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TSX69
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Honda Developing New Hybrid System for Large Cars like Odyssey & Pilot
Honda is making strides towards developing hybrid systems for use in larger cars, according to the company’s head of automobile research and development. “We’ve left the research stage and entered the field of development,” Tomohiko Kawanabe, chief operating officer of automobile r&d at Japan’s No.2 automaker.
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Blue_Sky_surfer
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Does that mean to wait three years more or three years from the beginning of the project?
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TSX69
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AutoBlog has an article & this is what it says:
Still, Honda is pushing forward with the next generation of its IMA system, and it will be added to larger, thirstier models within the next three years or so.
This is way too late ... Honda had the 1st midsize family sedan (I think) but since the Accord did not workout, it seems like every other automaker has 1 now: Camry, Malibu, Fusion, Sonata .....
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danielgr
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Blue_Sky_surfer wrote:
Does that mean to wait three years more or three years from the beginning of the project?
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Blue_Sky_surfer
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Thanks. The Autoblog points to Autonews which points back to Reuter story here. (http://in.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-46303520100219)
Kawanabe declined to specify when the new hybrid system would be ready, but said it would be "roughly the same time frame" as the three years it takes on average on develop a new vehicle.
Interesting timing, why Honda come out now if it's still 3 years away.
How often do these guys have a chat together?
3 more years -> FMC MDX?
How about RL? RWD? Another V6 AWD? Or a hybrid but 3 more yrs? (A hybrid --> stay on Accord platform?)
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Longhorn
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Next RL is two years away
Next Accord is two years away
Next TL is three years away
Next Pilot is three years away
See a pattern?
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Cory
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That pattern that I am most interested in is that our CR-V will be in need of replacing in three years. I would love to park a new Honda Hybrid in our driveway behind our Insight.
I'm excited for this news but Honda should have been doing this about 5 years ago. They were first to the hybrid game and then let Toyota pass them by.
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superchg
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Diesel offerings would be nice too, since VW/Audi has the entire U.S. 4 cylinder diesel market right now!
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danielgr
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superchg wrote:
Diesel offerings would be nice too, since VW/Audi has the entire U.S. 4 cylinder diesel market right now! |
Now speaking of "market" takes this conversation to a very different league. So yes, VW group has the entire US 4 cylinder diesel market right now, but I have to ask you a few questions:
- how big is such market?
- how much money there is to be made in that market?
- how much of that market do you think Honda could take on their own?
- how much do you think Honda would need to expend to effectively do it?
- do you believe it's the best thing Honda could do with such money? aren't there any other business opportunities for Honda which could result in a better return on investment?
I'm pretty sure that if you find the answer to those questions you may end up understanding Honda's position about it in the present time (doesn't mean that it's never going to change). You know, one of the differences between them and us is that they have most answers to those questions on their desk whenever they make decisions. It's easy for any of us to say they are wrong, because we hardly know anything at all.
PS: As I said, that changes nothing to your wish of owning a Honda diesel, but you simply shouldn't try to justify your wish based on anything market related...
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superchg
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danielgr wrote:
superchg wrote:
Diesel offerings would be nice too, since VW/Audi has the entire U.S. 4 cylinder diesel market right now! |
Now speaking of "market" takes this conversation to a very different league. So yes, VW group has the entire US 4 cylinder diesel market right now, but I have to ask you a few questions:
- how big is such market?
- how much money there is to be made in that market?
- how much of that market do you think Honda could take on their own?
- how much do you think Honda would need to expend to effectively do it?
- do you believe it's the best thing Honda could do with such money? aren't there any other business opportunities for Honda which could result in a better return on investment?
I'm pretty sure that if you find the answer to those questions you may end up understanding Honda's position about it in the present time (doesn't mean that it's never going to change). You know, one of the differences between them and us is that they have most answers to those questions on their desk whenever they make decisions. It's easy for any of us to say they are wrong, because we hardly know anything at all.
PS: As I said, that changes nothing to your wish of owning a Honda diesel, but you simply shouldn't try to justify your wish based on anything market related...
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The fact is, the diesel is a very big deal in Europe where Honda already has their excellent motor on the market. Without it they would not be very competitive! This diesel is already very low emissions and Honda has the stick shift 50-state certified already, but not the automatic. It probably would not cost much to complete this process, and I do think there is a market in the U.S.
As far as your reading into my reasons for posting about the diesel, you come off as a little confrontational.
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danielgr
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superchg wrote:
danielgr wrote:
superchg wrote:
Diesel offerings would be nice too, since VW/Audi has the entire U.S. 4 cylinder diesel market right now! |
Now speaking of "market" takes this conversation to a very different league. So yes, VW group has the entire US 4 cylinder diesel market right now, but I have to ask you a few questions:
- how big is such market?
- how much money there is to be made in that market?
- how much of that market do you think Honda could take on their own?
- how much do you think Honda would need to expend to effectively do it?
- do you believe it's the best thing Honda could do with such money? aren't there any other business opportunities for Honda which could result in a better return on investment?
I'm pretty sure that if you find the answer to those questions you may end up understanding Honda's position about it in the present time (doesn't mean that it's never going to change). You know, one of the differences between them and us is that they have most answers to those questions on their desk whenever they make decisions. It's easy for any of us to say they are wrong, because we hardly know anything at all.
PS: As I said, that changes nothing to your wish of owning a Honda diesel, but you simply shouldn't try to justify your wish based on anything market related...
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The fact is, the diesel is a very big deal in Europe where Honda already has their excellent motor on the market. Without it they would not be very competitive! This diesel is already very low emissions and Honda has the stick shift 50-state certified already, but not the automatic. It probably would not cost much to complete this process, and I do think there is a market in the U.S.
As far as your reading into my reasons for posting about the diesel, you come off as a little confrontational.
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Anyway, a few facts to feed your curiosity:
- Honda's market share in Europe is bellow 2%, behind almost everyone but Kia, Mazda, Mitsubishi and some specialized makers.
- Honda's "European" car sales (including countries like Russia) represented in 2009 less than 9% of Honda's global sales.
- Insight regularly outsold Civic diesel through 2009, although it would be fair to expect a less powerfull, more efficient and cheaper diesel would have sold better than Honda's current offer did.
- The Insight global sales outsold the whole European Honda diesel lineup (Civic+CR-V+FR-V+Accord).
- European makers have a great advantage in diesels, with whole lineups of cars ready to hit any market if needed, whereas Honda has a single unit, with a depolluting sollution that they have publicly admitted as being "too expensive to make a business case out of it".
Want diesels? Pay us a visit in Europe, if anything you'll lose gasoline engines and automatic transmissions options...
Want Honda to bring diesels to the US? Go find the answers to my questions and show us (and them) how much of a business opportunity they are losing right now. Also, since you are at it, try to find out how is it going to evolve in the near future, considering things like the risks associated with ever stricter exhaust emissions regulations around the globe.
PS: I just read past week that Honda was considering a new smaller diesel, mainly because of its interest for the Indian market. You would have noticed that as a developping nation India is still very far from reaching our requirements in terms of exhaust gases. You would have noticed as well that diesels have an important chunk of that market, and that India is believed to be one of the biggest reserves for automobile sales growth in the upcoming decades. Not surprising that Honda is considering that option, specially if you keep in mind that pro-diesel_over-lobbied Europe would also welcome such engine. The US?... I don't think it's coming soon...
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superchg
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danielgr wrote:
superchg wrote:
danielgr wrote:
superchg wrote:
Diesel offerings would be nice too, since VW/Audi has the entire U.S. 4 cylinder diesel market right now!
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Want Honda to bring diesels to the US? Go find the answers to my questions and show us (and them) how much of a business opportunity they are losing right now.
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Here are Volkswagen's sales from last July with their clean diesel taking 30% of the sales! danielgr, do you think VW will take the diesel out of their line-up?
HERNDON, Va., Aug. 3 /PRNewswire/ -- Volkswagen of America, Inc. today announced July 2009 sales of 20,590 units, representing a 0.7 percent increase over July 2008.
Volkswagen's award winning clean diesels, Jetta, Jetta SportWagen, and Touareg TDI, once again posted their best sales month since their re-launch with 6,320 units -- accounting for more than 30 percent of total sales. The Jetta SportWagen for the third consecutive month posted its best sales month ever with sales of 2,415 units; clean diesel TDIs represented 81 percent of SportWagen sales, and 40 percent of Jetta sedan sales.
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TSX69
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Civic Hybrid Tests Honda's New Strategy
Despite being the first to sell an electric-gasoline car in the United States and making hybrid technology a centerpiece of its fuel economy push, Honda Motor Co. has yet to have a hybrid hit.
But the redesigned Civic Hybrid, launched April 20, is the first test of whether Honda's new strategy of tapping lithium ion batteries and, later, two-motor systems can break the streak.
Past Honda hybrids have fallen short on fuel economy, as the Insight did against the Toyota Prius, or on power, as the short-lived Honda Accord hybrid fared against nonhybrid rivals. Honda's new hybrid plan aims to fix both problems.
The first improvement is using lithium ion batteries, made by Blue Energy Co., a joint venture between Honda and GS Yuasa Corp. The goal is to save weight and space, while increasing fuel economy. But the new batteries are costly.
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HONDA AFVM
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TSX69 wrote:
Civic Hybrid Tests Honda's New Strategy
Despite being the first to sell an electric-gasoline car in the United States and making hybrid technology a centerpiece of its fuel economy push, Honda Motor Co. has yet to have a hybrid hit.
But the redesigned Civic Hybrid, launched April 20, is the first test of whether Honda's new strategy of tapping lithium ion batteries and, later, two-motor systems can break the streak.
Past Honda hybrids have fallen short on fuel economy, as the Insight did against the Toyota Prius, or on power, as the short-lived Honda Accord hybrid fared against nonhybrid rivals. Honda's new hybrid plan aims to fix both problems.
The first improvement is using lithium ion batteries, made by Blue Energy Co., a joint venture between Honda and GS Yuasa Corp. The goal is to save weight and space, while increasing fuel economy. But the new batteries are costly.
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As I said in another post, there are currently Honda Odyssey hybrids running on the roads today testing the 2 mode..............it's happening and it should be a better system then Toyota.........
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FiSH-Chan
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superchg wrote:
Diesel offerings would be nice too, since VW/Audi has the entire U.S. 4 cylinder diesel market right now!
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Unless something happened with the diesel engines that didn't NEED turbos and they don't have any of the diesel quirks, I am simply not interested in a diesel. I have driven modern diesels (in fact just drove one yesterday), and also seen and wondered why some late model 'clean' diesels on the road in my town are blowing out lots of smoke.
Okay, I have yet to drive a modern German diesel. And also I have yet to drive a Honda diesel. But otherwise, mostly the Japanese modern diesels which are supposedly very good (Isuzu, Mitsubishi, Toyota) I simply DON'T like how they drove.
That is my opinion. I am interested in the new hybrid system and hopefully any future Hondas would have one that would be less costly. Would that be the 3 motor system or some other new tech that I haven't heard about?
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FiSH-Chan
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danielgr wrote:
PS: I just read past week that Honda was considering a new smaller diesel, mainly because of its interest for the Indian market. You would have noticed that as a developping nation India is still very far from reaching our requirements in terms of exhaust gases. You would have noticed as well that diesels have an important chunk of that market, and that India is believed to be one of the biggest reserves for automobile sales growth in the upcoming decades. Not surprising that Honda is considering that option, specially if you keep in mind that pro-diesel_over-lobbied Europe would also welcome such engine. The US?... I don't think it's coming soon...
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That would be for the Fit / City / Freed and similar sized models. I think it's a good move by Honda, but that won't change my opinion on diesels, unless they really did some magic with the engines.
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longhorn
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From the article-
An engineer involved with the project said testing is expected to continue through year end, and the company must decide if the 15-mile range in electric-only mode is sufficient. If user feedback suggests more range is needed, Honda will have to make the battery bigger or cut the car's weight, he said.
"We think a 15 mile range satisfies about 70 percent of the users," he said.
Already, Honda has tweaked the plug-in version of the Accord with an aluminum hood and other weight shavings. But the plug-in still weighs 330 pounds more than its gasoline counterpart.
Honda is rolling out the new hybrid system to counter criticism that its current technology is too weak to provide extended electric-only travel. The Integrated Motor Assist system used in the Insight, Civic and CR-Z hybrids uses the electric motor mostly to assist the gasoline engine.
The new system uses one traction motor to move the car and one generator motor to recharge the battery. The former, a 120-kilowatt motor, is combined with a 2.0-liter, four cylinder engine and continuously variable transmission.
The car has a top speed of 62 mph in electric-only mode, but a big question will be how far it can travel at that speed. The Accord plug-in hybrid can recharge in four hours from a 100-volt source or in 1.5 hours from a 200-volt source, the engineer said.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110606/OEM01/306069958/1186#ixzz1OVXfPaq2
330 pound penalty is not bad for a 15 mile range. This car is going to give one 80% of the Volt for probably the same money and a bigger car to boot. However this car will go between EV and regular mode while the Volt cannot. Hope this does debut next year with the new Accord. Will Honda wait for the Ody MMC before debuting the new system?
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Potenza
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longhorn wrote:
The new system uses one traction motor to move the car and one generator motor to recharge the battery. The former, a 120-kilowatt motor, is combined with a 2.0-liter, four cylinder engine and continuously variable transmission.
330 pound penalty is not bad for a 15 mile range. This car is going to give one 80% of the Volt for probably the same money and a bigger car to boot. However this car will go between EV and regular mode while the Volt cannot. Hope this does debut next year with the new Accord. Will Honda wait for the Ody MMC before debuting the new system?
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I'm as interested in the 4-cylinder part of it. Will it be a SOHC or DOHC? K-series or something entirely new? Will it have the "Atkinson" cycle that hybrid makers love so much?
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TonyEX
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"...Honda is rolling out the new hybrid system to counter criticism that its current technology is too weak to provide extended electric-only travel. The Integrated Motor Assist system used in the Insight, Civic and CR-Z hybrids uses the electric motor mostly to assist the gasoline engine..."
Jeez... humbug..
Who gives a shit about extended electric only travel???
The real deal is mpg and short trips on electric only travel that require frequent recharging are NOT more efficient.... in fact they require electricity from somewhere.. That's not efficient.
The problem here is
AMERICAN HONDA PR SUCKS
AHM should EXPLAIN to people that the deal here is efficiency and that IMA is different than Synergy and thus the end results will be different.
AHM should explain to people that electricity is NOT free and that once the big battery pack drains then you are in essence dragging along an extra anchor.
AHM should address this criticism (fundamentally stemming from Toyota's excellent PR machine) head on and educate the people.
Jeez.
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FiSH-Chan
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TonyE wrote:
AHM should EXPLAIN to people that the deal here is efficiency and that IMA is different than Synergy and thus the end results will be different.
AHM should explain to people that electricity is NOT free and that once the big battery pack drains then you are in essence dragging along an extra anchor.
AHM should address this criticism (fundamentally stemming from Toyota's excellent PR machine) head on and educate the people.
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+1
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danielgr
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Potenza wrote:
longhorn wrote:
The new system uses one traction motor to move the car and one generator motor to recharge the battery. The former, a 120-kilowatt motor, is combined with a 2.0-liter, four cylinder engine and continuously variable transmission.
330 pound penalty is not bad for a 15 mile range. This car is going to give one 80% of the Volt for probably the same money and a bigger car to boot. However this car will go between EV and regular mode while the Volt cannot. Hope this does debut next year with the new Accord. Will Honda wait for the Ody MMC before debuting the new system?
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I'm as interested in the 4-cylinder part of it. Will it be a SOHC or DOHC? K-series or something entirely new? Will it have the "Atkinson" cycle that hybrid makers love so much?
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Colin
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TonyE wrote:
AHM should explain to people that electricity is NOT free and that once the big battery pack drains then you are in essence dragging along an extra anchor.
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I would assume that since the car still does regenerative braking that you will still be putting energy into the system. I wonder if driven like we do with current IMA systems, you couldn't extend that 15 mile range ? Personally, I feel like I can 'bank' more energy than my batteries will let me store and often wish for more capacity in the CR-Z system.
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Hondasrule
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TonyE wrote:
"...Honda is rolling out the new hybrid system to counter criticism that its current technology is too weak to provide extended electric-only travel. The Integrated Motor Assist system used in the Insight, Civic and CR-Z hybrids uses the electric motor mostly to assist the gasoline engine..."
Jeez... humbug..
Who gives a shit about extended electric only travel???
The real deal is mpg and short trips on electric only travel that require frequent recharging are NOT more efficient.... in fact they require electricity from somewhere.. That's not efficient.
The problem here is
AMERICAN HONDA PR SUCKS
AHM should EXPLAIN to people that the deal here is efficiency and that IMA is different than Synergy and thus the end results will be different.
AHM should explain to people that electricity is NOT free and that once the big battery pack drains then you are in essence dragging along an extra anchor.
AHM should address this criticism (fundamentally stemming from Toyota's excellent PR machine) head on and educate the people.
Jeez. |
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