Engine Technology International (ETi) issue January 2005: ETi contributors wax lyrical about what they think are the finest engines ever made.
Among the powerplants that graced the minds of them are:
Jaguar V12
Alfa Romeo 2000cc DOHC ca 1960
Chevrolet Smallblock
Ford-Cosworth DFV
Rover V8
Napier Sabre
BMW 4.4L V8 Valvetronic
Ford 427 SOHC
Ducati V-twin
Hillman Imp
Napier Deltic
Graham Johnson, editor of this magazine chose the HONDA 2-Liter (S2000) F20C.
"Why has no-one else selected this engine as the all-time great? Ill educated, soulless bunch (referring to the other contributors). What's not to love about this unit? It's got power: 240bhp to be exact, meaning it has more horses per liter than any other naturally aspirated engine - ever. It's got character too: actually it's got two - one, shy retiring type below 6,000rpm, and a fuel-crazed, raver above and beyond to 9,000rpm.
But there's more - this DOHC powerhouse sounds gorgeous at full flight; like it belongs in the nose of a Touring Car racer or even between the legs of the maddest motorcyclist.
And it's fuel efficient in that one can - 'one' I assume being someone limper of wrist - drive to an average of 13.6L/100km (32mpg). Hell, it even looks good, longitudinally mounted as an engine should be.
You just gotta thrash this one: it wants it; it demands a thorough, daily clear out - make that between each gear change (which, by the way, is another joyful experience because the subby lever is connected to the greatest gearbox of all time - another story).
Faults? Just one: Honda installed it in the S2000, a sports car the rump of which is not always as faithful as the power source.
Dads, grandads, then great grandads... this engine will be a talking point for a long time to come. This is the greatest engine of all time, and, thus far, it's got five International Engine of the Year Awards trophies to prove that fact."
- Graham Johnson, Engine Technology International | January 2005. Page 35.
How could you not include the NSR750 for the pure audaciousness of it. It is the most outrageous engine EVER offered for sale to the public. EVER
Ever
Did I say EVER.
Ah, yes, the oval-cylinder NSR750. For some reason, Honda saw fit to release it with a surprisingly low power output (given its potential). Sort of defeats a lot of the purpose of the exercise. Here's this unique engine that shows our kick-ass engineering prowess. Oval cylinders, can you believe it? Power output? No, *cough, cough, looks down at shoes* it's not much to write home about, really. Ahem. Anyway, oval cylinders, can you believe it? And check out this other thing . . . .
howlinbjk wrote: How could you not include the NSR750 for the pure audaciousness of it. It is the most outrageous engine EVER offered for sale to the public. EVER
Ever
Did I say EVER.
dampflok wrote: Ah, yes, the oval-cylinder NSR750. For some reason, Honda saw fit to release it with a surprisingly low power output (given its potential). Sort of defeats a lot of the purpose of the exercise. Here's this unique engine that shows our kick-ass engineering prowess. Oval cylinders, can you believe it? Power output? No, *cough, cough, looks down at shoes* it's not much to write home about, really. Ahem. Anyway, oval cylinders, can you believe it? And check out this other thing . . . .
howlinbjk wrote: How could you not include the NSR750 for the pure audaciousness of it. It is the most outrageous engine EVER offered for sale to the public. EVER
Ever
Did I say EVER.
I thought the sucker went. I've still got the mag somewhere. I'll have to dig it out.
Still 32 valves in 4 cylinders is nuts.
Oops, I should have written "oval piston." Although if the pistons are oval, the cylinders gotta be too, I suppose.
dampflok wrote: Ah, yes, the oval-cylinder NSR750. For some reason, Honda saw fit to release it with a surprisingly low power output (given its potential). Sort of defeats a lot of the purpose of the exercise. Here's this unique engine that shows our kick-ass engineering prowess. Oval cylinders, can you believe it? Power output? No, *cough, cough, looks down at shoes* it's not much to write home about, really. Ahem. Anyway, oval cylinders, can you believe it? And check out this other thing . . . .
Gosh, I wonder if Mr. Johnson has ever experienced an F20C with a proper intake system installed. WHOLLY SH*T!! If he thinks they sound good at full song with a stock intake, he'll need to change his shorts the first time he hears one with an uncorked intake.
Hadean wrote: Engine Technology International (ETi) issue January 2005: ETi contributors wax lyrical about what they think are the finest engines ever made.
Among the powerplants that graced the minds of them are:
Jaguar V12
Alfa Romeo 2000cc DOHC ca 1960
Chevrolet Smallblock
Ford-Cosworth DFV
Rover V8
Napier Sabre
BMW 4.4L V8 Valvetronic
Ford 427 SOHC
Ducati V-twin
Hillman Imp
Napier Deltic
Graham Johnson, editor of this magazine chose the HONDA 2-Liter (S2000) F20C.
"Why has no-one else selected this engine as the all-time great? Ill educated, soulless bunch (referring to the other contributors). What's not to love about this unit? It's got power: 240bhp to be exact, meaning it has more horses per liter than any other naturally aspirated engine - ever. It's got character too: actually it's got two - one, shy retiring type below 6,000rpm, and a fuel-crazed, raver above and beyond to 9,000rpm.
But there's more - this DOHC powerhouse sounds gorgeous at full flight; like it belongs in the nose of a Touring Car racer or even between the legs of the maddest motorcyclist.
And it's fuel efficient in that one can - 'one' I assume being someone limper of wrist - drive to an average of 13.6L/100km (32mpg). Hell, it even looks good, longitudinally mounted as an engine should be.
You just gotta thrash this one: it wants it; it demands a thorough, daily clear out - make that between each gear change (which, by the way, is another joyful experience because the subby lever is connected to the greatest gearbox of all time - another story).
Faults? Just one: Honda installed it in the S2000, a sports car the rump of which is not always as faithful as the power source.
Dads, grandads, then great grandads... this engine will be a talking point for a long time to come. This is the greatest engine of all time, and, thus far, it's got five International Engine of the Year Awards trophies to prove that fact."
- Graham Johnson, Engine Technology International | January 2005. Page 35.
I vote for the Toyota I4 3SGTE racing block used by Dan Gurney's All American GTP team. It put out 700+ hp with 23-24 turbo psi and at 7 psi, powered my 91 MR2 Turbo with /200hp/200 lbs trq at 8:8.1 CR. Still my most favorite car.
Easy, it was a 215 ci V8 used by OLDSMOBILE IN A TURBO SETUP FOR ONE APPLICATION. Buick was more conventional of course and I on't remember their application. A friend bought one of the first Jetfires w/4MT when I was 17 and living in Prescott, Az in 1961. I drove it most of the way to Nogales,MX and back home right after he bought it because my friend didn't care for highway driving. It had 215 hp and 215 ci, but it was too expensive and not big enough when you could buy a 427/327 ci V8 in 1961, so GM sold it to Rover and they used it for many years in the Range Rover. My friends car was a 1961 Oldsmobile Jetfire w/all aluminum alloy 215 ci 215 hp turbo. Great car to drive, but reliable...? I moved away so I never found out.
Since Rover has used so long, it should have been, all that was needed were steel sleeves in the bores to avoid heat damage. It was sold to Rover in 1965 or thereabouts.
Well, of course these are opinions - no particular criteria given.
That said, when I think of great Japanese engines, not many outside of Honda come to mind. There are indeed some really nice powerplants - the Toyota 2JZGTE turbo inline-6 has tremendous power potential and durability. The Nissan SR20DET is another nice engine that's been around a long time, powering a lot of cars and doing it well. And the early Toyota 4AGE 1.6 liter 4cyl that found itself powering Toyota Atlantic cars is certainly interesting. But frankly, outside of the characterful 4AGE, the rest of the Japanese engine lineup isn't particularly interesting, quirky, dominant or chock full of racing history. The B-series engine set the standard for all normally aspirated engines, then the F-series and now (IMO) the K-series takes the crown. And all those engines have character and are really fun, so I can see naming one of those.
But compared to the ever successful Cosworth DFV, or the beautiful sounding Alfa twin cam, or the Ducati Desmo V-Twin (with its racing success, offbeat, unique sound and valvetrain), or the ubiquitous Chevy small block, most of the Japanese engine lineup is lacking a little something, wouldn't you say.
I would be happy to dispute the validity of the Rover (Buick) V8, the Jag V12, or even the BMW V8 (maybe), but a number of their choices are quite defensible, and the lack of other Japanese engines is also somewhat understandable.
I always thought that it was a buick engine. Good to know. If longevity of use is a criteria, then the 3800 buick engine should be in there. J/K They have been using that thing FOREVER and it doesn't seem like they will ever change!
notyper wrote: But compared to the ever successful Cosworth DFV, or the beautiful sounding Alfa twin cam, or the Ducati Desmo V-Twin (with its racing success, offbeat, unique sound and valvetrain), or the ubiquitous Chevy small block, most of the Japanese engine lineup is lacking a little something, wouldn't you say.
Well, like you say, these are merely opinions...but personally there are quite a few jap engines that twirl my dial...
Mazda rotaries
Subaru flat four turbos
Any number of bike engines including Honda's V4 (VFR750, RC45 etc with that very distinctive cam gear whine and sweet exhaust note.), Honda CBX1000 inline 6 (because they could), Yamaha V-Max 1200 V4, Honda V5 GP (are we including race engines?!)....the list goes on
Nissan Skyline GTR RB26
Datsun 240Z L24
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo
NSX
Aaah... my Alfa 2.0 liter DOHC I4 with its huge airbox removed sounded like a frickin' race engine.
Four velocity stacks sucking air for all their worth.
Better sounding than my B18C.. I hate to say.
But soooo noisy that it was impractical to drive it that way. Besides, the rest of the car was so unreliable.
Jeff wrote: Gosh, I wonder if Mr. Johnson has ever experienced an F20C with a proper intake system installed. WHOLLY SH*T!! If he thinks they sound good at full song with a stock intake, he'll need to change his shorts the first time he hears one with an uncorked intake.
Okay everyone, seems you all have an opinion why how it is and everyone is entitled to it...
I think these engines are chosen not only for their power or torque or their ability to rev, but also for a characteristic and also the era in which they were developed. Perhaps it was something to do with the engine's success, its history or the crazy engine developers who created them.
To help you out with the Napier motors: The Napier Deltic is a 18-piston triangular configured (with 3 banks of 6) motor. It was a diesel developed in the early 1950s and represents the only turbocharged engine on that list.
So the rest are NATURALLY ASPIRATED. Some of you refer to some great turbo motors but in the ENGINE DESIGNER world, they believe turbos to be a compensator for a design deficiency. Which is absolutely true.
The Chevy smallblock was chosen by Jim McCraw because since he was American, he had fond memories of this motor. He said:
"America, after all, was the engine of engines, the place where more car companies were born (and died, to be fair) than anywhere else on the planet. We've had every kind of engine you can think of over here, from slide-valves to Stirlings, from steamers to cammers, two-strokes to free-pistons, turbines to turbos.
Taking the 1890 to 1954 time frame as the great 'sorting-out' period of whose engines were strong and whose engines were wrong, the engine that came into the American market in 1955 is as good as any other to call my favorite of all time: the Chevrolet smallblock that was first seen in the mid-1950s, and 30 years later went corporate as the GM 5.7-Liter V8. No other engine ever built has had more economic impact or greater racing success."
You can see people's opinions are not always based on POWER or PERFORMANCE or DESIGN.
The Rover V8 was chosen because it was a funny sense of recycling. The British made a GM reject a success.
Also bear in mind that ALL THESE MOTORS are FACTORY motors that were not modified in any way.
One other contributor also mentioned the solid fuel rocket motor as one of his favourites... hehehe and a 5-cylinder 1966 125cc HONDA racing motor safe to 24,000rpm and knock proof on 85RON petrol.
I think you'll find that most people think rotaries sound like "ass" as one wag put it. Nor do they make astounding power or anything.
If you're going to select a Suby flat four, a Porsche flat-6 has to come first, but which one?
I could agree on the CBX motor - quite a beast.
The RB26 is a delicate motor that doesn't have much going for it besides boost.
The 4g63 is a journeyman engine, but doesn't embody anything besides turbocharged performance to most people.
As hadean pointed out, turbocharged engines rarely get selected as "best of the best" simply because turbos so often mask what the _engine_ is truly about.
If memory serves me correctly, we're not talking automobile engines when it comes to the Deltic. Wasn't it used to power British train locomotives?
Hadean wrote: To help you out with the Napier motors: The Napier Deltic is a 18-piston triangular configured (with 3 banks of 6) motor. It was a diesel developed in the early 1950s and represents the only turbocharged engine on that list.
The title of the topic was "greatest engine of all time" it mentioned nothing about being constrained to 4-wheeled passenger vehicles.
The magazine is ENGINE TECHNOLOGY INTERNATIONAL. They mainly speak about passenger vehicles, but they also have articles about old Rolls Royce aeroplane engines and generally all types of engines of the internal combustion type.
dampflok wrote: If memory serves me correctly, we're not talking automobile engines when it comes to the Deltic. Wasn't it used to power British train locomotives?
Hadean wrote: To help you out with the Napier motors: The Napier Deltic is a 18-piston triangular configured (with 3 banks of 6) motor. It was a diesel developed in the early 1950s and represents the only turbocharged engine on that list.
I wasn't being critical, just making an observation. Speaking of non-automotive engines, check out this link (which I think might have been posted here a long time ago): http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/. Like they say, there's no replacement for displacement! :-)
Hadean wrote: The title of the topic was "greatest engine of all time" it mentioned nothing about being constrained to 4-wheeled passenger vehicles.
The magazine is ENGINE TECHNOLOGY INTERNATIONAL. They mainly speak about passenger vehicles, but they also have articles about old Rolls Royce aeroplane engines and generally all types of engines of the internal combustion type.
dampflok wrote: If memory serves me correctly, we're not talking automobile engines when it comes to the Deltic. Wasn't it used to power British train locomotives?
Hadean wrote: To help you out with the Napier motors: The Napier Deltic is a 18-piston triangular configured (with 3 banks of 6) motor. It was a diesel developed in the early 1950s and represents the only turbocharged engine on that list.
Then they left off the incredible 1.5 liter V6 turbo Honda (1983-1988).
RA163E through (F1 constructors 1986 on FW11, 1987 on FW12, 1988 on MP4/4) RA168E.
Hadean wrote: The title of the topic was "greatest engine of all time" it mentioned nothing about being constrained to 4-wheeled passenger vehicles.
The magazine is ENGINE TECHNOLOGY INTERNATIONAL. They mainly speak about passenger vehicles, but they also have articles about old Rolls Royce aeroplane engines and generally all types of engines of the internal combustion type.
dampflok wrote: If memory serves me correctly, we're not talking automobile engines when it comes to the Deltic. Wasn't it used to power British train locomotives?
Hadean wrote: To help you out with the Napier motors: The Napier Deltic is a 18-piston triangular configured (with 3 banks of 6) motor. It was a diesel developed in the early 1950s and represents the only turbocharged engine on that list.
I think Buick did build it, but Olds the hot rod division and they grabbed it for the Jetfire. It was a terrific car, but I doubt many Olds dealers could have dealt with the turbo and the heat one puts out. It disappeared quickly, then I read Rover had purchased all the tooling, but I don't remember them puting a turbo in it, and they used it a long time.
My personal opinion is that such lists are always based on the technological basis alone. It is not wrong but in my personal opinion, it is a very closed and narrow minded view. It's similar to my biggest 'problem' with manufacturers like BMW for e.g. because of my perception, rightly or wrongly, that their motto 'The Ultimate Driving MACHINE' which focusses on the machine as the important element vs Honda's motto 'MAN Maximum, Machine MINIMUM'.
So my *personal viewpoint* is that a great engine is not defined by only its technology because anyone can make an engine using only the most state of the art technology. All it takes is *money*. Rather the more important fact is the impact it has on the car community, especially the enthusiast circle, the way it has changed the world and the amount of respect it earns (GIVEN to it).
To me, one of the engine that truly warrants the tag of the 'Greatest Engine of ALL Time' is the migthy little B16A. The first DOHC VTEC, no, the VERY FIRST VTEC engine in the world. It establishes the legend of the mighty B-series engine. The amount of respect, no, FEAR it has earned the legendary B-series engines, how it has established 'VTEC' as a most respected word and how Honda is now revered and respected by many as one of the best engine makers in the world.
THIS I feel is the true measure of greatest, not some 1000litre V-20 50 valve VVT Turbo intercooled NOS engine that anyone with money can put together.
No turbo. I think that they might have used this same engine in the early discoverys. Where do we ge this crazy useless knowledge about the auto industry. Years of managing a high end import used car dealership for myself.
40 years of car mags and personal experiences, I read all I can about cars, its pretty compulsive. I also constantly obsess about my current car(s), like being here. History is one of my other obsessions, I have so much trivia in my head its ridiculous.
I think I would like to see the original Mopar Hemi 426 V8 on this list. I'm sure you can find more impressive engines with today's technology - but back in the day the 426 Hemi took over the racing circuit by storm.
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