WongKN
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I created this thread specifically for TOVA readers who might want to give their opinions on the March 12 2003 article on the JDM EK3 Civic Ferio Vi available at http://asia.vtec.net.
Best Regards,
WongKN
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Rick1
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Great article, I drive a VTi manual. On fuel consumption I average 17.5/ltr and top up every 600+km.
One thing that does bother me is that there are few 'add on' products for this car in Hong Kong.
Richard
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SilverStream
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VERY informative article ... however, you mentioned the D15B is a 3-stage-VTEC due to it's 2 solenoids.
I looked at my iVTEC engine, which claimed to have 12valve-16valve-wildcam (from one of the older TOVA article)... but it seems that there's only one solenoid available.
Is it due to different design ?
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WongKN
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17+ km/l, how on earth do you get this mileage ? Do you WOT the car often (what's the max rpm you reach daily) ? I find it tough to acheive 16-17km/l, usually getting it only on long distance outstation (out of town) journeys on highways/expressways. I guess my right foot is very itchy !! :-)
If you have the VTi that means the same engine-gearbox combo as my EK3 or is your manual ? If yours is the Multimatic, then the gearbox restricts you on any power upgrades - it's max power 'tolerance' is about 130ps which is the spec'ed power of the 3-stage VTEC D15B already. Any mods would be best on the suspension (reduce that body roll on tight cornering) and braking system (the stock one is actually very good already).
One Singapore TOVA reader with the VTi manual added an open element filter and HKS AFR to his car and got around 5% power increase (power at the wheels is ~115ps, manual gearboxes loses around 15% power). The JDM Vi Multimatics I have seen dyno'ed usually delivers around 99-100ps atw - extremely good result considering the Multimatic gearbox is effectively an autobox (auto EG8s dynoes 92ps atw only).
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WongKN
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Yes I agree that the K20A used on the CR-V/Stream has only 1 VTEC soleniod but is able to go 12V/16V mode PLUS wild cams mod as well. I wonder how they do it. This is why I wrote that the 3-stage D15B is unique is being probably the only Honda engine to have 2 VTEC soleniods. But the guide is meant to help readers differentiate between 3-stage VTEC D15B and other variants of the D15B (regular SOHC-VTEC as used on EG8, etc).
One thing that is different between the 3-stage VTEC D15B and the CR-V/Stream K20A is of course D15B is single cam (and thus the 3-stage implementation requires a complex rocker arm system) whereas the K20A is DOHC. Maybe that's where a single VTEC soleniod can be configured to control both 12V/16V mode as well as wildcam mod. Do not that the K20A is called DOHC iVTEC but -not- 3-stage VTEC. I guess this is one of those mysteries that cannot be answered easily.
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SilverStream
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WongKN, take a look at:
http://www.honda.co.jp/factbook/auto/INTEGRA/200107/07.html
There's a portion that mention Integra iS vs Integra TypeR.
I assume the CRV/Stream is similar setup as Integra iS, thus the diagram shows that the VTEC is engaged at a low of ONLY 2,200rpm !!! The 4,700rpm is engaging the Variable Intake System (VIS).
However, on the Type R, the VTEC is engaged at a high of 6000rpm...
Now, it makes me wonder if the K20A on the CRV/Stream actually has a wild cam ?
At this point, I can only make 2 assumptions:
1) 12v to 16v (VTEC-E) mode is switched at 2,200rpm and at 4,700rpm, when the VIS is activated, the wildcam is engaged.
(Having only 1 VTEC solenoid, how is the wildcam activated ?)
2) 12V to 16V (VTEC-E) mode is switched by ECU ... using VTC ??? But the logical switching point is 2,200rpm. Wildcam is engaged at 4,700rpm with VIS.
3) 12V to 16V (VTEC-E) mode is switched by ECU ... using VTC ??? (Lower rpm ?? unlikely) At 2,200rpm, higher-cam (not wildcam) is engaged ... 4,700rpm ONLY engage VIS. There is no wildcam ....
Really mind-boggling :-P
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Rick1
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Thanks for the reply, my car is a manual and I would say 70% of my driving is cruising at 80KM on the highway. I think the best I got was 19.5km/L but that was a one off normally 17.5/L. At 80 KM the car is ticking over at 2000 rpm and 2550 rpm at 100 KM. By the way my foot is not too itchy but I like to take the revs to the red line a couple of times a week.
I fitted a DTM filter to the standard box which seems to help the performance but plan to do some work on the car next year once the HP has been paid off. I checked the filter system that takes the air from the lower part of the engine bay and as I heard the HKS AFR does not help the car?s performance at lower revs I never bothered to change.
If your friend got a extra 5% I will reconsider, thanks for the advice.
Regards
Richard
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WongKN
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SilverStream,
Sorry for the late response, I wanted to do some research first.
Take a look at our TOVA article on the K20A engine (available under the "short articles" section, click on the icon with the picture of an magazine article). That article explains the iVTEC mechanism as implemented on the Stream's (and probably CR-V's) K20A and solves the whole mystery.
1 VTEC solenoid is used on the Stream/CRV K20A because there's only 1 VTEC point. The K20A operates in either 12V mild cams mode or 16V wild cams mode. There is no 16V mild cams mode. So, either the normal set of cam lobe/rocker arms are running on the intake (and one of the set is "mostly resting") or VTEC engages the middle lobe/rocker arm set for 16V mode. VTEC is implemented on the intake cams only.
Best Regards,
WongKN
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SilverStream
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Hi WongKN,
I did spend the weekend trying to figure out further and yes .. now I got a much clearer picture... I misread part of it that the iVTEC is as innoative as the 3-stage D15B and B16A/B ... thus not implying iVTEC is a 3stage VTEC setup :-P
Sorry for messing it up....
Another question:
For the VTEC point ... the 16V is midcam or wildcam ? Switching to 16V wildcam at 2200rpm is a bit too low rite ?
Thanks
Silverstream
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WongKN
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SilverStream,
There is no real rules governing the VTEC point. It's a function of the design of the engine as well as the individual profiles of the 'mild' and 'wild' cam lobes. My guess it that for the Stream's K20A, the mild lobe is really optimised for 12V, for economy while the wild lobe is optimized for a very wide rpm band with good power all across. This is the reason why the low VTEC point - because the 12V cam profile cannot function as well as the 16V 'wild' profile after ~2200rpm. In this sense, 'wild' is relative and it certainly won't be in the league as engines like B16A, B18C, etc.
Best Regards,
WongKN
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SilverStream
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Somehow the message I posted didn't appear .. anyway, I will try to re-construct :-)
Yes, you're right abt the VTEC point.
Over the weekend, I hooked up a LED to the ECU pinout for the VTEC solenoid and had been monitoring it.
The 2,200rpm is acutally just estimate ... the VTEC engagement point range from 2000rpm to 3000rpm ..
And a lot depends on the amoun of throttle I step.
(My driving pattern is normal driving, not aggreesive driving)
E.g. going up slope or pick up from stop, the VTEC is engaged early at slightly above 2000rpm ..
Immediately when it reaches optimum speed, the VTEC is disengaged.
However, on highway, it runs in a very optimum manner that the VTEC is not even engaged when I am at 120km/h (2500rpm) or sometimes 3000rpm !!!!! (Based on constant acceleration)
Only a sudden jolt on the accelerator cause the VTEC to be engaged.
So, I guess this is more of a VTEC-E deployment.
Anyway, at 2000rpm-2500rpm, even if the VTEC is not engaged, I still enjoy enough pulling torque ... so I guess it's due to the VTC advancing the timing ...
Interesting experiment and I am still exploring further :-)
Cheers,
SilverStream
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3_stage_vtec
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ive got the same engine from a local junkyard in Pakistan..the block code says d15z7 but its similar to a d15b (three stage vtec) like valve cover without the VTEC word.. two solenoids .. the intake manifold resembles that of a d16y6 (1.6 sohc vtec)
unfortunately the ECU is missing and am not really sure which ECU to use with the engine. ive got the wiring harness but the ECU. kindly mail me back at asad.siraj@tribune.com.pk and megakewl@hotmail.com with the ecu part number (37820-???-???)
an early reply shall be highly appreciated.
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xxpaulcpxx
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I'm inspired now to look into putting that particular engine combination into my CRX. I have questions though:
Since this is an uncommon request for US engine distributers, what is the ECU number - I want to ensure I get ther correct ECU for the 3 stage VTEC/MultiMatic combination?
Is there a source for an English language Factory Service manual/ Electrical Manual for the EK3?
Thanks for any insight you can provide.
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3_stage_vtec
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sure dude. i can send u the wiring harness + the ecu if someone can tell me which one to use.
ive got everything hooked up and am just waiting for someone to tell me which ecu to use so i can plug and play
also once am done ill send u pics of my swap and stuff
laters
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xxpaulcpxx
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I actually have a supplier in Montreal who says they can set me up, but I just need (like you) to have the correct ECU model number so I know I am getting all the right parts.
Plus- I'd hate to see the shipping bill to get all the way from Pakistan to Chicago!
Please post that ECU number if you get it!
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3_stage_vtec
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hey the bill isnt gonna be that much... about 50 US $z.... that will be all taken care off for you but the harness over here is for the automatic (multimatic).. i shall be really grateful if you could get me the harness for the manual transmission d15b (3 stage vtec). let me know how much would it cost you and you can do a POD (payment on delivery) kinda thing. FedEx does it.
anyway i went to the junk today and got the ECU.... it had d15b Ek3 written on it and since the ek3z only came with the 3 stage vtec i guess thats the one.
the model number is 37820-p2j-003
laterz
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xxpaulcpxx
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Not the 3 stage VTEC's, I'm going to have to get it imported special, no version of it came to the US. The only place I contacted that carried it was an importer in Canada, but they said I could get everything together for $600 - a good price.
Usually the auto tranny harness isn't radicaly different from the manual one, you may just have to adapt one of the wires... like the reverse light wire or something similar.
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3_stage_vtec
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dude go for it... 600 is a very good price...
sure therez not a radical change bw auto n manual harness but i just wanted it to be perfect .. U know plug n play....
anyways the ECU. one of my friends in malaysia confirmed to me the 37820-p2j-003(manual) and 37820-p2j-j61 (multimatic)
u can run the P2T, P2N or the P2J ... doesnt really matter
i've both available here if u need em. (the p2j'z)
laterz.. Ezzz
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fandango
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What I really want to know is, how to get my hands one???!!!
WongKN, you sure have a knack for writing convincing reviews..:-)
Anyway, I am from Kuala Lumpur Malaysia, and I sure would appreciate anyone who can give me some leads as to how to get a recon JDM unit - I would prefer that to a used one from a Malaysian owner.
Cheers.
ps. I can be reached at chooitk@yahoo.com
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Wong KN
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Fandango,
I emailed you at the email address given. Did you receive anything ?
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Flex
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Very interesting article. You certainly makes me feel I have a second woman in my life.
However, I have certain questions.
1. I cannot seem to tell when the VTEC kicks in. At what RPM and really I cannot feel the difference.
2. I am getting the impression the after the VTEC kicks in, am I to believe after cruising speeds is reached, it kicks back out providing a steady rev is maintained.
3. Am I to believe that after adding a free flow filter, do not expect any noticeable boost.
4. I still have the standard wheel that comes with the EK3, do your think changing to 195/16/45 wheel will make a big difference.
5. Finally, what's the big difference between the B16 and D15 engines
Thanks for your reply.
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Wong KN
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Hi,
Attempts to answer your questions. Best try basis !! :)
1. VTEC comes in about 5800rpm. The air-intake system does a very good job of masking the change in intake noise. However, when accelerating at full throttle from stand-still in S-mode, you should be able to hear the change. It's very subtle.
2. It depends on how fast your 'cruising speed' is. The EK3 Vi can do 120kph (75mph) at 2900rpm with 4 adults in the car and STILL do running in lean-burn mode (12V, 20+ af ratio). For Malaysia at least, that's the fastest speed we are legally allowed to do. I have done 140kph at very light throttle with rpms hovering around 3000+. Go any higher and you'll have to press the throttle more. Once above 3000rpm, the engine will run in 16V mode.
3. From what I heard, adding a free-flow filter will give mild gains in power.
4. The stock wheels are either 175/75/13 or 185/65/14. For 16", you should be using 205/45. 195/45 will be a bit too small I think. Your speedo will be overreading by a bit. I think you should calculate the wheel diameters and compare. Don't err by more than 5%. For MMT gearboxes, the car speed sensor signal is one of the input parameter for its operation so go too far out and the gearbox might not work properly (probably one of the reasons for the many reported MMT 'problems' too).
5. D16 and D15 differs in their displacement of course. The D16s will have better midrange power. But ONLY the D15B comes in 3-stage VTEC configuration and this is the absolute BEST version of SOHC-VTEC Honda ever made. So irregardless of how much midrange power the D16 has, the engine will never be able to match the D15B 3-stage VTEC in overall excellence.
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Earthborne
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I'm driving a manual 4Dr VTI in Singapore. The engine spec in the log sheet is D15Z9. It's a 3-stage VTEC.
When stock, I can hit 600km on 32L of petrol, that's 18.75Km/L. After some mods like straight-thru exhuast & Air/Fuel tuning, I can now hit 500km/32L, that's 15.6km/L.
I have to say that this is a very good car for power & economy.
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yusuff
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allo
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yusuff
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I have problem with rpm, when i run at 100km per hour then i realesed the throttle suddenly the rpm up and down and jerking.During reversed mod also,my car not even l move till i press the throttle, also jerking. I already change gear box oil.But the problem same.
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WongKN
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With this kind of problem, it's best to get a competant mechanic to check the car out. It could be due to bad plugs, or broken plug wire, or maybe something jammed, etc. A lot of things can be the cause and it would be quite impossible to get a resolution over the net. Best to get to an authorized Honda service center.
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pedroren
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I have 2 questions, not exactly about this article, but about the Multimatic.
1- Is it safe to change the Multimatic knob while running?
2- What is exactly the difference between Economy, Drive and Sport mode? I don't know about the rpms, so, what is the recomended modes for each speed/driving style?
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silverfox_1126
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1) Yes, it's safe to change the drive mode selector while running.
See... http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=248813
2) One of the differences between the drive modes is the range of gear ratios the transmission will use. Sport mode will use a lower set of ratios (best accleration) when compaired Drive & Economy. For easy cruising you should try using the Economy mode, for everyday supermarket runs Drive works best and Sport works well for when the 'need for speed' hits...
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ahman
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Hi,
This is really a good article and great discussion on the Civic Ferio Vi.
May i know what is the difference between Civic Vi and Civic VTi for the 3 Stage Vtec engine ??
Regards,
Kah Hoe
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WongKN
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If you are referring to the Singapore version Civic VTi, then basically it's the same car as the JDM Civic Ferio Vi. Just different naming convention, that's all.
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