I've said for some time that when you have more than three or so clearly defined models, alphanumerics start to be a problem. You think your average person can keep TSX-RSX-RDX-MDX straight?
Time to go back to real names. This would probably help RL sales as well. Dumbest thing Acura ever did was get rid of "Legend" and "Integra." (Losing "Vigor" wasn't so bad, though.)
i agree, at least for other brands like Infiniti, the lettering goes in order (G being entry, followed by M and then Q). A lot of people doesn't even know the diff between TL and TSX
I sort of agree. I have a huge problem keeping up with Mercedes model names. C-class, S-Class, whatever else they've got. I basically know the C is compact, S is the larger sedan, but it all seems unecessary. Lexus does the same thing. BMW I've got no problem with, because the car's series number ascends with price and size, basically.
I know Acura adopted this system to match up more with MB and Lexus, which are their supposed targets, but I've never been a fan of the whole alphabet soup system to begin with.
I think you'll find that all the editors here pretty much agree with you. We've had this discussion on and off since about MY00.
The idea, as you state, was basically to create some of the same brand recognition vs. model recognition that Mercedes, and too a lesser extent, BMW enjoy. The problem, IMO, was that Acura went about that all wrong. You have to build the brand up to the desired reputation level first before you change the names to emphasize the brand. Otherwise all you're doing is emphasizing where you're at now - IOW, reinforcing the brand image you're trying to supercede.
This was especially odious when they got rid of names like Legend and Integra that carried so much weight in the marketplace. Add in the fact that the names are not easily abbreviated (when we take our G35, I say to my fiance "we'll take the G - can't do that with the RDX really) nor do they have a clear structure easily discernible by the average consumer and you have an issue.
notyper wrote: The idea, as you state, was basically to create some of the same brand recognition vs. model recognition that Mercedes, and too a lesser extent, BMW enjoy. The problem, IMO, was that Acura went about that all wrong. You have to build the brand up to the desired reputation level first before you change the names to emphasize the brand.
Yep.
It has been a revelation to me lately (more so now that I own a TL than before) that a lot of people don't associate Acura with Honda. And that is not a good thing. It won't be a stretch to assume that AHM believes Acura would sell on laurels earned by Honda and the respect people have for the brand. Well, not if they don't know Acura is made by Honda!
Acura needs to be marketed properly, not as an upscale Honda, but a brand on its own, with its own identity. And this will require aggression on Honda's part, to instill things that they try to avoid with Honda lineup.
While using powerful engines is a good start, can't win sales if those engines are coupled to poor gearing when the competition is busy being overly (and mostly excessively) aggressive.
"So what if MDX has 300 HP? A 260 HP X5 feels just as powerful" is going to be a common statement after a test drive. Well, it already is, and applies to RL too. Therein lies the problem, AHM's inability to market its product properly, and appeal to people that know little to nothing about Acura.
I don't have a degree in marketing, but that doesn't make me shy away from making a claim that I could do a better job than people at AHM seem to.
It has been a revelation to me lately (more so now that I own a TL than before) that a lot of people don't associate Acura with Honda. And that is not a good thing. It won't be a stretch to assume that AHM believes Acura would sell on laurels earned by Honda and the respect people have for the brand. Well, not if they don't know Acura is made by Honda!
Acura needs to be marketed properly, not as an upscale Honda, but a brand on its own, with its own identity. And this will require aggression on Honda's part, to instill things that they try to avoid with Honda lineup.
I'm a bit confused but it seems these two statements you made contradict one another. On the one hand you are saying people don't associate Acura with Honda and then you go on to say that Honda shouldn't market Acura as an "upscale Honda." I think that is exactly the problem. People associate Acura with Honda too much so instead of feeling like they drive a separate luxury entity, they just dismiss Acura as an "overpriced Honda" etc. Whereas you could never convince a Lexus owner they are driving an "overpriced Toyota." What Toyota has done with Lexus marketing wise really highlights to me how Honda has lost direction with Acura.
Acura had something great going in the early 90's and it just seems like their direction fell apart. I know it seems trivial, but what exactly is Acura's slogan? Hasn't Lexus always used "The Passionate Pursuit of Perfection"? Acura used to have "Precision Crafted Performance" and now it's "Advance" and whatever they've used in between. It just seems like there is no connection at all to their past for consumers to relate to.
Honda F1 Racing wrote: I'm a bit confused but it seems these two statements you made contradict one another. On the one hand you are saying people don't associate Acura with Honda and then you go on to say that Honda shouldn't market Acura as an "upscale Honda." I think that is exactly the problem. People associate Acura with Honda too much so instead of feeling like they drive a separate luxury entity, they just dismiss Acura as an "overpriced Honda" etc.
I was going to address that aspect, but decided to hold on to it until someone brought it up and you did.
There are two groups of people. One that is aware of Acura being a Honda, and the other that doesn't have a clue. The latter group reduces the chance for Acura finding new customers.
The former group includes those that understand and appreciate Acura/Honda, and those that know but don't, for sometimes obvious reasons, badge worship or whatever. And then there are those that might but don't go for it for lack of substance in Acura's marketing strategy.
Addressing this lack of substance might be something Acura needs to focus. Not only for the people in the former group, but also the latter. It helps to improve perception. Honda as a brand doesn't need it, because people KNOW. Acura, OTOH, hasn't been properly marketed.
This has nothing to do with alphanumeric designations to the cars. In fact, changing names too frequently can hurt. I say, stick to it, just market the products better. Alphanumeric designation doesn't hurt Honda in its motorcycle marketing, or with S2000, or with NSX. TL does just fine, TSX is doing a wonderful job on its own. MDX has sold well. The only subpar vehicles have been RL and RDX, and the reason isn't in the name, but how market perceives them to be.
Alphanumeric designation doesn't hurt Honda in its motorcycle marketing
As owner of 2003 GL1800 can tell you that Honda Goldwing has about a 10x advantage in name recognition over GL1800. Think about Harleys too, got a FLFTS or a Fat Boy. Shadow Spirit or VT750C2, and didn't the Nighthawk used to be a CB250?
It only in speed lines where numerics rule, and always have, because its about speed and power...
Here is an old repost....
I own a Legend (cool!). Would you like to cruise in my Legend (yeeeaaass!!!). Its an Acura, the Legend! (gotta have it)!
I have an RL (well you better call the doctor then). Would you like to ride in my RL (what's that? a helicopter or something?). Nothing faster than an RL (just take two with water). My RL rocks!! (They just beat Manchester United, 2-0).
Try to say Acura RL ten times fast, you'll sound like an idiot. If you do the juvenile impersonation of a Chinese national unable to properly pronunciate an "r", now try to say Acura RL.
---------
Its an Integra (I know what that is, nothing else sounds or looks like it!). Integra Type-S, yes, sounds like a hand-crafted precision stainless alloy surgeon's knife. The Integra is the cheapest luxury plate car in the world--- who cares!!!
I have an RSX (sounds like "I am having oral sex"). Want to ride in my Acura RSX? (she thinks you are talking about the NSX, and the downfall is set!). My RSX is hot! (then why did you get divorced!?). My ex-boyfriend is an arse and I'm an RSX!!
Would you prefer the name Honda Rebel or Rune or Shadow or Rebel over Honda VTX? How about Honda changing CBR600RR to say, Honda Piranha or something. Nobody seems to complain about NSX ("sport" has nothing to do with it). How about TSX? Lets hope Honda resurrects CRX but chooses to call it Jazz or City or something like that. Alphanumeric designations don't sound good, right?
"Legend" certainly has a great ring to it, as did "Prelude". I love "Accord" too. "Integra"? Not sure about that. In fact, I'm getting lost in the glut of "names" that automakers keep coming up with... Aspen, Colorado, Durango, Tundra... waiting to see if someone uses "Taiga".
What Acura needs isn't in the name. In fact, thinking that would take us back to mid-90s when the focus shifted from cars to names. I have no issue with RSX, CSX, TSX, TL, RL, CL, NSX, MDX, RDX or whatever, as long as these vehicles deliver what they are supposed to.
In fact, I don't like "TL Type-S" or "TL-S". I would rather leave "sportiness" to "SX" models and while "L" could focus on luxury and comfort.
It has been a revelation to me lately (more so now that I own a TL than before) that a lot of people don't associate Acura with Honda. And that is not a good thing. It won't be a stretch to assume that AHM believes Acura would sell on laurels earned by Honda and the respect people have for the brand. Well, not if they don't know Acura is made by Honda!
Acura needs to be marketed properly, not as an upscale Honda, but a brand on its own, with its own identity. And this will require aggression on Honda's part, to instill things that they try to avoid with Honda lineup.
I'm a bit confused but it seems these two statements you made contradict one another. On the one hand you are saying people don't associate Acura with Honda and then you go on to say that Honda shouldn't market Acura as an "upscale Honda." I think that is exactly the problem. People associate Acura with Honda too much so instead of feeling like they drive a separate luxury entity, they just dismiss Acura as an "overpriced Honda" etc. Whereas you could never convince a Lexus owner they are driving an "overpriced Toyota." What Toyota has done with Lexus marketing wise really highlights to me how Honda has lost direction with Acura.
Acura had something great going in the early 90's and it just seems like their direction fell apart. I know it seems trivial, but what exactly is Acura's slogan? Hasn't Lexus always used "The Passionate Pursuit of Perfection"? Acura used to have "Precision Crafted Performance" and now it's "Advance" and whatever they've used in between. It just seems like there is no connection at all to their past for consumers to relate to.
The main reason you dont' hear about people talking about Lexus as 'overpriced' Toyotas is the lower number of models that overlap platforms. I think the only models that overlap are the Camry/ES330 and Land Cruiser/LX470 and 4Runner/LX?...
Wait a minute!!!!!!! They are overpriced Toyotas!!!!
As a Acura owner I don't see them as an overpriced Honda, but as the best part of the platform engineering family. However I think that having the RL off the same platform is inherantly wrong. (No big car to compete with Lexus)
I would agree that there is no brand message, and that hurts when your trying to win first time brand buyers.
I have something that will knock your socks off though:
The people who buy Acuras tend to be value enthusiasts. That is they like a performance vehicle but are also looking for value in an automobile purchase. Typically, they've done a lot lot lot of research before buying and know that Acura shares platforms with Honda, Infinity shares with Nissan, Lexus with Toyota, etc.
I doubt that the large percentage of people who buy Lexus would know this information. How many Lexus chat sites would you hear a discussion about the difference in K series motors, etc. However, these same people who buy Lexus were turned off by European reliability and resale value.
jgalvan1 wrote...."I would agree that there is no brand message, and that hurts when your trying to win first time brand buyers."
I think that Acura really has decided on a brand message. Starting with the 04 TL and then ramping it up with the RL, acura started saying "We're making gadgety, luxo-sport automobiles" instead of "You'll like our near luxury bargains down here at Acura." The problem is not enough people have noticed that yet because the change is rather abrupt. But once the next TSX comes out, then the next TL, a sharper styled RL, a knockout NSX, and MDX/RDX get public visibility people are going to start taking notice alphanumeric or not; the critics sure are.
We can already see future common elements revealed in rumors, concepts and it's two new SUV's:
-SH-AWD & sharp handling
-State of the art tech (with sensible implementation)
-Safety, Safety, Safety
-Higher, but fair prices
-Common bold design language
I think now those slightly higher prices are just enough where Acura can start to splurge in it's interior, styling, & R&D departments to give that little extra that luxury buyers demand. Watch out for the next decade or so, we could have a new Lexus on our hands (but less Toyota).
Actually what Honda should have done was rename the brand "Legend" instead of ditching it to go Acura-alpha. That one name, "Legend", had more brand equity than Acura has ever had.
As I was a Acura salesman for almost 8 years you are off the mark. The name Legend was the problem. People would say I have a Legend or a Integra, not I have an Acura like they say about the Benzs or the BMWs. Think about it you could be a POS C class and say I have a Mercedes or a 318 and say I have a BMW. They are saying the brand name whether you have the V12 S class or the kompressor C, it brings the more affordable models into the same prestige as the super expensive models. You can't sell more models if the only thing people hear is Legend. Those "entry level" models would never have sold as much as they have if they did not make Acura the name it is today.
You guys may not like it but it give immediate recognition and desire to new models a car company brings out. And since they have had great success with the TL and MDX I think it might have worked.
I have to agree that it's all in the marketing and not in the names. While I'm not a huge fan of the letter designations, I'm even less of a fan of walking into an Acura dealership and feeling like I'm in a Honda dealership or walking into an Acura dealership and seeing cars that seem to compete more with Mazda (TSX, RDX vs. 6, CX-7), Nissan/Toyota (TL vs. Maxima/Avalon) than seeing cars that compete with the 3-Series/C-Class/IS/G, 5-series/E-class/GS/M, etc. And what exactly does the RL compete with?
This is not to say that the TSX, RDX, TL are not great cars, they are and they sell well. But when I'm paying for a luxo or near-luxo vehicle, I want something different. BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and Infiniti all provide this. Audi, to a less extent, and they seem to be as lost as Acura.
Another topic is evolutionary styling. From the first time that the TL and RL came out till now shows just how lost the brand is... At least Acura has somewhat found a 5-point grille that seems to be somewhat signature; however, that's questionable on the new MDX. With BMW, you can go back a long ways and find the signature double kidney grille, same with Mercedes and their grille. Lexus has done pretty decent with the evolutionary effect. Look at the ES, the GS, and the LS. While the new versions look a lot crisper, you can still see the older version's influence. Infiniti has caught onto this quickly as well with the new G. This helps a car age gracefully in my opinion. I'm a littl concerned about the current TL. While it's a great design, where do you go with it?
Oh well, I could go on for a while, but that's enough ranting for now...
jgalvan1 wrote...."I would agree that there is no brand message, and that hurts when your trying to win first time brand buyers."
I think that Acura really has decided on a brand message. Starting with the 04 TL and then ramping it up with the RL, acura started saying "We're making gadgety, luxo-sport automobiles" instead of "You'll like our near luxury bargains down here at Acura." The problem is not enough people have noticed that yet because the change is rather abrupt. But once the next TSX comes out, then the next TL, a sharper styled RL, a knockout NSX, and MDX/RDX get public visibility people are going to start taking notice alphanumeric or not; the critics sure are.
We can already see future common elements revealed in rumors, concepts and it's two new SUV's:
-SH-AWD & sharp handling
-State of the art tech (with sensible implementation)
-Safety, Safety, Safety
-Higher, but fair prices
-Common bold design language
I think now those slightly higher prices are just enough where Acura can start to splurge in it's interior, styling, & R&D departments to give that little extra that luxury buyers demand. Watch out for the next decade or so, we could have a new Lexus on our hands (but less Toyota).
This is EXACTLY what Acura is doing, hence the new direction in its marketing slogan. ADVANCE.
Im my mind its a little too early to judge this new marketing direction, I'll wait for the next generation of Global acura models first. IF anything, bring the names back when we have a wicked new nsx and legend (that actually competes in the right segment).
Personally, while i prefer the old school names, now isn't the time to change all the models over. Do we really want the mid-nineties all over again?
As you are no doubt aware, there was a general clean out of sorts at Acura marketing in the mid 90s.
Dumping the name "LEGEND" was simply one of the most IDIOTIC, IMBECILE, STUPID, BONEHEAD decisions ever made by ANY company.
Only perhaps matched by Hewlett Packard moving their instrumentation divisions under the umbrella of Agilent.
Agilent? Hmmm don't you mean FLATULENT?
The Acura Legend, Vigor and Integra were a BRAND. OTOH, the RL, TL and RSX are something that few outside of automotive gearheadom understand.
I understand that AHM wanted people to think they owned an Acura not a Legend.
SO WHAT?
Sold zillions of Legend those clowns, even though they couldn't figure anything else the name and the car just sold itself... but now how many RLs do they sell?
Seriously, AHM needs to bring back the names:
RL...... Legend
TL...... Vigor
TSX.... Inspire
RDX.... Climax
MDX... Everest
TSC.... Integra
NSX... NoSex (as in "I can't afford a girlfriend with these car and insurance payments")
Serioulsy
NSX..... Zanardi
Now, doesn't that sound nice?
I got a Legend, bought my wife her Climax, my kids a couple of Integras and I got a Zanardi Type R for weekends.
And since you already taken Legend, go all the way, forget about those Raineers, McKinleys, Yukons, K2.... go all the way baby... forget stopping at the Ridgeline down by base camp, Go for the Summit, Go for an EVEREST.
Top of the World... baby... calling the car a Legend was a show of incredible COJONES... yep, sell them americans a japanese car for over twenty thousand... dang it if those things didn't sell like hot cakes.
And now what? RL? The company that once really led with its marketing got somehow emasculated.
I just can't figure it out.
notyper wrote: I think you'll find that all the editors here pretty much agree with you. We've had this discussion on and off since about MY00.
The idea, as you state, was basically to create some of the same brand recognition vs. model recognition that Mercedes, and too a lesser extent, BMW enjoy. The problem, IMO, was that Acura went about that all wrong. You have to build the brand up to the desired reputation level first before you change the names to emphasize the brand. Otherwise all you're doing is emphasizing where you're at now - IOW, reinforcing the brand image you're trying to supercede.
This was especially odious when they got rid of names like Legend and Integra that carried so much weight in the marketplace. Add in the fact that the names are not easily abbreviated (when we take our G35, I say to my fiance "we'll take the G - can't do that with the RDX really) nor do they have a clear structure easily discernible by the average consumer and you have an issue.
The problem was with a very wishy washy marketing group in North America that couldn't figure out what to do and an engineering controlled management Japan that would not listen to marketing realities in North America.
The problem was not with the name but the product lineup.
Acura started up with the Legend and Integra. Both cars sold very well, but when HMC decided to broaden the line they simply screwed up with the Vigor.
The Vigor was a nice product in I5 form but it simply didn't measure up for most people because it was tight in the interior. Hence the brand really got screwed up because there was no breadth to it. It should have been a V6 to start with.
Then the first RL came out competing with the first 3.2TL and that was a huge error. Whereas the 3.2TL was plush the RL was stark. Also, the 2.5TL should have never been contemplated because the engineering to support the longitudinal I5 ( as in the Vigor ) also robbed the V6 TL cabin of space.
Even today, you see the RL and TL fighting it out too, but that's another story.
Hence... if HMC/AHM had introduced a 3.0L V6 in 93 and allowed the Legend to grow in size, displacement and power today the RL, TL and RSX would not exist.
So, why did people say they had a Legend, not an Acura? Simple, because for people looking at a nice, mid luxo mobile, Acura only had a Legend, not a broad line of cars as Benz and BMW have.
If, OTOH, the Vigor and Legend had both provided a nice path upgrade path, and yes perhaps the Legend should have moved upmarket with a small V8 back in 95, then people would have owned an Acura first and a Legend second.
Oh, let's not even contemplate the 2.2CL? WTF were they thinking with that one?
AcuraSM wrote: As I was a Acura salesman for almost 8 years you are off the mark. The name Legend was the problem. People would say I have a Legend or a Integra, not I have an Acura like they say about the Benzs or the BMWs. Think about it you could be a POS C class and say I have a Mercedes or a 318 and say I have a BMW. They are saying the brand name whether you have the V12 S class or the kompressor C, it brings the more affordable models into the same prestige as the super expensive models. You can't sell more models if the only thing people hear is Legend. Those "entry level" models would never have sold as much as they have if they did not make Acura the name it is today.
You guys may not like it but it give immediate recognition and desire to new models a car company brings out. And since they have had great success with the TL and MDX I think it might have worked.
TonyE wrote: The problem was not with the name but the product lineup.
Exactly. Simply using the name Legend instead of 3.5RL in MY1996 would have done nothing to help. It was a mediocre attempt at best by Honda/AHM to "improve" Acura, and failed miserably.
What happened to the 1991 Honda FSX concept? Neither the AWD system, nor the 280 HP 3.5/V6 DOHC VTEC engine made it. Instead we got... 210 HP 3.5/V6 on a chassis that was designed for Toyota customers.
What happened to the aggressively styled 1995 CL-X concept? Styling on that car was years ahead of its time, instead we got another conservative (except for a different rear end treatment in the production CL). The 1995 Argento Viva concept?
I think Acura lost direction in the 90's because it wanted to be LEXUS. The 96 Acura RL wanted to be an LS400 and even Infiniti softened the Q45 in the mid 90's. Both cars were mushy and didnt live up to their predecessors performance.
The first 2.5/3.2TL's were Lexus ES300 cloans. From a distance you couldnt tell them apart. The side profile was almost indenticle because of the frameless doors. The first CL was bascially an Accord EX coupe with some fake wood and leather. It wasnt really a sporty car and it was so plain. Of course the next version of the CL was much better (I have one) but its still plain in the looks department.
I know this has been beat into the ground but it should be: TSX=3 Series, TL=5 Series and RL= 7 Series. This formula works well for BMW, Mercedes, Audi, even Lexus and Infiniti have caught on. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
A few suggestions for Acura:
1) Acura should have its OWN RWD platforms with of course the SH-AWD system available for say $2000. Honda says it doesnt have the resources to produce a RWD platform BUT they can produce a Jet and a humanoid robot? HMMMMM?
2) Revamp the dealerships and upgrade the dealer experience.
My local Acura dealer shares space with Pontiacs, there is NOTHING luxurious or out of the ordinary about it. The same salesman/saleswoman can sell you a $50k Acura RL or a $17K Pontiac G5! Thats just not right! My local Honda dealership is actually more upscale than the Acura dealer.
3) More performance, also refer to #1. Id kill for a J series powered 250+hp RWD Acura TSX. I think that the FWD platforms limit Acuras and Honda performance. It limits Acura because every other MAJOR contender in its class is RWD. It limits Honda performance because Honda cant step on Acuras toes (Accord vs TL). Think how much better both the TL and Accords performance would be if the TL was RWD and the Accord could move up to current FWD TL standards.
4) A V6 powered RWD performance luxury coupe for Acura (think G35C) and a higher performing RWD coupe off the same platform (think 350Z).
i totally disagree. acura made the right move in removing names that would otherwise compete with acura. having individual names runs contrary to brand recognition. when someone points at your car, the marketer wants them to say you own an acura, not a legend, not an integra. the name is really meaningless, it's the machine that's important, and a good machine will outlive a name. i own a g35 and people DO recognize that although similar in name to the sentra based g20 it is not the same car. it is its own car and stands on its own merit no matter what label is slapped on the trunk. what is important however, is what articles and people keep talking about and that is INFINITIs resurgence from obscurity.
an acura by any other name will drive just as well.
-bill shakespeare
TonyE wrote: The problem was not with the name but the product lineup.
Exactly. Simply using the name Legend instead of 3.5RL in MY1996 would have done nothing to help. It was a mediocre attempt at best by Honda/AHM to "improve" Acura, and failed miserably.
What happened to the 1991 Honda FSX concept? Neither the AWD system, nor the 280 HP 3.5/V6 DOHC VTEC engine made it. Instead we got... 210 HP 3.5/V6 on a chassis that was designed for Toyota customers.
What happened to the aggressively styled 1995 CL-X concept? Styling on that car was years ahead of its time, instead we got another conservative (except for a different rear end treatment in the production CL). The 1995 Argento Viva concept?
wow. theres a lot of of what could've have been. all great concepts.
The whole point of alpha numeral is for name portability in different part of the world. So you don't run into a problem like Buick recently - the Lacrosse.
Just bought an RDX; Love it. However, did not intend to purchase, was looking at CRV and Rav4. When my wife and I began kicking around the idea of looking at the RDX, we actually spent more discussing the name of the "new station wagon", rather than talking about the vehicle (we kept confusing with parts of other names, MDX & RSX). A good or vintage name does not improve a poor vehicle (e.g. Malibu), but hard to remember names, especially for people first exploringthe vehical, just causes lost focus.
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