CivicB18 wrote: I thought this was a thread about the Buick Regal not a political discussion.
~Patrick
God Bless Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and the Congressional Democratic caucus for supporting President Obama.
The larger point I wanted to make was that Buick still has a major brand problem and this derailed thread illustrates it perfectly. People would rather troll about Nancy Pelosi, the UAW, etc than discuss this car, which is merely "adequate", at least on paper. If the new GM wants more attention, they need more than just "adequate" to get people interested.
CivicB18 wrote: I thought this was a thread about the Buick Regal not a political discussion.
~Patrick
God Bless Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and the Congressional Democratic caucus for supporting President Obama.
The larger point I wanted to make was that Buick still has a major brand problem and this derailed thread illustrates it perfectly. People would rather troll about Nancy Pelosi, the UAW, etc than discuss this car, which is merely "adequate", at least on paper. If the new GM wants more attention, they need more than just "adequate" to get people interested.
Republicans suck. Vote independent ;-)
"Republicans suck" - Really??? yeah...that's going to be well received. Yikes! and doesn't TOV have a Political Forum for 'opinions' like that. Please moderate yourselves so the Moderators don't have to.
+1 Vote Independent. Make up your own mind for each election and for each position. Both parties have some sucky people and some good. Voters should not be afraid to cross party lines and vote for the most qualified individual.
I think GM has another home run on its hands. At a time when Acura's new products will be slowed due to 'refocusing', the competition has the peddle to the floor and going full force. This is an example of it.
Styling is purely subjective and there is no right or wrong, but in my opinion the Regal looks pretty good, and since it will be imported from Germany first before production moving to Canada, the ride should be the same as the Opel sold in Europe. Keep in mind this car originally was supposed to be a Saturn.
Wanga ..sorry .. that is just a pic from the internet! I dont actually own it. Although at the time ...I did want one. This is back when NASCAR was still rooted in real cars.
I currently drive a black 2004 Honda Civic SiR EP3.
80honda wrote: I refuse to even consider a vehicle built by the UAW!
Way to be supportive of your countrymen.
It isn't like the UAW doesn't deserve it. Besides, I can support my countrymen just fine by buying other products made in this country from businesses who didn't have to suck down $40 billion of my tax money because they have, and have had viable long term business plans and strategies.
I am not a wide supporter of using my hard earned dollars to uphold uncompetitive companies and their bloated, overpaid, union workers because I should support "my countrymen." What about them supporting THEIR countrymen by not assuming they are entitled to some standard of living that they don't really have the background to justify, under work rules that are unrealistic, with benefits that are greedy and way beyond average in this country? Why should I have to spend MY hard earned money so that they can sit fat dumb and happy? I don't get to have a fraction of the benefits they do, and yet I am supposed to funnel MY retirement into their wallets, so they can continue to live better than me? B.S. It isn't going to happen. Be glad I wasn't in government because I would have let them die, regardless of the temporary short term loss in jobs it would have caused. It would have removed competitive pressure from the other automakers/workers who actually wanted to succeed based on realistic work rules and a strong product portfolio.
Not to mention the fact that buying a GM built in Germany of Korean and Brazilian parts is hardly supporting my countrymen.
No less then two of GM’s raft of hybrid systems may find their way into the Opel/Buick.
gm-volt.com cites a report in Ward’s Auto [subscription] that GM will start production of an updated version of their not-even mildly successful mild-hybrid belt/alternator/starter BAS system in late 2011.
(T)his new version has a plus symbol attached, so its going to really fly this time: The new BAS+ has a 120 V li-ion pack, so it takes up less space and has 33% more belt yanking ability.
The Regal’s line director, Jim Frederico, told Ward’s that the Regal is just the right size to also host the upcoming 2-mode transverse plug-in drivetrain as well. You haven’t forgotten about that one yet, have you. It’s the one that was intended for the Saturn VUE.
Car and driver has the first drive. IMO Buick seems to have a solid product on hand. If the price is right, I don't doubt that even the younger buyer may consider it. Adaptive shocks, turbo and 6MT on a Buick? We may want to thank the economic crisis.
I have to laugh a bit when seeing this:
"Buick has now set its stall as a rival to the soft-luxury automakers such as Lincoln, Volvo, Acura, and Lexus, leaving the more hard-core field of German brands to Cadillac. Mind you, brand loyalists may still have a problem getting their heads around a Buick that can actually compete with an Acura."
If Buick put a Turbo on the Regal...just imagine a TSX turbo!! That's too much to ask now that they put the V-6 in there...but I can dream...I have an RDX and love the Turbo engine!!
Exactly how I and I am sure many others feel. With the stepped up quality and style from Ford and GM, Honda/Acura is in deep trouble.
jeasher wrote: I find myself wanting an American car for my next purchase, and whether that's an American nameplate or a foreign nameplate made in America, it's something I'm going to give strong consideration. Until now I would never even have considered a Buick. The idea was completely ridiculous because their product was geared towards 80 year olds (or so it seemed).
This new generation of cars is extremely interesting to me. I can't take my eyes off the LaCrosse when I see one, and this Regal looks awesome. I don't care if it's a rebadged Opel. The fact it's made in Germany is a negative? Nope. I can't believe I'm writing this, but when my lease is up in two years (2008 G35) I will, gulp, shop Buick.
TurkMan71 wrote: Looks better than the TSX imho, but a bit down on power, isn't?
There you go, and I was just thinking how the Regal made the TSX look positively handsome :( No way is it beautiful!
Beauty and the beholder....... :)
No doubt it is an attractive car, it lacks refinement though. The area where the sunroof is for instance, that GM gray and the interior is nice, but not on par with the TSX. The head lights and tail lights look cheap and plastic (I know they are plastic). It takes German engineering to compete with Acura and as you can see thay are threatened by Acura, so that says something.
As if "socialist" is a dirty word, would you also label "empathy" and "compassion" in the same vein. Without government interventions and the unions, we would still be indentured servants to monopolies. Unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, you didn't get to where you were without those who fought for your rights. Be grateful to those who have fought the fight for all us, instead of spewing your brainwashed Bush/Cheney rhetoric, it is so 2000.
If it wasn't for the unions huh????
Can you name ONE company that is the lowest cost provider is ANY industry that has a unioninized labor force?
The highest percentage of unionized workers in the US was around 18-20% and we are currently around 10-11% whith the majority of current union jobs being federal and state workers. Explain to me why you think that these unions that were at most 1/5 of the work force and now 1/10 impact what every other person makes.
Also, if unions due so much why is every new car manufacturing plant located in right to work states?
Last time I looked a lot of people still come to this country without a silver spoon in their mouths and are still able to suceed in life without goverment help.
seriously? do you live in the US of A?
You want government to take over more business? You want fairness being 'dictated' by bureaucrats out of DC who DO HAVE SILVER(or GOLD) spoons in their mouths ... who haven't 'really worked' many days in their lives except for going to Harvard or Yale? C'mon...
The USA has been built by small business people risking time, money etc to provide jobs - yes, to make money. How else do they survive, they have to make money.
I'm not going to get in this debate but if you want socialism, it's on it's way to America (actually, already here - thanks to ALL of our former presidents - except Reagan).
But, if you (and if you live in the USA) want fairness, move to Venezuela, move to Russia, Cuba ... is that what YOU really want? Less freedom?
that's what we're getting. 2,000+ pages for healthcare and 16 or so pages for the US Constitution ... what are these nuts doing in DC!?!? Why don't they listen to their constituents - people want the economy & jobs worked on, not healthcare... or not this healthcare.
From a small business owner (ie, really small - 5 employees - not 150 or 1000) ... this healthcare could greatly impact us. I provide all benefits, 100% pay ... public option, change of policies (which happens each year) ... will push me to a public option which I don't want to be on. Anyway, my point is THEY are SCREWING UP BIG-TIME.
< rant done >
ru4real wrote: As if "socialist" is a dirty word, would you also label "empathy" and "compassion" in the same vein. Without government interventions and the unions, we would still be indentured servants to monopolies. Unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, you didn't get to where you were without those who fought for your rights. Be grateful to those who have fought the fight for all us, instead of spewing your brainwashed Bush/Cheney rhetoric, it is so 2000.
ru4real wrote: As if "socialist" is a dirty word, would you also label "empathy" and "compassion" in the same vein. Without government interventions and the unions, we would still be indentured servants to monopolies. Unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, you didn't get to where you were without those who fought for your rights. Be grateful to those who have fought the fight for all us, instead of spewing your brainwashed Bush/Cheney rhetoric, it is so 2000.
Please excuse me for interrupting a political fight to talk cars.
GM saved Buick because of the Chinese market not the U.S. If they wanted to save a brand that was doing better in the US, they would have saved Saturn or Pontiac. I understand Buick sells well in China, with a nice per vehicle profit while Saturn and Pontiac was losing money each time it sold a car. Buick probably was also losing money per car in the U.S. but didn't really sell that many cars.
I bring this up because let's face it Buick does not have a great image among the American middle to upper class car buyer, the very buyers the new car is aimed at. People would look at me as if I were nuts if I said I just bought a Buick Regal. Can Buick re-brand itself like Cadillac is slowly doing without having to subsidize US sales? I think that's the real question, not which car, Regal or TSX, is either a "better" car or a better car "for the money".
I'm tired of excuses from Honda and its legions of diehard supporters who think Honda is great just because of their name and that everything else is crap. Not one person would be crying if this new Buick Regal would have been a new Honda Accord, the Toyota FT86 a Honda CRX and if the LFA arrived with calipers on its hood instead of an italicized "L."
And instead of discussing the merits of the Regal against the TSX, I have to hear the same old tired crap about unions from the same stale faces that can't get over their drubbing last year and their drubbing this year when the new prophet of their god Glenn Beck, Doug Hoffman managed to lose a seat owned by the GOP since Honest Abe was the President. Let's thank God that Palin isn't in office, or the Dow would be struggling to crack 1,000.
Even if you buy a car made in Japan or Germany you're supporting their unions in those countries, but you think it's all the unions' fault for making cars that people don't want because they don't support your political viewpoints. Last I checked, Honda isn't affiliated with the UAW and still managed to create the Crosstour.
jgalvan wrote: If it wasn't for the unions huh????
Can you name ONE company that is the lowest cost provider is ANY industry that has a unioninized labor force?
The highest percentage of unionized workers in the US was around 18-20% and we are currently around 10-11% whith the majority of current union jobs being federal and state workers. Explain to me why you think that these unions that were at most 1/5 of the work force and now 1/10 impact what every other person makes.
Also, if unions due so much why is every new car manufacturing plant located in right to work states?
Last time I looked a lot of people still come to this country without a silver spoon in their mouths and are still able to suceed in life without goverment help.
Your rhetoric is so 2009 get over yourself
You're so full of shit, I don't know where to start. We can start with your spelling, which is as pathetic as your viewpoints.
I bet for you, it would be a wet dream for the US to abandon all unions, worker's rights and have us work in sweatshop conditions in China. We won't be able to buy anything, but your beloved companies will be able to have that "cheap labor" you love so much.
The unions did not tell GM, Chrysler and Ford to engineer and design crap in the 1980's. And if you think that Honda and Toyota are God for not taking the bailouts, the Japanese government gave them "loans" that they could pay back "at their convenience" which is basically the same thing.
The reason that car companies don't open new plants in unionized states is because of course no business wants to deal with the unions at the beginning. At the same time, their salary is on par with the UAW's current contracts because they know that the workers can choose anytime to unionize their plants. If you enjoy the weekend, safe working conditions and reasonable pay, thank the unions. If you don't, then tell your employer that you don't mind working for the same pay on weekends, that safe working conditions is a "socialist" ploy and that you are willing to work for whatever he wants to pay you, even if it's below minimum wage.
Your simplistic rich-good-poor-bad thinking got thrown out of the door back in 2008. So you can shove your Bush-era thinking up your ass or get out of America, because you guys lost and lost bad. And don't talk about the gubernatorial races, those are state matters, in the recent Congressional elections, you guys lost again in CA and NY after blowing all that steam about a "close race" and other bullshit.
TonyE wrote: Irrational thinking? ROTFLOL... Listen, put down your pitcher of Obamalosi KoolAid and THINK for a bit.
Besides, I pay a zillion dollars in taxes to support Government Motors. Hell, I should own a big chunk of that piece of caca PLUS Chryslerini....
You want the truth?
You can't handle the truth!
jeasher wrote:
TonyE wrote: Want to buy american? then buy an Accord or TL. Designed and built in NA.
The Buick was designed in Germany and built by a socialist company owned by Obamalosi which is selling lots of cars in Communist China.
Hmm.... It always pisses me off that people are still drinking the KoolAid of "american" cars.
jeasher wrote: I find myself wanting an American car for my next purchase, and whether that's an American nameplate or a foreign nameplate made in America, it's something I'm going to give strong consideration. Until now I would never even have considered a Buick. The idea was completely ridiculous because their product was geared towards 80 year olds (or so it seemed).
This new generation of cars is extremely interesting to me. I can't take my eyes off the LaCrosse when I see one, and this Regal looks awesome. I don't care if it's a rebadged Opel. The fact it's made in Germany is a negative? Nope. I can't believe I'm writing this, but when my lease is up in two years (2008 G35) I will, gulp, shop Buick.
It's the ignorance and irrational thinking of people like yourselves that shame us as Americans.
I'm sure I'd like you very much if I ever met you in person, but I'm pretty sure you'd be saying that GM was A-OK if they went belly up a few months earlier and George Bush gave them the money.
jgalvan wrote: If it wasn't for the unions huh????
Can you name ONE company that is the lowest cost provider is ANY industry that has a unioninized labor force?
The highest percentage of unionized workers in the US was around 18-20% and we are currently around 10-11% whith the majority of current union jobs being federal and state workers. Explain to me why you think that these unions that were at most 1/5 of the work force and now 1/10 impact what every other person makes.
Also, if unions due so much why is every new car manufacturing plant located in right to work states?
Last time I looked a lot of people still come to this country without a silver spoon in their mouths and are still able to suceed in life without goverment help.
Your rhetoric is so 2009 get over yourself
You're so full of shit, I don't know where to start. We can start with your spelling, which is as pathetic as your viewpoints.
I bet for you, it would be a wet dream for the US to abandon all unions, worker's rights and have us work in sweatshop conditions in China. We won't be able to buy anything, but your beloved companies will be able to have that "cheap labor" you love so much.
The unions did not tell GM, Chrysler and Ford to engineer and design crap in the 1980's. And if you think that Honda and Toyota are God for not taking the bailouts, the Japanese government gave them "loans" that they could pay back "at their convenience" which is basically the same thing.
The reason that car companies don't open new plants in unionized states is because of course no business wants to deal with the unions at the beginning. At the same time, their salary is on par with the UAW's current contracts because they know that the workers can choose anytime to unionize their plants. If you enjoy the weekend, safe working conditions and reasonable pay, thank the unions. If you don't, then tell your employer that you don't mind working for the same pay on weekends, that safe working conditions is a "socialist" ploy and that you are willing to work for whatever he wants to pay you, even if it's below minimum wage.
Your simplistic rich-good-poor-bad thinking got thrown out of the door back in 2008. So you can shove your Bush-era thinking up your ass or get out of America, because you guys lost and lost bad. And don't talk about the gubernatorial races, those are state matters, in the recent Congressional elections, you guys lost again in CA and NY after blowing all that steam about a "close race" and other bullshit.
I agree back in the time unions were needed in this country due to extremely poor working conditions and very long working hours. However, in this global economy unions have become more of a greedy corporation themselves than a boon for our workers.
The unions care more about their dues and their political might than anything. They expand their membership by lies/fear/badgering, and there are no guarantees when a plant unionizes that their pay or benefits will improve at all. It just means they will have to pay dues, so they could actually end up with less.
I've worked in union shops and non-union shops. In the union shops I saw people sleeping and standing around and doing their best to work slow, so they could get overtime. The union is really good at keeping lazy, incompetent workers employed. In the non-union shops I worked employees had better morale, just as good of pay, while having better productivity at the same time (the "cancer" of the union not being there to poison the management/worker relationship).
The workplace today has OSHA and the EPA, plus overtime and minimum wage laws, so your viewpoints on unions may have been valid 80 years ago, but not today.
You're so full of shit, I don't know where to start. We can start with your spelling, which is as pathetic as your viewpoints.
.......union propaganda......
Your simplistic rich-good-poor-bad thinking got thrown out of the door back in 2008. So you can shove your Bush-era thinking up your ass or get out of America, because you guys lost and lost bad. And don't talk about the gubernatorial races, those are state matters, in the recent Congressional elections, you guys lost again in CA and NY after blowing all that steam about a "close race" and other bullshit.
Just a guess, but they way you fling insults and name calling, you are a registered Democrat.
jgalvan wrote: If it wasn't for the unions huh????
Can you name ONE company that is the lowest cost provider is ANY industry that has a unioninized labor force?
The highest percentage of unionized workers in the US was around 18-20% and we are currently around 10-11% whith the majority of current union jobs being federal and state workers. Explain to me why you think that these unions that were at most 1/5 of the work force and now 1/10 impact what every other person makes.
Also, if unions due so much why is every new car manufacturing plant located in right to work states?
Last time I looked a lot of people still come to this country without a silver spoon in their mouths and are still able to suceed in life without goverment help.
Your rhetoric is so 2009 get over yourself
You're so full of shit, I don't know where to start. We can start with your spelling, which is as pathetic as your viewpoints.
I bet for you, it would be a wet dream for the US to abandon all unions, worker's rights and have us work in sweatshop conditions in China. We won't be able to buy anything, but your beloved companies will be able to have that "cheap labor" you love so much.
The unions did not tell GM, Chrysler and Ford to engineer and design crap in the 1980's. And if you think that Honda and Toyota are God for not taking the bailouts, the Japanese government gave them "loans" that they could pay back "at their convenience" which is basically the same thing.
The reason that car companies don't open new plants in unionized states is because of course no business wants to deal with the unions at the beginning. At the same time, their salary is on par with the UAW's current contracts because they know that the workers can choose anytime to unionize their plants. If you enjoy the weekend, safe working conditions and reasonable pay, thank the unions. If you don't, then tell your employer that you don't mind working for the same pay on weekends, that safe working conditions is a "socialist" ploy and that you are willing to work for whatever he wants to pay you, even if it's below minimum wage.
Your simplistic rich-good-poor-bad thinking got thrown out of the door back in 2008. So you can shove your Bush-era thinking up your ass or get out of America, because you guys lost and lost bad. And don't talk about the gubernatorial races, those are state matters, in the recent Congressional elections, you guys lost again in CA and NY after blowing all that steam about a "close race" and other bullshit.
Wow. Bush is long gone and we've got a whole new set of problems. Get over it. And before you spew that bilge all over the board, why don't you try and come up with reasoned facts and statistics like jgalvan did? Whether you agree with him or not, at least he's trying to engage in a substantive debate. Your talking points and name calling really make you look like a bitter, small-minded fool.
jgalvan wrote: If it wasn't for the unions huh????
Can you name ONE company that is the lowest cost provider is ANY industry that has a unioninized labor force?
The highest percentage of unionized workers in the US was around 18-20% and we are currently around 10-11% whith the majority of current union jobs being federal and state workers. Explain to me why you think that these unions that were at most 1/5 of the work force and now 1/10 impact what every other person makes.
Also, if unions due so much why is every new car manufacturing plant located in right to work states?
Last time I looked a lot of people still come to this country without a silver spoon in their mouths and are still able to suceed in life without goverment help.
Your rhetoric is so 2009 get over yourself
You're so full of shit, I don't know where to start. We can start with your spelling, which is as pathetic as your viewpoints.
I bet for you, it would be a wet dream for the US to abandon all unions, worker's rights and have us work in sweatshop conditions in China. We won't be able to buy anything, but your beloved companies will be able to have that "cheap labor" you love so much.
The unions did not tell GM, Chrysler and Ford to engineer and design crap in the 1980's. And if you think that Honda and Toyota are God for not taking the bailouts, the Japanese government gave them "loans" that they could pay back "at their convenience" which is basically the same thing.
The reason that car companies don't open new plants in unionized states is because of course no business wants to deal with the unions at the beginning. At the same time, their salary is on par with the UAW's current contracts because they know that the workers can choose anytime to unionize their plants. If you enjoy the weekend, safe working conditions and reasonable pay, thank the unions. If you don't, then tell your employer that you don't mind working for the same pay on weekends, that safe working conditions is a "socialist" ploy and that you are willing to work for whatever he wants to pay you, even if it's below minimum wage.
Your simplistic rich-good-poor-bad thinking got thrown out of the door back in 2008. So you can shove your Bush-era thinking up your ass or get out of America, because you guys lost and lost bad. And don't talk about the gubernatorial races, those are state matters, in the recent Congressional elections, you guys lost again in CA and NY after blowing all that steam about a "close race" and other bullshit.
I agree back in the time unions were needed in this country due to extremely poor working conditions and very long working hours. However, in this global economy unions have become more of a greedy corporation themselves than a boon for our workers.
The unions care more about their dues and their political might than anything. They expand their membership by lies/fear/badgering, and there are no guarantees when a plant unionizes that their pay or benefits will improve at all. It just means they will have to pay dues, so they could actually end up with less.
I've worked in union shops and non-union shops. In the union shops I saw people sleeping and standing around and doing their best to work slow, so they could get overtime. The union is really good at keeping lazy, incompetent workers employed. In the non-union shops I worked employees had better morale, just as good of pay, while having better productivity at the same time (the "cancer" of the union not being there to poison the management/worker relationship).
The workplace today has OSHA and the EPA, plus overtime and minimum wage laws, so your viewpoints on unions may have been valid 80 years ago, but not today.
Very well said, Hondu.
It seems abundantly clear that one of the above posters is not responsible for running a business or program that needs to keep schedule, budget, production, and quality in-check all at the same time.
![[home]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/home.gif){kind=small}
![[rumors and news]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/rumors.gif){kind=small}
![[model release matrix]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/newmodelreleasematrix.gif){kind=small}
![[dealer network]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/dealernet.gif){kind=small}
![[desktop calendar]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/calendar.gif){kind=small}
![[exhaust notes]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/exhaust.gif){kind=small}
![[tov forums]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/forums.gif){kind=small}
![[links]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/links.gif){kind=small}
![[search]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/search.gif){kind=small}
![[sponsors]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/sponsors.gif){kind=small}
![[garage]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/garage.gif){kind=small}
![[login]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/login.gif){kind=small}
