding me? They were the first with a 8 speed auto, have DI v6s and v8s, powerful hybrids, they just came out with the LFA with a 550hp v-10 and other firsts, etc. Again I am not blown away by Lexus or what they are currently offering but they are innovating and at least trying and have much more to offer then what Acura has to compete with other Luxury brands.
If Acura is going the hybrid route with the next RL is it going to beat the hp and performance at least of the GS450h that had 340hp and 0-60 in 5.2 sec back in 2007. I admit I still think the GS450h is a bit pointless but they still had it out since 07 and it is not like Lexus or the competition is going to stay at 340hp or 0-60 in 5.2 sec either with the next generation that is already under development.
I hope Acura has realized that they really need to try and set the bar very high with the next RL and it needs to be a big deal for the company and a home run, they can't do that by just basing it on a Honda Accord again and throwing in a hybrid Honda v6. If they make the RL like the current one but just a little bigger with a "little" more power from some hybrid v6 stuffed in it then it will surely fail again and I don't want to see that. I do like the last RL before the beak/facelift and think it has one of the nicest interiors in its class and want to see the RL succeed and define the brands future.
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owequitit
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lexusgs wrote:
owequitit wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
80honda wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
Regardless of how well or how bad the car market is, manufacturers are still required to develop and produce competent offerings if they want to stay in business. That said, Acura has been tip toeing around way too long and its time to get down to business so their own business case can be justified. They cant afford to sit and do nothing.
~Patrick
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Required? Why should Honda be REQUIRED to build a car no one will buy?
Last time I looked, Honda is one of the few car companies NOT bleeding losses.
|
Honda is not bleeding losses because they cut out of F1, canceled the ASC sports car, cancelled v8 and rwd for the future, and have not been putting or developing any new technology in their vehicles, using the same old engines and transmissions. While making all those giant cuts just to make a small profit in a bad economy may seem pretty good to some they have ruined a prime opportunity to advance Acura and their new cars are turning off many customers, many feel their offerings are now inferior and outdated to the competition. Acura vehicles are selling with big discounts and lower prices then the competition. Honda is betting and hoping gas prices will skyrocket, the economy will suck forever, and more and more stronger CAFE regulations will stifle v8s, performance, and rwd which is why they have completely given up on those segments they never wanted to put any effort in.
All the other lux companies are going ahead with rwd, performance, innovation, new features, etc which many see as those companies having confidence and still trying even in a bad economy and that will effect sales and perception in the future.
It is pretty sad when a company just hunkers down and cancels all innovation and advancement just to hope for bad times so they don't have to put any effort into vehicles they never wanted to make(ASC, rwd, v8, coupes, v10, DSG, DI, etc) and can just base everything on Honda Accords and Honda powerplants. When the economy gets better and if gas prices don't skyrocket Acura especially is going to be in a horrible position again and it will take years and years if they decide to finally offer the vehicles customers are demanding which BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, and now Hyundai and even Kia are offering or going to be offering. They are going to be the laughing stock with their outdated Accord based lineup while other companies reap the rewards of putting the effort in.
Thing is Acura could make a lux sedan that gets better mileage with a v8 and rwd over another overweight slow v6 fwd Accord based RL that will need a heavy power/fuel economy sapping awd system to try to cope with torque steer and all the negative characteristics that go along with basing a flagship "luxury" sedan on a inexpensive fwd family sedan. The larger quicker rwd Lexus LS460 with a 380hp v8 gets better fuel economy then the smaller slower 290-300hp v6 awd RL. If Honda was so worried about fuel economy why do they still continue with the same formula that gets the worse fuel economy while the vehicle is still smaller and slower?
Acura will probably stuff a mild hybrid in the next RL that will make it even heavier, slower, and more expensive while not getting any better fuel economy or performing any better because it will still be based on a Honda Accord and need the awd system standard.
Is building just one rwd platform for a few Acura vehicles and having a v8 option really that difficult and unattainable for Honda/Acura? Why can all the other companies do it yet Honda can't or they seem to say it will cost them way too much? Honda just seems to be the big company that can't or simply stubbornly refuses for some reason.
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The real problem is that you don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.
You come on here with your sensational derogatory campaign and make all sorts of outlandish claims about stuff you are not important enough to know (like how Honda spends R&D dollars, and what they are or aren't developing), and then make assumptions based on outmoded product that is close to replacement as if to support that. People might actually take you seriously, if you worked in the realm of fact, but clearly that is still too much to ask.
What exactly has Lexus done to develop new product? The 1GR is getting pretty long in the tooth now (it is a whole 5 years old) and Lexus has done nothing to make major updates to it. They haven't advanced chassis tech, and they are still rehashing their old concept of HSD. Clearly, they should innovate, because at this point BMW, MB and Audi are offering far superior product, hence why their sales have suffered.
But hey, if speculation, lies, misjudements and sensationalism worked in the real world, you would surely qualify for a candy sucker and a baloon.
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Wow, a little slow aren't you. My post you are replying to now is from October of last year. You really offer nothing of substance or any intelligence in your post for me to really reply to other then childish name calling so I will just comment on you commenting about Lexus. Just so you know I am no Lexus fanboy nor am I even a big fan who praises them all the time as you can see in my previous posts, don't assume just because Lexus is in my screen name that I quickly chose when signing up that I am some big Lexus fanatic because I am not and I absolutely can't stand Toyota's lineup since they dropped the Supra, MR2 turbo, and celica all trac.
Not sure why you brought up the 1GR as an insult to Lexus because they don't use that engine in any current Lexus model in the US, the 1 GR is mainly used in trucks. They have developed new engines like the 2GR-FE used in the current ES and RX and 2GR-FSG used in the IS and GS as well as other variations of the GR used in different models. The 2GR-FE is not all that special but the 2GR-FSG used in the IS350 and GS350 is pretty impressive. It is rated at 306hp from 3.5 liters but most insiders say it is under rated and really making closer to 315hp. The IS350 with a 2GR-FSG has done 0-60 in 4.8 seconds with a automatic and the larger heavier GS350awd automatic can get from 0-60 in 5.3 seconds while getting decent fuel economy. Lexus does not offer just v6s, they l offer v8s in many other models including a 400+ one in the IS-f and now they offer a 550hp v10 in the LFA. Where are Acura's v8s or v10's or at least one powerplant making over 305hp or at least one rwd car. Come on Acura.
As for Lexus developing new products, are you kidding me? They were the first with a 8 speed auto, have DI v6s and v8s, powerful hybrids, they just came out with the LFA with a 550hp v-10 and other firsts, etc. Again I am not blown away by Lexus or what they are currently offering but they are innovating and at least trying and have much more to offer then what Acura has to compete with other Luxury brands.
If Acura is going the hybrid route with the next RL is it going to beat the hp and performance at least of the GS450h that had 340hp and 0-60 in 5.2 sec back in 2007. I admit I still think the GS450h is a bit pointless but they still had it out since 07 and it is not like Lexus or the competition is going to stay at 340hp or 0-60 in 5.2 sec either with the next generation that is already under development.
I hope Acura has realized that they really need to try and set the bar very high with the next RL and it needs to be a big deal for the company and a home run, they can't do that by just basing it on a Honda Accord again and throwing in a hybrid Honda v6. If they make the RL like the current one but just a little bigger with a "little" more power from some hybrid v6 stuffed in it then it will surely fail again and I don't want to see that. I do like the last RL before the beak/facelift and think it has one of the nicest interiors in its class and want to see the RL succeed and define the brands future.
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Nope, just didn't notice the day.
Funny you attempt to attack my substance by providing none of your own.
And I was incorrect, it is the 2GR instead of the 1GR, even though they are both very closely related.
Also, it is the 2GR-FSE, not 2GR-FSG. And your point is moot. The fact is that Lexus is 5 years down the road without so much as an update to the engine family, and their sales have relatively tanked as of late.
Merely pointing out facts, which according to you, features no "substance." Funny how those have no substance, but apparently your OPINIONS do.
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lexusgs
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owequitit wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
owequitit wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
80honda wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
Regardless of how well or how bad the car market is, manufacturers are still required to develop and produce competent offerings if they want to stay in business. That said, Acura has been tip toeing around way too long and its time to get down to business so their own business case can be justified. They cant afford to sit and do nothing.
~Patrick
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Required? Why should Honda be REQUIRED to build a car no one will buy?
Last time I looked, Honda is one of the few car companies NOT bleeding losses.
|
Honda is not bleeding losses because they cut out of F1, canceled the ASC sports car, cancelled v8 and rwd for the future, and have not been putting or developing any new technology in their vehicles, using the same old engines and transmissions. While making all those giant cuts just to make a small profit in a bad economy may seem pretty good to some they have ruined a prime opportunity to advance Acura and their new cars are turning off many customers, many feel their offerings are now inferior and outdated to the competition. Acura vehicles are selling with big discounts and lower prices then the competition. Honda is betting and hoping gas prices will skyrocket, the economy will suck forever, and more and more stronger CAFE regulations will stifle v8s, performance, and rwd which is why they have completely given up on those segments they never wanted to put any effort in.
All the other lux companies are going ahead with rwd, performance, innovation, new features, etc which many see as those companies having confidence and still trying even in a bad economy and that will effect sales and perception in the future.
It is pretty sad when a company just hunkers down and cancels all innovation and advancement just to hope for bad times so they don't have to put any effort into vehicles they never wanted to make(ASC, rwd, v8, coupes, v10, DSG, DI, etc) and can just base everything on Honda Accords and Honda powerplants. When the economy gets better and if gas prices don't skyrocket Acura especially is going to be in a horrible position again and it will take years and years if they decide to finally offer the vehicles customers are demanding which BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, and now Hyundai and even Kia are offering or going to be offering. They are going to be the laughing stock with their outdated Accord based lineup while other companies reap the rewards of putting the effort in.
Thing is Acura could make a lux sedan that gets better mileage with a v8 and rwd over another overweight slow v6 fwd Accord based RL that will need a heavy power/fuel economy sapping awd system to try to cope with torque steer and all the negative characteristics that go along with basing a flagship "luxury" sedan on a inexpensive fwd family sedan. The larger quicker rwd Lexus LS460 with a 380hp v8 gets better fuel economy then the smaller slower 290-300hp v6 awd RL. If Honda was so worried about fuel economy why do they still continue with the same formula that gets the worse fuel economy while the vehicle is still smaller and slower?
Acura will probably stuff a mild hybrid in the next RL that will make it even heavier, slower, and more expensive while not getting any better fuel economy or performing any better because it will still be based on a Honda Accord and need the awd system standard.
Is building just one rwd platform for a few Acura vehicles and having a v8 option really that difficult and unattainable for Honda/Acura? Why can all the other companies do it yet Honda can't or they seem to say it will cost them way too much? Honda just seems to be the big company that can't or simply stubbornly refuses for some reason.
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The real problem is that you don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.
You come on here with your sensational derogatory campaign and make all sorts of outlandish claims about stuff you are not important enough to know (like how Honda spends R&D dollars, and what they are or aren't developing), and then make assumptions based on outmoded product that is close to replacement as if to support that. People might actually take you seriously, if you worked in the realm of fact, but clearly that is still too much to ask.
What exactly has Lexus done to develop new product? The 1GR is getting pretty long in the tooth now (it is a whole 5 years old) and Lexus has done nothing to make major updates to it. They haven't advanced chassis tech, and they are still rehashing their old concept of HSD. Clearly, they should innovate, because at this point BMW, MB and Audi are offering far superior product, hence why their sales have suffered.
But hey, if speculation, lies, misjudements and sensationalism worked in the real world, you would surely qualify for a candy sucker and a baloon.
|
Wow, a little slow aren't you. My post you are replying to now is from October of last year. You really offer nothing of substance or any intelligence in your post for me to really reply to other then childish name calling so I will just comment on you commenting about Lexus. Just so you know I am no Lexus fanboy nor am I even a big fan who praises them all the time as you can see in my previous posts, don't assume just because Lexus is in my screen name that I quickly chose when signing up that I am some big Lexus fanatic because I am not and I absolutely can't stand Toyota's lineup since they dropped the Supra, MR2 turbo, and celica all trac.
Not sure why you brought up the 1GR as an insult to Lexus because they don't use that engine in any current Lexus model in the US, the 1 GR is mainly used in trucks. They have developed new engines like the 2GR-FE used in the current ES and RX and 2GR-FSG used in the IS and GS as well as other variations of the GR used in different models. The 2GR-FE is not all that special but the 2GR-FSG used in the IS350 and GS350 is pretty impressive. It is rated at 306hp from 3.5 liters but most insiders say it is under rated and really making closer to 315hp. The IS350 with a 2GR-FSG has done 0-60 in 4.8 seconds with a automatic and the larger heavier GS350awd automatic can get from 0-60 in 5.3 seconds while getting decent fuel economy. Lexus does not offer just v6s, they l offer v8s in many other models including a 400+ one in the IS-f and now they offer a 550hp v10 in the LFA. Where are Acura's v8s or v10's or at least one powerplant making over 305hp or at least one rwd car. Come on Acura.
As for Lexus developing new products, are you kidding me? They were the first with a 8 speed auto, have DI v6s and v8s, powerful hybrids, they just came out with the LFA with a 550hp v-10 and other firsts, etc. Again I am not blown away by Lexus or what they are currently offering but they are innovating and at least trying and have much more to offer then what Acura has to compete with other Luxury brands.
If Acura is going the hybrid route with the next RL is it going to beat the hp and performance at least of the GS450h that had 340hp and 0-60 in 5.2 sec back in 2007. I admit I still think the GS450h is a bit pointless but they still had it out since 07 and it is not like Lexus or the competition is going to stay at 340hp or 0-60 in 5.2 sec either with the next generation that is already under development.
I hope Acura has realized that they really need to try and set the bar very high with the next RL and it needs to be a big deal for the company and a home run, they can't do that by just basing it on a Honda Accord again and throwing in a hybrid Honda v6. If they make the RL like the current one but just a little bigger with a "little" more power from some hybrid v6 stuffed in it then it will surely fail again and I don't want to see that. I do like the last RL before the beak/facelift and think it has one of the nicest interiors in its class and want to see the RL succeed and define the brands future.
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Nope, just didn't notice the day.
Funny you attempt to attack my substance by providing none of your own.
And I was incorrect, it is the 2GR instead of the 1GR, even though they are both very closely related.
Also, it is the 2GR-FSE, not 2GR-FSG. And your point is moot. The fact is that Lexus is 5 years down the road without so much as an update to the engine family, and their sales have relatively tanked as of late.
Merely pointing out facts, which according to you, features no "substance." Funny how those have no substance, but apparently your OPINIONS do.
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Again I would rather focus mainly on Acura as I am not a big Lexus fan trying to defend them all the time but why exactly do you think Lexus needs to update the 2GR-FSE now when it is one of the best performing engines in its class. The only other engine that is equal or arguably superior to it is the turbo 6 in the 335i but that engine is also known to have reliability issues and is in cars with much better chasis/steering. The Nissan/Infiniti 3.7VQ makes 330-350hp but it is very rough and course at the high end, gets poor fuel economy plus is usually slower then the IS350. What else does Lexus need to do to the 2GR-FSE right now when it is one of best performing in class and gets decent fuel economy considering performance? Sure they can bump the power a little and try to make it a little smoother but it is still a very competent engine not in desperate need of updating so I don't see your point in Lexus not updating it.
Sales of many Lexus models are not very strong now but the ES and RX are selling well and the IS is still doing well. LS sales are decent considering it is an expensive flagship. Acura sales are in the tank more and their models are even newer and less expensive then the Lexus models aside from the RX. ZDX sales are very weak.
Again lets try to keep it mainly to the new RL which unless Acura changes its mind on doing away with FR and a optional v8 it will most likely be another v6 accord based failure. Putting a "green" hybrid v6 in it is not what the consumer wants in this class and is not going to suddenly making it a desirable car. A hybrid v6 will most likely make it less desirable then it already is in that market unless it is something truly amazing.
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80honda
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So LexusGS a.k.a. CJ, why did you create the JJacura account....why did you dig up this old thread?
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owequitit
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lexusgs wrote:
owequitit wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
owequitit wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
80honda wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
Regardless of how well or how bad the car market is, manufacturers are still required to develop and produce competent offerings if they want to stay in business. That said, Acura has been tip toeing around way too long and its time to get down to business so their own business case can be justified. They cant afford to sit and do nothing.
~Patrick
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Required? Why should Honda be REQUIRED to build a car no one will buy?
Last time I looked, Honda is one of the few car companies NOT bleeding losses.
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Honda is not bleeding losses because they cut out of F1, canceled the ASC sports car, cancelled v8 and rwd for the future, and have not been putting or developing any new technology in their vehicles, using the same old engines and transmissions. While making all those giant cuts just to make a small profit in a bad economy may seem pretty good to some they have ruined a prime opportunity to advance Acura and their new cars are turning off many customers, many feel their offerings are now inferior and outdated to the competition. Acura vehicles are selling with big discounts and lower prices then the competition. Honda is betting and hoping gas prices will skyrocket, the economy will suck forever, and more and more stronger CAFE regulations will stifle v8s, performance, and rwd which is why they have completely given up on those segments they never wanted to put any effort in.
All the other lux companies are going ahead with rwd, performance, innovation, new features, etc which many see as those companies having confidence and still trying even in a bad economy and that will effect sales and perception in the future.
It is pretty sad when a company just hunkers down and cancels all innovation and advancement just to hope for bad times so they don't have to put any effort into vehicles they never wanted to make(ASC, rwd, v8, coupes, v10, DSG, DI, etc) and can just base everything on Honda Accords and Honda powerplants. When the economy gets better and if gas prices don't skyrocket Acura especially is going to be in a horrible position again and it will take years and years if they decide to finally offer the vehicles customers are demanding which BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, and now Hyundai and even Kia are offering or going to be offering. They are going to be the laughing stock with their outdated Accord based lineup while other companies reap the rewards of putting the effort in.
Thing is Acura could make a lux sedan that gets better mileage with a v8 and rwd over another overweight slow v6 fwd Accord based RL that will need a heavy power/fuel economy sapping awd system to try to cope with torque steer and all the negative characteristics that go along with basing a flagship "luxury" sedan on a inexpensive fwd family sedan. The larger quicker rwd Lexus LS460 with a 380hp v8 gets better fuel economy then the smaller slower 290-300hp v6 awd RL. If Honda was so worried about fuel economy why do they still continue with the same formula that gets the worse fuel economy while the vehicle is still smaller and slower?
Acura will probably stuff a mild hybrid in the next RL that will make it even heavier, slower, and more expensive while not getting any better fuel economy or performing any better because it will still be based on a Honda Accord and need the awd system standard.
Is building just one rwd platform for a few Acura vehicles and having a v8 option really that difficult and unattainable for Honda/Acura? Why can all the other companies do it yet Honda can't or they seem to say it will cost them way too much? Honda just seems to be the big company that can't or simply stubbornly refuses for some reason.
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The real problem is that you don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.
You come on here with your sensational derogatory campaign and make all sorts of outlandish claims about stuff you are not important enough to know (like how Honda spends R&D dollars, and what they are or aren't developing), and then make assumptions based on outmoded product that is close to replacement as if to support that. People might actually take you seriously, if you worked in the realm of fact, but clearly that is still too much to ask.
What exactly has Lexus done to develop new product? The 1GR is getting pretty long in the tooth now (it is a whole 5 years old) and Lexus has done nothing to make major updates to it. They haven't advanced chassis tech, and they are still rehashing their old concept of HSD. Clearly, they should innovate, because at this point BMW, MB and Audi are offering far superior product, hence why their sales have suffered.
But hey, if speculation, lies, misjudements and sensationalism worked in the real world, you would surely qualify for a candy sucker and a baloon.
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Wow, a little slow aren't you. My post you are replying to now is from October of last year. You really offer nothing of substance or any intelligence in your post for me to really reply to other then childish name calling so I will just comment on you commenting about Lexus. Just so you know I am no Lexus fanboy nor am I even a big fan who praises them all the time as you can see in my previous posts, don't assume just because Lexus is in my screen name that I quickly chose when signing up that I am some big Lexus fanatic because I am not and I absolutely can't stand Toyota's lineup since they dropped the Supra, MR2 turbo, and celica all trac.
Not sure why you brought up the 1GR as an insult to Lexus because they don't use that engine in any current Lexus model in the US, the 1 GR is mainly used in trucks. They have developed new engines like the 2GR-FE used in the current ES and RX and 2GR-FSG used in the IS and GS as well as other variations of the GR used in different models. The 2GR-FE is not all that special but the 2GR-FSG used in the IS350 and GS350 is pretty impressive. It is rated at 306hp from 3.5 liters but most insiders say it is under rated and really making closer to 315hp. The IS350 with a 2GR-FSG has done 0-60 in 4.8 seconds with a automatic and the larger heavier GS350awd automatic can get from 0-60 in 5.3 seconds while getting decent fuel economy. Lexus does not offer just v6s, they l offer v8s in many other models including a 400+ one in the IS-f and now they offer a 550hp v10 in the LFA. Where are Acura's v8s or v10's or at least one powerplant making over 305hp or at least one rwd car. Come on Acura.
As for Lexus developing new products, are you kidding me? They were the first with a 8 speed auto, have DI v6s and v8s, powerful hybrids, they just came out with the LFA with a 550hp v-10 and other firsts, etc. Again I am not blown away by Lexus or what they are currently offering but they are innovating and at least trying and have much more to offer then what Acura has to compete with other Luxury brands.
If Acura is going the hybrid route with the next RL is it going to beat the hp and performance at least of the GS450h that had 340hp and 0-60 in 5.2 sec back in 2007. I admit I still think the GS450h is a bit pointless but they still had it out since 07 and it is not like Lexus or the competition is going to stay at 340hp or 0-60 in 5.2 sec either with the next generation that is already under development.
I hope Acura has realized that they really need to try and set the bar very high with the next RL and it needs to be a big deal for the company and a home run, they can't do that by just basing it on a Honda Accord again and throwing in a hybrid Honda v6. If they make the RL like the current one but just a little bigger with a "little" more power from some hybrid v6 stuffed in it then it will surely fail again and I don't want to see that. I do like the last RL before the beak/facelift and think it has one of the nicest interiors in its class and want to see the RL succeed and define the brands future.
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Nope, just didn't notice the day.
Funny you attempt to attack my substance by providing none of your own.
And I was incorrect, it is the 2GR instead of the 1GR, even though they are both very closely related.
Also, it is the 2GR-FSE, not 2GR-FSG. And your point is moot. The fact is that Lexus is 5 years down the road without so much as an update to the engine family, and their sales have relatively tanked as of late.
Merely pointing out facts, which according to you, features no "substance." Funny how those have no substance, but apparently your OPINIONS do.
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Again I would rather focus mainly on Acura as I am not a big Lexus fan trying to defend them all the time but why exactly do you think Lexus needs to update the 2GR-FSE now when it is one of the best performing engines in its class. The only other engine that is equal or arguably superior to it is the turbo 6 in the 335i but that engine is also known to have reliability issues and is in cars with much better chasis/steering. The Nissan/Infiniti 3.7VQ makes 330-350hp but it is very rough and course at the high end, gets poor fuel economy plus is usually slower then the IS350. What else does Lexus need to do to the 2GR-FSE right now when it is one of best performing in class and gets decent fuel economy considering performance? Sure they can bump the power a little and try to make it a little smoother but it is still a very competent engine not in desperate need of updating so I don't see your point in Lexus not updating it.
Sales of many Lexus models are not very strong now but the ES and RX are selling well and the IS is still doing well. LS sales are decent considering it is an expensive flagship. Acura sales are in the tank more and their models are even newer and less expensive then the Lexus models aside from the RX. ZDX sales are very weak.
Again lets try to keep it mainly to the new RL which unless Acura changes its mind on doing away with FR and a optional v8 it will most likely be another v6 accord based failure. Putting a "green" hybrid v6 in it is not what the consumer wants in this class and is not going to suddenly making it a desirable car. A hybrid v6 will most likely make it less desirable then it already is in that market unless it is something truly amazing.
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More diversion tactics.
1) If you are going to point out someone else's mistake, then you should be careful not to make one of your own.
I.E. correcting me on 1GR vs 2GR, and then making the mistake of calling it the FSG instead of the correct FSE...
2) The point is that you CEASELESSLY criticize EVERYTHING Acura does, even though you have ZERO credible information to support your assertions.
That, my friend, is the definition of no substance.
3) Update or stagnate. Lexus is merely 1 model cylce away from having an engine series that is as "outdated" as the J series (even though it is also still competitive, which is one of your other defamatory campaigns against Honda). It is BARELY cutting edge now. They need more tech. Everyone has DI, and most of the others are boosted. Many of the others in the segment are also under-rated, so claiming that Lexus is OK because they are under-rated is moot.
4)Their sales relative to where they were, represent a huge slide. Explain away that FACT. They used to lead every single segment they sold cars in. Now they are typically midpack or lower.
5) There are a lot of ways to execute a non-RWD RL without rehashing the Accord chassis. Of course, that is inspite of the fact that the current's RL's chassis is plenty competive from a weight, strength, refinement perspective, it is simply too small, and the engine doesn't provide the expected chutzpuh. However, I have yet to see ANYTHING that says it isn't high enough quality, stiff enough, capable enough, etc. That is you leveraging your bias again.
Size, power, styling. Nothing more.
Having said that, they can enlarge the Accord platform (the Accord is already larger), they can use the already developed RL chassis, and make it AWD only, or they can find some middle ground.
V8 is archaic in relation to the trend of boosted sixes and hybrids. The trend is already existing, if you don't see it, you are blind. Besides, Acura's SUCCESSFUL strategy has always focused on more with less. I.E. more likely to see a V6 than a V8. Just like the old days. Most of the V8's are in the 370-400HP range. An NA J37 is already at 300HP, with relatively little tech. If the new V6 features a bunch of tech, then 330-350 in NA form is probably not a stretch. Even if they boosted the tired, old J series, it would STILL put out power on par with any V8 in the class. Torque too. A V8 is really unneccesary, as you will find in the near future.
From a weight distribution standpoing, a longitudinal engine is preferrable, however, with the availability of AWD systems that can send the vast majority of power to the rear, it is far less critical for RWD to exist. Considering that technically, SH-AWD can send 100% of the total power rearward (currently limited to 70% by software), then it could easily be "RWD" capable, even with a transverse mounted, FWD based setup. Of course, then you get into the vagaries of hybrids and electric boost, to which the possibilites are endless.
Also, despite the longitudinal engines, and RWD, most of the cars in this segment have weight distribution closer to 55% front, because moving the engine forward provides extra room. In the case of Audi, it is higher than that. The fact is that even with a worse weight distribution closer to 60% front, a lighter total car, with a lighter total powertrain, could actually have equally high limits. The other major fact you are neglecting, is that the vast majority of cars in this segment are tuned very much for comfort, thus, the powertrain layout is probably NOT the limiting dynamic factor.
The fact is, and still remains, that you are simply railing Acura for things that have no factual bearing, no reality, and no substantiated proof, just because they didn't build the exact car you wanted, and probably wouldn't have purchased anyway.
6) Spin it however you want, but your name, constant supporting of Lexus vs Acura (or at least constantly using them as an example of what to be), and your apparent belief that you know more about Lexus than most others (as evidenced by your failed attempt to set me straight on engine terminology), all pretty clearly indicate your true agenda; regardless what you claim.
Actions speak louder than words...
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lexusgs
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owequitit wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
owequitit wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
owequitit wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
80honda wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
Regardless of how well or how bad the car market is, manufacturers are still required to develop and produce competent offerings if they want to stay in business. That said, Acura has been tip toeing around way too long and its time to get down to business so their own business case can be justified. They cant afford to sit and do nothing.
~Patrick
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Required? Why should Honda be REQUIRED to build a car no one will buy?
Last time I looked, Honda is one of the few car companies NOT bleeding losses.
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Honda is not bleeding losses because they cut out of F1, canceled the ASC sports car, cancelled v8 and rwd for the future, and have not been putting or developing any new technology in their vehicles, using the same old engines and transmissions. While making all those giant cuts just to make a small profit in a bad economy may seem pretty good to some they have ruined a prime opportunity to advance Acura and their new cars are turning off many customers, many feel their offerings are now inferior and outdated to the competition. Acura vehicles are selling with big discounts and lower prices then the competition. Honda is betting and hoping gas prices will skyrocket, the economy will suck forever, and more and more stronger CAFE regulations will stifle v8s, performance, and rwd which is why they have completely given up on those segments they never wanted to put any effort in.
All the other lux companies are going ahead with rwd, performance, innovation, new features, etc which many see as those companies having confidence and still trying even in a bad economy and that will effect sales and perception in the future.
It is pretty sad when a company just hunkers down and cancels all innovation and advancement just to hope for bad times so they don't have to put any effort into vehicles they never wanted to make(ASC, rwd, v8, coupes, v10, DSG, DI, etc) and can just base everything on Honda Accords and Honda powerplants. When the economy gets better and if gas prices don't skyrocket Acura especially is going to be in a horrible position again and it will take years and years if they decide to finally offer the vehicles customers are demanding which BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, and now Hyundai and even Kia are offering or going to be offering. They are going to be the laughing stock with their outdated Accord based lineup while other companies reap the rewards of putting the effort in.
Thing is Acura could make a lux sedan that gets better mileage with a v8 and rwd over another overweight slow v6 fwd Accord based RL that will need a heavy power/fuel economy sapping awd system to try to cope with torque steer and all the negative characteristics that go along with basing a flagship "luxury" sedan on a inexpensive fwd family sedan. The larger quicker rwd Lexus LS460 with a 380hp v8 gets better fuel economy then the smaller slower 290-300hp v6 awd RL. If Honda was so worried about fuel economy why do they still continue with the same formula that gets the worse fuel economy while the vehicle is still smaller and slower?
Acura will probably stuff a mild hybrid in the next RL that will make it even heavier, slower, and more expensive while not getting any better fuel economy or performing any better because it will still be based on a Honda Accord and need the awd system standard.
Is building just one rwd platform for a few Acura vehicles and having a v8 option really that difficult and unattainable for Honda/Acura? Why can all the other companies do it yet Honda can't or they seem to say it will cost them way too much? Honda just seems to be the big company that can't or simply stubbornly refuses for some reason.
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The real problem is that you don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.
You come on here with your sensational derogatory campaign and make all sorts of outlandish claims about stuff you are not important enough to know (like how Honda spends R&D dollars, and what they are or aren't developing), and then make assumptions based on outmoded product that is close to replacement as if to support that. People might actually take you seriously, if you worked in the realm of fact, but clearly that is still too much to ask.
What exactly has Lexus done to develop new product? The 1GR is getting pretty long in the tooth now (it is a whole 5 years old) and Lexus has done nothing to make major updates to it. They haven't advanced chassis tech, and they are still rehashing their old concept of HSD. Clearly, they should innovate, because at this point BMW, MB and Audi are offering far superior product, hence why their sales have suffered.
But hey, if speculation, lies, misjudements and sensationalism worked in the real world, you would surely qualify for a candy sucker and a baloon.
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Again I would rather focus mainly on Acura as I am not a big Lexus fan trying to defend them all the time but why exactly do you think Lexus needs to update the 2GR-FSE now when it is one of the best performing engines in its class. The only other engine that is equal or arguably superior to it is the turbo 6 in the 335i but that engine is also known to have reliability issues and is in cars with much better chasis/steering. The Nissan/Infiniti 3.7VQ makes 330-350hp but it is very rough and course at the high end, gets poor fuel economy plus is usually slower then the IS350. What else does Lexus need to do to the 2GR-FSE right now when it is one of best performing in class and gets decent fuel economy considering performance? Sure they can bump the power a little and try to make it a little smoother but it is still a very competent engine not in desperate need of updating so I don't see your point in Lexus not updating it.
Sales of many Lexus models are not very strong now but the ES and RX are selling well and the IS is still doing well. LS sales are decent considering it is an expensive flagship. Acura sales are in the tank more and their models are even newer and less expensive then the Lexus models aside from the RX. ZDX sales are very weak.
Again lets try to keep it mainly to the new RL which unless Acura changes its mind on doing away with FR and a optional v8 it will most likely be another v6 accord based failure. Putting a "green" hybrid v6 in it is not what the consumer wants in this class and is not going to suddenly making it a desirable car. A hybrid v6 will most likely make it less desirable then it already is in that market unless it is something truly amazing.
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More diversion tactics.
1) If you are going to point out someone else's mistake, then you should be careful not to make one of your own.
I.E. correcting me on 1GR vs 2GR, and then making the mistake of calling it the FSG instead of the correct FSE...
2) The point is that you CEASELESSLY criticize EVERYTHING Acura does, even though you have ZERO credible information to support your assertions.
That, my friend, is the definition of no substance.
3) Update or stagnate. Lexus is merely 1 model cylce away from having an engine series that is as "outdated" as the J series (even though it is also still competitive, which is one of your other defamatory campaigns against Honda). It is BARELY cutting edge now. They need more tech. Everyone has DI, and most of the others are boosted. Many of the others in the segment are also under-rated, so claiming that Lexus is OK because they are under-rated is moot.
4)Their sales relative to where they were, represent a huge slide. Explain away that FACT. They used to lead every single segment they sold cars in. Now they are typically midpack or lower.
5) There are a lot of ways to execute a non-RWD RL without rehashing the Accord chassis. Of course, that is inspite of the fact that the current's RL's chassis is plenty competive from a weight, strength, refinement perspective, it is simply too small, and the engine doesn't provide the expected chutzpuh. However, I have yet to see ANYTHING that says it isn't high enough quality, stiff enough, capable enough, etc. That is you leveraging your bias again.
Size, power, styling. Nothing more.
Having said that, they can enlarge the Accord platform (the Accord is already larger), they can use the already developed RL chassis, and make it AWD only, or they can find some middle ground.
V8 is archaic in relation to the trend of boosted sixes and hybrids. The trend is already existing, if you don't see it, you are blind. Besides, Acura's SUCCESSFUL strategy has always focused on more with less. I.E. more likely to see a V6 than a V8. Just like the old days. Most of the V8's are in the 370-400HP range. An NA J37 is already at 300HP, with relatively little tech. If the new V6 features a bunch of tech, then 330-350 in NA form is probably not a stretch. Even if they boosted the tired, old J series, it would STILL put out power on par with any V8 in the class. Torque too. A V8 is really unneccesary, as you will find in the near future.
From a weight distribution standpoing, a longitudinal engine is preferrable, however, with the availability of AWD systems that can send the vast majority of power to the rear, it is far less critical for RWD to exist. Considering that technically, SH-AWD can send 100% of the total power rearward (currently limited to 70% by software), then it could easily be "RWD" capable, even with a transverse mounted, FWD based setup. Of course, then you get into the vagaries of hybrids and electric boost, to which the possibilites are endless.
Also, despite the longitudinal engines, and RWD, most of the cars in this segment have weight distribution closer to 55% front, because moving the engine forward provides extra room. In the case of Audi, it is higher than that. The fact is that even with a worse weight distribution closer to 60% front, a lighter total car, with a lighter total powertrain, could actually have equally high limits. The other major fact you are neglecting, is that the vast majority of cars in this segment are tuned very much for comfort, thus, the powertrain layout is probably NOT the limiting dynamic factor.
The fact is, and still remains, that you are simply railing Acura for things that have no factual bearing, no reality, and no substantiated proof, just because they didn't build the exact car you wanted, and probably wouldn't have purchased anyway.
6) Spin it however you want, but your name, constant supporting of Lexus vs Acura (or at least constantly using them as an example of what to be), and your apparent belief that you know more about Lexus than most others (as evidenced by your failed attempt to set me straight on engine terminology), all pretty clearly indicate your true agenda; regardless what you claim.
Actions speak louder than words...
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There are no diversion tactics in my posts so I don't know why you are trying to say that and you may want to think about typing something like "Actions speak louder then words..." on a internet car forum when your debating with someone because the only thing we are doing is just typing WORDS on a keyboard.
1)Yes I typed FSG instead of FSE because I was thinking about the FSE in the GS350 and put G instead of E. I was not trying to make you look bad or act superior, I just knew the 1G was mainly a truck engine, the Lexus lineup uses the 2G and it was incorrect to say the 1G Lexus uses is outdated.
2)You don't need to have "critical information" or proof to have a opinion, criticize something you don't like like car styling so your point is completely baseless. Is there some kind of ruling authority figure that provides "critical proof or information" that a car is good/not looking and not very desirable? We mainly voice our OPINIONS and feelings on these threads and may provide some facts to try to back them up.
The fact is if you go on every other forum, even Acura forums most are not happy with Acura's current lineup(aside from maybe the MDX), decisions, and directions. You can't argue that. I could post a bunch of links but that is a waste of time. Try going on any car forum(BMW, Subaru, Corvette, even of TOV, etc) and starting a thread asking What do you think of Acuras current lineup, decisions, and direction and see the responses, I am certain most will be critical and mostly negative. The fact is most reviewers and lux buyers have criticized Acura for being too close to Honda and not offering unique rwd platforms, coupes, features, or v8 or v10 options.
3)Your criticizing the Lexus V6 as being almost outdated and obsolete when the FSE normally has the quickest 0-60 times in class, is praised for its responsiveness, and gets good fuel economy. The turbo BMW inline 6 is the only other 6 cylinder (which also is under rated) in its class that is with the FSE at the top of most categories/awards. You also say everyone has DI(which is wrong) and most have forced induction(also wrong) in their V6s as a knock against the 2GR yet the Acura J series has neither so I don't see your point in that either. Please tell me what other/new technologies the DOHC FI 2GR-FSE needs right now when it is pretty much tops or very high in its class in every category and how do you know more tech is not going into it soon? What engine is threatening it?
I am not saying the J series is a bad engine, it is a very good engine. Most agree it is the smoothest V6 in class, reliable, small, light, and can make decent power but for a engine company like Honda and the top of the line engine in Acura's lineup put in 50K vehicles it is lagging in many departments and they needed something newer a long time ago. A Honda v6 should not need 3.7 liters to make 300-305hp and it should be quickest, most responsive, and most fuel efficient in class which it isn't. I expect more from Honda
The J series is also handicapped by being paired mostly with the old 5 speed auto on most vehicles when the competition has more efficient 6-8 speeds. Why has the 6 speed auto taken so long to come out and be implemented as using the 5 speed has kept back fuel economy/acceleration of Acura models like the TL, RDX, and RL. If you want to see how inefficient performance wise the 5 speed is look at the acceleration numbers of the 5 speed auto TL-shawd(0-60 around 6 sec) vs 6 speed manual(0-60 around 5.2 sec)TL. That is a huge difference for a car with the same engine and similar weight. Most of the time the acceleration difference between modern 6 cylinder autos vs manuals is usually much less and in some cases the auto is just as quick.
4)As for Lexus sales being down you do know the economy and economic outlook is not good right now and there was a huge crash around 2 years ago which has heavily affected luxury car sales, there is your FACT. The Lexus GS is the main Lexus model that is not selling well because it is fairly old in need of a new model and the current generation never really stood out nor was it Lexus best effort. A new gen is on the horizon.
You need to do more research and check your FACTS because Lexus never led "every single segment" they sold cars in. The IS300 was a poor seller and never sold more then the 3 series, TL, or many other competitive cars. The SC430 never was a huge sales hit and it did not sell better then the Merc SL for most years. The GX and LX SUVs were not the top sellers every year in their segments either. The original first gen GS was a poor seller, overall the GS was never a huge seller and was usually beat by the 5 series and E class among others. The TL beat the ES and IS in sales for several years, I could go on and on.
5)V8s are not archiac even compared to V6 hybrids and FI and they have their advantages. Most V8s provide smooth instant power with a great sound and in lighter more efficient cars can be somewhat fuel efficient(Corvette, LS460) plus you don't have to worry about draining your battery in a short amount of time during high perf driving. What v6 hybrid is so superior to a modern v8? There is none. What FI v6 is so superior to a modern v8? I can't think of any except maybe the FI v6 that replaced the v8 in the Audi S4 as it gets significantly better fuel economy but that is about it. If v8s are archiac then why do other companies continue to offer them and continue to be successful with them. If you say v8s are archiac then V12, 4 cylinders, and flat and inline 6s must be archiac too because they have been around for a very long time, FI can be considered archiac because it has been used for a very long time. V6s are not that advanced and their main advantages are just that they are easier to package and cheaper to make then inline or flat 6s.
Acura could build a new fwd platform with a long. layout for the next RL but it seems so pointless because even fewer buyers know the difference between a long vs transv. layout compared to fwd vs rwd. Acura is still going to get criticized for using a fwd layout on their flagship when most of the competition uses the preferred rwd and why go through all the trouble of trying to make a fwd platform mimic a rwd platform when you can just use a rwd platform. By using a long. or transv. fwd platform they are still going to be forced to have SH-awd standard which is going to mean the RL is going to be heavier, more complex, and more expensive especially if it is getting some heavy hybrid powertrain. By going rwd SH-awd could just be an option for buyers who want it and they could end up having a rwd only version with a v8 option that is lighter, less complex, quicker, more fuel efficient, then even the current RL. That makes so much more sense than needing to have SH-awd standard which kills fuel economy and acceleration by adding weight, drag, complexity, etc.
Maybe Honda can boost the J series but they don't and it's doubtful they will in the future. From their talk a future V6 is going to focus mainly on cleaner green emissions and fuel economy and not power which is what people really want from Acura powerplants. If they are so concerned with fuel economy and emissions I doubt we will see much of a bump at all in hp from this new v6 which is troubling. I would not even be surprised with the new v6 if power mostly stays the same around 300-305 just from less displacement or they even sacrifice power for cleaner emissions, better fuel economy, lighter, and smaller as that fits more with this silly "smart luxury" slogan they are going with now. Hopefully I am wrong because emissions and fuel economy are not any where close to top priorities on performance/luxury buyers lists and mainly focusing on that is a recipe for failure.
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| lexusgs wrote:There are no diversion tactics in my posts so I don't know why you are trying to say that and you may want to think about typing something like "Actions speak louder then words..." on a internet car forum when your debating with someone because the only thing we are doing is just typing WORDS on a keyboard. |
Sure there are. Focusing on minute details instead of the matter at hand, diverting the questions, or rather deflecting them etc.
They are very much diversionary, whether you want them to be or not.
| 1)Yes I typed FSG instead of FSE because I was thinking about the FSE in the GS350 and put G instead of E. I was not trying to make you look bad or act superior, I just knew the 1G was mainly a truck engine, the Lexus lineup uses the 2G and it was incorrect to say the 1G Lexus uses is outdated. |
Your mistake is as honest as mine... Yet, you felt the need to point it out. I return the favor, by pointing out YOUR simple mistake, and now look at all of the backpedaling and explaining away you are trying to do here. Also, it is quite clear you are focusing on the designation yet again, versus the fact that the GR series is over 5 years old and hasn't had a major update. Personally, I don't think it is a big deal, but as you are so fond of criticizing in Acura, by your logic, it is overdue.
Also, 1GR, 2GR isn't a significant difference. They are all part of the same engine family, and have the same basic architecture. The Lexus products also use the 3GR and 4GR for the record...
| 2)You don't need to have "critical information" or proof to have a opinion, criticize something you don't like like car styling so your point is completely baseless. Is there some kind of ruling authority figure that provides "critical proof or information" that a car is good/not looking and not very desirable? We mainly voice our OPINIONS and feelings on these threads and may provide some facts to try to back them up. |
The problem is that you don't present it as an opinion. You present it as a tirade of hashed out FACTS, as though you are certain.
Opinions usually follow the lines of "I believe," "I think," "I suspect," "It could be possible," etc. Something along those lines.
On the other hand, your posts are "Acura is GOING to do XXX, and ruin XXX, and disappoint XXX." That is taking your opinion and trying to distort it more into fact. There are no and, ifs, or buts about it. You attempt to present opinion as fact. Much like most of the media. Perhaps that is why you can't tell the difference, I don't know. Don't really care either.
Like I have said many times on here recently. If you want to be unhappy with Acura, fine. I don't care, and I don't think anyone else does either. They will either provide what buyers want or they won't. They will NEVER provide everything everyone wants. Nobody can. If you want to buy something else, fine. I don't care. But you have ZERO clue what Acura is doing, planning, or executing, so to speak as though you do, is silly.
| The fact is if you go on every other forum, even Acura forums most are not happy with Acura's current lineup(aside from maybe the MDX), decisions, and directions. You can't argue that. I could post a bunch of links but that is a waste of time. Try going on any car forum(BMW, Subaru, Corvette, even of TOV, etc) and starting a thread asking What do you think of Acuras current lineup, decisions, and direction and see the responses, I am certain most will be critical and mostly negative. The fact is most reviewers and lux buyers have criticized Acura for being too close to Honda and not offering unique rwd platforms, coupes, features, or v8 or v10 options. |
The OTHER fact (which are so conveniently neglecting), is that 90% of Acura's current perception problem isn't a product problem at all. It is a styling issue. You can go back to Acura and non-Acura websites all over the place. People hated the new Acuras before they came out. Period. They didn't try them, they didn't buy them, in many cases they didn't even DRIVE them. They simply hated them because they were ugly. As such, they were UNWILLING to give the rest of the car a chance. Right or wrong, it says nothing about anything other than the styling primarily. I don't like it either, to be honest, but once I actually checked the car out, it offered a lot of improvements, in a lot of areas. It is more different than the Accord than the previous TL by far. The last gen TL even felt like an Accord with a fancy body.
You can criticize Acura's styling all you want, and I won't say a thing, as A) that is subjective, and B) I tend to agree. However, to condemn the entire operation as a complete turd is just sensationalist, high school drama B.S.
| 3)Your criticizing the Lexus V6 as being almost outdated and obsolete when the FSE normally has the quickest 0-60 times in class, is praised for its responsiveness, and gets good fuel economy. The turbo BMW inline 6 is the only other 6 cylinder (which also is under rated) in its class that is with the FSE at the top of most categories/awards. You also say everyone has DI(which is wrong) and most have forced induction(also wrong) in their V6s as a knock against the 2GR yet the Acura J series has neither so I don't see your point in that either. Please tell me what other/new technologies the DOHC FI 2GR-FSE needs right now when it is pretty much tops or very high in its class in every category and how do you know more tech is not going into it soon? What engine is threatening it? |
Is the BMW engine not DI as well as boosted?
How about the Audi engines? They are DI or boosted, or both, with more coming.
Cadillac is DI at least. As does Buick, Lincoln (boost as well), FFord, and pretty much any other car in that price range, that could even remotely be considered for the same mission.
That leaves Acura with the J series, which is due for replacement very soon, Infiniti with the VQ and Lexus with the 2GR. I would hardly say that most everyone doesn't have those technologies, considering it is evenly split in boost, decidedly not evenly split in DI, and most companies have announced more DI, or boost, or both.
Also, the 2GR that you continually refer to (in the IS) is in the smallest, and among the lightest cars in class, so obviously it is pretty quick and offers decent MPG. Of course, the fat pig of a TL sure isn't far behind for a similar price, with AWD, in a much larger package when also hitched to a 6 speed. Isn't that odd? The super under-rated IS350 engine isn't really faster than an equally rated car that weighs 300-400lbs more, is much larger, has AWD drivetrain loss, and equal numbers of gears? Oh yeah, it returns similar economy, and it does it without DOHC, without cam phasing, without DI, etc. etc. etc. Unless of course the J37 is also under-rated. But I am sure you will just dismiss that possibility by not mentioning it eh?
I am not saying the J series is a bad engine, it is a very good engine. Most agree it is the smoothest V6 in class, reliable, small, light, and can make decent power but for a engine company like Honda and the top of the line engine in Acura's lineup put in 50K vehicles it is lagging in many departments and they needed something newer a long time ago. A Honda v6 should not need 3.7 liters to make 300-305hp and it should be quickest, most responsive, and most fuel efficient in class which it isn't. I expect more from Honda
The J series is also handicapped by being paired mostly with the old 5 speed auto on most vehicles when the competition has more efficient 6-8 speeds. Why has the 6 speed auto taken so long to come out and be implemented as using the 5 speed has kept back fuel economy/acceleration of Acura models like the TL, RDX, and RL. If you want to see how inefficient performance wise the 5 speed is look at the acceleration numbers of the 5 speed auto TL-shawd(0-60 around 6 sec) vs 6 speed manual(0-60 around 5.2 sec)TL. That is a huge difference for a car with the same engine and similar weight. Most of the time the acceleration difference between modern 6 cylinder autos vs manuals is usually much less and in some cases the auto is just as quick. |
The J series runs on a planned obsolescence schedule just like everyone else, including Toyota. Guess what? The 2GR is going to be long in the tooth when it is finally replaced in another 10 years or so. The VQ was long in the tooth a decade ago. BMW has run their I6 engines for notoriously long periods of time between replacements, and most of Audi's engines have direct roots to engines from the 90's. One of the reasons I am such a dick is because I use your flawed logic against you, and you just can't out argue yourself...
If everyone else gets maximum value from their engines, then why should Honda be any different? You talk about updates. Has the J series not been updated? I am pretty sure it has. If you would like me to break down the HUGE list of updates it has received over time, just let me know, I would be happy to itemize them for you. In fact, other than the VQ, it is by far the most updated engine series in the segment. It has had changes from top to bottom. Several times.
Further, the J series is competitive in ratings with any V6 in the class, with the exception of the VQ in the G37, which is rated higher, at least on paper. Apparently, it isn't much stronger than the old VQ35HR, but whatever.
Anyway, it isn't the J series that has a problem. 305HP rated HP is about on par with others in the segment, and certainly, for an NA engine, the displacement is not out of line. However, what leaves Acura LOOKING like they have their pants down, is that there isn't a 350-450HP engine on top to make people like you think they are competitive. Never mind that even in the case of BMW and MB, only about 10% of all the buyers opt for those optional engines anyway... All you see is "no optional V8 = Acura sucks." When really, Acura is still catering to 90% of the market. Had they not fucked up the styling, I am pretty sure that would still be the case today. Other than the TL, which actually isn't doing that awfully considering the styling, most of their products are actually doing well to quite well, considering their total segment sales.
As for the transmission, I mostly agree, however, you are incorrect on several fronts. Also, if you want to be biased against Honda's tranny choices, fine, but remember the tranny is NOT the engine. You have a severe tendency to blur the lines.
1) More gears doesn't necessarily mean more efficient. In fact, with more moving and meshing parts, it could be quite the opposite. You are confusing efficiency with fuel economy. But here is the rub:
A) in many cases those transmissions' don't contribute to the FE the way they should, in the real world, because they are programmed to go for top gear ASAP in an effort to save fuel. However, in the real world, in many cases, if you need any kind of acceleration, the transmission has to kick down one or several gears to produce meaningful acceleration. Kickdowns are not only less efficient than steady state cruising, but they are annoying as crap. If you have an 8 speed tranny that is sitting there hunting and picking and upshifting and hunting, it is not a pleasureable driving experience. Period. It is no better from a driver's standpoint than a 5AT that has holes in the gearing. GM is a super prime example of this. There stuff does great for MPG. On an EPA bench. In the real world, not only do they hunt all over the place, never able to find the right gear, but they deliver HUGELY less than advertised MPG, in some cases by nearly 30-50%.
B)Also, I hate to be a realist, but ultimately, more gears, more clutchpacks and all the other associated hardware = more stuff to break someday. Since I own cars in the real world, and not on a forum, things like cost of tranny repair interest me greatly, especially considering that the modern transmission is by far the most complex and expensive part of a car.
Fear not though, it isn't a bias, because our 2002 Accord V6 used to keep me up at night just waiting for the day that tranny was going to grenade on me. In over 70K miles, it never hiccupped, but I was much at ease when we finally got rid of it.
2)You seem to be confusing VCM engines with non-VCM engines.
I have yet to meet a non-VCM Honda that didn't deliver AT LEAST its rated MPG in my hands. It would seem others are seeing this too, as even the TL-SHAWD seems to deliver rated mileage in the hands of lead foot journalists. The only significant departure I have seen from rated MPG is in R&T's multi-car test of the TL-SHAWD 6MT, S4,335i and G37 6MT. It was still best in test next to the 335i, and CLOBBERED the G37.
You can argue that a 5AT compromises MPG, but that depends on how they gear it. The 6AT in the ZDX didn't seem to give it a huge MPG advantage over the MDX, or acceleration. If they gear the tranny tightly and aggressively to maximize acceleration, then there will be less of an MPG gain. If they gear it for MPG and not for acceleration, then you end up with a GM scenario.
You then point out the TL SH-AWD versus regular TL as an example. There is probably some merit, but then there are a few rubs you haven't addressed either:
1) The 6MT car is almost 150lbs lighter than the AT. That is worth nearly .2 of the discrepancy, all by itself. Then, there is the fact that the 6MT is geared fairly aggressively for performance, as evidenced by the fact that even with its lighter weight, extra gear, and more efficient transmission, it doesn't get higher MPG.
2) It seems that most magazines have admitted to power braking the car for launch. It has also been talked about on here how the SH-AWD shifts to 2nd nearly immediately after launch due to tranny programming if you power brake it. It is also odd that while I don't think Jeff disputes that the 6MT is noticeably faster, he was pretty able to consistently wring out better times, and IIRC, his best times came from just flooring it. He was down in the mid 14 second range. Still a ways behind what he thought he could get out of the 6MT.
3) You have not addressed the adverse affect of shift time in an MT on acceleration. If a car shifts twice before 60, it will pencil out a few 10ths slower than one that only shifts once. The point is that there is a whole lot more at play with quoting a 5.2second MT time and then directly comparing it to a 6.0 AT time. What about weather, temp, humidity etc? They certainly weren't on the track at the same time, so there are now a slew of variables that must at least be considered.
| 4)As for Lexus sales being down you do know the economy and economic outlook is not good right now and there was a huge crash around 2 years ago which has heavily affected luxury car sales, there is your FACT. The Lexus GS is the main Lexus model that is not selling well because it is fairly old in need of a new model and the current generation never really stood out nor was it Lexus best effort. A new gen is on the horizon. |
And thank you for springing my trap.
So when Lexus' sales tank, it is because of a bad economy, a market crash and crappy luxury car sales?
When Acura's sales tank, it is because they suck, don't offer any good product, have no power, no direction, and can't compete with gussied up Accords, as you have so adamantly insisted these last two years?
Thanks for finally clearing that up. ;) I am glad we have clarified that Acura was immune to the same forces that caused Lexus to tank...
Of course, that is also in denial of the fact that 3 series sales haven't suffered much, and Audi's sales have actually been on a pretty strongly increasing trend, as have MB's, and Cadillac's. At the very least, they haven't tanked as much as Lexus or Acura, which I am willing to admit, but apparently you aren't.
| You need to do more research and check your FACTS because Lexus never led "every single segment" they sold cars in. The IS300 was a poor seller and never sold more then the 3 series, TL, or many other competitive cars. The SC430 never was a huge sales hit and it did not sell better then the Merc SL for most years. The GX and LX SUVs were not the top sellers every year in their segments either. The original first gen GS was a poor seller, overall the GS was never a huge seller and was usually beat by the 5 series and E class among others. The TL beat the ES and IS in sales for several years, I could go on and on. |
These are the diversionary tactics I refer to. In communication, there is always the spoken (typed) message, and then, usually, the underlying message. The underlying message was that typically, Lexus has been at or near the top of the charts. You can point out the niche segment vehicles, or the first IS, which was fairly poor overall, but by and large, they dominated the marketplace. The LS quickly dominated the large luxury segment, the GS came to the top by the second generation, the current IS started at or near the top, the ES has always been a VERY strong seller, etc. etc. etc. The FACT is that in terms of perception of market dominance, product superiority, etc they have suffered hugely. Deny it all you want, it isn't all that far from what has happened to Acura.
The reason? Lexus was never outright sporty when they were successful. They were very clearly defined, and they were deadly effective at their mission, but they weren't sports sedans. As they chase BMW, they are suffering. Why? BMW is BMW. If I want a BMW, I will just go buy one. They are now alienating a large portion of the customer base that made them so successful, just by not doing what they do best.
| 5)V8s are not archiac even compared to V6 hybrids and FI and they have their advantages. Most V8s provide smooth instant power with a great sound and in lighter more efficient cars can be somewhat fuel efficient(Corvette, LS460) plus you don't have to worry about draining your battery in a short amount of time during high perf driving. What v6 hybrid is so superior to a modern v8? There is none. What FI v6 is so superior to a modern v8? I can't think of any except maybe the FI v6 that replaced the v8 in the Audi S4 as it gets significantly better fuel economy but that is about it. If v8s are archiac then why do other companies continue to offer them and continue to be successful with them. If you say v8s are archiac then V12, 4 cylinders, and flat and inline 6s must be archiac too because they have been around for a very long time, FI can be considered archiac because it has been used for a very long time. V6s are not that advanced and their main advantages are just that they are easier to package and cheaper to make then inline or flat 6s. |
More dodging the implied message. I love how you guys pick and choose between literal and implied interpretation whenever it suits you best.
The V8 is archaic because in the new CAFE world, the law says it is archaic. I am not willing to rule it out just yet, but like I said before, if you can't see the writing on the wall, you are putting your blinders on. Many are being replaced by smaller lighter V6's with boost. Many are being downsized (even GM, king of big balls engines, is talking about downsizing the next Vette engine). Still others are in flux. Of course, that is considering that in the current market (pre bust) only 10% or less of total car production had them anyway.
The FACT is that in order to get the EPA numbers to work out, you are going to see smaller, higher output density engines in cars, hybrids, etc.
Funny you should point to the Corvette, because it gets good MPG, but only if you stay in 6th gear, and only if you never goose it. As soon as you start getting on that thing, MPG drops through the floor. Of course the fact that they are talking about downsizing it, as well as adding a bunch of other technology, again highlights the realities of our future.
You seem to be neglecting that every V8 product currently on the market was designed at least 4-5 years ago, and that the ones debuting now are also pre-appocalypse. You won't see the fruits of the downturn and CAFE for about another 2-4 years. But don't you worry, just sit back and watch. I don't think the V8 will be extinct, but it will certainly be here in a different light.
I am not sure what you are talking about with the LS460:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/07q1/2006_jaguar_super_v-8_vs._2007_m-b_s550_2006_audi_a8l_2007_lexus_ls460l_2006_bmw_750li-comparison_tests
13MPG...
MT's long term combined number was 19MPG. Not horrible, but not earth shattering for a mid 14 second car either.
As for boosted engines, it would seem that some of the newer supercharged engines coming out don't have any instantaneous response issues, which is one of the known advantages of a positive displacement blower similar to those currently fitted on Audi's and Corvettes. They are slightly less efficient than turbos, but man if they don't deliver NA response.
As for the S4 engine, it has slightly less power (on paper anyway, as it is also under-rated), more torque over a broader range, better MPG, smaller size, and better MPG. It is also more readily able to exploit the advantages of DI, since it is boosted). While I have not traditionally been a fan of boosted engines, I have to admit that the S4 is a stunning package, and it is largely due to the engine. Also, I forgot to mention that it is in fact faster, despite being heavier than its predecessor. So, other than slightly more complexity, what is the real disadvantage?
As for Hybrids? I tend to agree that it is a less than ideal solution, but really, it is going to become much more common. The weight problem is being worked on (largely in better, lighter batteries and other weight mitigation techniques), and the reality is that even modern hybrids don't deplete their packs often, if at all, so the odds of a larger car depleting them are also questionable. If the Insight doesn't deplete them with its small pack, I am sure a larger pack will be up to the challenge. You also figure that about the only scenario where a hybrid would deplete its pack is on a long uphill stretch at speeds requiring assist. However, as the next RL would most likely offer a power upgrade over the current, and the fact that the current can climb hills at 85-90MPH just fine, I don't see that being much of an issue either. It is much more common in cars like the Insight that have low power and small packs, although a lot of people don't deplete them there either. On a winding mountain road, there are probably enough regen zones that it would have to be a really long road to deplete a pack completely.
Plus, you have the added advantage of being able to move the car under electrical power only, which is much more beneficial than more gears. Plus, don't also rule out that with a setup with engine in front and electric assist in rear, you are completely independent from having to rely on engine power, and gear reduction/multiplication mechanism to provide handling assistance. Simply send more juice to the desired corner and voila, yaw.
I am not totally sold on hybrids either, but I see some definite sporting potential. You can argue the weight, but then again, you can argue the weight of a V8, the weight of AWD, the weight of a stiffer chassis, larger wheels, etc. Not to mention all the other sybaritic crap people have come to expect in their cars.
The other potential positive I see to hybrids in Acura's case, is that it could very well fill in the part of the powerband where they have been weak. The bottom. They are quite complementary to a high strung powerband, and even the RL doesn't get much criticism for its top end power.
| Acura could build a new fwd platform with a long. layout for the next RL but it seems so pointless because even fewer buyers know the difference between a long vs transv. layout compared to fwd vs rwd. Acura is still going to get criticized for using a fwd layout on their flagship when most of the competition uses the preferred rwd and why go through all the trouble of trying to make a fwd platform mimic a rwd platform when you can just use a rwd platform. By using a long. or transv. fwd platform they are still going to be forced to have SH-awd standard which is going to mean the RL is going to be heavier, more complex, and more expensive especially if it is getting some heavy hybrid powertrain. By going rwd SH-awd could just be an option for buyers who want it and they could end up having a rwd only version with a v8 option that is lighter, less complex, quicker, more fuel efficient, then even the current RL. That makes so much more sense than needing to have SH-awd standard which kills fuel economy and acceleration by adding weight, drag, complexity, etc. |
Some valid points, but the reality is that MOST people don't even know which wheels drive the car (it has been shown in studies), and more importantly, as long as the product delivers what they expect, they don't care.
Also, a long layout WOULD help because while people don't know the difference between long and short engine layout, they do know the difference in proportion. Take the new S4 versus old. It looks 10 time better simply because the wheels aren't stuffed into the firewall, with 4 feet of car hanging in front of them. To be honest, the weight distribution changed, but not by as much as the proportions did. 2nd case in point. 2nd Gen Legend and Vigor versus every subsequent Acura built. The Legend actually had an equal weight distribution to the current and last gen TL, and pretty much every J series equipped, or transverse FWD car with the engine in front of the axle, but man was it a looker. I think you would agree that looks sell, no? There would also be some dynamic advantage to be sure.
Also, the drag on SH-AWD doesn't seem to be as much as you are making out to be. The weight is there, yes, and I won't deny that, but the TL SH-AWD largely delivers equal or better real world economy than most of the cars in its class. That probably has to do with the fact that it can put 100% of its power to the front wheels, which would reduce power loss, and it can probably decouple the rear clutches, which would also reduce power loss. There is certainly some penalty, but really, other than weight, it isn't bad. Even the weight is pretty good as far as AWD systems go. Also, I think Acura could reduce the weight further if the new TL hadn't gotten so much larger outside. 3800lbs isn't out of the question, that is where the 6MT is roughly. Of course, then there is always smaller size, aluminum, plastic, and other composits. Rumor (according to one of the mags) is that they are currently working on a composite engine block. Don't know how true that is though. RWD is only hugely advantageous if you plan on wringing the car out a bit. Yes, you can feel it a bit on turn in and such, but frankly, most people in this segment WANT a solid and heavy feeling car. Also, the RL has room to move up if it gets larger because most of the A segment cars are 4500-5000lbs, while the RL is only 4000 currently.
Truth be told, a high winding V6 powered RL with SH-AWD, decent styling proportions, more room, and styling similar to the artist rendering from a few years back would appeal to me greatly.
| Maybe Honda can boost the J series but they don't and it's doubtful they will in the future. From their talk a future V6 is going to focus mainly on cleaner green emissions and fuel economy and not power which is what people really want from Acura powerplants. If they are so concerned with fuel economy and emissions I doubt we will see much of a bump at all in hp from this new v6 which is troubling. I would not even be surprised with the new v6 if power mostly stays the same around 300-305 just from less displacement or they even sacrifice power for cleaner emissions, better fuel economy, lighter, and smaller as that fits more with this silly "smart luxury" slogan they are going with now. Hopefully I am wrong because emissions and fuel economy are not any where close to top priorities on performance/luxury buyers lists and mainly focusing on that is a recipe for failure. |
This is not looking at the future though. Green has moved quite rapidly up the list of priorities, even in the "luxury segment." Downsizing is the new upsizing. Inconspicuous luxury is catching on again. These cycles aren't hard to predict, they repeat themselves over and over. In loose times, people want to stand out and flaunt their wealth. They want status, excess and ostentatious. When everything tanks, it becomes much more common for them to still want to enjoy their luxury, but in a smaller and more sensible package. BMW and MB have been quoted about how much the shift in desire has hurt their higher end products. But, that is also a large part of why 3 series segment cars are still doing pretty well. They still allow the brand enjoyment, the luxury, the features, but in a much more price concious environment. In the future you will see more of the same. Plus, like guys like honda_avfm have said, his customers are increasingly interested in connectivity versus HP, or dynamic prowess.
Honda could boost the J series. But they aren't going to, nor have they had to in order to have a competitive engine, even at 12 years old. They are going to replace it. I haven't seen anything on its replacement other than it has been confirmed, so I am curious as to where you are getting your supposed information. I would like to see a link please.
Also, keep in mind that
A) More efficiency = more power AND lower emmissions
B) Honda has taken an engine that doesn't have DI, doesn't have adjustable cams, doesn't have boost, doesn't have VTEC on both sides (most versions), doesn't have super high compression, doesn't have super high flowing ports, has a relatively long stroke in larger versions, and was designed primarily for packaging efficiency, and they have increased its power output by 50% in some cases. The J35 went from 210 up to 300HP and from 230 to over 250 ft-lbs, all while probably increasing emmissions performance by several orders of magnitude (in addition to keeping up with increasing standards, I believe they all went to ULEV status). The J30 gained 20% doing the same thing, the J32 gained the same as the J30, and the J37 started at 300.
It is ludicrous to assume that if Honda builds a new V6 with some of the efficiency technology we know they have, with new technology they may not have revealed, with more precise engine control, lower pumping losses, and things like VCT if they choose, that it won't make more power AND get better MPG/emmissions performance. Especially if they don't make packaging such a huge priority, which gives them more room for good stuff, like large ports, DOHC, etc.
You act like they have never been able to improve power and emmissions... They are STILL doing it.
So instead of the incessant sensationalist drivel, why don't we just wait and see what happens?
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sadlerau
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You guys have way too much time on your hands :)
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SubparChevy
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I can't say I could be bothered to read this whole thread. I decided I would rather take the new 2010 TL 6SPD out for a spin. I accelerated through a right turn with such grip and speed that I started giggling like a school girl.
I have to say it is an amazing car and superior in every way to the 2004 TL 6SPD it replaced. Argue the looks if you want, but I am fine with it.
There is just no comparison.
Now what were you guys saying about GRE23 vs GTE22 engines again?
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superchg
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Whoever regurgitated this thread from October 2009 (JJAcura) should be slapped silly, because all it has done is create one giant pissing match!!
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chinofer
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Ha ha. I bookmarked this page for my lunch break reading tomorrow.
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owequitit
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superchg wrote:
Whoever regurgitated this thread from October 2009 (JJAcura) should be slapped silly, because all it has done is create one giant pissing match!!
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Actually, it has turned to more of a discussion.
But you mean a pissing match like the one you are currently attempting to participate in? Maybe you should go slap yourself silly...
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Honda F1 Racing
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sadlerau wrote:
You guys have way too much time on your hands :)
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+1
Seriously, what is this? An essay writing contest? lol...
Can't even bother to read all the rambling going on.
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siegen
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Holy cow, I don't think I've ever seen a post that long on here. Yikes.
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lexusgs
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siegen wrote:
Holy cow, I don't think I've ever seen a post that long on here. Yikes.
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Yeah I agree and I am not going to try to reply to and address that extremely long post, mine was a bit too long also but that one takes the cake. Some valid points were made on both sides so lets just agree to disagree about the whole future RL and how we feel about Acura's current strategy/decisions.
I agree Acura makes very competent cars but I just expect more from them and feel right now they are making some bad decisions and slacking in many areas they shouldn't. They need to really work on the styling that is turning many buyers off and hopefully they realize that and are quickly working on a solution to fix it.
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sivikvtec
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I think you guys have it all wrong.
We have seen something just like this play out before:
Infiniti launches second generation M series in the US, slightly more upscale and outperforms the slow selling "flagship" Q45.
A few years after the launch of the M series, the Q45 quietly dissapears from the US....
Think of TL vs RL.
2010 RL's are built out already. Party's over. Get used to the TL as the sedan flagship for Acura.
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Blue_Sky_surfer
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lexusgs wrote:
siegen wrote:
Holy cow, I don't think I've ever seen a post that long on here. Yikes.
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Yeah I agree and I am not going to try to reply to and address that extremely long post, mine was a bit too long also but that one takes the cake. Some valid points were made on both sides so lets just agree to disagree about the whole future RL and how we feel about Acura's current strategy/decisions.
I agree Acura makes very competent cars but I just expect more from them and feel right now they are making some bad decisions and slacking in many areas they shouldn't. They need to really work on the styling that is turning many buyers off and hopefully they realize that and are quickly working on a solution to fix it.
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Would it really surprise anyone that Lexus offers RX, GS, and LS only in hybrid form? The bigger trend is going towards hybrid, and engine downsizing.
Gasoline V8? Nope. Gasoline V6? Nope.
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lexusgs
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sivikvtec wrote:
I think you guys have it all wrong.
We have seen something just like this play out before:
Infiniti launches second generation M series in the US, slightly more upscale and outperforms the slow selling "flagship" Q45.
A few years after the launch of the M series, the Q45 quietly dissapears from the US....
Think of TL vs RL.
2010 RL's are built out already. Party's over. Get used to the TL as the sedan flagship for Acura.
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Acura is not Infiniti. Infiniti until recently has been mostly unsuccessful and struggled with products and some kind of fanbase where Acura has been much more successful since inception and does not need to drop flagships like Infiniti did. Acura is not going to follow Infiniti's footsteps.
The TL could not be Acura's flagship sedan as it is more of a entry level bread and butter lux car despite it increasing so much in size. The TL mostly gets compared and cross shoped to the Lexus ES, IS, G37, 3 series, etc which are no where close to flagships, adding AWD and a small bump in hp to the same exact car does not suddenly make it jump a class or two to flagship status. You can't be a luxury or upmarket company with a car that used to be a bread and butter entry level vehicle also be your flagship. Acura needs a sedan that is higher up and more expensive then the TL as something to define the brand and aspire to.
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superchg
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owequitit wrote:
superchg wrote:
Whoever regurgitated this thread from October 2009 (JJAcura) should be slapped silly, because all it has done is create one giant pissing match!!
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Actually, it has turned to more of a discussion.
But you mean a pissing match like the one you are currently attempting to participate in? Maybe you should go slap yourself silly...
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Owe, you are quite a verbose little twit!!!
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owequitit
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lexusgs wrote:
siegen wrote:
Holy cow, I don't think I've ever seen a post that long on here. Yikes.
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Yeah I agree and I am not going to try to reply to and address that extremely long post, mine was a bit too long also but that one takes the cake. Some valid points were made on both sides so lets just agree to disagree about the whole future RL and how we feel about Acura's current strategy/decisions.
I agree Acura makes very competent cars but I just expect more from them and feel right now they are making some bad decisions and slacking in many areas they shouldn't. They need to really work on the styling that is turning many buyers off and hopefully they realize that and are quickly working on a solution to fix it.
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It wasn't any longer than yours. And sorry, slow at work, and got bored...
But you wouldn't be backing away from reason would you?
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owequitit
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superchg wrote:
owequitit wrote:
superchg wrote:
Whoever regurgitated this thread from October 2009 (JJAcura) should be slapped silly, because all it has done is create one giant pissing match!!
|
Actually, it has turned to more of a discussion.
But you mean a pissing match like the one you are currently attempting to participate in? Maybe you should go slap yourself silly...
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Owe, you are quite a verbose little twit!!!
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Ah gee look. He can insult me like a 9th grader.
Bring something to the table, or the only thing you are accomplishing is to make yourself look like a twit.
You are afterall, more than welcome to see your way out of the thread...but my guess is that you really can't add or argue anything, so you are going to devolve into high school debate level, which is about the point I know the conversation is finished.
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owequitit
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Blue_Sky_surfer wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
siegen wrote:
Holy cow, I don't think I've ever seen a post that long on here. Yikes.
|
Yeah I agree and I am not going to try to reply to and address that extremely long post, mine was a bit too long also but that one takes the cake. Some valid points were made on both sides so lets just agree to disagree about the whole future RL and how we feel about Acura's current strategy/decisions.
I agree Acura makes very competent cars but I just expect more from them and feel right now they are making some bad decisions and slacking in many areas they shouldn't. They need to really work on the styling that is turning many buyers off and hopefully they realize that and are quickly working on a solution to fix it.
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Would it really surprise anyone that Lexus offers RX, GS, and LS only in hybrid form? The bigger trend is going towards hybrid, and engine downsizing.
Gasoline V8? Nope. Gasoline V6? Nope.
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Many people can't see trends until they have already happened.
However, I am not willing to condemn larger engines completely, but I think it is pretty clear when companies like MB are talking about 4 bangers and V6's in their flagship, that they will be getting farther and fewer between.
Some companies, like Audi, have selectively chosen to replace V8s, but the trend is pretty clear, the future announcements are pretty clear, and CAFE is pretty clear.
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superchg
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owequitit wrote:
You are afterall, more than welcome to see your way out of the thread...but my guess is that you really can't add or argue anything, so you are going to devolve into high school debate level, which is about the point I know the conversation is finished.
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Owe, you have once again proved you are a little twit. For example, any high school kid would know that de-evolve might be used in your sentence. A moron such as yourself, however, would use the word devolve incorrectly. So Owe, forget about debating at any level!!!
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owequitit
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superchg wrote:
owequitit wrote:
You are afterall, more than welcome to see your way out of the thread...but my guess is that you really can't add or argue anything, so you are going to devolve into high school debate level, which is about the point I know the conversation is finished.
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Owe, you have once again proved you are a little twit. For example, any high school kid would know that de-evolve might be used in your sentence. A moron such as yourself, however, would use the word devolve incorrectly. So Owe, forget about debating at any level!!!
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Devolve: obsolete. To cause to roll downward...
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/devolve
You were saying? Looks like it fits the bill pretty close for what I intended. Better yet, which word would you have selected? Let's play synonym, shall we?
So now, are you going to continue trying to make personal attacks, or are you going to try to add some substance to a thread?
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superchg
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owequitit wrote:
So now, are you going to continue trying to make personal attacks, or are you going to try to add some substance to a thread?
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Owe, I found a couple of your recent comments, or are they personal attacks??? Hmmm...
"The real problem is that you don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about."
"But hey, if speculation, lies, misjudements and sensationalism worked in the real world, you would surely qualify for a candy sucker and a baloon."
"The point is that you CEASELESSLY criticize EVERYTHING Acura does, even though you have ZERO credible information to support your assertions."
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