|
|
|
|
 |
NSXman
 |
|
I think Honda has engineering themselves into a corner. In 5 years from now, I can't imagine where the Accord will be heading. I cannot imagine any more significant power increases, so I guess the only improvements to be made are in the way of fuel economy. They can sweeten the deal with a 6AT, improve ergonomics and safety, and so forth.
But I seriously doubt we will ever see a more powerful Accord than this. They might have to actually back off these figures in the future. The only other option is to continue to push the Accord upscale, while making the new Civic into the old Accord, and the new Fit into the old Civic. Sort of how Nissan handled their Maxima, Altima, and Sentra.
|
Wizard
|
|
Power increase will continue but at a slower pace. The focus will definitely shift more towards fuel economy. Then there is the diesel option in the horizon. Civic won't grow beyond compact size. Fit-Civic-Accord trio is perfect (complemented by the hybrid and CR-Z). Honda should use CSX as something to slot between Civic and Accord with 2.4/I-4, also making it the entry level Acura.
As far Nissan's strategy goes, it made little sense. Other than Altima (which basically combined the old Altima and the old Maxima, using the formula Honda and Toyota had been using for a long time), Maxima and Sentra have become "also ran" vehicles. Versa is probably ready to kill Sentra altogether.
|
NSXman
|
|
Wizard wrote:
Power increase will continue but at a slower pace. The focus will definitely shift more towards fuel economy. Then there is the diesel option in the horizon. Civic won't grow beyond compact size. Fit-Civic-Accord trio is perfect (complemented by the hybrid and CR-Z). Honda should use CSX as something to slot between Civic and Accord with 2.4/I-4, also making it the entry level Acura.
As far Nissan's strategy goes, it made little sense. Other than Altima (which basically combined the old Altima and the old Maxima, using the formula Honda and Toyota had been using for a long time), Maxima and Sentra have become "also ran" vehicles. Versa is probably ready to kill Sentra altogether.
|
I thought the G35 would kill off the Maxima too, but is hasn't. Atleast Toyota's top sedan (Avalon) has quite the long wheelbase. The Maxima has no distinguishing characteristics, besides that ugly sky view thingy.
|
Ignition_Key
|
|
|
It wont be time before they Discontinue the MAXIMA. The Altima has pretty much taken its spot.
|
CarPhreakD
|
|
NSXman wrote:
I think Honda has engineering themselves into a corner. In 5 years from now, I can't imagine where the Accord will be heading. I cannot imagine any more significant power increases, so I guess the only improvements to be made are in the way of fuel economy. They can sweeten the deal with a 6AT, improve ergonomics and safety, and so forth.
But I seriously doubt we will ever see a more powerful Accord than this. They might have to actually back off these figures in the future. The only other option is to continue to push the Accord upscale, while making the new Civic into the old Accord, and the new Fit into the old Civic. Sort of how Nissan handled their Maxima, Altima, and Sentra.
|
I personally already see Honda hitting the upper limits for the Accord in terms of size and power. If Honda chose to make it a completely full size vehicle (as opposed to squeaking into the category)... well, I can't imagine they'd do that considering fuel prices and Honda's current powertrain choices. It would be too much... how much more room do you need in a family sedan? Power might increase, but the increases for the next generation I really don't see surpassing anything more than 300 hp... if Honda did that they would need to make the Accord RWD, like the Chrysler 300C, and that vehicle is currently suffering not only because it's a Chrysler but because of market conditions. Fuel economy and emissions standards will only get tougher here on out so it wouldn't be wise for Honda to up the size and power of the Accord any longer.
If the other automanufacturers came out with ever-increasingly larger and more powerful engines, I don't see Honda following them very much anymore. It would be absolutely retarded for the other manufacturers to do that as well.
What I can see changing though, is Honda making the chassis stiffer, working on the overall refinement of the Accord (NVH levels, interior styling and materials, etc.), outside styling (of course), and new engines that are more fuel economical (and perhaps more powerful for the I4 and diesels).
|
HONDA AFVM
|
|
CarPhreakD wrote:
NSXman wrote:
I think Honda has engineering themselves into a corner. In 5 years from now, I can't imagine where the Accord will be heading. I cannot imagine any more significant power increases, so I guess the only improvements to be made are in the way of fuel economy. They can sweeten the deal with a 6AT, improve ergonomics and safety, and so forth.
But I seriously doubt we will ever see a more powerful Accord than this. They might have to actually back off these figures in the future. The only other option is to continue to push the Accord upscale, while making the new Civic into the old Accord, and the new Fit into the old Civic. Sort of how Nissan handled their Maxima, Altima, and Sentra.
|
I personally already see Honda hitting the upper limits for the Accord in terms of size and power. If Honda chose to make it a completely full size vehicle (as opposed to squeaking into the category)... well, I can't imagine they'd do that considering fuel prices and Honda's current powertrain choices. It would be too much... how much more room do you need in a family sedan? Power might increase, but the increases for the next generation I really don't see surpassing anything more than 300 hp... if Honda did that they would need to make the Accord RWD, like the Chrysler 300C, and that vehicle is currently suffering not only because it's a Chrysler but because of market conditions. Fuel economy and emissions standards will only get tougher here on out so it wouldn't be wise for Honda to up the size and power of the Accord any longer.
If the other automanufacturers came out with ever-increasingly larger and more powerful engines, I don't see Honda following them very much anymore. It would be absolutely retarded for the other manufacturers to do that as well.
What I can see changing though, is Honda making the chassis stiffer, working on the overall refinement of the Accord (NVH levels, interior styling and materials, etc.), outside styling (of course), and new engines that are more fuel economical (and perhaps more powerful for the I4 and diesels).
|
There is always room for improvement. You can increase power and offset the over/under steer with electronics. You can increase size and keep the mpg numbers the same with light weight technology that hasn’t even been placed on the market yet.
5 years ago, did we think the Civic would have side and side curtain air bags with TPS and VSA? And the coolest dash of most cars?
You guys sound like it's all over for the Accord in 5 years. Think positive instead of doom & gloom.
What ever happened to "let’s win one for the gipper" I'm sorry for bringing Politics into it (CarPhreakD), it’s just part of who I am.
Ca-mon guys, it's just the beginning, not the end!
|
CarPhreakD
|
|
|
Hmm? There's no doom and gloom involved, and I'm not sure what this has to do with politics cuz none of us mentioned anything
|
HONDA AFVM
|
|
CarPhreakD wrote:
Hmm? There's no doom and gloom involved, and I'm not sure what this has to do with politics cuz none of us mentioned anything
|
Doom-NSXmans post; I can't imagine! Like it's all over for Accord in 5 yrs.
Politics; "the gipper" Our great President from 1981 to 1989.
8>)
|
CarPhreakD
|
|
HONDA AFVM wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Hmm? There's no doom and gloom involved, and I'm not sure what this has to do with politics cuz none of us mentioned anything
|
Doom-NSXmans post; I can't imagine! Like it's all over for Accord in 5 yrs.
Politics; "the gipper" Our great President from 1981 to 1989.
8>)
|
I'm not familiar with US presidents so I don't know and don't care. All we're saying is that Accords from here on out probably won't experience any more increases in the V6 power and size. And no, no RWD... it's a sensible family vehicle and should be kept as such.
|
HONDA AFVM
|
|
CarPhreakD wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Hmm? There's no doom and gloom involved, and I'm not sure what this has to do with politics cuz none of us mentioned anything
|
Doom-NSXmans post; I can't imagine! Like it's all over for Accord in 5 yrs.
Politics; "the gipper" Our great President from 1981 to 1989.
8>)
|
I'm not familiar with US presidents so I don't know and don't care. All we're saying is that Accords from here on out probably won't experience any more increases in the V6 power and size. And no, no RWD... it's a sensible family vehicle and should be kept as such.
|
I agree. I can only imagine what is in store for the next Accord. One thing for sure is they are putting in on paper now. The design prosess for the next gen. starts with in the same year of the launch.
I think they are going to move the Accord up a level and introduce a new model between the Civic and Accord or move the Civic into the Accord slot it fills now. The civic is already moving up with the EXL so people are use to a more expencive Civic. the 2011 Civic will be larger and more powerful, no doubt. The Fit will fill the budget slot now. I here a sedan is in the works and with the small Hybrid under 20k (not called the Fit) a year or so away, we are in for some big changes with in the next 18 months (Acura included).
These are great times for Honda/Acura and I think they are finely understanding what it means to take a risk and win. That the H & A on the front and back no longer sells cars.
I think Acura is swinging back and we will be happy with what we see next year. The Pilot should be a winner. A true 4 door Element would be nice, streched about 10 inches.
I truly think the Accord is going to be Hondas RL because Acura is moving in the direction of full Luxo and the word "Near" will no longer be in front of Luxo.
|
owequitit
|
|
HONDA AFVM wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Hmm? There's no doom and gloom involved, and I'm not sure what this has to do with politics cuz none of us mentioned anything
|
Doom-NSXmans post; I can't imagine! Like it's all over for Accord in 5 yrs.
Politics; "the gipper" Our great President from 1981 to 1989.
8>)
|
I'm not familiar with US presidents so I don't know and don't care. All we're saying is that Accords from here on out probably won't experience any more increases in the V6 power and size. And no, no RWD... it's a sensible family vehicle and should be kept as such.
|
I agree. I can only imagine what is in store for the next Accord. One thing for sure is they are putting in on paper now. The design prosess for the next gen. starts with in the same year of the launch.
I think they are going to move the Accord up a level and introduce a new model between the Civic and Accord or move the Civic into the Accord slot it fills now. The civic is already moving up with the EXL so people are use to a more expencive Civic. the 2011 Civic will be larger and more powerful, no doubt. The Fit will fill the budget slot now. I here a sedan is in the works and with the small Hybrid under 20k (not called the Fit) a year or so away, we are in for some big changes with in the next 18 months (Acura included).
These are great times for Honda/Acura and I think they are finely understanding what it means to take a risk and win. That the H & A on the front and back no longer sells cars.
I think Acura is swinging back and we will be happy with what we see next year. The Pilot should be a winner. A true 4 door Element would be nice, streched about 10 inches.
I truly think the Accord is going to be Hondas RL because Acura is moving in the direction of full Luxo and the word "Near" will no longer be in front of Luxo.
|
Perhaps Americans will realize that more is not always better so that in 10 years we don't all have to drive 25 foot long 5000lb barges, since that is all that sells here.
|
6SPDTL
|
|
|
I agree this is probably as much power as the Accord is ever going to get. I'm almost completely certain that the next five years will be the end of the gasoline power wars, as in the 70's the next war is MPG by whatever means are available. However, unlike in the 70's the superpowered gasoline engine is now headed to obsolete heap. The future is diesel, followed by alternative powerplants. However, I don't expect that to be the end of the power wars it will just feature different technology.
|
CarPhreakD
|
|
6SPDTL wrote:
I agree this is probably as much power as the Accord is ever going to get. I'm almost completely certain that the next five years will be the end of the gasoline power wars, as in the 70's the next war is MPG by whatever means are available. However, unlike in the 70's the superpowered gasoline engine is now headed to obsolete heap. The future is diesel, followed by alternative powerplants. However, I don't expect that to be the end of the power wars it will just feature different technology.
|
The future is diesel?? LMAO
|
Furia
|
|
Diesel? LOL ROFL
electric would make more sense now.. I want one of those Aerial Atom with electrical engine. super fast.
|
TonyEX
|
|
I would say that the Accord will eventually go to three mainline engine options.
(1) High Zoot V6 ( 270bhp )
(2) High Zoot I4 ( 220 bhp )
(2a) High Zoot I4 IMA ( 220 bhp with 220 ft/ lbs )
(3) Low Zoot I4 ( 180 bhp )
(3a) Low Zoot I4 ( 180 bhp with 200 ft /lbs )
Once the "High Zoot I4" hits, I would guess that sales of the V6 will diminish substantially. The interesting options are the IMA where the electrics can be used to substantially boost low end torque. IMHO, a 220 bhp/220 ft/lbs AT5 powertrain for an Accord would be a very good powertrain option and should offer good handling, balance, performance and efficiency. Even a 180 bhp/200 ft/lbs IMA would be quite good.
The V6 will at sometime require serious TCS and either ATTS or LSD.
Of course, there's always the possibility of an Accord Turbo Diesel but I think that will always be a small market in the US.
|
NSXman
|
|
TonyE wrote:
I would say that the Accord will eventually go to three mainline engine options.
(1) High Zoot V6 ( 270bhp )
(2) High Zoot I4 ( 220 bhp )
(2a) High Zoot I4 IMA ( 220 bhp with 220 ft/ lbs )
(3) Low Zoot I4 ( 180 bhp )
(3a) Low Zoot I4 ( 180 bhp with 200 ft /lbs )
Once the "High Zoot I4" hits, I would guess that sales of the V6 will diminish substantially. The interesting options are the IMA where the electrics can be used to substantially boost low end torque. IMHO, a 220 bhp/220 ft/lbs AT5 powertrain for an Accord would be a very good powertrain option and should offer good handling, balance, performance and efficiency. Even a 180 bhp/200 ft/lbs IMA would be quite good.
The V6 will at sometime require serious TCS and either ATTS or LSD.
Of course, there's always the possibility of an Accord Turbo Diesel but I think that will always be a small market in the US.
|
I am not familar with the term "zoot".
I thought the Accord Diesel was a done deal for the 09.
|
6SPDTL
|
|
|
You will see diesel for a decade or so before other alternatives take over, just as it has taken over in europe. Diesel is the cheapest way to to lower carbon emmissions, furthermore,diesel is the one that most similarly performs to gasoline. So you can stop laughing and see the writing in the wall. As a matter of fact, the reason Honda has improved sales in europe significantly in the last few years IS diesel.
|
CarPhreakD
|
|
6SPDTL wrote:
You will see diesel for a decade or so before other alternatives take over, just as it has taken over in europe. Diesel is the cheapest way to to lower carbon emmissions, furthermore,diesel is the one that most similarly performs to gasoline. So you can stop laughing and see the writing in the wall. As a matter of fact, the reason Honda has improved sales in europe significantly in the last few years IS diesel.
|
In the meantime, Diesel is the most expensive in terms of NOx emissions reductions, otherwise there wouldn't be multi-stage specially designed catalytic converters and urea injection systems. Diesels will never be as clean as PZEV petrol engines.
I would venture to say that a diesel engine operates completely opposite from a regular Honda petrol. I.e. slow revving, extremely low redline, and heavy. It's great for the majority of people who like their cars boring to drive (the Honda 2.2 litre diesel has a redline of 4K... and it takes hours for it to get up to that point), but a diesel engine will never be as clean as a petrol engine. In Europe, where petrol goes for $7 in some places, it makes sense to have a diesel in a small vehicle. But there are enough people out there who don't want to drive something with a truck engine, that diesel will make inroads into the mainstream but will not replace petrol engines. Despite all the hype from the mainstream media. Any time you can make a diesel cleaner and more powerful, you can make a petrol even more clean and even more powerful.
|
jero
|
|
I agree that logic hows we are pretty much getting as much power as we really need for everyday cars.
The top accord doesn't really need more than 300hp.
The top everyday civic doesn't really need any more than 200hp.
The economy fit can stay right around 125hp.
The problem we are right back to though is Acura needing to be a solid notch over Honda to justify the price for the upper crust folks.
TSX power at or near the top level accord? ~275hp?!?!?
TL with atleast a 25% increase over the top accord. ~350hp?!?!?
RL 25% over that? ~425+ ?!?!?
I think Acura may be as confused as ever.
Seeing the STi and the Evo hold the line on power at 300, is a relief as well. Stick with 300hp and the low mid 30s price point and bring in refinement for a while. Sounds good to me.
Hopefully this will free up some time for Honda to work on the long lost 300hp "prelude" I've been dreaming of :)
I checked out a new accord sedan the other day. While it does seem quite nice, the size is borderline outrageous IMO. The back seat almost seems toooo cavernous.
|
CarPhreakD
|
|
jero wrote:
I agree that logic hows we are pretty much getting as much power as we really need for everyday cars.
The top accord doesn't really need more than 300hp.
The top everyday civic doesn't really need any more than 200hp.
The economy fit can stay right around 125hp.
The problem we are right back to though is Acura needing to be a solid notch over Honda to justify the price for the upper crust folks.
TSX power at or near the top level accord? ~275hp?!?!?
TL with atleast a 25% increase over the top accord. ~350hp?!?!?
RL 25% over that? ~425+ ?!?!?
I think Acura may be as confused as ever.
Seeing the STi and the Evo hold the line on power at 300, is a relief as well. Stick with 300hp and the low mid 30s price point and bring in refinement for a while. Sounds good to me.
Hopefully this will free up some time for Honda to work on the long lost 300hp "prelude" I've been dreaming of :)
I checked out a new accord sedan the other day. While it does seem quite nice, the size is borderline outrageous IMO. The back seat almost seems toooo cavernous.
|
Well, the Altima is encroaching on G levels of power, so it's not that simple. Acura doesn't need to "trump" the power levels offered in baser Hondas, but they do need to make a better, more luxurious, more sporty, everyday car.
The base TSX, in my opinion, would be okay at around 230 hp (with a Type-S with the K23A1 turbo and 6MT/DSG option with more), and the TL only needs something like 300-320 hp (Type-S could have maybe 320-350 hp... most importantly, the TL needs RWD), and the RL just needs a V8 (320-370 hp). The main problems here is what luxury buyers want: prestige and the "best everything". Acura has a ways to go to consider themselves a top sport luxury brand, but they can start by making their next generation cars better than the competition in every category.
|
Mr Bigs
|
|
|
Acura also needs to totally seperate themselves from Honda in a sense you shouldn't be able to associate any trim with it's Honda relatives.
|
2000rebuiltacrd
|
|
6SPDTL wrote:
You will see diesel for a decade or so before other alternatives take over, just as it has taken over in europe. Diesel is the cheapest way to to lower carbon emmissions, furthermore,diesel is the one that most similarly performs to gasoline. So you can stop laughing and see the writing in the wall. As a matter of fact, the reason Honda has improved sales in europe significantly in the last few years IS diesel.
|
...but most people couldnt give a damn about emissions. I say more power, we are all gonna die someday anyway- im enjoying my powered honda :)
|
|
|
| |
|
| Thread Page - [1] |
| |
|
![[home]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/home.gif){kind=small}
![[rumors and news]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/rumors.gif){kind=small}
![[model release matrix]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/newmodelreleasematrix.gif){kind=small}
![[dealer network]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/dealernet.gif){kind=small}
![[desktop calendar]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/calendar.gif){kind=small}
![[exhaust notes]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/exhaust.gif){kind=small}
![[tov forums]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/forums.gif){kind=small}
![[links]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/links.gif){kind=small}
![[search]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/search.gif){kind=small}
![[sponsors]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/sponsors.gif){kind=small}
![[garage]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/garage.gif){kind=small}
![[login]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/login.gif){kind=small}
