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  TOV News > 2011 Acura RL Frankenmule Spied by Brenda Priddy & Co. > > Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD!

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VinceThe1
Profile for VinceThe1
The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2008 10:25
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anyone see the point in that? it's probably gonna be a RWD-based SH-AWD, or SH-RAWD..but i doubt they gonna make it just RWD because it'll look like a downgrade from what they already have.
CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2008 10:51
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VinceThe1 wrote:
anyone see the point in that? it's probably gonna be a RWD-based SH-AWD, or SH-RAWD..but i doubt they gonna make it just RWD because it'll look like a downgrade from what they already have.



To begin with the current RL has the SH-AWD as a bandaid as an attempt to sugarcoat its FWD based chassis. If this car was that good Acura wouldnt have made the SIGNIFICANT changes in the MMC (2009 RL). Its a good car in a sea of GREAT cars.

The new RL will be RWD and most likely have the SH-AWD system as an option, which to me is much smarter as everyone doesnt need AWD. A RWD chassis doesnt have to have SH-AWD to handle well as an FR platform naturally is better balanced and offers much better weight distribution. Less compromise equals a better product.



-Patrick
NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2008 13:36
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CivicB18 wrote:
VinceThe1 wrote:
anyone see the point in that? it's probably gonna be a RWD-based SH-AWD, or SH-RAWD..but i doubt they gonna make it just RWD because it'll look like a downgrade from what they already have.



To begin with the current RL has the SH-AWD as a bandaid as an attempt to sugarcoat its FWD based chassis. If this car was that good Acura wouldnt have made the SIGNIFICANT changes in the MMC (2009 RL). Its a good car in a sea of GREAT cars.

The new RL will be RWD and most likely have the SH-AWD system as an option, which to me is much smarter as everyone doesnt need AWD. A RWD chassis doesnt have to have SH-AWD to handle well as an FR platform naturally is better balanced and offers much better weight distribution. Less compromise equals a better product.



-Patrick



Yeah, I don't know of anyone that can say the RL is a bad car. Good cars don't sell when you can buy a great car.

I really hope they take the next RL and HAMMER the GS470 and A6. This needs to be the flagship car that shows the world what Honda is capable of. So far, Honda thinks it is just a plush trim level of a TL.

We all hope the days of Honda dominance will return.
sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2008 20:49
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CivicB18 wrote:
To begin with the current RL has the SH-AWD as a bandaid as an attempt to sugarcoat its FWD based chassis. If this car was that good Acura wouldnt have made the SIGNIFICANT changes in the MMC (2009 RL). Its a good car in a sea of GREAT cars.

The new RL will be RWD and most likely have the SH-AWD system as an option, which to me is much smarter as everyone doesnt need AWD. A RWD chassis doesnt have to have SH-AWD to handle well as an FR platform naturally is better balanced and offers much better weight distribution. Less compromise equals a better product.
-Patrick



I'm getting tired of reading your comments on the RL Patrick. The RL compared, like with like, is BETTER than the equivalent Lexus/Infinity/BMW/Merc model, as reported in the motoring press. It is only when compared with higher performance models form the other manufacturers that it suffers in comparison. And don't get me started on the handling issue, but wait that is one I can never win due to your predjudice angainst anything that is not RWD. The RL/Legend is a GREAT car, not perfect, but at least the equal of anything comparable from the other manufacturers, let down by marketing decisions rather than any fundamental flaws in the vehicle.

I know, I'm flogging a dead horse! :)
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2008 21:24
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sadlerau wrote:
I know, I'm flogging a dead horse! :)


Holy crap, I never realized that this has become a demented catchphrase of sorts
dontcare
Profile for dontcare
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2008 21:39
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Interesting Points. I never thought of SH-AWD as a band-aid. Are you claiming that All AWD systems are, or just the one Acura is putting out?
dohc89
Profile for dohc89
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2008 21:45
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VinceThe1 wrote:
anyone see the point in that? it's probably gonna be a RWD-based SH-AWD, or SH-RAWD..but i doubt they gonna make it just RWD because it'll look like a downgrade from what they already have.


Who says that Honda can't create a RWD vehicle based from the current platform. If any of you remember, Chrysler used the then FWD 300M shoehorned with the Hemi V8, and Mercedes mechanicals to test the RWD setup. The car had a lengthened wheelbase, longer front end, and taller hood. You can't typically call any platform front-wheel drive based when lengthening the front end, reworking the transmission tunnel, and rear suspension to accomodate a differential like the RL already has. Surely if Mugen can create a RWD RL with a V8, Honda can. RWD is not above what Honda can do. The S2000 is a prime example. Low volume. Clearly they didn't think they would make tremendous profits from that car. All I'm saying is even the current platform can be made into RWD. I really like the car as pictured, but I know that won't be the exact next RL. If it's close, my current RL will be on the market.
CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-14-2008 11:09
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sadlerau wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
To begin with the current RL has the SH-AWD as a bandaid as an attempt to sugarcoat its FWD based chassis. If this car was that good Acura wouldnt have made the SIGNIFICANT changes in the MMC (2009 RL). Its a good car in a sea of GREAT cars.

The new RL will be RWD and most likely have the SH-AWD system as an option, which to me is much smarter as everyone doesnt need AWD. A RWD chassis doesnt have to have SH-AWD to handle well as an FR platform naturally is better balanced and offers much better weight distribution. Less compromise equals a better product.
-Patrick



I'm getting tired of reading your comments on the RL Patrick. The RL compared, like with like, is BETTER than the equivalent Lexus/Infinity/BMW/Merc model, as reported in the motoring press. It is only when compared with higher performance models form the other manufacturers that it suffers in comparison. And don't get me started on the handling issue, but wait that is one I can never win due to your predjudice angainst anything that is not RWD. The RL/Legend is a GREAT car, not perfect, but at least the equal of anything comparable from the other manufacturers, let down by marketing decisions rather than any fundamental flaws in the vehicle.

I know, I'm flogging a dead horse! :)




If youre tired of my comments.....Im sorry, dont read them . Im just stating my opinion like others do on this forum. I didnt realize that was wrong.

1...I reapeat 1 version of the RL was equally comparable (past tense) to versions of the competition. The competition has since moved on and offers a MUCH broader spectrum of trim lines/options for less and/or more money and much more usuable power and efficiency. Youre going to tell me the RL is comparable to a 535i Sport, GS350 or a M35 Sport? The RL could most likely outhandle the GS but the 535 and M35 will simply eat the RL for breakfast especially in terms of accelleration where even the GS would kill an RL. This car was outclassed not long after its debut.


I never said I didnt like FWD or AWD vehicles ( I own 4 cars which 3 are FWD) but in this market segment a re-engineered Accord simply wont cut it. Compromise is the killer here and as good as the SH-AWD system is, its simply a bandaid for the FWD platform. Compromising is what put Acura in its current position.

FR is the better solution and from what I can see Acura is FINALLY coming to their senses and giving the RL a true NATURALLY BALANCED FR platform not some computer driven "Im gonna tell this wheel to spin faster" bandaid. If the RL was that good of a handler (which it is with the AWD) why didnt Acura offer this car with FWD? Just more proof that the RL required the addition of AWD just to make it handle well.

To add to that the car wasnt marketed correctly as you said and the initial list price was crazy. Acura shouldnt have offered this car loaded at its debut. You cant offer a good product in a sea of great ones especially when their starting prices are much lower. The sales numbers for this car reflect that. Acura needs a FULL BLOWN dedicated higher performing RWD car that can go HEAD TO HEAD with the competition not one that sits in the grandstands as a spectator wishing it could play with the big goys.




-Patrick

CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-14-2008 16:34
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dohc89 wrote:
VinceThe1 wrote:
anyone see the point in that? it's probably gonna be a RWD-based SH-AWD, or SH-RAWD..but i doubt they gonna make it just RWD because it'll look like a downgrade from what they already have.


Who says that Honda can't create a RWD vehicle based from the current platform. If any of you remember, Chrysler used the then FWD 300M shoehorned with the Hemi V8, and Mercedes mechanicals to test the RWD setup. The car had a lengthened wheelbase, longer front end, and taller hood. You can't typically call any platform front-wheel drive based when lengthening the front end, reworking the transmission tunnel, and rear suspension to accomodate a differential like the RL already has. Surely if Mugen can create a RWD RL with a V8, Honda can. RWD is not above what Honda can do. The S2000 is a prime example. Low volume. Clearly they didn't think they would make tremendous profits from that car. All I'm saying is even the current platform can be made into RWD. I really like the car as pictured, but I know that won't be the exact next RL. If it's close, my current RL will be on the market.




Wouldnt it just be easier to produce a FR platform from the start rather than to significantly alter a current FWD platform and make it RWD? Comprmoses would still exist. If taking a FWD platform and making it RWD was the best solution dont you think some of the best handling RWD cars would start out as such? Low compromise cars like the S2000, Corvette and various BMWs benefit from a good old fashioned FR setup and I think these cars can prove that. Im not saying it isnt possible but why do it if one can produce a RWD platform?


-Patrick


CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-14-2008 17:00
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dontcare wrote:
Interesting Points. I never thought of SH-AWD as a band-aid. Are you claiming that All AWD systems are, or just the one Acura is putting out?


No no! Im not saying all AWD systems are bandaids for performance as it just depends on how its implemented. If the car HAS to be equipped with an AWD system to be competitive (RL) with others in the segment I look at is as a bandaid and a compromise.

Of course there are exceptions with the lighter FWD based AWD dependent cars like the Evolution and the STi as they dont weigh 4100lbs or have big V6s ahead of the front axle. They handle very well.

Remove the SH-AWD system from the BMW 535xi and do the same to the RL while retaining their original drive wheels and see which car still handles well. Get my point?

I dont want people here to assume I think the SH-AWD system is useless as its clearly a great piece of engineering. OTOH if Acura wants to grasp and retain the image they desire (Tier 1) they cant rely just on SH-AWD alone to do that.



-Patrick
Nate34
Profile for Nate34
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-14-2008 20:04
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CivicB18 wrote:
dontcare wrote:
Interesting Points. I never thought of SH-AWD as a band-aid. Are you claiming that All AWD systems are, or just the one Acura is putting out?


No no! Im not saying all AWD systems are bandaids for performance as it just depends on how its implemented. If the car HAS to be equipped with an AWD system to be competitive (RL) with others in the segment I look at is as a bandaid and a compromise.

Of course there are exceptions with the lighter FWD based AWD dependent cars like the Evolution and the STi as they dont weigh 4100lbs or have big V6s ahead of the front axle. They handle very well.

Remove the SH-AWD system from the BMW 535xi and do the same to the RL while retaining their original drive wheels and see which car still handles well. Get my point?

I dont want people here to assume I think the SH-AWD system is useless as its clearly a great piece of engineering. OTOH if Acura wants to grasp and retain the image they desire (Tier 1) they cant rely just on SH-AWD alone to do that.

-Patrick



From my personal, realistic, real-life, everyday experience, SH-AWD >> RWD.
Granted, Acura may need a FR flagship as an option to create some "buzz", especially within the car-journalist-FR-german-leg-humpers but a regular or even better, rear-biased SH-AWD (like in the new 09' RL) will easily outmaneuver any FR anytime and in any conditions.

CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-15-2008 03:59
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Nate34 wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
dontcare wrote:
Interesting Points. I never thought of SH-AWD as a band-aid. Are you claiming that All AWD systems are, or just the one Acura is putting out?


No no! Im not saying all AWD systems are bandaids for performance as it just depends on how its implemented. If the car HAS to be equipped with an AWD system to be competitive (RL) with others in the segment I look at is as a bandaid and a compromise.

Of course there are exceptions with the lighter FWD based AWD dependent cars like the Evolution and the STi as they dont weigh 4100lbs or have big V6s ahead of the front axle. They handle very well.

Remove the SH-AWD system from the BMW 535xi and do the same to the RL while retaining their original drive wheels and see which car still handles well. Get my point?

I dont want people here to assume I think the SH-AWD system is useless as its clearly a great piece of engineering. OTOH if Acura wants to grasp and retain the image they desire (Tier 1) they cant rely just on SH-AWD alone to do that.

-Patrick



From my personal, realistic, real-life, everyday experience, SH-AWD >> RWD.
Granted, Acura may need a FR flagship as an option to create some "buzz", especially within the car-journalist-FR-german-leg-humpers but a regular or even better, rear-biased SH-AWD (like in the new 09' RL) will easily outmaneuver any FR anytime and in any conditions.





Rear biased or not it still doesnt change having all that weight over and in front of the front axle not behind the front axle like a true FR setup. FR will always be better balanced. You also have to consider the added weight from the xtra mechanicals/electronics of the AWD system. More weight less performance.


-Patrick
NickDC5
Profile for NickDC5
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-15-2008 05:19
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Theoretically the best AWD system should act as if it were RWD. So having SH-AWD with a rear bias would actually just be trying to make AWD more like RWD. Look at the newest version of the ATTESA-ETS for example. It is so good on the track because it acts like RWD. So why not just have RWD and cut out the middle man? Is putting a TINY bit of power to the outside front wheel really going to give a car that much of an advantage on corner exit? Of course not, especially considering additional weight and lag through a computer or mechanical system that determines how much power to send it.
Nate34
Profile for Nate34
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-15-2008 10:10
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NickDC5 wrote:
Theoretically the best AWD system should act as if it were RWD. So having SH-AWD with a rear bias would actually just be trying to make AWD more like RWD. Look at the newest version of the ATTESA-ETS for example. It is so good on the track because it acts like RWD. So why not just have RWD and cut out the middle man? Is putting a TINY bit of power to the outside front wheel really going to give a car that much of an advantage on corner exit? Of course not, especially considering additional weight and lag through a computer or mechanical system that determines how much power to send it.


The SH-AWD redirects power to the rear tires only when accelerating. Try fast cornerings and curves with a FR at high speeds, you'll get killed; SH-AWD feels like a train on tracks. Also SH-AWD is better with rain and Snowy conditions. So it is not just trying to be RWD, it's the best of both worlds, AWD and RWD imho. Weight and lag? you should try the RL, the SH-AWD system doesn't have any lag at all, and drives better than the GS350AWD, MB-E4 and BMW530xi

Blackraven
Profile for Blackraven
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-15-2008 11:38
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IMHO

I don't see Acura throwing SH-AWD away and moving to something like RWD for this vehicle. Perhaps, they can make improvements/enhancements to it (like improving rigidity, etc.)

Basically, I can't see that changing and besides, stability and traction-wise, I think the SH-AWD is a better companion.

Two cents.
CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-15-2008 12:53
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NickDC5 wrote:
Theoretically the best AWD system should act as if it were RWD. So having SH-AWD with a rear bias would actually just be trying to make AWD more like RWD. Look at the newest version of the ATTESA-ETS for example. It is so good on the track because it acts like RWD. So why not just have RWD and cut out the middle man? Is putting a TINY bit of power to the outside front wheel really going to give a car that much of an advantage on corner exit? Of course not, especially considering additional weight and lag through a computer or mechanical system that determines how much power to send it.



As most people know the GT-R is an FR based platform. So it still has that NATRUAL BALANCE Im speaking of where the engine sits behind the front axle for better weight distribution. A FWD platform with AWD, even rear biased STILL WILL NOT have the correct engine placement for optimum handling.

Another thing about these computer controlled devices such as the GT-R is it seems from what Ive read in several tests is that the GT-R while super fast is almost like drivng a really fast toaster. The speed is certainly there but the feedback and feel is lacking. Id easily pick a GT3 or M3 over the GT-R based on that alone. GT-R puts out some amazing numbers but it seems as if its boring.

This is the main reason I want Acura to go the RWD platform route so that the car will "talk to you" if you will. BMWs have that tactile, focused feel. We all know Hondas FR/MR cars (NSX/S2000) have that same feel also. No SH-AWD was needed and these were some of the best handling cars of thier time.

Im not saying throw the SH-AWD out the window, leave it as an option as its not NEEDED (current RL) for handling purposes on a FR layout.



-Patrick
CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-15-2008 13:25
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Nate34 wrote:
NickDC5 wrote:
Theoretically the best AWD system should act as if it were RWD. So having SH-AWD with a rear bias would actually just be trying to make AWD more like RWD. Look at the newest version of the ATTESA-ETS for example. It is so good on the track because it acts like RWD. So why not just have RWD and cut out the middle man? Is putting a TINY bit of power to the outside front wheel really going to give a car that much of an advantage on corner exit? Of course not, especially considering additional weight and lag through a computer or mechanical system that determines how much power to send it.


The SH-AWD redirects power to the rear tires only when accelerating. Try fast cornerings and curves with a FR at high speeds, you'll get killed; SH-AWD feels like a train on tracks. Also SH-AWD is better with rain and Snowy conditions. So it is not just trying to be RWD, it's the best of both worlds, AWD and RWD imho. Weight and lag? you should try the RL, the SH-AWD system doesn't have any lag at all, and drives better than the GS350AWD, MB-E4 and BMW530xi





If the RL was a better driving car wouldnt it be the benchmark? BMW has introduced or will introduce a "torque vectoring" AWD system. With the superior FR layout and the AWD system it would still outscore the FF/AWD car because again of the better weight distribution of the FR layout.


As far as "lag" is concerned TOV mods and other publications have said that one has to push the current RL REALLY hard to see the benefits of the SH-AWD system. The 09 system seems to have been recalibrated to be more active sooner. We will have to see as Jeff has stated that TOV has requested a 09 RL for the press fleet.


Shawn Church TOV RL autocross video:

http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=424790


Quotes from Shawn from video:

"FWD derived vehicle with a heavy front weight bias"

"Hard right hander here......ahh, too much understeer there. I had to get out of the throttle there and thats not good."

I believe Shawns personal cars are a couple of S2000s and a G35 Coupe which are all RWD.



-Patrick



dohc89
Profile for dohc89
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-15-2008 15:29
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It does not matter how the chassis was designed. Take the '96-'98 TL. It's built on an "FWD" Accord chassis. Honda lengthened the front of the car. The wheelbase, and the length were "let out" accordingly. The transmission tunnel wasn't modified much to accomodate the intrusion. Altering the floor is not a problem as well. My RL's floor hump isn't any more intrusive than an Accord. We already know that the Accord uses a modified version of the RL's rear suspension, so basically it can remain as is. We all talk about how the prices are set to high fir the RL, if Honda designs a new chassis for the RL, it will go higher. I am not displeased with how my car performs, and it's amenities. I do wish I had the cooled seats that will now be offered on the '09, but I'm not unhappy. I know Honda can do it sensibly, but like everyone else, I hope they take us into consideration, and play the game, and not let it get played on them.
NickDC5
Profile for NickDC5
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-15-2008 16:02
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BMW's AWD system is NOT built for performance. It is awful from a performance standpoint. It does not ever perform as well as their vehicles in RWD. Do not think for a second BMW's current system for AWD is at all superior to any of the same model in RWD form.

Also I think you guys misinterpreted me. Like I said, the best AWD system acts like RWD. When you talk about how great it is that the RL sends more power to the rear around corners, no crap, that's where it's supposed to be. Power to the turning wheels is almost always a bad call, you're overloading their grip by putting accelerative power down through them when they're trying to accelerate in another direction in the first place. Again, the best AWD system acts like RWD, so why not just have RWD (this is only from a performance standpoint, from a practicality standpoint you might want a snow-goer instead of a corner-carver).
CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-15-2008 19:55
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NickDC5 wrote:
BMW's AWD system is NOT built for performance. It is awful from a performance standpoint. It does not ever perform as well as their vehicles in RWD. Do not think for a second BMW's current system for AWD is at all superior to any of the same model in RWD form.

Also I think you guys misinterpreted me. Like I said, the best AWD system acts like RWD. When you talk about how great it is that the RL sends more power to the rear around corners, no crap, that's where it's supposed to be. Power to the turning wheels is almost always a bad call, you're overloading their grip by putting accelerative power down through them when they're trying to accelerate in another direction in the first place. Again, the best AWD system acts like RWD, so why not just have RWD (this is only from a performance standpoint, from a practicality standpoint you might want a snow-goer instead of a corner-carver).




My post stated that BMW has introduced or will introduce a torque vectoring AWD system, meaning Im not sure if its debuted as of yet. I didnt say anything about it being performance oriented. It really doesnt need to be as their cars have nearly perfect weight distribution because AGAIN of tried and true naturally balanced FR layout. Again, a rear biased AWD system in a FWD platform configuration STILL DOESNT CHANGE the fact that the car will be nose heavy.

To the other poster.....If the approach of taking a FWD platform, significantly modifiying it to accept a RWD drivetrain was the best way to achieve optimum handling, steering/chassis feel and communication why didnt Infiniti, Nissan, Lexus, Cadillac, Honda, BMW, Corvette, G8, Mercedes and.....even...ahem... Hyundai use that same logic in building thier RWD cars? If Acura didnt already know that the FR layout was the best for handling purposes (MR is best but were speaking of sedans) we wouldnt be seeing this botched but actually attractive RWD RL test mule.

Foul weather must always be considered but one has to use logic and realize that all areas dont get snow fall. I live in central Ky and we get maybe....2 - 3 inches max a couple times a year. Acura should have RWD as standard and offer the AWD system for the folks who need/want it. Its that simple.




-Patrick



P.S. Less compromise = better car.
Nate34
Profile for Nate34
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-15-2008 21:41
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CivicB18 wrote:
NickDC5 wrote:
BMW's AWD system is NOT built for performance. It is awful from a performance standpoint. It does not ever perform as well as their vehicles in RWD. Do not think for a second BMW's current system for AWD is at all superior to any of the same model in RWD form.

Also I think you guys misinterpreted me. Like I said, the best AWD system acts like RWD. When you talk about how great it is that the RL sends more power to the rear around corners, no crap, that's where it's supposed to be. Power to the turning wheels is almost always a bad call, you're overloading their grip by putting accelerative power down through them when they're trying to accelerate in another direction in the first place. Again, the best AWD system acts like RWD, so why not just have RWD (this is only from a performance standpoint, from a practicality standpoint you might want a snow-goer instead of a corner-carver).




My post stated that BMW has introduced or will introduce a torque vectoring AWD system, meaning Im not sure if its debuted as of yet. I didnt say anything about it being performance oriented. It really doesnt need to be as their cars have nearly perfect weight distribution because AGAIN of tried and true naturally balanced FR layout. Again, a rear biased AWD system in a FWD platform configuration STILL DOESNT CHANGE the fact that the car will be nose heavy.

To the other poster.....If the approach of taking a FWD platform, significantly modifiying it to accept a RWD drivetrain was the best way to achieve optimum handling, steering/chassis feel and communication why didnt Infiniti, Nissan, Lexus, Cadillac, Honda, BMW, Corvette, G8, Mercedes and.....even...ahem... Hyundai use that same logic in building thier RWD cars? If Acura didnt already know that the FR layout was the best for handling purposes (MR is best but were speaking of sedans) we wouldnt be seeing this botched but actually attractive RWD RL test mule.

Foul weather must always be considered but one has to use logic and realize that all areas dont get snow fall. I live in central Ky and we get maybe....2 - 3 inches max a couple times a year. Acura should have RWD as standard and offer the AWD system for the folks who need/want it. Its that simple.




-Patrick

P.S. Less compromise = better car.



You talk as if we all are professional track drivers, so a RWD will shave off 0.5 secs when commuting to work? wow! i'm impressed. I'm not denying the fact that on a dry track a FR will make car journalists (and badge whores) wet; however for 99% of us drivers, a SH-AWD is much more practical, fun and safe. I've seen several BMW's stuck in the snow last winter, very pathetic while little civics roam by at 60mph..
Now everybody else is copying SH-AWD, because of its dynamic advantages in real life..and you think somebody who buys a 50K sedan cares about how good it performs on the track? Its just people like you and the sold out media that makes such a buzz about big engines and RWD..


CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2008 12:16
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Nate34 wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
NickDC5 wrote:
BMW's AWD system is NOT built for performance. It is awful from a performance standpoint. It does not ever perform as well as their vehicles in RWD. Do not think for a second BMW's current system for AWD is at all superior to any of the same model in RWD form.

Also I think you guys misinterpreted me. Like I said, the best AWD system acts like RWD. When you talk about how great it is that the RL sends more power to the rear around corners, no crap, that's where it's supposed to be. Power to the turning wheels is almost always a bad call, you're overloading their grip by putting accelerative power down through them when they're trying to accelerate in another direction in the first place. Again, the best AWD system acts like RWD, so why not just have RWD (this is only from a performance standpoint, from a practicality standpoint you might want a snow-goer instead of a corner-carver).




My post stated that BMW has introduced or will introduce a torque vectoring AWD system, meaning Im not sure if its debuted as of yet. I didnt say anything about it being performance oriented. It really doesnt need to be as their cars have nearly perfect weight distribution because AGAIN of tried and true naturally balanced FR layout. Again, a rear biased AWD system in a FWD platform configuration STILL DOESNT CHANGE the fact that the car will be nose heavy.

To the other poster.....If the approach of taking a FWD platform, significantly modifiying it to accept a RWD drivetrain was the best way to achieve optimum handling, steering/chassis feel and communication why didnt Infiniti, Nissan, Lexus, Cadillac, Honda, BMW, Corvette, G8, Mercedes and.....even...ahem... Hyundai use that same logic in building thier RWD cars? If Acura didnt already know that the FR layout was the best for handling purposes (MR is best but were speaking of sedans) we wouldnt be seeing this botched but actually attractive RWD RL test mule.

Foul weather must always be considered but one has to use logic and realize that all areas dont get snow fall. I live in central Ky and we get maybe....2 - 3 inches max a couple times a year. Acura should have RWD as standard and offer the AWD system for the folks who need/want it. Its that simple.




-Patrick

P.S. Less compromise = better car.



You talk as if we all are professional track drivers, so a RWD will shave off 0.5 secs when commuting to work? wow! i'm impressed. I'm not denying the fact that on a dry track a FR will make car journalists (and badge whores) wet; however for 99% of us drivers, a SH-AWD is much more practical, fun and safe. I've seen several BMW's stuck in the snow last winter, very pathetic while little civics roam by at 60mph..
Now everybody else is copying SH-AWD, because of its dynamic advantages in real life..and you think somebody who buys a 50K sedan cares about how good it performs on the track? Its just people like you and the sold out media that makes such a buzz about big engines and RWD..





When did I give reference to track performance or large engines? My point is that a true FR layout will provide better results in performance, am I not correct? One doesn't have to be Ayrton Senna to appreciate a good well balanced chassis. Things like good steering feel, a communicative chassis and and positive overall feedback are appreciated in this segment, well to true enthusiasts like myself. I apologize for being a enthusiast.

I'm not sure if you were calling me a badge whore and I don't really care. Yes I like BMW not because of the badge. I respect that they don't compromise much when building a really competitive sport sedan. I respect their philosophy of making cars that have great and most of the time class leading driving dynamics using the good old fashioned naturally balanced FR layout. Ever driven a E46 M3? Awesome car.

If one lives in an area where foul weather is an issue BMW also offers an AWD system as as option. Anything can get stuck and driver skill, attention and caution (or lack there of) plays a large roll here. Is this another excuse for Acura not to make FR platforms?

Although I do like Acura (I own a 2003 CL-S 6MT) and certainly know the potential is there how can they claim to be a performance driven company when currently their most competitive vehicle is an SUV (MDX) ?

I'm not saying that Acura should follow BMW. What I'm trying to get across to some of you is if Acura truly wants to become a world class performance/luxury car manufacturer with that "ever so special" tier 1 status they will have to provide beyond whats expected.

Just think If Acura provided their current positive attributes like reliability, durability, low cost of ownership, low maintenance, high resale value, ETC ETC while adding and or providing world class construction, world class technology, much better dealer service and consistent benchmark top of the class performance and efficiency. That would be a lethal combination as no other performance/luxury mark offers all those qualities under one badge. This could be Acuras future and a successful one at that.



-Patrick





NickDC5
Profile for NickDC5
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2008 13:58
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I think you hit the nail on the head. I was thinking about it earlier today, and I want Acura to make sport sedans, not luxury sedans, cars that are true to what Honda really is. Acura should be making cars that DO get that extra .5 seconds around the track, that's what makes them fun, respectable, recognized as being sporty, not boats. Acura's been headed toward being Japanese Buick, not Japanese BMW. Which would you guys prefer? I'll take the sportier one, and if Acura wants to make a safety net car for the bad-weather-first drivers, then so be it. It seems that sport sedans connote luxury more so than big floaty barges with wheels and gadgets.

I know Honda has what it takes to make an incredible FR sedan, so why not let Honda make an M3/5 killer first, then an AWD safety net car for the masses second that can sell on the credit of the first?
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2008 14:03
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Nate34 wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
NickDC5 wrote:
BMW's AWD system is NOT built for performance. It is awful from a performance standpoint. It does not ever perform as well as their vehicles in RWD. Do not think for a second BMW's current system for AWD is at all superior to any of the same model in RWD form.

Also I think you guys misinterpreted me. Like I said, the best AWD system acts like RWD. When you talk about how great it is that the RL sends more power to the rear around corners, no crap, that's where it's supposed to be. Power to the turning wheels is almost always a bad call, you're overloading their grip by putting accelerative power down through them when they're trying to accelerate in another direction in the first place. Again, the best AWD system acts like RWD, so why not just have RWD (this is only from a performance standpoint, from a practicality standpoint you might want a snow-goer instead of a corner-carver).




My post stated that BMW has introduced or will introduce a torque vectoring AWD system, meaning Im not sure if its debuted as of yet. I didnt say anything about it being performance oriented. It really doesnt need to be as their cars have nearly perfect weight distribution because AGAIN of tried and true naturally balanced FR layout. Again, a rear biased AWD system in a FWD platform configuration STILL DOESNT CHANGE the fact that the car will be nose heavy.

To the other poster.....If the approach of taking a FWD platform, significantly modifiying it to accept a RWD drivetrain was the best way to achieve optimum handling, steering/chassis feel and communication why didnt Infiniti, Nissan, Lexus, Cadillac, Honda, BMW, Corvette, G8, Mercedes and.....even...ahem... Hyundai use that same logic in building thier RWD cars? If Acura didnt already know that the FR layout was the best for handling purposes (MR is best but were speaking of sedans) we wouldnt be seeing this botched but actually attractive RWD RL test mule.

Foul weather must always be considered but one has to use logic and realize that all areas dont get snow fall. I live in central Ky and we get maybe....2 - 3 inches max a couple times a year. Acura should have RWD as standard and offer the AWD system for the folks who need/want it. Its that simple.




-Patrick

P.S. Less compromise = better car.



You talk as if we all are professional track drivers, so a RWD will shave off 0.5 secs when commuting to work? wow! i'm impressed. I'm not denying the fact that on a dry track a FR will make car journalists (and badge whores) wet; however for 99% of us drivers, a SH-AWD is much more practical, fun and safe. I've seen several BMW's stuck in the snow last winter, very pathetic while little civics roam by at 60mph..
Now everybody else is copying SH-AWD, because of its dynamic advantages in real life..and you think somebody who buys a 50K sedan cares about how good it performs on the track? Its just people like you and the sold out media that makes such a buzz about big engines and RWD..





But that's part of the problem of SH-AWD as it has been implemented to date. Apart from SH-AWD's "real life" advantages in terms of foul weather traction, given the way Acura has configured their current SH-AWD vehicles, the only place you would really have a chance to sample the real "fun" side of SH-AWD is on a race track. On a race track you can really exploit the system's ability to affect the yaw of the vehicle - and it's on the race track where the system really shows its phenomenal abilities. The speeds that are necessary to really experience its abilities are unsafe for public roads, however. At an aggressive, spirited pace on the street, the understeer grinds the fun out of driving the RDX and RL. The MDX feels a bit more balanced but its weight and modest tires ultimately limit the fun. I am still waiting for Acura to realize the dynamic benefits of SH-AWD - yes it's currently a little bit better than the feel of an overpowered fwd car, but it's not nearly as good in terms of feel as a good FF or FR car. Hopefully the '09 RL updates will deliver on the promised improvements. Otherwise, it's dynamically inferior to FR (for normal street use), heavier, and more costly.
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2008 14:54
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Jeff wrote:
Nate34 wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
NickDC5 wrote:
BMW's AWD system is NOT built for performance. It is awful from a performance standpoint. It does not ever perform as well as their vehicles in RWD. Do not think for a second BMW's current system for AWD is at all superior to any of the same model in RWD form.

Also I think you guys misinterpreted me. Like I said, the best AWD system acts like RWD. When you talk about how great it is that the RL sends more power to the rear around corners, no crap, that's where it's supposed to be. Power to the turning wheels is almost always a bad call, you're overloading their grip by putting accelerative power down through them when they're trying to accelerate in another direction in the first place. Again, the best AWD system acts like RWD, so why not just have RWD (this is only from a performance standpoint, from a practicality standpoint you might want a snow-goer instead of a corner-carver).




My post stated that BMW has introduced or will introduce a torque vectoring AWD system, meaning Im not sure if its debuted as of yet. I didnt say anything about it being performance oriented. It really doesnt need to be as their cars have nearly perfect weight distribution because AGAIN of tried and true naturally balanced FR layout. Again, a rear biased AWD system in a FWD platform configuration STILL DOESNT CHANGE the fact that the car will be nose heavy.

To the other poster.....If the approach of taking a FWD platform, significantly modifiying it to accept a RWD drivetrain was the best way to achieve optimum handling, steering/chassis feel and communication why didnt Infiniti, Nissan, Lexus, Cadillac, Honda, BMW, Corvette, G8, Mercedes and.....even...ahem... Hyundai use that same logic in building thier RWD cars? If Acura didnt already know that the FR layout was the best for handling purposes (MR is best but were speaking of sedans) we wouldnt be seeing this botched but actually attractive RWD RL test mule.

Foul weather must always be considered but one has to use logic and realize that all areas dont get snow fall. I live in central Ky and we get maybe....2 - 3 inches max a couple times a year. Acura should have RWD as standard and offer the AWD system for the folks who need/want it. Its that simple.




-Patrick

P.S. Less compromise = better car.



You talk as if we all are professional track drivers, so a RWD will shave off 0.5 secs when commuting to work? wow! i'm impressed. I'm not denying the fact that on a dry track a FR will make car journalists (and badge whores) wet; however for 99% of us drivers, a SH-AWD is much more practical, fun and safe. I've seen several BMW's stuck in the snow last winter, very pathetic while little civics roam by at 60mph..
Now everybody else is copying SH-AWD, because of its dynamic advantages in real life..and you think somebody who buys a 50K sedan cares about how good it performs on the track? Its just people like you and the sold out media that makes such a buzz about big engines and RWD..





But that's part of the problem of SH-AWD as it has been implemented to date. Apart from SH-AWD's "real life" advantages in terms of foul weather traction, given the way Acura has configured their current SH-AWD vehicles, the only place you would really have a chance to sample the real "fun" side of SH-AWD is on a race track. On a race track you can really exploit the system's ability to affect the yaw of the vehicle - and it's on the race track where the system really shows its phenomenal abilities. The speeds that are necessary to really experience its abilities are unsafe for public roads, however. At an aggressive, spirited pace on the street, the understeer grinds the fun out of driving the RDX and RL. The MDX feels a bit more balanced but its weight and modest tires ultimately limit the fun. I am still waiting for Acura to realize the dynamic benefits of SH-AWD - yes it's currently a little bit better than the feel of an overpowered fwd car, but it's not nearly as good in terms of feel as a good FF or FR car. Hopefully the '09 RL updates will deliver on the promised improvements. Otherwise, it's dynamically inferior to FR (for normal street use), heavier, and more costly.



Mostly, because the engine's in the wrong place. Takes a lot of torque vectoring to get round that.

Also, too much tailwardness scares numpties, as Honda found out with the S2000.

For those of us living in miserable drizzle, SH-AWD sounds very exciting. I've yet to experience it since loan Rlegendos are hard to come by.



JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2008 15:04
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dohc89 wrote:
It does not matter how the chassis was designed. Take the '96-'98 TL. It's built on an "FWD" Accord chassis. Honda lengthened the front of the car. The wheelbase, and the length were "let out" accordingly. The transmission tunnel wasn't modified much to accomodate the intrusion. Altering the floor is not a problem as well. My RL's floor hump isn't any more intrusive than an Accord. We already know that the Accord uses a modified version of the RL's rear suspension, so basically it can remain as is. We all talk about how the prices are set to high fir the RL, if Honda designs a new chassis for the RL, it will go higher. I am not displeased with how my car performs, and it's amenities. I do wish I had the cooled seats that will now be offered on the '09, but I'm not unhappy. I know Honda can do it sensibly, but like everyone else, I hope they take us into consideration, and play the game, and not let it get played on them.


I think the complaints about the RL are due to the fact that from a psychological standpoint it's tough to justify its price premium, with so much similarity to the Accord. So psychologically, people can't come to grips with why it would cost roughly 2.5 times more than a base Accord. Take away the commonalities, and there's no basis for how much is too much, at least from a psychological, relative standpoint.
CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2008 17:32
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It looks as if BMW/ZF beat Acura to the punch with their own FR based torque vectoring AWD type system. *sigh*


http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/160


-Patrick
sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2008 19:24
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Jeff wrote:

But that's part of the problem of SH-AWD as it has been implemented to date. Apart from SH-AWD's "real life" advantages in terms of foul weather traction, given the way Acura has configured their current SH-AWD vehicles, the only place you would really have a chance to sample the real "fun" side of SH-AWD is on a race track. On a race track you can really exploit the system's ability to affect the yaw of the vehicle - and it's on the race track where the system really shows its phenomenal abilities. The speeds that are necessary to really experience its abilities are unsafe for public roads, however. At an aggressive, spirited pace on the street, the understeer grinds the fun out of driving the RDX and RL. The MDX feels a bit more balanced but its weight and modest tires ultimately limit the fun. I am still waiting for Acura to realize the dynamic benefits of SH-AWD - yes it's currently a little bit better than the feel of an overpowered fwd car, but it's not nearly as good in terms of feel as a good FF or FR car. Hopefully the '09 RL updates will deliver on the promised improvements. Otherwise, it's dynamically inferior to FR (for normal street use), heavier, and more costly.



Which brings me back to my point Jeff, the way the RL handles was a marketing decision Acura made, not the inherent balance of the vehicle!

As we have discussed in the past, the Legend's balance is quite remarkable for a largish luxury sedan. This was achieved with a small sacrifice of ride compliance and the specification of Advan Sport tyres. Fettled this way, there is only one area where it would suffer in comparison with a FR sedan, and that is in tight roundabout, or small radius constant turn manourvers. In every other dry weather handling situation it handles as well as any comparable FR sedan I've driven. In the wet, no contest. And you don't have to be on the race track to gain the full advantage.

Now what percentage of drivers will actually apreciate this difference? Not many at all. Why did Acura decide on this strategy, it would be interesting to know. Obviously they got it wrong,
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-17-2008 08:58
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From my understanding, Honda got it about spot-on, chassis-wise.

Because they were expanding in other areas, they couldn't risk an expensive, one-off platform for their slow-selling big car. Thus they stretched the transverse-engined Accord, to test SH-AWD, which they could then apply to the other spin-offs. Very sensible. The compact dimensions also help handling, of course.

Where they went wrong was not understanding how far from the mark a stretched Accord would look, in a terribly vain market sector. But Honda has never really quite got that segment. Maybe with a more bespoke Acura team, they will.

Nate34
Profile for Nate34
Re: The RL Is Not Gonna Go From AWD To RWD! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-17-2008 12:05
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Jeff wrote:
Nate34 wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
NickDC5 wrote:
BMW's AWD system is NOT built for performance. It is awful from a performance standpoint. It does not ever perform as well as their vehicles in RWD. Do not think for a second BMW's current system for AWD is at all superior to any of the same model in RWD form.

Also I think you guys misinterpreted me. Like I said, the best AWD system acts like RWD. When you talk about how great it is that the RL sends more power to the rear around corners, no crap, that's where it's supposed to be. Power to the turning wheels is almost always a bad call, you're overloading their grip by putting accelerative power down through them when they're trying to accelerate in another direction in the first place. Again, the best AWD system acts like RWD, so why not just have RWD (this is only from a performance standpoint, from a practicality standpoint you might want a snow-goer instead of a corner-carver).




My post stated that BMW has introduced or will introduce a torque vectoring AWD system, meaning Im not sure if its debuted as of yet. I didnt say anything about it being performance oriented. It really doesnt need to be as their cars have nearly perfect weight distribution because AGAIN of tried and true naturally balanced FR layout. Again, a rear biased AWD system in a FWD platform configuration STILL DOESNT CHANGE the fact that the car will be nose heavy.

To the other poster.....If the approach of taking a FWD platform, significantly modifiying it to accept a RWD drivetrain was the best way to achieve optimum handling, steering/chassis feel and communication why didnt Infiniti, Nissan, Lexus, Cadillac, Honda, BMW, Corvette, G8, Mercedes and.....even...ahem... Hyundai use that same logic in building thier RWD cars? If Acura didnt already know that the FR layout was the best for handling purposes (MR is best but were speaking of sedans) we wouldnt be seeing this botched but actually attractive RWD RL test mule.

Foul weather must always be considered but one has to use logic and realize that all areas dont get snow fall. I live in central Ky and we get maybe....2 - 3 inches max a couple times a year. Acura should have RWD as standard and offer the AWD system for the folks who need/want it. Its that simple.




-Patrick

P.S. Less compromise = better car.



You talk as if we all are professional track drivers, so a RWD will shave off 0.5 secs when commuting to work? wow! i'm impressed. I'm not denying the fact that on a dry track a FR will make car journalists (and badge whores) wet; however for 99% of us drivers, a SH-AWD is much more practical, fun and safe. I've seen several BMW's stuck in the snow last winter, very pathetic while little civics roam by at 60mph..
Now everybody else is copying SH-AWD, because of its dynamic advantages in real life..and you think somebody who buys a 50K sedan cares about how good it performs on the track? Its just people like you and the sold out media that makes such a buzz about big engines and RWD..





But that's part of the problem of SH-AWD as it has been implemented to date. Apart from SH-AWD's "real life" advantages in terms of foul weather traction, given the way Acura has configured their current SH-AWD vehicles, the only place you would really have a chance to sample the real "fun" side of SH-AWD is on a race track. On a race track you can really exploit the system's ability to affect the yaw of the vehicle - and it's on the race track where the system really shows its phenomenal abilities. The speeds that are necessary to really experience its abilities are unsafe for public roads, however. At an aggressive, spirited pace on the street, the understeer grinds the fun out of driving the RDX and RL. The MDX feels a bit more balanced but its weight and modest tires ultimately limit the fun. I am still waiting for Acura to realize the dynamic benefits of SH-AWD - yes it's currently a little bit better than the feel of an overpowered fwd car, but it's not nearly as good in terms of feel as a good FF or FR car. Hopefully the '09 RL updates will deliver on the promised improvements. Otherwise, it's dynamically inferior to FR (for normal street use), heavier, and more costly.



Understeer? In 3 years driving my RL I've never felt understeer,
to the contrary, taking corners fast is a blast and very fun, I would say. So you tell me what is most likely to happen on a daily basis: bad weather or racing in a professional track? So there you go, your high HP RWD "advantage" goes down the drain again.

 
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