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TOV Forums > Fit (and Jazz) > > Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?

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gibbs06
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1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 13:33
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I'm now wondering with gas prices here in the U.S. skyrocketing if American Honda will decide to bring over the 1.3 liter i-VTEC as the base engine for the all new 2nd gen Honda Fit? Since American Honda made it's initial announcement regarding the new Fit, gas and crude oil prices have gone up substantially and from what I can tell will continue to do so. The 1.3 liter engine might be an excellent choice if it gets considerably better gas mileage than the new 1.5 liter i-VTEC engine. Right now if you gave me a choice between more horsepower and better gas mileage I would without a doubt take better gas mileage!
93egsedan2
Profile for 93egsedan2
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 14:41
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I don't think it gets much better mileage. You get to a point of diminishing returns. Eventually the motor gets too small to move the vehicle efficiently and has to work harder than a bigger engine would have to. Your mileage could actually be worse. Depending on driving conditions.
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 14:51
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93egsedan wrote:
I don't think it gets much better mileage. You get to a point of diminishing returns. Eventually the motor gets too small to move the vehicle efficiently and has to work harder than a bigger engine would have to. Your mileage could actually be worse. Depending on driving conditions.

Haven't driven this 1.3L yet, but if it gets same fuel economy as the past gen 1.3L i-DSi as reported, that's way better than the 1.5L VTEC one for sure.

Well, sure it depends on driving conditions, and with a taller geared 1.5L I'm sure that high-speed highway driving wouldn't give the 1.3L much of an advantage. In the cities and at legal speeds though, there is quite a big difference in FE between both engines.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 14:57
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danielgr wrote:
93egsedan wrote:
I don't think it gets much better mileage. You get to a point of diminishing returns. Eventually the motor gets too small to move the vehicle efficiently and has to work harder than a bigger engine would have to. Your mileage could actually be worse. Depending on driving conditions.

Haven't driven this 1.3L yet, but if it gets same fuel economy as the past gen 1.3L i-DSi as reported, that's way better than the 1.5L VTEC one for sure.

Well, sure it depends on driving conditions, and with a taller geared 1.5L I'm sure that high-speed highway driving wouldn't give the 1.3L much of an advantage. In the cities and at legal speeds though, there is quite a big difference in FE between both engines.



in my "real world", I found it much easier to achieve higher average mpg numbers in the larger and heavier 1.8L civic than a 1.5L fit. Where the fit shines is if your traveling is confined largely to stop and go city driving with low average speeds. On the open road the 1.5L has to work pretty hard to keep the Fit moving with 75-80mph traffic, and FE takes a pretty good hit (delivering low 30's), whereas the Civic performs rather well at these speeds (easy 35mpg+). I think a 1.3L would probably be pretty effective in the right driving environment but I know that those environments are probably limited to downtown areas of really big cities in the USA or areas where the average speed on the freeways is well below 60mph.
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 16:05
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Jeff wrote:
danielgr wrote:
93egsedan wrote:
I don't think it gets much better mileage. You get to a point of diminishing returns. Eventually the motor gets too small to move the vehicle efficiently and has to work harder than a bigger engine would have to. Your mileage could actually be worse. Depending on driving conditions.

Haven't driven this 1.3L yet, but if it gets same fuel economy as the past gen 1.3L i-DSi as reported, that's way better than the 1.5L VTEC one for sure.

Well, sure it depends on driving conditions, and with a taller geared 1.5L I'm sure that high-speed highway driving wouldn't give the 1.3L much of an advantage. In the cities and at legal speeds though, there is quite a big difference in FE between both engines.



in my "real world", I found it much easier to achieve higher average mpg numbers in the larger and heavier 1.8L civic than a 1.5L fit. Where the fit shines is if your traveling is confined largely to stop and go city driving with low average speeds. On the open road the 1.5L has to work pretty hard to keep the Fit moving with 75-80mph traffic, and FE takes a pretty good hit (delivering low 30's), whereas the Civic performs rather well at these speeds (easy 35mpg+). I think a 1.3L would probably be pretty effective in the right driving environment but I know that those environments are probably limited to downtown areas of really big cities in the USA or areas where the average speed on the freeways is well below 60mph.


Well, in my real world FE conditions, I've been consistenly taking about 45mpg with a 1.2L Fit driving in the highway between at around 68 - 75mph... So that's not because of the engine size...

Just like the new Japanese one (intended only for "enthusiasts"), the US MT-Fit is geared way too short for highway FE... I've said it many times, but that's Honda's product manager's decision, not something inherent with the car/engine. Most likely they did it that way because they felt Americans would think the Fit is underpowered and rather give it a faster response than an even better FE (which is already quite good by NA standards).

Fit gearing
US 1.5L |EU 1.2L |EU 1.3L| US-Civic| New JDM 1.5L
1: 3.462 | 3,142 | 3,142 | 3.143 | 3.461
2: 1.870 | 1,750 | 1,750 | 1.870 | 1.869
3: 1.321 | 1,166 | 1,241 | 1.235 | 1.303
4: 0.970 | 0,857 | 0,969 | 0.949 | 1.054
5: 0.757 | 0,710 | 0,805 | 0.727 | 0.853
F: 4.290 | 4,294 | 4,111 | 4.294 | 4.294

As you may notice here, despite having way less power, the European 1.2L Fit has taller gears through the whole 5 speeds than the US 1.5L, and including the 5th one.
Those numbers also explain why the new JDM 5MT Fit gets such a horrible FE rating over there...

When compared with the Civic, not only the Civic engine has a special VTEC version to reduce pumping loses while cruising, it also has a taller 5th gear. No wonder why it gets better FE than its smaller sibling on the highway (where weight isn't so much of a penalty).

Still, the European Fit i-DSi engines are capable of impressive real world FE with proper gearing, and the new 1.3L VTEC unit matches those numbers on paper (it remains to be seen what happens in real life though).

3stageD15B
Profile for 3stageD15B
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 16:08
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Hi Jeff,

It surprises me that the Fit would have "to work pretty hard moving with 75-80mph traffic". Is this related to a combination of aerodynamic drag plus unfavourable gearing (re: high RPM) at such speeds? I have read that the Fit 5-sp auto revs about 2300 RPM@ 60mph whereas the Fit 5-sp MT revs @ 3000 RPM! at that speed. No wonder the Fit MT gets relatively poor fuel economy at those speeds! If the 2300 RPM figure is optimal for the Fit auto at 60MPH, then why wouldn't Honda strive for a similar 5th gear ratio with the Fit MT to optimize fuel economy? Is it so they can advertise better highway mileage and extol the virtues of the more expensive auto?

My previous 1988 Civic DX 1.5L hatch drove easily at 75-80mph and consistently returned 50 mpg (imperial) doing it. And it weighed about 2200lbs, so only about 200lbs less than the current Fit.
gibbs06
Profile for gibbs06
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 16:19
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I wonder what type of fuel economy ratings the new 2nd gen Fit with 1.5 liter engine and 5 speed automatic will get here in the U.S.? Hopefully it will exceed the Civic's mpg rating.

The all new Fit in Japan is selling like crazy. I read recently that Honda only expected to sell 12,000 the first month when it debuted late last October and immediately got orders for 22,000. It toppled the Corolla as the #1 best selling car in Japan last year as well as being Japan Car of the Year for the 2008 model year. The Fit has a remarkably HUGE following globally.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 16:34
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danielgr wrote:
Jeff wrote:
danielgr wrote:
93egsedan wrote:
I don't think it gets much better mileage. You get to a point of diminishing returns. Eventually the motor gets too small to move the vehicle efficiently and has to work harder than a bigger engine would have to. Your mileage could actually be worse. Depending on driving conditions.

Haven't driven this 1.3L yet, but if it gets same fuel economy as the past gen 1.3L i-DSi as reported, that's way better than the 1.5L VTEC one for sure.

Well, sure it depends on driving conditions, and with a taller geared 1.5L I'm sure that high-speed highway driving wouldn't give the 1.3L much of an advantage. In the cities and at legal speeds though, there is quite a big difference in FE between both engines.



in my "real world", I found it much easier to achieve higher average mpg numbers in the larger and heavier 1.8L civic than a 1.5L fit. Where the fit shines is if your traveling is confined largely to stop and go city driving with low average speeds. On the open road the 1.5L has to work pretty hard to keep the Fit moving with 75-80mph traffic, and FE takes a pretty good hit (delivering low 30's), whereas the Civic performs rather well at these speeds (easy 35mpg+). I think a 1.3L would probably be pretty effective in the right driving environment but I know that those environments are probably limited to downtown areas of really big cities in the USA or areas where the average speed on the freeways is well below 60mph.


Well, in my real world FE conditions, I've been consistenly taking about 45mpg with a 1.2L Fit driving in the highway between at around 68 - 75mph... So that's not because of the engine size...

Just like the new Japanese one (intended only for "enthusiasts"), the US MT-Fit is geared way too short for highway FE... I've said it many times, but that's Honda's product manager's decision, not something inherent with the car/engine. Most likely they did it that way because they felt Americans would think the Fit is underpowered and rather give it a faster response than an even better FE (which is already quite good by NA standards).

Fit gearing
US 1.5L |EU 1.2L |EU 1.3L| US-Civic| New JDM 1.5L
1: 3.462 | 3,142 | 3,142 | 3.143 | 3.461
2: 1.870 | 1,750 | 1,750 | 1.870 | 1.869
3: 1.321 | 1,166 | 1,241 | 1.235 | 1.303
4: 0.970 | 0,857 | 0,969 | 0.949 | 1.054
5: 0.757 | 0,710 | 0,805 | 0.727 | 0.853
F: 4.290 | 4,294 | 4,111 | 4.294 | 4.294

As you may notice here, despite having way less power, the European 1.2L Fit has taller gears through the whole 5 speeds than the US 1.5L, and including the 5th one.
Those numbers also explain why the new JDM 5MT Fit gets such a horrible FE rating over there...

When compared with the Civic, not only the Civic engine has a special VTEC version to reduce pumping loses while cruising, it also has a taller 5th gear. No wonder why it gets better FE than its smaller sibling on the highway (where weight isn't so much of a penalty).

Still, the European Fit i-DSi engines are capable of impressive real world FE with proper gearing, and the new 1.3L VTEC unit matches those numbers on paper (it remains to be seen what happens in real life though).





well, the 5-speed automatic 1.5L Fit performed slightly worse in terms of FE in the same conditions with much taller effective gearing. The problem was that if you set the cruise on 75mph it would have to downshift frequently to maintain speed on the typical freeways here. 75mph in 5th equates to roughly 2600rpms in the 5AT and 3600rpms in the 5MT. On level roads, I think that would mean a pretty good advantage in terms of fuel economy, but the roads in our area are almost never level and the poor 5AT Fit would routinely kick down to 4th gear (~3600rpms @ 75mph) and sometimes even 3rd gear (~5100rpms) to maintain speed. Around town the two were very close in terms of real world fuel economy.
Karl O.
Profile for Karl O.
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 16:35
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Honda could market a stripped down Fit with the 1.3L and appropriate transmission ratios and market it as the "Fit HF." That would be kind of cool.
Wizard
Profile for Wizard
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 16:47
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danielgr wrote:

Fit gearing
US 1.5L |EU 1.2L |EU 1.3L| US-Civic| New JDM 1.5L
1: 3.462 | 3,142 | 3,142 | 3.143 | 3.461
2: 1.870 | 1,750 | 1,750 | 1.870 | 1.869
3: 1.321 | 1,166 | 1,241 | 1.235 | 1.303
4: 0.970 | 0,857 | 0,969 | 0.949 | 1.054
5: 0.757 | 0,710 | 0,805 | 0.727 | 0.853
F: 4.290 | 4,294 | 4,111 | 4.294 | 4.294

As you may notice here, despite having way less power, the European 1.2L Fit has taller gears through the whole 5 speeds than the US 1.5L, and including the 5th one.
Those numbers also explain why the new JDM 5MT Fit gets such a horrible FE rating over there...


But, is the difference still valid after taking tire size into consideration?
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 17:07
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Jeff wrote:
well, the 5-speed automatic 1.5L Fit performed slightly worse in terms of FE in the same conditions with much taller effective gearing. The problem was that if you set the cruise on 75mph it would have to downshift frequently to maintain speed on the typical freeways here. 75mph in 5th equates to roughly 2600rpms in the 5AT and 3600rpms in the 5MT. On level roads, I think that would mean a pretty good advantage in terms of fuel economy, but the roads in our area are almost never level and the poor 5AT Fit would routinely kick down to 4th gear (~3600rpms @ 75mph) and sometimes even 3rd gear (~5100rpms) to maintain speed. Around town the two were very close in terms of real world fuel economy.

Sure, but AT trannies have greater loses, and it's difficult to compare them across different vehicles (even for Honda, not all of them are the same, or at least I don't know about it).
That said, in Europe there are not so many cars in this class with cruise control, and I've never tried a Fit with it.

The AT US Fit may have to downshift to keep those speeds on hills because its 5 gear is soooo tall (and the added tranny loses). But once it down-shifts, you are running even shorter gearing than the 5MT... Those crazily tall AT-gears are mainly there for gliding in the city and low-speed cruising, so that they catch up a bit with the more efficient MT's on FE (at least in EPA tests).

I sure don't floor the throttle nor downshift to 4th on the 1.2L to climb the hills at 75mph, and that's mainly the reason why I said 68-75mph range. If I had to take in account the steepest highway hills I would say 62-75mph.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 17:12
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Jeff wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Jeff wrote:
danielgr wrote:
93egsedan wrote:
I don't think it gets much better mileage. You get to a point of diminishing returns. Eventually the motor gets too small to move the vehicle efficiently and has to work harder than a bigger engine would have to. Your mileage could actually be worse. Depending on driving conditions.

Haven't driven this 1.3L yet, but if it gets same fuel economy as the past gen 1.3L i-DSi as reported, that's way better than the 1.5L VTEC one for sure.

Well, sure it depends on driving conditions, and with a taller geared 1.5L I'm sure that high-speed highway driving wouldn't give the 1.3L much of an advantage. In the cities and at legal speeds though, there is quite a big difference in FE between both engines.



in my "real world", I found it much easier to achieve higher average mpg numbers in the larger and heavier 1.8L civic than a 1.5L fit. Where the fit shines is if your traveling is confined largely to stop and go city driving with low average speeds. On the open road the 1.5L has to work pretty hard to keep the Fit moving with 75-80mph traffic, and FE takes a pretty good hit (delivering low 30's), whereas the Civic performs rather well at these speeds (easy 35mpg+). I think a 1.3L would probably be pretty effective in the right driving environment but I know that those environments are probably limited to downtown areas of really big cities in the USA or areas where the average speed on the freeways is well below 60mph.


Well, in my real world FE conditions, I've been consistenly taking about 45mpg with a 1.2L Fit driving in the highway between at around 68 - 75mph... So that's not because of the engine size...

Just like the new Japanese one (intended only for "enthusiasts"), the US MT-Fit is geared way too short for highway FE... I've said it many times, but that's Honda's product manager's decision, not something inherent with the car/engine. Most likely they did it that way because they felt Americans would think the Fit is underpowered and rather give it a faster response than an even better FE (which is already quite good by NA standards).

Fit gearing
US 1.5L |EU 1.2L |EU 1.3L| US-Civic| New JDM 1.5L
1: 3.462 | 3,142 | 3,142 | 3.143 | 3.461
2: 1.870 | 1,750 | 1,750 | 1.870 | 1.869
3: 1.321 | 1,166 | 1,241 | 1.235 | 1.303
4: 0.970 | 0,857 | 0,969 | 0.949 | 1.054
5: 0.757 | 0,710 | 0,805 | 0.727 | 0.853
F: 4.290 | 4,294 | 4,111 | 4.294 | 4.294

As you may notice here, despite having way less power, the European 1.2L Fit has taller gears through the whole 5 speeds than the US 1.5L, and including the 5th one.
Those numbers also explain why the new JDM 5MT Fit gets such a horrible FE rating over there...

When compared with the Civic, not only the Civic engine has a special VTEC version to reduce pumping loses while cruising, it also has a taller 5th gear. No wonder why it gets better FE than its smaller sibling on the highway (where weight isn't so much of a penalty).

Still, the European Fit i-DSi engines are capable of impressive real world FE with proper gearing, and the new 1.3L VTEC unit matches those numbers on paper (it remains to be seen what happens in real life though).





well, the 5-speed automatic 1.5L Fit performed slightly worse in terms of FE in the same conditions with much taller effective gearing. The problem was that if you set the cruise on 75mph it would have to downshift frequently to maintain speed on the typical freeways here. 75mph in 5th equates to roughly 2600rpms in the 5AT and 3600rpms in the 5MT. On level roads, I think that would mean a pretty good advantage in terms of fuel economy, but the roads in our area are almost never level and the poor 5AT Fit would routinely kick down to 4th gear (~3600rpms @ 75mph) and sometimes even 3rd gear (~5100rpms) to maintain speed. Around town the two were very close in terms of real world fuel economy.



by the way, if anybody's interested, here's a screendump of spreadsheet where I ran the numbers for the gearing.

i will add the other models if people can get me the proper tire sizes and revs/mile figures for them.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 17:19
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Wizard wrote:
danielgr wrote:

Fit gearing
US 1.5L |EU 1.2L |EU 1.3L| US-Civic| New JDM 1.5L
1: 3.462 | 3,142 | 3,142 | 3.143 | 3.461
2: 1.870 | 1,750 | 1,750 | 1.870 | 1.869
3: 1.321 | 1,166 | 1,241 | 1.235 | 1.303
4: 0.970 | 0,857 | 0,969 | 0.949 | 1.054
5: 0.757 | 0,710 | 0,805 | 0.727 | 0.853
F: 4.290 | 4,294 | 4,111 | 4.294 | 4.294

As you may notice here, despite having way less power, the European 1.2L Fit has taller gears through the whole 5 speeds than the US 1.5L, and including the 5th one.
Those numbers also explain why the new JDM 5MT Fit gets such a horrible FE rating over there...


But, is the difference still valid after taking tire size into consideration?

- The European 1.2L Civic uses the same tires 175/65 R14 as the regular USDM Fit.
- The 1.3L Sport version has also same diameter as the US 1.5L Sport (185/55 R15 vs. 195/55 R15).
- The Japanese Fit has larger 55 R16.
- Of course, the Civic has the bigger wheels at 65/R15.
Wizard
Profile for Wizard
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 17:28
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danielgr wrote:
Wizard wrote:
danielgr wrote:

Fit gearing
US 1.5L |EU 1.2L |EU 1.3L| US-Civic| New JDM 1.5L
1: 3.462 | 3,142 | 3,142 | 3.143 | 3.461
2: 1.870 | 1,750 | 1,750 | 1.870 | 1.869
3: 1.321 | 1,166 | 1,241 | 1.235 | 1.303
4: 0.970 | 0,857 | 0,969 | 0.949 | 1.054
5: 0.757 | 0,710 | 0,805 | 0.727 | 0.853
F: 4.290 | 4,294 | 4,111 | 4.294 | 4.294

As you may notice here, despite having way less power, the European 1.2L Fit has taller gears through the whole 5 speeds than the US 1.5L, and including the 5th one.
Those numbers also explain why the new JDM 5MT Fit gets such a horrible FE rating over there...


But, is the difference still valid after taking tire size into consideration?

- The European 1.2L Civic uses the same tires 175/65 R14 as the regular USDM Fit.
- The 1.3L Sport version has also same diameter as the US 1.5L Sport (185/55 R15 vs. 195/55 R15).
- The Japanese Fit has larger 55 R16.
- Of course, the Civic has the bigger wheels at 65/R15.


Thanks!

Then it seems like Honda could have easily relaxed the top gear a little in US offering, but like someone said earlier, it could be to prevent the American folks into thinking "underpowered". May be that will change soon. If nowhere else, it surely will help bump up EPA ratings (which will make for an easier marketing).
gibbs06
Profile for gibbs06
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 17:50
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With ever escalating fuel prices Honda may want to rethink the gearing for the new Fit as some of you have alluded to and/or bring over the 1.3 liter i-VTEC engine as the new base engine. If they stick with the 1.5 liter i-VTEC as the only engine choice then fuel economy needs to increase compared to the 1st gen Fit. Honda has brilliant engineers...they need to get this figured out and do it quickly. FUEL ECONOMY IS PARAMOUNT RIGHT NOW, NOT MORE HORSEPOWER. Priorities need to be reshuffled.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 18:14
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gibbs06 wrote:
With ever escalating fuel prices Honda may want to rethink the gearing for the new Fit as some of you have alluded to and/or bring over the 1.3 liter i-VTEC engine as the new base engine. If they stick with the 1.5 liter i-VTEC as the only engine choice then fuel economy needs to increase compared to the 1st gen Fit. Honda has brilliant engineers...they need to get this figured out and do it quickly. FUEL ECONOMY IS PARAMOUNT RIGHT NOW, NOT MORE HORSEPOWER. Priorities need to be reshuffled.



I agree that FE is very important but horsepower isn't always the enemy of economy that some seem to equate it to be. As Honda has proven, horsepower can be a pleasant byproduct of a more efficient engine, particularly when the engine gains horsepower but retains displacement (see 200hp J30 in 2002 Accord V6 vs 240hp J30 in 2003 Accord V6). The problem comes when engineers take the easy route and just add displacement or forced induction.
cforez
Profile for cforez
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 18:54
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Jeff wrote:

I agree that FE is very important but horsepower isn't always the enemy of economy that some seem to equate it to be. As Honda has proven, horsepower can be a pleasant byproduct of a more efficient engine, particularly when the engine gains horsepower but retains displacement (see 200hp J30 in 2002 Accord V6 vs 240hp J30 in 2003 Accord V6). The problem comes when engineers take the easy route and just add displacement or forced induction.



It's funny, my 2006 Accord V6 gets about 3mpg city/6mpg highway better than my 2000 Accord V6, despite having more than a 40 hp increase. The 5AT is definitely responsible for part of the difference, though.
gibbs06
Profile for gibbs06
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 19:24
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Jeff wrote:
gibbs06 wrote:
With ever escalating fuel prices Honda may want to rethink the gearing for the new Fit as some of you have alluded to and/or bring over the 1.3 liter i-VTEC engine as the new base engine. If they stick with the 1.5 liter i-VTEC as the only engine choice then fuel economy needs to increase compared to the 1st gen Fit. Honda has brilliant engineers...they need to get this figured out and do it quickly. FUEL ECONOMY IS PARAMOUNT RIGHT NOW, NOT MORE HORSEPOWER. Priorities need to be reshuffled.



I agree that FE is very important but horsepower isn't always the enemy of economy that some seem to equate it to be. As Honda has proven, horsepower can be a pleasant byproduct of a more efficient engine, particularly when the engine gains horsepower but retains displacement (see 200hp J30 in 2002 Accord V6 vs 240hp J30 in 2003 Accord V6). The problem comes when engineers take the easy route and just add displacement or forced induction.



What explains people getting upwards of 50 mpg on mid 1990's Honda Civic DX's? One of the problems as I see it is cars that were once small have gotten too big and wayyyy to heavy...i.e. Honda Civic and Honda Accord. Why can't the U.S. get super fuel efficient cars like they do in Europe and other places? I keep hearing it's our highways/freeways here in the U.S...don't they have fast paced highways/freeways with hills in other country's? It seems like we're the only ones getting subpar fuel economy even on compact and subcompact cars. I'd love to see a Fit with fuel economy numbers of 40 city/55 hwy. It might help if they made it lighter. There's a Motortrend article that says the new Fiesta will start at 2,380lbs.
gibbs06
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Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 21:47
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It is my hope that Honda doesn't make the same mistake with the Fit that they've made with the Civic and Accord by making them larger and heavier with each redesign. The all new 2nd gen Fit looks perfect size wise and hopefully will remain that way for future redesigns.

WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-09-2008 23:08
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Jeff and guys,

All of you are forgetting the one crucial component that gives the Fit/Jazz its super fuel economy. And that is its CVT transmission. Throughout this thread, the main debate have always been centered around gear ratios. Drive on the highway, you need to drop a gear to maintain 75mph (120kph). You need shorter gearing to give the 1.3l engine enough 'oomph'. All these matters a lot less when you have a CVT gearbox. In my Jazz VTEC, I can maintain 90kph at 1900rpm. I can maintain 120kph just a bit over 2000rpm (2200 to 2300rpm if I remember correctly). If I need to increase speed, like going uphill, just give it a little more throttle. The gearbox doesn't drop a gear, it just increases the gear ratio just a little bit. RPM will go above 2500rpm for a short while and then its back down again. I seldom travel 120kph for highway though, for FE reasons, I go around 100kph on the highway which is much easier to maintain on Malaysian highway driving. And that means I am maintaining 2000rpm or less for the whole journey. Mileage can easily approach 20km/l (for that portion of the journey of course). The CVT's highest gear ratio is higher than the 1st gear of most AT. So it can generate good enough oomph for all practical purpose. But it's lowest gear ratio is as low as most cars with huge engines. So it really sips fuel at light throttle cruising. That is one of the crucial secrets to the 1.3l Fit/Jazz's superb FE.
gibbs06
Profile for gibbs06
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2008 00:49
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WongKN wrote:
Jeff and guys,

All of you are forgetting the one crucial component that gives the Fit/Jazz its super fuel economy. And that is its CVT transmission. Throughout this thread, the main debate have always been centered around gear ratios. Drive on the highway, you need to drop a gear to maintain 75mph (120kph). You need shorter gearing to give the 1.3l engine enough 'oomph'. All these matters a lot less when you have a CVT gearbox. In my Jazz VTEC, I can maintain 90kph at 1900rpm. I can maintain 120kph just a bit over 2000rpm (2200 to 2300rpm if I remember correctly). If I need to increase speed, like going uphill, just give it a little more throttle. The gearbox doesn't drop a gear, it just increases the gear ratio just a little bit. RPM will go above 2500rpm for a short while and then its back down again. I seldom travel 120kph for highway though, for FE reasons, I go around 100kph on the highway which is much easier to maintain on Malaysian highway driving. And that means I am maintaining 2000rpm or less for the whole journey. Mileage can easily approach 20km/l (for that portion of the journey of course). The CVT's highest gear ratio is higher than the 1st gear of most AT. So it can generate good enough oomph for all practical purpose. But it's lowest gear ratio is as low as most cars with huge engines. So it really sips fuel at light throttle cruising. That is one of the crucial secrets to the 1.3l Fit/Jazz's superb FE.



Thank you WongKN for sharing this. This might be a bit off subject but how has your Fit come along? How many miles do you have on it currently and what year is it? Do you still enjoy driving it? I believe you mentioned this before but I think you said your Fit was made in Singapore? Has your Fit held up well (does it still feel tight)?

Thank you for your valued input!


danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2008 03:05
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WongKN wrote:
Jeff and guys,

All of you are forgetting the one crucial component that gives the Fit/Jazz its super fuel economy. And that is its CVT transmission. Throughout this thread, the main debate have always been centered around gear ratios. Drive on the highway, you need to drop a gear to maintain 75mph (120kph). You need shorter gearing to give the 1.3l engine enough 'oomph'. All these matters a lot less when you have a CVT gearbox. In my Jazz VTEC, I can maintain 90kph at 1900rpm. I can maintain 120kph just a bit over 2000rpm (2200 to 2300rpm if I remember correctly). If I need to increase speed, like going uphill, just give it a little more throttle. The gearbox doesn't drop a gear, it just increases the gear ratio just a little bit. RPM will go above 2500rpm for a short while and then its back down again. I seldom travel 120kph for highway though, for FE reasons, I go around 100kph on the highway which is much easier to maintain on Malaysian highway driving. And that means I am maintaining 2000rpm or less for the whole journey. Mileage can easily approach 20km/l (for that portion of the journey of course). The CVT's highest gear ratio is higher than the 1st gear of most AT. So it can generate good enough oomph for all practical purpose. But it's lowest gear ratio is as low as most cars with huge engines. So it really sips fuel at light throttle cruising. That is one of the crucial secrets to the 1.3l Fit/Jazz's superb FE.


That's for sure true Wong, but I've never driven a Fit CVT (AT's are not popular in Europe, and it has only been available since mid-life in the 1.3L version), and people in the US don't have that option (and most likely wouldn't have it either if the 1.3L was coming to their country). So we were of course discussing of what we have.

Besides, it may have changed with the new Fit's tranny, but as for reported figures (I haven't tested it myself), although a big improvement on the regular AT's, it's still short on the FE of a regular MT (with European sensible gears, not with pocket-rocket ones...).
WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2008 03:21
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Actually Honda doesn't have a factory in Singapore. They don't even have an official office in Singapore and over there, Hondas are marketted by 'Kah Motors' which is an authorised distributor. They import the cars from Thailand or Japan.

My Fit (called the Jazz here) is manufactured in Japan. It was spec'ed for the Australian market and when Honda Malaysia launched the Jazz VTEC here, they took this unit. Then Honda started manufacturing of Jazz in Thailand and so all official Honda offices in ASEAN now takes their unit from Thailand.

My unit is approached 90,000km accumulated mileage. The car has been running fine but not completely trouble-free of course. I am not that lucky as well and I have even made warantty claims. It's when the oil price started ballooning recently that I am now extremely happy I made the change to the Jazz. For a while I have been rather lead-footed - part of growing old I guess, we do get impatient to get a move on when on the road. But with the Malaysian petrol price going up by 40% just last week, I am now disciplining myself to revert back to the days when I drive with fuel economy in mind.

One of these days I will upload the short .AVI file I have of the fuel consumption read-out on my Jazz VTEC. The onboard FC computer is not 100% accurate of course but it's a good indicator. I made that recording when I acheived the best mileage ever - 4.9l/100km over a journey exceeding 450km i.e. 20.5 km/l over >450km part of which involved being stuck in slow moving traffic (when going home and leaving home).
6SPDTL
Profile for 6SPDTL
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2008 09:58
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Back to the original question, as far as anybody knows there is no present plan to bring the 1.3 Fit here. In particular the 1.3 Fit is woefully underpowered whether CVT equipped or not (for NA tastes). With the 1.5 even consumer reports which, we are all aware, is not about "enthusiasm" commented that the auto version was particularly slow.
The 1.5 is probably thrifty enough for the US. Of course, if the market changes rapidly (and it is) to even more FE vehicles regardless of power maybe Honda will consider it.
Personally, the utter lack of foward motivation is what I hate about the civic hybrid, an even slower Fit would probably be an even greater disappointment. I really liked the manual fit however I wasn't so thrilled about the very pokey auto version.
gibbs06
Profile for gibbs06
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2008 11:54
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WongKN wrote:
Actually Honda doesn't have a factory in Singapore. They don't even have an official office in Singapore and over there, Hondas are marketted by 'Kah Motors' which is an authorised distributor. They import the cars from Thailand or Japan.

My Fit (called the Jazz here) is manufactured in Japan. It was spec'ed for the Australian market and when Honda Malaysia launched the Jazz VTEC here, they took this unit. Then Honda started manufacturing of Jazz in Thailand and so all official Honda offices in ASEAN now takes their unit from Thailand.

My unit is approached 90,000km accumulated mileage. The car has been running fine but not completely trouble-free of course. I am not that lucky as well and I have even made warantty claims. It's when the oil price started ballooning recently that I am now extremely happy I made the change to the Jazz. For a while I have been rather lead-footed - part of growing old I guess, we do get impatient to get a move on when on the road. But with the Malaysian petrol price going up by 40% just last week, I am now disciplining myself to revert back to the days when I drive with fuel economy in mind.

One of these days I will upload the short .AVI file I have of the fuel consumption read-out on my Jazz VTEC. The onboard FC computer is not 100% accurate of course but it's a good indicator. I made that recording when I acheived the best mileage ever - 4.9l/100km over a journey exceeding 450km i.e. 20.5 km/l over >450km part of which involved being stuck in slow moving traffic (when going home and leaving home).



WongKN...would like it very much if you would share some pics (interior and exterior) of your Jazz with us just to see how it looks after a lot of use and thousands of miles. By the way, I drive an 8th gen Civic sedan and I have disciplined my driving habits. I have a 16.5 mile freeway commute and never go over 62 mph. I generally stay between 55 - 59 mph. It's amazing how much petrol you can save just by simply slowing down. This would apply to the Fit/Jazz and any other car out their.
98civic
Profile for 98civic
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2008 14:54
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It might be relatively underpowered compared to everything else in the U.S. market but I'm still not convinced it wouldn't sell. A 5MT 1.3L Fit would probably be quicker off the line than a Civic hybrid and have better fuel economy than most any non-hybrid on the market (until VW's Rabbit/Jetta TDI's arrive). With a base price of $14K I think it would still be attractive to people who want an efficient car but don't want to spend $23K on a hybrid.
6SPDTL
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Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2008 17:06
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I agree, but only time will tell. In the 70's many cars routinely were in the 13 secs to 60 range 10 seconds was considered "fast". Maybe those times will come back. A lot of people are always dreaming about the glory late sixties and the supposedly fast cars of that era, the truth is a "family" honda accord v6 is faster than most v8 wonders of that period. Even the 4 cylinder Accord is faster than some 60's 8cylinder Hemi's!!!!
Karl O.
Profile for Karl O.
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2008 17:29
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I still find it amusing that my 2.0L S2000 is much faster than the IROC-Zs and Mustang GTs that I drooled over in high school.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2008 17:36
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Karl O. wrote:
I still find it amusing that my 2.0L S2000 is much faster than the IROC-Zs and Mustang GTs that I drooled over in high school.


So is a stock Civic Si...
HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: 1.3 i-VTEC in new Fit coming to U.S.?    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2008 23:54
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Jeff wrote:
Karl O. wrote:
I still find it amusing that my 2.0L S2000 is much faster than the IROC-Zs and Mustang GTs that I drooled over in high school.


So is a stock Civic Si...


I grew up in that era and I think I had one of the 1st sport compact cars built. 1983 Shelby Charger. I loved that car, all 110 HP. I would keep up with Vetts on off ramps, I remember the face on the guy getting off the HWY in his Vett at the stop light. He was "totaly" (little 80's lingo) embarrest my little $9,000 Dodge rode his rear bumper from 80mph to zero on a total circle.

It is hard to believe that a Trans Am in the 80's had only 180HP from a Smogged up V8, Oh those were the days.
 
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