woa! thats some great (tho unexpected) news. the tl-s on paper shouldn't have won, especially by that much. FF instead of FR, 287 hp vs 306+. but once again, honda chassis tuning prevails over massive pony power. Plus Keiichi Tsuchyia, probably drove the snot out of the TL-S just like he does all Honda's in the best motoring video's... that man loves him some Honda Powahhh! :D
I am utterly shocked. While the IS350 chassis is not particularly racy, it is pretty stable. And big Willow is not a track that requires a lot of shifting (hence the auto shouldn't be a huge problem). For the TL to be able to pull that much of a gap at a hp track like big Willow is amazing. Kudos Acura!
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p.s. - interesting that the RDX ran a 1:44. I'll have to take Project RDX up there and see if we can break a 1:40 now with my amateur ass behind the wheel :)
Interesting results. If it were me (a novice at the race track) I'de probably get similar ordering with slower lap times. I feel very artificial driving an auto. Tap the steering mounted shifters, did it shift? did it not? what gear am i in? did I tap it twice or 3 times? shoot gotta look down at the dash again for the digit gear display. Whoops there goes the turn.
I wonder if the pros suffer from the same thing initially. I can't explain how the lighter, more powerful RWD IS came in after the S. I'll take the manual Type-S any day. Love that car.
Cars were driven by professional driver Keiichi Tsuchiya. Supposedly, a well known and regarded driver and generally praises RWD cars over FWD.
Someone translated a portion of the text:
"The final corner at Willow Springs is a high speed corner where you go in at 4th gear with no braking. The speed range for the final corner at Tsukuba Circuit is no where close to the one at Willow Springs. Even professional American drivers couse-out or crashes when exiting the corner at times. Even at corners like this, I was able to step on the gas with the TL. Seems like the TL never goes under (understeer i think). The nose of the car smoothly shifts towards the inside, it is amazing... As I drive the TL more and more I ask myself "wait was this car a FR(front engine, RWD)?" The performance is unbelievable for a FF."
It would be great if someone translated the whole thing... Toyoda? :)
i alwaws thought this would be the end-result.......
when i drive a car as good as the si.... and I understand the concept of a race-car thats FWD ... a car like the si that does not like no for an answer nor does it seem to like to lose in anything called a twist.... how can I believe that the pitiful g35 and luxury is can beat the mean machine tls??
Did the 330/335 broke down and wasn't able to make it to this shootout? I guess it wouldn't have mattered anyway since the G35 offers superior driving dynamics and is a more hyper vehicle to the Bimmer.
I'm a little surprised by the results.
The other guy in the picture looks like Sam Mitani from R&T, so it would have been pretty tricky to be too biased. Tsuchiya's driven a lot of cars before, so he ought to know what he's doing. (BTW, this seems to be all over the forums, Infiniti, Lexus, etc....no explanation or suggestion of funny business yet).
Here's a short clip with Tsuchiya at the track
http://www.xanga.com/TL_Type_S It's a different layout than the one in the scan, maybe you guys who have been there can compare (it clocked something in the 1:32's). Supposedly it beat the 350Z on the same layout by 3 sec. How's a Civic Si compare at the same?
I drove the IS350 on a closed course before, and frankly, I would've taken the 328i sedan that I drove at the same time. The IS350 has no feel. In a straight-line on the street, the G35 felt a lot faster, the IS350 was good, but it didn't feel a lot better than the TL that we tried the same day on the same streets, so I'm betting a real-world TL-S would be close. And in handling, no comparison.
However, given the layout of that course, I am really surprised the TL-S could've gotten that far ahead of the G35 or even the IS350.
The video is from the Streets of Willow. It is a much tighter, more technical track (over twice the number of turns). It looked like they took one of the cutoffs which we normally don't run, so I can't comment on the lap time. But I was surprised by the oversteer! My G35 was much harder to get to oversteer on the downhill corner. Then again, the TL has always had super-sharp turn in. Looks like the TL-S is even better.
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p.s. - I mentioned these lap times to a couple of Honda engineers I had dinner with tonight. One of them was intimately involved with the Thunderhill 25 hour race winning TL race car. They were both shocked by the results.
I wonder if the gearing of TL-S vs the that of the IS350s made some difference here.
Also how much power do the 3 cars put down at the wheels as from what I understand theres less drivetrain loss in a FWD vehicle.
Even still its hard to believe and just makes me salivate to think what a FR TL could possibly do.
Are there clips of the other vehicles driven by Tsuchia-san, or Sam?
Also, that doesn't sound like the BMI voice-over guy, what video is this? I might want to order it.
The IS350, thanks to a 6-spd auto, has about the same speed in each of the first 4 gears as the TL-S. It's really a good powertrain. The G35 is geared a little tall. They raised the redline by 500 rpm, but kept the gear ratios from the old motor. If they would have tightened it up it would be faster in a straight line.
Power wise, the IS350 on my dyno put down 50 hp more than the last base TL. While the new TL-S is much stronger, even the Acura guys admit it isn't as quick as the IS350.
After seeing the video I think it all comes down to chassis. If the TL-S rotates that well, it could be very fast around the racetrack with a good driver.
I know conditions very heavilly from day to day, and Tsuichiya has one more time attacks and endurance races under his belt than most of the weekend track day crowd that has a chance to lap Willow Springs, but does anyone have more times for more cars at Willow Spings? NoTypeR laps there, maybe he has a link to a website of average and top times, or maybe he can tell us how fast his G35 goes with him behind the wheel - so we have a rough time differential - and then his lap times in the Civic Si, S2000, TOV's project Civic Si, and NoTypeR's full race S2000?
I'd love to see a average lap time list for each car in Honda's lineup, on any track.
Can't wait until Tsuichiya or Gan-san does a comparo with the S2000 CR!!!
Seeing the vid, looks like the driver lost a lot of precious seconds squirming around those turns. Still, of the 3 cars tested, the TL-S is off the bat the most track-ready.
I'm not surprised at all, for years I have been saying that the TL has handling that is as good if not better and with higher limits than any of the RWD competition. Which is especially true when shod with good summer rubber. What is surprising is how handily it handed them their ass given the TL's lower HP and definitely slower 0-60 times. The new TL has most have monster midrange and high end power. Well done ACURA now lets see if you can do the same for the RL DAMNIT! AN RL TYPE S is the elixir that is urgently needed to pump up those sales. Have the car kick some 545 butt in a couple of printed snob articles (forbes and so on) and watch those limp sales go up!
Just FYI, the TL-S's 0-60 times are now in the low 5s, which is at least as quick if not quicker than the G35. The IS350 can do it in a touch under 5 secs.
Celicamaro wrote: Did the 330/335 broke down and wasn't able to make it to this shootout? I guess it wouldn't have mattered anyway since the G35 offers superior driving dynamics and is a more hyper vehicle to the Bimmer.
Did you mean break down? I haven't seen any good articles that puts the 335i against these cars yet. But with 6 speed manual and RWD I think it would pull the best numbers with SP.
Heck the 328i with SP outhandles the G35 so a 335i will no doubt be tough to beat.
The TL will be at a disadvantage on the hole shots due to its FWD layout. However, its nice to see that even with that shortcomming, its turning out number that are competitive with more powerfull competition by a few tenths. It looks like honda's torque reduction software "fix" works nicely. Again, as we all know, the power at mid and high RPM's must be quite a rush.
I finally test drove an s2000 this weekend and must confess that I was not totally enamored of the all or nothing character of the engine, I have gotten used to the TL's and RL's much broader torque character. Of course I loved everything alse about the S, its trully a thrilling ride. The only improvement I would make on a future iteration of it is to dump the 4 for either a turbo 4 like the RDX or a small high revving six so as to broaden the torque curve considerably, I don't want to kill the high rev thrill, but it would definitely be very well served by much stronger performance when not on the cam. After driving the S I really think that a more luxurious version with a more polished powertrain with similar or better straight line performance would make a killer Acura to make big inroads in the Boxster market.
kiwikungfu wrote: Are there clips of the other vehicles driven by Tsuchia-san, or Sam?
Also, that doesn't sound like the BMI voice-over guy, what video is this? I might want to order it.
I e-mailed BMI and asked them about this and they said they will have some video clips with this footage coming soon. I would imagine this footage will be included in a BMI VTEC DVD at some point as well.
I've never lapped my G35 at Big Willow. However, here are some comparison times:
Honda Challenge H4 cars (130 whp, D-series, Toyo RA1s, 2200 lbs average) lap in about a 1:34
The best Honda Challenge H1 cars (including our S2000 race car) generally lap in the 1:30 range on a cool day on RA-1s. On slicks our car dipped into the high 1:20's.
A street tire equipped S2000 with a very good driver, coilovers and a wing will go 1:33-1:34.
A Porsche GT3 race car on slicks with a decent driver (but no pro) will go 1:22-1:23 at Big Willow.
Times really depend on temps too. Running on a cool day (I don't know when they ran, but it looked cool) can net you lap times 1-2 seconds quicker than a 100F summer day.
Either way, a 1:36 bone stock is pretty darn good. Most people hit a mental block at about 1:40 in any car because you really have to start pushing through turns 8 and 9 which are fast, flat and have few reference points. H1 cars will enter Turn 8 at 135-145 mph (some are up in the 150 mph range now), and then you have to get slowed down to around 100 mph or so for Turn 9 and watch your line so that you don't run out of track. Screw up the exit from 9 and you kill your straightaway speed - that can cost you 1 second or more on your laptime.
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p.s. - I don't turn very good times at Big Willow. Turn 8-9 scares me and I slow down a lot.
Just found out this was done back when they did the American Togue event. It was very, very cold that day. My thermometer on the G35 was showing 20F on the way up at 9am. By noon I think the temps were in the 40s or lo 50's. That would explain some of the absolute speed the cars showed (Willow is at 1/2 mile of elevation, so NA cars do tend to suffer a bit on power up there, but cold air really helps compensate). It does nothing to diminish the performance of the TL-S relative to the competition though.
notyper wrote: Just found out this was done back when they did the American Togue event. It was very, very cold that day. My thermometer on the G35 was showing 20F on the way up at 9am. By noon I think the temps were in the 40s or lo 50's. That would explain some of the absolute speed the cars showed (Willow is at 1/2 mile of elevation, so NA cars do tend to suffer a bit on power up there, but cold air really helps compensate). It does nothing to diminish the performance of the TL-S relative to the competition though.
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and it may offset some of the advantage that the IS350 seems to display on really hot days (less variability perhaps). Hondas always love bitter cold air - i can feel a pretty big difference even with a 20 degree differential, particularly when the temps start getting above 70F.
Judging from the track map shown in the article, and going by what Shawn says in his posts, perhaps the biggest advantage gained by the TL-S is in turns 8 and 9.
With a high speed corner that has difficult reference points, a FWD car with good balance would be easier to commit through the turn, with it's ability to put the power down during the cornering process without disturbing the balance of the car too much.
High speed corners where the front wheels aren't being taken to the edge of adhesion under power is where FWD have their greatest advantage on a track.
Maybe Keiichi Tsuchiya's unfamiliarity with the layout, road tyres [I assume] and track layout all came together to give the TL-S its advantage.
I remember flying over Willow Springs several times in very cold days.
Did you see two C17s in tight formation?
notyper wrote: Just found out this was done back when they did the American Togue event. It was very, very cold that day. My thermometer on the G35 was showing 20F on the way up at 9am. By noon I think the temps were in the 40s or lo 50's. That would explain some of the absolute speed the cars showed (Willow is at 1/2 mile of elevation, so NA cars do tend to suffer a bit on power up there, but cold air really helps compensate). It does nothing to diminish the performance of the TL-S relative to the competition though.
Did you mean break down? I haven't seen any good articles that puts the 335i against these cars yet. But with 6 speed manual and RWD I think it would pull the best numbers with SP.
I'm sure 6spd/300hp and 300ft lb of torque would be fast. But
there has already been two separate press document showing the BMW has quit during a shootout. The first was Car/Drivers 330 which had electronic issues that caused car to die and couldn't complete any tests. So C/Ds testers to have to rely on previous test datas from another test at a different location, different temp/condition etc. when the car was working. The BMW still won over everyone despite not being able to post any performance numbers.
The second is I believe is Motor Trend or Autoweek where the 335 coupe went into limp mode cuz it couldn't handle the heat of track duty. But like I said, it wouldn't have matter anyway. They concluded that the G37 was superior to the 335 coupe in every performance way except straight line where they are both equally matched.
xman wrote: Heck the 328i with SP outhandles the G35 so a 335i will no doubt be tough to beat.
You are referring to the C/D shootout where 328 won the comparo against the brand new g35 sedan? If U look at all the stuff that don't matter(refinement/smooth ride/less sporting attitude and feel) in a performance shootout, then the 328 won. Everything else, the G35 totally destroyed the 328, it even cost less too. C/D likes to do stupid trollish tests like that cuz it gets internet forums buzzing and ultimately sells more magazines.
Their latest issue had the FWD 200hp AUDI TT totally embarassing the new 07 306hp 350Z. Again, if one looks closer, the Z leaves the AUDI in the dust in every performance category. The AUDI beat the Z cuz it had 2 backseats to the Z's none. The AUDI cost almost 10grand more but rides better, gets better fuel economy and has a much much upscale interior that has already developed squeaks and rattle. The Z is over a full faster second to the quarter mile over the AUDI and matches the Shelby Mustang at 13.7sec. The Z also beat all 4 contestants overall time at the track, yet it came in third cuz it wasn't refine enough and didn't have a useless backseat like the AUDI. C/D even has the balls to declare the AUDI more fun to drive.
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