I don't forsee a Type-R model coming to America anytime soon, but surely Honda won't deny us forever. I suppose it all depends on how well it would sell. I'm not sure how many people would buy the NSX-R if it came to our market, but I thought the Integra-R sold well when it was available. (At least compared to the number of units produced.)
I know I'd buy a Civic, Integra, or Accord/TSX Type-R if one was available.
A serious question: What is your definition of a Type R Civic, Integra, or Accord, etc.?
The current Si is as close to a Type R we'll see around here in the states, and it could probably outrun most R's of the past with much better standard equipment and comfort.
As much as I'd like to see it happen, I seriously doubt the return of the Type-R badge in North America. The Type-R has only been placed on the Acura Integra which was a mistake IMO (i.e, having the Type-R to be an Acura).
Acura represents a sub-luxury, performance oriented division, but selling a stripped car without A/C or sound proofing means losing 1/2 of that image. But the problem there was that it was marketed as Acura, not Honda.
Meanwhile the EP3 Civic-R, DC5 Integra-R, and the 2nd NSX-R all had air conditioning (to my knowledge at least) they were all marketed as Honda products.
The only issue I have is with the EP3 Civic-R never making it to North America; instead we got a toned down "Si" model that missed several features. Then again, I believe that Japan didn't receive that Civic either.
The point I'm trying to make is that the biggest reason I believe that the Type-R won't make a return to North America is marketing. The Accord Euro-R and Integra Type-R are based off the TSX and RSX models from Acura in North America; I do not believe Acura would ever sell a car without sound deadening again.
While Honda could bring the new Civic-R to North America, it doesn't want to bring another hatch outside of the Fit. After all the Civic Si hatch "failed" in their eyes (another topic of discussion I'm sure) and the Fit is about to be introduced. Outside of the Mini Cooper and Mazda3, every well-known hatch in North America are entry-level vehicles or near that range; not exactly a group of performance vehicles.
Reflecting on the subject, I believe all Type-R models will be gone soon except Europe's Civic-R...hmm...
Notice I previously wrote "it could probably outrun most R's of the past with much better standard equipment and comfort."
Most means, most, but not ALL. Previous generation Accord R, for example.
I agree that the Type R badge will probably never make it here due to marketing and economics. People craze for race ready cars, but they don't put their money where their mouth is when it comes down to it.
jadm EM1 wrote: I don't forsee a Type-R model coming to America anytime soon, but surely Honda won't deny us forever. I suppose it all depends on how well it would sell. I'm not sure how many people would buy the NSX-R if it came to our market, but I thought the Integra-R sold well when it was available. (At least compared to the number of units produced.)
I know I'd buy a Civic, Integra, or Accord/TSX Type-R if one was available.
Any thoughts?
As long as the Type R brand lives on in Japan I don't think you can completely count it out here in the US, particularly if we have folks like John Mendel at the very top of AHM. If you haven't seen it yet, you may want to check out our interview with him at last year's Chicago Auto Show.
I'm not sure I understand the reason why they keep the Rs in Europe and Japan... I mean, Mitsubishi and Subaru took a long time to understand, but finally, they brought their super rally sedans here... Why does Honda keep waiting??? No answers... If someone can sell a 300hp 40k cdn$ impreza (and they are everywhere...), anyone could sell a super civic R!
I don't see a problem with the R nameplate and Acura. After all, BMW has the M3 CSL, Ferrari has the Challenge Stradale, and Porsche has the GT3.
It wouldn't make sense for a brand like Mercedes or Lexus since those two marques put luxury over performance but for Acura, who's aspiring to performance luxury much in the same vein (or is it vane?) as BMW it could be perfectly fine. Just leave off the big wing and you're golden.
Another route that could work is release Type-S Zero models. Lighter, stiffer, more power, but not quite the level of rawness as an R. Thinking NSX Type-S Zero.
JMU R1 wrote: IIt wouldn't make sense for a brand like Mercedes or Lexus since those two marques put luxury over performance but for Acura, who's aspiring to performance luxury much in the same vein (or is it vane?) as BMW it could be perfectly fine.
Er, Mercedes is no different on that point. AMG is the "in-house" tuner and its products are available in every Merc dealership... Or if you want to push it further, Brabus has also a tight connection with the brand (and Smart also).
For the definition question...
CMIIW, but I think the R's had all of these differences from the mainstream models
-more HP/ tweaked engine (usually higher redlines)
-revised gear ratios to match above
-LSD
-lightened car (less creature comforts)
-stiffened chassis
-stiffer shock settings/ better handling
-better brakes
Therefore, NVH and ride quality was generally beyond what most would put up with for daily use (according to the car mags) I personally had no qualms with my ITR for that, but then I knew what the sacrafice was..
The new Si, as good as it is still needs to appeal to the masses. Straight line numbers asides, it will still need to give up a little to be friendly to the pedestrians.
You can buy a Ridgeline Type R here in Calgary.. (dealer plastered stickers on a white unit) I didnt really have any good comments about that blasphemy, although I doubt the salesmen and customers really knew the root of my annoyance...
I'm not knocking the Si at all. It's the best Si Honda has ever brought to North America. I'm even considering purchasing one (if I can find one). But I would love to see the type-R nameplate and everything it represents back in America. I know Acura could pull it off if they wanted to. And the type-R production #'s are low, so it's not like it would replace a certain model. It would be offered as a performance edition of an existing model, giving enthusiasts (like us) a chance to own an engineering masterpiece.
I have a lot of respect for the Si and Type-S cars, but there's nothing like driving a Type-R.
franckv wrote: Er, Mercedes is no different on that point. AMG is the "in-house" tuner and its products are available in every Merc dealership... Or if you want to push it further, Brabus has also a tight connection with the brand (and Smart also).
AMG is still much cushier and softer than the M3 CSL and Challenge Stradale examples I used. AMG is about performance yes, but not taken to the extreme that the Type-R is (or the other two aforementioned cars).
I hear people refer to emissions and fuel octane rating as the main reason. Well from what I understand emissions are getting pretty strict in japan, close to the U.S.A. As far as fuel octane, the Celica GTS ran an 11.5:1 CR just like the DC5R and it didn't blow up. It is of course more complicated than that, but they could just pull out some of the timing for saftey if they wanted.
Nighthawk8Gen wrote: you guys wouldnt pay what honda would ask. or maybe some of you would , but not enough of you.
Exactly, because it would be a weekend toy for anyone but masochists. A disaster as a daily driver, no matter how you view it. Buy an Si, and start taking out anything that doesn't increase speed, and put Type R medallions where the Si badges are now. Joila! Type R
i tend to agree, JMU...a type R would create a LOT of buzz within the entusiast market, and honda is one of the very top brands when it comes to the aftermarket. the new Si even created a lot of buzz...imagine what something as hardcore as a type R would create.
I think a type R Civic, TSX or whatever would make a lot of marketing sense. The Si is made partially to create a buzz about the Civic and a type R does the same.
Look at the NSX. They create interest in Honda/Acura more than they generate profits and type R requires a lot less R&D than a whole new car.
I have heard many rumors from the Honda people in Ohio of the Type S returning to the Acura line up. As far as new model production, where I work, I find this information extremely accurate. However, I do believe that we will not be seeing a Type R in the future. The Next generation of Acura will be SH AWD...while Honda will see much more of the smaller less luxurious family. I read in the Honda press release in december that they will release Acura of Japan....presenting it as the Luxury Sport....and Honda as the Family oriented car... either way...if you want something like the civic type r...you will have to stay with honda...dont expect to see much from Acura in those lines anymore.
The entry level Acura next year will cost approx. 26k...that is a base TSX, Since Acura will stop production of the RSX
franckv wrote: Er, Mercedes is no different on that point. AMG is the "in-house" tuner and its products are available in every Merc dealership... Or if you want to push it further, Brabus has also a tight connection with the brand (and Smart also).
AMG is still much cushier and softer than the M3 CSL and Challenge Stradale examples I used. AMG is about performance yes, but not taken to the extreme that the Type-R is (or the other two aforementioned cars).
OK, you're right there, Type Rs are a subtle mix of a talented chassis and a highly strung engine, short on amenities, while AMGs are about brutality in a luxurious package, or so it seems, to me.
I just had the feeling you meant that Mercedes didn't need some extra tuning/engineering, for their brand image wasn't compatible with it... My mistake, then, but I hear you loud and clear now! ;o)
Ok: Yesterday I would have written here, as I have elsewhere, that pigs will fly before we will see another Honda Type R imported. And I believe that. Honda lost significant bucks on every Type R imported the last time around. So, I still say we'll never see a Type R that resembles the last one -- i.e., insane engine, no AC, no SR, minimal weight, Recaros, etc.
But, I may be wrong.
Today, I ventured over to our British counterpart website, www.CivicType-R.co.uk, and -- hot damn! -- what do I see reported there (quoting & pics from AutoCar) a Civic Type "RR".
Honda apparently is about to release a 2.2 liter variant of the new (European) Civic Type R coupe. However, the engine in that model, even though it gains .2 liters of displacement, produces only 197hp. The Brits were expecting a lot more, so Honda enthusiasts are already howling in pain. Consequently, apparently in anticipation that much more power will be required to satisfy the demands of the "old" Type R buyers who were expecting more from the larger engine, Honda is about to produce an RR version, thus borrowing its nomenclature from the Honda RR motorcycles.
If that happens, then yes, I think we could an "R" after all. It still wouldn't be the real deal -- i.e., the ROW edition -- but it may include a feature or two from that model.
Or, I'm wrong again. It wouldn't be the first time. Indeed, Ryan has hinted elsewhere that something unique is in the Civic pipeline. Wouldn't it be cool if those of us who are waiting for things to settle down re the current '06 Si got a chance to buy a really trick Si? -- i.e., an '07 CRX RR!
CTR's over here in germany are 36,000+ us dollars, and I'm basing that off the assumption that they are EQUAL in price to a REGULAR FULL FEATURE CIVIC. Ummmm..I doubt anybody would pay that. 04 CTR's are still going strong for 18k+euros.
Thats more than our 23K+ 06 Si that everybody started complaining about. Think about it in terms of MASS MARKETING. You guys think that that many people will have or will spend that much loot on a CIVIC!? C'mon I own a 03 civic lx, 90 crx boosted, and 06 SI. Even I wouldnt buy the Type R for that much. otherwise I would have the last gen CTR RIGHT NOW! Honda does whats smart. No way in hell are there that many "Enthusiasts" willing to shell out that much cash for a civic of any trim. You could probrably import one 3 or 4 yrs old for the same price as the new ones and you dont see that happening do you? My true suggestions.......move to japan or europe. :-P
Nighthawk: $36k for a CTR? I agree, there's no way an American would pay that for a Type R. But we don't have your VAT either. That's why your CTR was so expensive: taxation. HMC could have imported and sold the British CTR in the U.S. for $22k if the decision had been made initially to sell it here. The fact that we are now able to buy the '06 Si for $20k with the 2-liter 197hp engine, a six-speed transmission, a limited-slip differential and 17-inch alloys is proof of that fact. But, once the decision was made (in 2000) only to certify for sale in the U.S. the 160hp motor w/the 5-spd gearbox, re-certification of the CTR running gear was never economically feasible. We would-be CTR owners never got a chance to buy the car because Honda didn't want the CTR to compete against Acura's RSX Type S. A marketing decision, pure and simple.
S2000. That's as close as we get to a Type R kind of car. It's lightweight, fast, race-inspired, and stripped of most anything not directly related to the driving experience. It is a purpose-built performance machine. Just like a Type R should be.
Even though the S2000 stormed through the press pages as easily as it did track laps, the car has not been a big success for Honda. Why? Most often the answer is that it ain't comfortable as a daily driver.
Honda cannot cater to the enthusiast community very often. It needs to be done once in a blue moon.
Mechanic wrote: Nighthawk: $36k for a CTR? I agree, there's no way an American would pay that for a Type R. But we don't have your VAT either. That's why your CTR was so expensive: taxation. HMC could have imported and sold the British CTR in the U.S. for $22k if the decision had been made initially to sell it here. The fact that we are now able to buy the '06 Si for $20k with the 2-liter 197hp engine, a six-speed transmission, a limited-slip differential and 17-inch alloys is proof of that fact. But, once the decision was made (in 2000) only to certify for sale in the U.S. the 160hp motor w/the 5-spd gearbox, re-certification of the CTR running gear was never economically feasible. We would-be CTR owners never got a chance to buy the car because Honda didn't want the CTR to compete against Acura's RSX Type S. A marketing decision, pure and simple.
That is true about the 16% VAT. But I would be sure that with a US Spec CTR with the price even scaled to our u.s. dollar would be a little more than people could talk therselves into. Civics were overstated when the ITR was released. Integras werent. Now, more than ever, both cars are hard to justify (ITR CTR) to the masses even if WE truly know "whats up".
Oh Yeah I'm American btw. Just here in Germany for some servitude.
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