They are letting the bean counters run the motorcycle division into the ground.
The "new CBR1000" better be something extremely cool & new. I don't think switchable fuel maps or yet another 1% loss in weight or better mass centralization can bring back the excitement.
If it's not a 1200cc V-twin or a new V-4 or something I'm just going to roll my eyes some more.
You just can't design and sell these things like Civics and Accords, they have to speak to the soul!
Heck where is the Honda Supermotard! Or the "Adventure Tourer" ?
Yeah to be honest I am quite tired of this war of incrementalism between the big 4. Every other year, another incremental improvement. Sure, someone usually does the best job of the bunch but the 4 600's and 4 1000's are all pretty similar.
I too wish Honda would bring us a V4 or V5. The V-Twin would be fine too if that's how they wanted to go. Of course its a more complicated engine and costs more but sometimes you've got to be different to sell more. A V4 would give their sport bikes character and panache that no one else can claim.
And you're right on about the adventure or supermoto. Its like Honda doesn't want to try anything until someone else has already been doing it for awhile. And really, what unique sporting models does Honda make right now? And damn, what happened to the Interceptor?
Kawasaki is on a tear with exciting new bikes. ZX-14, Concours, the Ninja 650, the new Versys.
Yamaha has a major hit with the FJR1300, I believe they have a Motard.
Suzuki has a Motard, and they actually do the sterotypical Big-4 sportbike better then anyone else. If all Honda is going to produce is cookie cutter sportbikes, the choice is clear, buy the superior Suzuki.
It's just Honda that seems to want to bore us to death.
At the rate things are going if/when I get the "new motorcycle" bug I will be leaving the Honda camp after 5 years of fun rides.
Well in some of the big 4 are more unique than the others but I find all of their lineups somewhat boring for the most part. I like what KTM and Ducati are doing as far as new and interesting product. KTM has a new 1200cc v-twin supersport coming, as well as a single-cylinder naked bike, and a single-cylinder sport bike. Then there's the two street supermotos (950 and 690) and the adventure model they make.
And soon Aprilia will be releasing a V4 superbike, which kind of hurts my heart because it is Honda that should be making a V4 superbike.
If I had to rate the Big 4 in unique products
1. Suzuki
They've got the only street legal Japanese supermoto, they've got the all-new Hayabusa which really broke the mold for hyper-sport tourer, they've got the Hayabusa-powered B-King, they make the only 750 supersport, and they've got the SV650 and 1000. A pretty good and diverse lineup all around
2. Kawasaki
I think Kawasaki is a bit derivative. The ZX-14 is following the Busa, but they do have the Ninja 650 and the Z750 and Z1000. Still, they could be doing more. The ZX-14 Concours is a pretty cool idea though.
4. Yamaha and Honda
Neither manufacturer really has any unique products right now. Or at least, neither of them have really broken new ground lately.
One thing that really urks me about this is that Honda was using a sort of hype marketing approach for the 2008 models with the whole "Dream Machine" thing and I didn't see anything in there that was remotely dreamy. Seriously, where's the beef?
Honda has been my favorite company for ages. I am getting very concerned about the lack of innovation in both cars & bikes.
In any segment, I am finding I glance enviously at other makes. I am preferring the Mazda3, new 6 is awesome. Where the heck is the Mobilio Spike to compete with Scion?
Some bikes like the CBR600R & Interceptor are great bikes but have limited appeal. I like the Kawa Versys for wide appeal.
They really just need to bring over some of their japanese products. The 400 hornet would do excellent here, (freeway speeds!) As would the 400 battle bike(motard). Or just make a crf 450 motard. I also think that the Big Red should have a new name and four seats because thats what everyone does anyway! Unfortunatly I guess Honda doesnt think we are sophisticated enough for world product.
Tosa1962 wrote: Honda is lacking between Nighthawk 250 and 599.
Huge hole in product line.
MSRP for 2008 CB250 (Nighthawk) is $3699.
MSRP for 2006 CB600F6 (599) is $7399.
See the list for motorcycles priced between them.
It seems Kawasaki and Suzuki are keeping that market open, even Yamaha has fallen asleep here.
MSRP for 2008 Ninja 250R is $2999. (I'd buy this over the CB250)
MSRP for 2008 Ninja 500R is $5049.
MSRP for 2008 Ninja 650R is $6399.
MSRP for 2008 GS500F is $5199.
MSRP for 2008 SV650 is $5999.
MSRP for 2008 Katana 600 is $6399.
MSRP for 2008 SV650S is $6499.
JMU R1 wrote: Well in some of the big 4 are more unique than the others but I find all of their lineups somewhat boring for the most part. I like what KTM and Ducati are doing as far as new and interesting product. KTM has a new 1200cc v-twin supersport coming, as well as a single-cylinder naked bike, and a single-cylinder sport bike. Then there's the two street supermotos (950 and 690) and the adventure model they make.
And soon Aprilia will be releasing a V4 superbike, which kind of hurts my heart because it is Honda that should be making a V4 superbike.
If I had to rate the Big 4 in unique products
1. Suzuki
They've got the only street legal Japanese supermoto, they've got the all-new Hayabusa which really broke the mold for hyper-sport tourer, they've got the Hayabusa-powered B-King, they make the only 750 supersport, and they've got the SV650 and 1000. A pretty good and diverse lineup all around
2. Kawasaki
I think Kawasaki is a bit derivative. The ZX-14 is following the Busa, but they do have the Ninja 650 and the Z750 and Z1000. Still, they could be doing more. The ZX-14 Concours is a pretty cool idea though.
4. Yamaha and Honda
Neither manufacturer really has any unique products right now. Or at least, neither of them have really broken new ground lately.
One thing that really urks me about this is that Honda was using a sort of hype marketing approach for the 2008 models with the whole "Dream Machine" thing and I didn't see anything in there that was remotely dreamy. Seriously, where's the beef?
To be honest, I don't really know what do you expect... and I can't find anything innovative on the examples any of you've mentioned. Making a 750 supersports is nothing ground-breaking...
Anyway, I think that you just lost perspective by looking at big bikes... Digging up Soichiro? Soichiro's dream may have been more like a "super-cub" than a 180Hp 1000RR...
Motorbike manufacturers are giving people what they ask for. The problem is people making a whole story because that bike has 180Hp instead of 175Hp, and that bike weights 5 Kg less than the other...
In the end, I think that Honda is much busier at the global stage than trying to enlarge their NA line-ups. They are releasing new bikes all the time, as well as new technologies or applying them through huge line-ups, it's just that the whole thing is too big to be too reactive in any particular market, specially because each of them is very unique (much more than with cars). Not to mention the fact that for many modern motorbikes, Honda was the one the trend-setter. Now everyone else has brought their "Honda-challengers" and for sure they have been more dynamic in bringing more options around the same ideas for some markets. Honda's priorities for introducing new stuff have just switched.
The fact is that one may notice it or not, but Honda is still pushing hard innovation, and forcing other minor automakers to follow in many areas. Some of the things they've done in recent years: - Introducing navigation to bikes (GoldWing).
- Introducing first ever Airbag (GoldWing).
- Introducing electronic immobilizer systems (HISS, CBR600F).
- Introducing fuel injection to the smallest bikes starting from 50cc. Just past week Honda announced that their cheapest scooters in Japan and the all mighty supercub has finally gone PGMFI. Those may have been the last of their kind in developped countries, but they've also been pushing hard to bring gasoline injection to most developing countries like Vietnam.
- Introducing first variable valve timing into motorbikes (VFR and JDM CB400).
- Introducing CBS and making ABS mainstream equipment. Nowadays almost the entire European lineup has CBS or can have it. This Autumn Honda just introduced the first ever 125cc scooter available with ABS (S-Wing).
- Also this year they introduced their new compact 300cc engine for scooters, which allows for 125cc class packaging in the Euro SH300i.
- Introducing electronically controlled CVT for 250cc (with 7-speed sequential, D and Sport modes in Forza).
- Introducing idling stop system for motorbikes (several scooters around the world).
- Introducing active damper system (1000RR and now 600RR).
- Introducing high performance catalyst systems and making them mainstream (HECS3). It goes well below Europe's Euro3 regulations, which I believe are the most strict in the world for motorbikes.
We also know that they've been working in FuelCell and hybrid prototypes, and we know that VCM and super-low-friction engines will be soon available.
All that is innovation that is bringing motorcycle transportation for-wards, and to be honest, who cares how fast is a 1000RR, it's already beyond what anyone that's not racing needs or uses. Even a 600RR is beyond that point. They can be faster, but there is no more passion you can bring into motorcycles... any of those sportsbikes is already exhilarating and has been for a long time. The same way there is not more passion in a new F430 than there was in an old Ferrari... The problem is that people need a constant input of "something new", so manufacturers give them.
Suzuki/Kawasaki/Ducati are much smaller companies, focusing in small markets and with a much higher reactivity. That's a good thing, but Honda is following a different path. As with anything else, Honda's engineering resources are limited, and it's the same people moving from one project to another. To me, they've just switched focus to other areas/markets that are less visible to you (and I'm only talking about motorcycles, but making solar panels and jets or bio-fuels research is also "switching"...).
I think that Honda is just doing what they want without caring much of what the rest do. And of course, if a particular market starts growing fast, they will introduce something to play there, but it's not like they are waiting for others to do something first.
Buying motorbikes now is like making a "check-list" of fancy new features to have (+power&weight specs). But in the end, it's not because they have ABS that all the ABS are the same, and it's not because it has an inverted fork that it is useful for something or that it's nimble because it's light. Take a new Hornet and a new FZ6: on paper they all have all the same fancy features and it should be a matter of which one you like more, but ride them both and you'll see that it's a whole different world.
The fact that Honda is developing innovations on several fronts is not lost on me, the problem for me is that Honda's lineup right now doesn't have very much that is unique nor have they attacked any new market segments in a long time.
The new 599 is a great bike that is stylish and unique and I like that, good. But what else have they made recently that no one else has? The Interceptor is going on its 6th year now, and its supposed to be a flagship model. What happened?
Sure, I know Honda does a lot with smaller motorcycles in other markets and all but Europe and North America are the two biggest markets for full-sized bikes and the lineup is just starting to look too conservative.
All that is innovation that is bringing motorcycle transportation for-wards, and to be honest, who cares how fast is a 1000RR, it's already beyond what anyone that's not racing needs or uses. Even a 600RR is beyond that point. They can be faster, but there is no more passion you can bring into motorcycles... any of those sportsbikes is already exhilarating and has been for a long time. The same way there is not more passion in a new F430 than there was in an old Ferrari... The problem is that people need a constant input of "something new", so manufacturers give them.
That is silly. I suppose Honda should just stick with the 130 hp Civic Si of 1993 and not bother developing a new supercar with more than the 270 hp of the old NSX. Yeah the performance of the supersports is more than what can be fully used on the street but that's what the racetrack (or strip if that's your thing) is for.
Passion? That's the whole point we're trying to make. Instead of this war of incrementalism with inline-4 cylinder sport bikes why doesn't Honda do something different. Honda is known for V4's but we haven't had a V4 sportbike since the RC45 (albeit a bike made in very limited quantities). Aprilia, Aprilia is bringing a V4 to the market when the V4 is Honda's signature racing engine.
And what about the Desmosedici RR? Come on, Honda should have been the one to come out with a Moto GP replica first. They could've easily trumped Ducati since the RC211V was much more successful than the Desmosedicis.
Supermotos? Why should Honda be the last to the party? They already make motocross bikes, it wouldn't even cost them that much to develop supermoto versions. I'm not even asking that they make V-Twin supermoto like the Aprilia SXV or a street motard like the Ducati Hypermotard. I mean geez they have the XR400SM in Japan, just give it to us already.
Honda usually does a great job with the bikes they already have on the lineup but it just seems like they're not willing to take any risks on product. The smaller manufacturers are. The fact that Honda is many times bigger than Ducati, KTM, BMW, Aprilia and the like means they can take risks more easily. If something doesn't sell quite as well as they'd expected its not going to kill them. Someone like Ducati on other hand might get bought out or go bankrupt if they made a similar mistake.
I just don't want to see Honda Motorcycles start acting like Toyota. Toyota is the biggest kid on the block and doesn't typically take many risks on product because it doesn't have to. They can wait until someone else blazes the trail and they can develop their own model. Honda does blaze its own trail on technology but they need to do it more with their lineup. But who knows, maybe Honda will surprise everyone at EICMA in November.
The track here in New England is just overflowing with motards, it has gotten absolutely huge in the last 3-4 years. (Has to do with us having a smaller track then many other places)
They are all the rage on the street too.
How on earth Honda continues to miss this blows my mind.. shipping a motard version of one of their many dirtbikes would easy and inexpensive.
If they are going to try and rely on the CRB1000RR they need to get competitive in AMA superbike in a hurry.. general feeling to me is that most people buying these bikes view the CBR as the worst of the big 4.
Yamaha - Sexy looks
Kawasaki - Huge power and exciting nature
Suzuki - Best of the best
Honda - ???
The thing is there are just so many trends out on the street that they're completely missing.
Motards, sensible street standards, they've failed to keep up in the Sport touring segment, etc...
e.x. they shipped the 599 over to the US, or at least a version of it, but noone wanted it as it wasn't as good as the competition and it was the most expensive... Low 599 sales had nothing to do with the type of bike.. it's just everyone rightly bought SV650s from Suzuki instead! Hello Honda, how about a new Hawk?
I love my VFR.. but no one is buying them cause Honda has really missed the boat. It's still expensive, it's still very expensive to maintain, and it's lacking anything resembling nice modern suspension, amenities, etc.. that would really make it the best sport tourer. (Not to mention people complaining about the power) Ten years ago the 1998 VFR made sense.. it was more powerful then the 600s and not that far of the mark of many other sportbikes, while still being more friendly. Now it just stands out as expensive, high maintenance, etc.. with much lower performance.
I guess the thing is they want to sell to the lowest common denominator.. the cruiser guy who rides 4 days a year and the 18 year old who buys a sportbike and rides for a year or two before binning the bike and giving up on motorcycling forever.
If they're going to continue to try and rely on the CBRs they need to make some effort to appear to be worthy of racing on the same track as Spies and Mladin. Every race I watched this year on US soil was just an embarassment.
Who would have ever thought even BMW would be introducing more new exciting models then Honda?
That's going a bit far. Honda needs to update the VFR, which they have not done (and which many rumours point to). However, to compare an unupdated bike to others is simply ridiculous. Obviously Honda has been paying attention to the CBR600RR and the soon to the be released 1000RR, and the current 600RR is tearing up racetracks (check out the TOV Race Reports by Gerald Irish). Now that those models are just about out of the way for the moment, they can focus on either creating a new bike, or updating some others.
Another thing: While Supermotos may be popular in New England, in Canada I don't see many of them around. Honda has (wisely) chosen to bring over a CBR125R instead, and those were sold out before they were even delivered! Now that Honda has a new fanbase, they need to follow it up with a 250-400 cc bike for all these new riders to move up to. I have no doubt in their mind that they're plotting something, perhaps a new CBR or a small sports-tourer.
Doesn't the CRF230L that was just announced count as a supermotard? It's a dual-sport... It looks to be a great and reliable bike for beginners, so it's the start of something. I believe that Honda would do well to focus on the lower displacement end of their lineup to attract more new riders into the sport, especially as motorcycle sales in North America have been falling as baby boomers start to retire. Then they could dedicate more resources into updating their larger motorbikes.
You can have a 599 anytime... if you're willing to pay for it. It's shipped from Italy, crunch the numbers on bringing it here...
Well, I guess I wrote too much and you lose my point...
My point is that Honda is nowadays much more interested in bringing everyday clean and useful motorbikes for the majority than to bring an all mighty MotoGP replica for a few enthusiasts.
As I said, you may like it or not, but that's the way it goes, and also as I said, it doesn't mean they are not innovative anymore, it means they've switched their centres of interest. To my understanding simply because motorbikes have little to win in terms of performance, they've already reached levels that are beyond any reason. But they still have a long way to go in terms of two essential factors to the majority of people out there seeking for a transportation mean: "safety and environmental friendliness" (the second one isn't still so important for people, but Honda has spent their whole existence to say it matters for them, and more and more governments are starting to feel concerned about it).
I think Honda regards themselves as the ones that should lead, and I guess they don't feel anymore anyone needs them to bring more performance or fancy new stuff to the board.
danielgr wrote: Well, I guess I wrote too much and you lose my point...
My point is that Honda is nowadays much more interested in bringing everyday clean and useful motorbikes for the majority than to bring an all mighty MotoGP replica for a few enthusiasts.
As I said, you may like it or not, but that's the way it goes, and also as I said, it doesn't mean they are not innovative anymore, it means they've switched their centres of interest. To my understanding simply because motorbikes have little to win in terms of performance, they've already reached levels that are beyond any reason. But they still have a long way to go in terms of two essential factors to the majority of people out there seeking for a transportation mean: "safety and environmental friendliness" (the second one isn't still so important for people, but Honda has spent their whole existence to say it matters for them, and more and more governments are starting to feel concerned about it).
I think Honda regards themselves as the ones that should lead, and I guess they don't feel anymore anyone needs them to bring more performance or fancy new stuff to the board.
And I forgot my second point.
It seems to me that a lot of people think "the bigger the more resources". That's pretty much false when it comes to industrial companies with vast product line-ups.
It's not because you sell much more vehicles that you have more resources, otherwise ask GM what they think about it... Most innovative companies are always the smallest ones, simply because you start building a company with ideas, and for auto/moto makers with engineers. At the beginning you have no-one to build your product, then you design it with a team of engineers, and once you have it you start thinking how to produce it. When Honda started producing cars their racing team was the same as their design team and the same as the production one. So they raced for a while, applied their knowledge to design a road car, and then spend the time necessary to bring it to production.
When the company starts growing you have to dedicate more and more resources to production activities, and with increasing line-ups you have to dedicate increasing engineering resources to the simple renewing of each particular model.
To make something new you need "a free team", but once they did it, they'll be busy thinking up the follow up, and if you move them to something different, it means the follow up may never come, or it may take very long to happen.
- Let's say Honda makes 200 products (10 per activity) and have 100 teams working on them (one team is able to handle two products). If they add one team it will make 2 extra products among 200 (let's say two new power-boat, so zero new bikes).
- Let's say there is a small-moto-only maker with 10 models and 5 teams, then you add a new one and you get two new models out of 10. For Honda to keep the pace of that tiny company over all their businesses they would need to add 20 teams every cycle !!! But as they grow more, that figure will keep climbing if they want to stay with the most reactive makers.
Never wondered why it was so easy for tiny companies like Google to challenge the ones like Microsoft in a few areas? Of course, with time Google is becoming huge, and things will and are changing.
Another thing that I believe many people misunderstand is thinking Honda is "several companies". Of course production capacity and everything that goes with it is allocated to each particular activity, but as far as I know, engineering resources are more of a common frame, and resources are allocated depending on many factors. That means that despite Honda's R&D budget increasing every year, resources are drained constantly by them entering new activities and areas while maintaining the current ones.
That's something that most people also misses, but companies like Honda are really a amazing, in what they seem to be able to keep up with everyone else out there despite fighting alone with all at the same time. It may seem trivial to you, but:
- Honda builds cars to fight with Suzuki/Daihatsu minicars, but also with American and European mass-volume sellers like GM, Ford, Peugeot or Renault, and at the same time they want to challenge the likes of Audi-BMW-Mercedes.
- Take motorbikes, and again, they challenge Chinese automakers on cheap developing-countries' bikes, but also Piaggio/Aprilia in the small arena in Europe, Harley with their customs, the other Japanese manufacturers with their bigger sports bikes, BMW with their long distance road-bikes, and so on.
- Take car's powerplants, and they are in every single front: gasoline/bio-diesel/ethanol, diesel, hybrid, FuelCell, NGV's, HCCS,...
- Take racing Gerald since you like it so much, they are involved in everything from mountain-bikes to F1, through boat racing and MotoGP (all classes). They are simply "everywhere" like no one else.
They are even producing solar cells and jet planes (and I forgot all their power-products because I don't know much about that particular market).
What I am truly amazed at is that Honda still manages to challenge every single one of those actors at the same time , and it's good enough to keep the pace in most fronts. That should shock specially American business people that have been bathing in modern theories stating that in order to be successful one should focus in a core business and kill everything else, because there is no other way to remain competitive in today's world.
- Why has Mercedes decided to sell Chrysler? Simple, for the same reason they are considering selling Smart, and it was again in one of their top man's words at Frankfurt: "Let's forget about those adventures and focus on what we really know how to do best: luxury cars".
- Take Toyota, as rich as they are, they decided to focus in hybrids, and now that diesels seem to regain the stage, what are they doing? Simple, just buy a stake in Isuzu and ask them for it. They needed minicars, what did they do? Simple, bought Daihatsu. They need a small car with a small diesel for Europe, what do they do? Simple, build up a collaboration with PSA and make it together (Aygo, 106, C1), and so on...
- Take BMW, they were forced by European Union laws to bring down their CAFE, what have they done? Simple, buy a famous small car brand (Mini), throw away the rest of the company (Rover), and then bring up some collaboration with makers of smaller cars like PSA to jointly design and produce the engines you need (Mini).
- Take even Airbus (another huge company). How did they get in the front? and why are they having problems? I remember a 2005 conference where their R&D head was talking about his company's history. He was explaining how they reached the top by innovative engineering, and how with time and hundreds of planes to deliver they became more conservative, and production and lawyer's departments had taken most of the company leaving R&D to its minima. He was by then telling us that they should try to regain momentum; apparently they weren't fast enough.
Well, I am myself waiting for Honda to give up on something, or to start losing ground, specially now that their rivals are more and more focusing in their core business, and that is going to be more and more difficult to challenge them in the years to come. But there is a secret to that formidable ability to stay at the front, and it's the fact that until now Honda has been able to make the most of the synergies between their different business areas, using the knowledge acquired in any particular area to bring something new to another one. That synergy is what makes it possible to be like it is, but for how long?
So, you should be more surprised of Honda still being able of bringing innovative stuff than for the fact that they are not able to bring more new stuff in a particular one. That may be because Honda's core business doesn't seem to be cars, nor motorbikes, nor boats, but actually more like "industrial innovation".
In Spanish we say "don't ask a lemon-tree for apples"... Well, that's a very short way of resuming everything I wrote here.
(most people asking for apples it's because they don't know it's a lemon tree..., otherwise they may start eating the lemons and enjoy how good they are, or simply go somewhere else to find some apples...)
Yes, Honda is very independent. The only company I remember them collaborating on anything with (besides the companies they're distributing the HondaJet with, and the extremely modified chassis for their Acura ALMS racecar), is GM supplying diesel engines to Honda (in exchange for Honda's V6s in Saturns) for a while. Obviously that stopped when Honda came out with the N22.
Even when Honda selects locations for building new plants they do things their own way. In Alliston, Ontario, for example, I believe that they (Toyota may or may not have for their Cambridge plant) were the only company that didn't accept government "help", stating instead that they'll choose a site that they feel is right for them. It's one thing that Honda fans can be extremely proud of, and that's the independence of Honda. Of course, they need to be careful that they don't become arrogant and lose touch with the consumer, but at the moment I don't think that's been the case. They're a bit slow in the product roll outs sometimes, and Acura needs a bit of work, but so far Honda is doing well.
Daniel way to totally miss the point about what we're complaining about with the US market.
No one is asking for huge increases in performance. The CBR600RR and 1000RR are already way beyond impractical for street riding. And yet from the US perspective that is the only thing Honda cares about, increasing the performance of the CBRs 1% each year. And yet none of it matters cause they are getting creamed in AMA Superbike as badly as they're getting creamed in Formula 1.
They're totally missing categories of bike that ARE practical, and ARE in demand here in the US.
If they already had the CBR125 in Japan it was a trivial effort to sell it in Canada.. that was a good move.
Making a motard is a similarly easy idea. The XR230 is a nice bike but it doesn't do the motard thing at all.. To make it a motard you'd need to change the brakes, change the suspension, change the wheels, and change the tires. Most people will just go buy the Suzuki instead, it will cost far far less.
We can't just bring the better Hornet/599 over from Europe. There is this slight issue of getting a registration & inspection.
My rants about the VFR have little to do with performance. They need to ship it with options that make it even more comfy for touring, like heated grips, electrical accessories, etc.. and make it cheaper to maintain.. if it had 200 horsepower & came from Italy it would be tolerable, but it doesn't. The VTEC functionality is universally hated here, because every 16k miles you pay almost 10-15% of the original cost of the bike for the scheduled maintenance. (NOT including tires)
They need to make something distinctive that stands them out from the other manufacturers.. traditionally they have had that kind of product in the US market. Right now the Gold Wing is about the only thing standing out in any way other then reliability.
CarPhreakD wrote: That's going a bit far. Honda needs to update the VFR, which they have not done (and which many rumours point to). However, to compare an unupdated bike to others is simply ridiculous.
Well when Honda leaves their flagship model unupdated for so long what can you do but compare it to the competition? You can't put the competition up against the next VFR because it doesn't exist. Its the same problem we had with the NSX. Great car, but it got a bit too long in tooth and the competition moved on. Not that I think Honda will let it go that far with the VFR but it's redesign is a bit overdue.
I can agree though that the 600RR and 1000RR are probably models that move more volume not to mention the fact that they are the two major production racing platforms.
Another thing: While Supermotos may be popular in New England, in Canada I don't see many of them around. Honda has (wisely) chosen to bring over a CBR125R instead, and those were sold out before they were even delivered! Now that Honda has a new fanbase, they need to follow it up with a 250-400 cc bike for all these new riders to move up to. I have no doubt in their mind that they're plotting something, perhaps a new CBR or a small sports-tourer.
I talked about that very point with their marketing VP here (since retired). He was saying that it might be useful to have a 400 so that shorter riders and women have an easier place to start if they want to ride something sporty.
Doesn't the CRF230L that was just announced count as a supermotard? It's a dual-sport... It looks to be a great and reliable bike for beginners, so it's the start of something. I believe that Honda would do well to focus on the lower displacement end of their lineup to attract more new riders into the sport, especially as motorcycle sales in North America have been falling as baby boomers start to retire. Then they could dedicate more resources into updating their larger motorbikes.
Nah a supermoto has smaller wheels, bigger brakes, and lower more stiffly sprung suspension. Oddly enough Yamaha just announced a street-legal supermoto for next year but its a 250. Seems a bit strange since one of the downsides of supermotos is that they don't have much power. A 250 single is probably going to be rather slow. I'm still mulling over picking up the Aprilia SXV 4.5 but the reason I waited was because I was concerned about reliability. Now that its been out for awhile I guess I'll do some research on it again.
You can have a 599 anytime... if you're willing to pay for it. It's shipped from Italy, crunch the numbers on bringing it here...
Yeah its a shame that the exchange rates make selling the 599 here a difficult financial proposition.
Also the fact that Honda does a lot of innovative things across the board from aircraft to genetically-modified algae is not lost on me. And maybe the reason Honda hasn't taken advantage of some new product segments is because they're tight on personnel resources who are tied up helping expand into emerging markets.
But my feeling is that part of the reason Honda hasn't delved into some segments is because they are being conservative and trying to wait to see how things play out, rather than setting the pace. This is where big companies have trouble keeping up with little companies. With big companies there's always the temptation to play it safe and protect the profit they have rather than go after new risks and new potential profit. Small companies on the other hand have to differentiate, because they can't hope to compete with big companies on some products.
So for instance, it would be stupid of Ducati to try to make a cookie cutter 600 cc inline 4 supersport to compete with the big 4 Japanese because the big 4 are probably going to do it better and cheaper. So Ducati makes V-twin sport bikes. For a car example look at Mazda. They could try to beat the Accord directly but instead they changed the focus of the 6 to be more sporty than the Accord, which helps them carve a rather nice niche for themselves.
I'm not asking for Honda to run out and make all manner of bike just to cover all the bases but they are obviously ignoring supermotos and I think they could stand to be a little more different with their sport bikes. Even if it just meant coming out with a HRC edition Fireblade every few years (a real performance variant, not a paint job).
I've talked to American Honda people before and they've said that they don't think the supermoto market is big enough or that they think for a street supermoto to be successful it needs more power (a la Hypermotard and KTM950SM). I think Suzuki has proven that you don't need to make a big street supermoto to have a successful bike. And as I said, Honda already makes the XR400SM in Japan so its not like they need to do a whole lot engineering to get a supermoto to market here.
As for the product differentiation with V4's or V5's or V-Twins or what have you, I know that this stuff takes money and I'm sure Honda is reluctant because they don't want to make an expensive motorcycle that no one will buy. But I think they can make a more expensive motorcycle that people will buy. And I think that having products that stand out as uniquely Honda can only help the brand.
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