Much ado has been made lately in this forum about Honda being a "small motor" company and how the new larger engines are a throw back and a lack of focus on core values.
While I agree that the motor in my 94 GSR was a lot more fun than the 3.2 V6 in my CL, the 3.5 in my 02 Odyssey and even my '99 Prelude's SH, I hark back to the days of a 77 Civic CVCC wagon:
HMC has always been an "efficient, green motor" company. In the late 70s, while everyone complained that they couldn't make reliable and efficient engines, Honda just went ahead and built a CVCC motor that had mileage and performance parameters that the other automakers could only dream of. That, plus high levels of quality and handling, make Honda what it is today.
At the time, the only way to make an efficient car, was to make it light. That meant that Hondas were particularly light weight cars and as such inherited traits that made them good handling to begin with.
Of course, that also meant that Hondas were not really mainstream cars until the public started to downsize and Hondas grew a bit larger -like the late 80s Accords and Civics. But, boy, were they fun: an 86 Accord LXi with a stick shift and pop up headlights would put away "sportier" cars in a heartbeat. Slowly, Hondas grew, acquired larger engines but kept offering manual transmissions which were required to keep them as green as possible.
Then, two years ago, HMC announced that within four years or so all Honda engines would be very green, like as in ULEVs or better for their cars. They led the pack by switching from two to four cycle motors accross all product lines: bikes, lawnmowers, power products, marine engines, etc.... and by pushing engine VTEC engine tuning and developing hybrids and fuel cells (first one purchased from Ballard, next gen to be built in house).
So I figure that HMC is not so much a maker of high revving, powerful motors, but rather a maker of clean, efficient engines. The fact that in the past they did this with small motors doesn't mean that their switch to larger, torquier engines in the US means a change of heart. If they can make this switch while reducing pollution and increasing efficiency, then this is good, as the cars become more acceptable to the general driving populace and increase the overall "greeness" of the automotive fleet.
When folks complain about the lack of Honda "performance" engines, they are focusing on this shift by the bread and butter lines. But when you look at production numbers, you can see that overall the number of high revving performance cars has not gone down. In fact the availability, range and depth of Honda performace cars has grown: RSX/RSX-S, S2000, CL-S, TL-S, Civic Si and NSX. This represents 7 models versus just four ten years ago: Integra GS-R, Civic Si, CRX Si and Prelude. Also in absolute numbers, the number of sport models sold is greater today than it was ten or twenty years ago. In performance numbers, every one of today's Hondas blow away the performace cars of ten years ago (except for the GS-R).
(Note that here I'm fudging the numbers for ten years ago because the GS-R and the CRX were not built at the same time, also the DelSol Si was really not that much of a sports car).
I realize -as a past owner of a 93 Vigor MT and 95 Accord EX MT, that the midrange models no longer carry the same "sportiness" of the past. Present engine technology has gotten better: the current models, with larger engines, are as efficient or more than their past counterparts and do this with more power, torque and room. Being heavier, however, also means their handling has suffered relative to previous models.
So, I guess that we are seeing a polarization of the HMC products. The mainstream models are now as green as ever without resorting to manual transmissions and high revving engines. Enthusists may bemoan this but the cars are selling better than ever.
On the other hand, we are seeing a wealth of truly fun to drive cars that are also quite green. These cars appeal to the hard core driving enthusiasts and sell in smaller numbers.
Which means that those of us who want a fast sedan, as in Honda's version of a Bimmer, are sort of stuck. Yup. I hope that the wild card of IMA will somehow alleviate this.
In conclusion, I postulate that HMC is keeping to its roots by pushing green cars, not by building high revving, I4 motors. If this means that its bread and butter cars are no longer seen as sporty as in the past, well that's fine, because efficiency and balance has always been the root qualities of Honda's products.
Overall, the Odyssey handles like no other minivan around and the MDX is quite good too. And the bread and butter cars do have well above average handling and power in their market niches.
The fact that the US Accord is no longer accompanied by F1 like sounds, well, I guess that is fine and dandy for the average consumer. If you want that, well, get an RSX or S2000.
Of course, I do mourn the passing of the Prelude......
And who knows what the IMA and tax credit wild card will do for the US Honda fleet?
I don't know if I'd even attempt to pigeonhole Honda as either. However, I certainly would lean more toward efficient than small.
I think the key thing to remember is that in the grand scheme of end results, displacement matters little. What really matters is power, torque, drivability, fuel economy, emissions and engine size. Note I said size, not displacement. And then remember that the J-series V6's are the smallest dimensionally (and probably the lightest) in their class. The only other way to get the power and torque required for mainstream vehicles would have been forced induction on a smaller motor, and we know that FI is not conducive to low emissions.
The fact that the new Civic is the same size (or larger) than our beloved 86 Accord (we had an LXi too Tony, our first Honda and we kept it for 15 years) is a bummer, but its what people demand in terms of space. And its also what the feds demand in terms of safety mandates. Rest assured if the govt allowed some more leeway in meeting crash standards (i.e. more flexibility in how you arrive at the same results) our cars would be smaller and lighter (at least from Honda).
Tony, I think you're absolutely right about Honda being right at the performance pinnacle in most of its classes. In reality, the TL was never designed to compete with the 3-series. Rather, it competes with teh I35, ES300, 300M and V70 and it does quite well against all those. And notice how in the latest MT the 4 yr old Accord V6 is the best handling car and 2nd in acceleration only to the new Altima (yet they placed the new Camry first, go figure).
In the end, I see most automakers moving towards Honda's path with, of course, their own unique approaches. But I firmly believe that for a certain class of cars, there is a market dictated "right size". We're seeing that now in engine sizes. For small, subcompact and compact cars, its 1.8-2.0 liters. For Mid-size sedans, its 2.5-3.5 liters with 3.0 being a very hefty median. This right size is dictated by power requirements, fuel efficiency and build cost. Honda has had to get a little larger in some cases, in others the competition has had to get smaller. But there is convergence.
In the end though, I think IMA is a useful technology, but I am wary of it for sporty applications. There is a price premium and a weight penalty. And the power is not the same as that derived from a gasoline engine. I can run at full power on a gasoline engine till I run out of gas. The batteries on the IMA don't last nearly as long. If you can run several miles flat out without draining the IMA, it shouldn't be on a sporty car. You'd be better off with a slightly bigger, heavier engine with extra tall gearing than with the weight penalty and part time power. I wouldn't mind IMA on every Accord and Civic out there (save a Type-R), but I don't think it has a place on cars liek the S2000 and NSX any time int he next 3-5 years.
First, I was able to get the CLS 6spd out in the curves last night, and took it three times through a set of switch backs in 2nd around 40-50 mph, in the high 5 / low 6 rpms, and the SOHC VTEC growl was unmistakebly present. I thought the car handled great, only revealing its size somewhat in the curves.
I've drove an 89 CRX Si for 11 years, prior to that had an 86 CRX. As I get older and my tastes and needs change, the CLS fits the bill as its an awesome performance car for where I'm at, just like the Si was when I was 20, and the prelude when I was 30 w no kids. Honda builds awesome performance cars, at a fair price, undeniably.
I wish they'd make an FR 4 door sedan with a muscular stance like the S2000 to compete w the BMW 3 series. The CLS is no real looker in my book, but like most Hondas, to me, its looks grow on you. I remember not liking the 2nd gen CRX's when they came out w the glass rear and no spoiler. Now, its a classic.
So how will IMA usage affect a sports car? The point of IMA is to incorporate a small engine that provides constant use power, an electric motor/capacitors that supply temporary extra ooomph, and a generator that recaptures some of the kinetic energy lost during braking.
There are several applications of IMA, racing and non racing. How will IMA affect top speed on a car?
(1) Cruising/driving on a road? Not much. You are not using max power and only for short passing may you need the IMA extra power.
(2) On a racetrack? In a race track you go through short bursts of flat-out acceleration followed by hard braking. I figured that IMA might be just fine if the regenerative power can be made quite efficient and if the motor is allowed to keep charging the batteries on the when you're not on the gas. I figure this means a motor that is always spinning during braking.... Hmmm, that would make a CVT with an external generator pickup system interesting.... The motor will keep spinning fast while the CVT changes gears so you slow down the car. The generator is attached to the crankcase. In this way you're using regenerative and uneeded engine power to quickly recharge the batteries. Mileage won't be so good. Can the battery pack be made light?
(3) On an oval? Frankly, IMA is hosed here....... Yep, get that little motor and generator out and put in a big ass 3.5 liter.
(4) On a dragstrip? Huh? IMA might just work but the batteries will be a reeeal drag. Perhaps you could hook up a quarter mile extension cord. Let's see, how heavy would be a 220V, 30A extension?...... How about a middle rail? ;-)
(5) Top speed racers?.... well, unless you're Rodney King in a Hyundai, an IMA is really not a good idea. You'll be toast when the LAPD catches up with you within five blocks.
(6) Profiling on Torrance Boulevard on Saturday Night? Hey, IMA is COOL, just think of how many more RACING DECALS you could put on your car when Jackson Racing and Comptech come out with Turbo IMAs this and that... Wow......;-))))))) Definitely IMA will be on the real useful side: you'll get good mileage so you can save $$$ on gas and buy your cute girlfriend/wife take out dinner at the Sushi Boy at Yaohan Plaza or the Kau Kau Korner in Marukai (hey that's really good food, bruddahs) ;-)))))))))
So there.... I think a sports car in a race track might be OK with IMA depending on weight penalties. But an oval, hot rod or top speed racer will most definitely need all of the power, all of the time and IMA will just not cut it. A sports car on the streets should be OK again depending on weight. And you'll keep your girlfriend/wife happy... or at least you'll save enough money on gas to afford a girlfriend/wife ;-)))))
Weight is very important in a road course. The lighter your car is, the easier it can change its direction of motion. Have you ever watched a Miata close in on a larger car in a corner? That's something to see :)
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