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TOV Forums > TSX > > Re: TSX Wagon replacement

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RolledaNsx
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TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2012 17:54
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At IAA in Sept 2013 The Civic Tourer will be shown.

It is 30 inches longer than the hatchback model.

Is this the TSX Wagon replacement in the US?
TurkMan71
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Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2012 18:17
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So we use to settle for a Euro Accord as our Acura TSX, now we'll have to take a step down and have a Euro Civic as our new Acura TSX wagon? How would the ILX fit in all of this?
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2012 19:31
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TurkMan71 wrote:
So we use to settle for a Euro Accord as our Acura TSX, now we'll have to take a step down and have a Euro Civic as our new Acura TSX wagon? How would the ILX fit in all of this?



I'm not convinced that the Civic based ILX can replace the Accord based TSX. Actually, I don't even believe the actual demographic is the same. Nevermind what AHM marketing is dreaming, I'm writing about the actual people who buy these things! The TSx is an alternative to the TL for people who just don't need the size, price or, (let's be obvious) the stigma of the Mechano Power Plenum look. The TSX is a nice place in between the family tuned Accord and the road runner TL.

Look, the TL is everything the Accord body can be... it really is muscled out and haul ass, but you do pay for it... the TSX is nicely in between. It has a better feel than the TSX but lacks the full on power and handling of the TL. The interior is all Accord, BUT it adds a few nice things that just makes you appreciate why Acura is Acura and not Honda. It really is nicer.

IMHO, the Accord body has different harmonics than the Civic. The Accord has a lower tuned fundamental which makes it a more comfortable car. The TL and TSX inherit this (*). If you go from a Civic to an Accord you can tell immediately that the bodies just feel different. Where the Civic is manic, the Accord is relaxed. It's all relative, of course, but it's definitely there.

I don't believe that the TSX can be replaced by a more sport tuned car, particularly in the low to mid 30K range.

And, I'm not convinced that an two box Euro Civic Wagon can become competition against the Audi/VeeDub/BMW wagons... the TSX, OTOH, is good competition against those I4 wagons.

AHM is playing with fire here.. the ILX is too expensive for what it is and it can not compete.... IMHO, again, what AHM needs to do is create a short wheelbase Accord (just two or three inches) and use that to build the TSX, both in sedan and wagon forms.. with both I4 and V6. Tweak the power a bit, 220 bhp for an I4 K24W Sport and 275 bhp for a J32W Touring and build them in NA for world wide export.


(*) Damn... I hope the next version of the TL is a bit smaller and looks better... I'd love to lease a TL with SH-AWD and take it on vacation... Come to think about it... a nice looking, non Mechano Power Plenum TL Wagon V6 with SH-AWD is likely my most guilty car fantasy right now.

Second, is a 220bhp, MT6, SH-AWD TSX Wagon.

Distant third is an Accord Couple V6 6MT....
nash24
Profile for nash24
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2012 04:12
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TurkMan71 wrote:
So we use to settle for a Euro Accord as our Acura TSX, now we'll have to take a step down and have a Euro Civic as our new Acura TSX wagon? How would the ILX fit in all of this?

settle for euro accord get over yourself there is a world out of america
TurkMan71
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Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2012 07:46
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nash24 wrote:
TurkMan71 wrote:
So we use to settle for a Euro Accord as our Acura TSX, now we'll have to take a step down and have a Euro Civic as our new Acura TSX wagon? How would the ILX fit in all of this?

settle for euro accord get over yourself there is a world out of america



LOL, ok...

I think you're missing my point, which is Acura is nothing more than rebadged Honda's, when they should be more...

...but thanks for the [useless] tip!
The_Big_German
Profile for The_Big_German
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2012 16:40
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This is very interesting, thanks for sharing. I own a TSX wagon, and I know that the ILX was designed to get closer to what the original Integra and RSX were-- less-expensive, more nimble, entry-luxury vehicles. The current TSX has gotten bigger and more expensive such that it is very close to the TL. I had understood that the plan was to sunset the TSX once the ILX got established... perhaps Acura sees a market for the wagon and doesn't want it to go away with the TSX, though I don't see why, since the only people that buy wagons today live in Colorado as I do.
The_Big_German
Profile for The_Big_German
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2012 16:40
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This is very interesting, thanks for sharing. I own a TSX wagon, and I know that the ILX was designed to get closer to what the original Integra and RSX were-- less-expensive, more nimble, entry-luxury vehicles. The current TSX has gotten bigger and more expensive such that it is very close to the TL. I had understood that the plan was to sunset the TSX once the ILX got established... perhaps Acura sees a market for the wagon and doesn't want it to go away with the TSX, though I don't see why, since the only people that buy wagons today live in Colorado as I do.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-22-2012 14:09
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The_Big_German wrote:
This is very interesting, thanks for sharing. I own a TSX wagon, and I know that the ILX was designed to get closer to what the original Integra and RSX were-- less-expensive, more nimble, entry-luxury vehicles. The current TSX has gotten bigger and more expensive such that it is very close to the TL. I had understood that the plan was to sunset the TSX once the ILX got established... perhaps Acura sees a market for the wagon and doesn't want it to go away with the TSX, though I don't see why, since the only people that buy wagons today live in Colorado as I do.


I see quite a few wagons in the 949 area code too.
TSX69
Profile for TSX69
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-19-2012 15:09
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http://www.insideline.com/acura/tsx-sport-wagon/2013/2013-acura-tsx-sport-wagon-gets-price-hike.html

The 2013 model goes up by $710 but there does not seem to be any mention of anything added in terms of content.
Edward
Profile for Edward
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-19-2012 16:42
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TSX69 wrote:
http://www.insideline.com/acura/tsx-sport-wagon/2013/2013-acura-tsx-sport-wagon-gets-price-hike.html

The 2013 model goes up by $710 but there does not seem to be any mention of anything added in terms of content.



I know.... Acura is not that much interested in selling TSX Wagon anymore, perhaps?
xBeastx
Profile for xBeastx
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-19-2012 19:49
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I really hope the Civic Tourer comes to America.
SK910
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Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-20-2012 11:58
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The 2013 car is the same from the looks of it.
I'm currently looking at the ILX and TSX sportwagon to replace my current car and I'm hoping that there's another wagon in the pipeline if the TSX goes out or if either of them get a more efficient Earth Dreams 2.4 with a little extra power and torque.
Edward
Profile for Edward
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-20-2012 12:40
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Hi SK910

So, what is the true reason for the price hike? They even removed "ACURA" sticker from the car!! Cost of producing TSX (including higher YEN) is too high, that's why?)

In any case, it might be better to just look for a left over of 2012 then? I am also thinking of getting one (wagon) in January...and I am also hoping they will come up with new wagon in a year or two..
JimmyEats
Profile for JimmyEats
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-20-2012 12:50
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Honda needs this car in the USA.

If they go with the torsion beam rear of the Euro Civic/Fit, then it could have a lower cargo floor than the US Civic and make the interior space more appealing, ie: closer to the TSX wagon.

Also, Honda may love to get away with a cheaper torsion beam Civic for its wagon, since it's rivals Elantra and Jetta have that in the USA.
THX17201
Profile for THX17201
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-20-2012 12:54
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JimmyEats wrote:
Also, Honda may love to get away with a cheaper torsion beam Civic for its wagon, since it's rivals Elantra and Jetta have that in the USA.


That is what is wrong with the Honda of today. They used to not follow what other manufacturers did, but rather forge their own path.
SK910
Profile for SK910
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-23-2012 00:24
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Edward wrote:
Hi SK910

So, what is the true reason for the price hike? They even removed "ACURA" sticker from the car!! Cost of producing TSX (including higher YEN) is too high, that's why?)

In any case, it might be better to just look for a left over of 2012 then? I am also thinking of getting one (wagon) in January...and I am also hoping they will come up with new wagon in a year or two..



I didn't even realize there was a price hike until I looked on edmunds today lol

the current TSX wagon won't do it for 1. mpg's on it are pretty low especially because i do a lot of city driving and I'm always in LA stop and go traffic most of the week.

I'd really like the TSX to stay in the line up and get an Earth Dreams 2.4 thats tuned for 200ish horsepower (hoping for 210 if they do a high compression Earth Dreams 2.4) and (hopefully) a 6 speed auto though I'm not opposed to CVT's. The ILX, even though I'm considering it, I think might end up like the ZDX
Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-23-2012 05:26
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Maybe the price increase is because the exchange rates of the last months are allowing Honda to sell more in Europe - where wagons are more popular.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-24-2012 07:54
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Fan Koni wrote:
Maybe the price increase is because the exchange rates of the last months are allowing Honda to sell more in Europe - where wagons are more popular.




I don't think Acura has made much, if any money selling Japanese-built cars over here for at least a couple of years. The price hike may be BECAUSE the TSX wagons have been selling pretty well. Sales of the wagon are up over 30% vs 2011. The car is in the lineup for a reason, but with the shoddy exchange rate, there's no real incentive for Acura to sell a ton of them.
gogzy
Profile for gogzy
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-24-2012 11:10
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the CDN also get favorite exchange rate, but Acura Canada is not carry this wagon. I are working to extend the life on the 04 TSX, it's a reliable car, the original battery still good after 9 years and 9 month of services, but we will replace most worn linkage, and components, looks like it's a good deal of works and money. we are still very happy with TSX (for now) but it's too bad no wagon here in Canada. 2013 Accord seems to get good reviews (i like to see how honda solve DI deposit issue), I hope Honda build a wagon based on the Accord instead of Civic/ILX. we hope, we will have a chance to pick up a wagon from Honda when we decommission TSX.
btw, WHY is Honda like to kill off well recognized names in it's line up and replace with something new??? they always do that, Legend gone, Integra gone, TL gone, TSX gone. isnt they were trying to replace the NSX name as well? it seems like Honda like to get a new pair of boots when the current just just become comfortable to wear...
SK910
Profile for SK910
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-24-2012 11:46
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gogzy wrote:
the CDN also get favorite exchange rate, but Acura Canada is not carry this wagon. I are working to extend the life on the 04 TSX, it's a reliable car, the original battery still good after 9 years and 9 month of services, but we will replace most worn linkage, and components, looks like it's a good deal of works and money. we are still very happy with TSX (for now) but it's too bad no wagon here in Canada. 2013 Accord seems to get good reviews (i like to see how honda solve DI deposit issue), I hope Honda build a wagon based on the Accord instead of Civic/ILX. we hope, we will have a chance to pick up a wagon from Honda when we decommission TSX.
btw, WHY is Honda like to kill off well recognized names in it's line up and replace with something new??? they always do that, Legend gone, Integra gone, TL gone, TSX gone. isnt they were trying to replace the NSX name as well? it seems like Honda like to get a new pair of boots when the current just just become comfortable to wear...



I wondered that too. It's like they purposely want to kill themselves or something. Just doesn't make a lot of sense just like the TSX and ILX getting stuck with a 5 speed auto while every other car in the Acura line up has 6 speed on automatic and manual.

If it were my call, I'd keep both TSX body styles and resize them slightly smaller and do what they did with the Accord, smaller car but bigger inside. Engine wise, Earth Dreams 2.4 with higher output (which I hope is under development or already existing just not known to the public) than the current K24 with 6AT/6MT transmission options.
superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-24-2012 11:57
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Since we have not seen a Honda I-4 with a 6 speed auto. ever, it's a safe bet that a K24 automatic will have a CVT in the future.
xBeastx
Profile for xBeastx
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-24-2012 12:39
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gogzy wrote:
the CDN also get favorite exchange rate, but Acura Canada is not carry this wagon. I are working to extend the life on the 04 TSX, it's a reliable car, the original battery still good after 9 years and 9 month of services, but we will replace most worn linkage, and components, looks like it's a good deal of works and money. we are still very happy with TSX (for now) but it's too bad no wagon here in Canada. 2013 Accord seems to get good reviews (i like to see how honda solve DI deposit issue), I hope Honda build a wagon based on the Accord instead of Civic/ILX. we hope, we will have a chance to pick up a wagon from Honda when we decommission TSX.
btw, WHY is Honda like to kill off well recognized names in it's line up and replace with something new??? they always do that, Legend gone, Integra gone, TL gone, TSX gone. isnt they were trying to replace the NSX name as well? it seems like Honda like to get a new pair of boots when the current just just become comfortable to wear...


Infiniti is doing that too. They're killing of the G lineup and replacing all their car names with either Q or QX. That's the G we're talking about!!!
gogzy
Profile for gogzy
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-24-2012 13:01
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maybe it's a flu, or cold virus, infecting corporation. just don't understand the changing name thing. it take a lot of work and effort to create such, and at the end just to kill it off. I wonder when will they ever run out of the name combination. maybe we someday we will see a iRx to fixup Honda.
CarmB
Profile for CarmB
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-24-2012 17:01
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TonyE wrote:
TurkMan71 wrote:
So we use to settle for a Euro Accord as our Acura TSX, now we'll have to take a step down and have a Euro Civic as our new Acura TSX wagon? How would the ILX fit in all of this?



I'm not convinced that the Civic based ILX can replace the Accord based TSX. Actually, I don't even believe the actual demographic is the same. Nevermind what AHM marketing is dreaming, I'm writing about the actual people who buy these things! The TSx is an alternative to the TL for people who just don't need the size, price or, (let's be obvious) the stigma of the Mechano Power Plenum look. The TSX is a nice place in between the family tuned Accord and the road runner TL.

Look, the TL is everything the Accord body can be... it really is muscled out and haul ass, but you do pay for it... the TSX is nicely in between. It has a better feel than the TSX but lacks the full on power and handling of the TL. The interior is all Accord, BUT it adds a few nice things that just makes you appreciate why Acura is Acura and not Honda. It really is nicer.

IMHO, the Accord body has different harmonics than the Civic. The Accord has a lower tuned fundamental which makes it a more comfortable car. The TL and TSX inherit this (*). If you go from a Civic to an Accord you can tell immediately that the bodies just feel different. Where the Civic is manic, the Accord is relaxed. It's all relative, of course, but it's definitely there.

I don't believe that the TSX can be replaced by a more sport tuned car, particularly in the low to mid 30K range.

And, I'm not convinced that an two box Euro Civic Wagon can become competition against the Audi/VeeDub/BMW wagons... the TSX, OTOH, is good competition against those I4 wagons.

AHM is playing with fire here.. the ILX is too expensive for what it is and it can not compete.... IMHO, again, what AHM needs to do is create a short wheelbase Accord (just two or three inches) and use that to build the TSX, both in sedan and wagon forms.. with both I4 and V6. Tweak the power a bit, 220 bhp for an I4 K24W Sport and 275 bhp for a J32W Touring and build them in NA for world wide export.


(*) Damn... I hope the next version of the TL is a bit smaller and looks better... I'd love to lease a TL with SH-AWD and take it on vacation... Come to think about it... a nice looking, non Mechano Power Plenum TL Wagon V6 with SH-AWD is likely my most guilty car fantasy right now.

Second, is a 220bhp, MT6, SH-AWD TSX Wagon.

Distant third is an Accord Couple V6 6MT....



If it was a simple matter of Honda simply replacing the TSX with the ILX, then you would have a point. Yet I don't think it's quite so simple. If the TSX goes, several things happen which cover that segment of buyers. One has already happened, namely the introduction of a better NA Accord. Other changes I envision would be to improve the value of the ILX by taking measures like making the 2.4L motor standard but not increasing the base price. Another change that I think is possible is for the re-designed TL to move closer in price and form to the current TSX. This would effectively give Acura a competitive entry-level sedan and a more competitive TL, being as it would come in at a somewhat lower price.

Being as the new Accord is a much improved product, it does beg the question of why even have the Euro Accord in this market.
Waldo
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Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-25-2012 12:26
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CarmB wrote:

If it was a simple matter of Honda simply replacing the TSX with the ILX, then you would have a point. Yet I don't think it's quite so simple. If the TSX goes, several things happen which cover that segment of buyers. One has already happened, namely the introduction of a better NA Accord. Other changes I envision would be to improve the value of the ILX by taking measures like making the 2.4L motor standard but not increasing the base price. Another change that I think is possible is for the re-designed TL to move closer in price and form to the current TSX. This would effectively give Acura a competitive entry-level sedan and a more competitive TL, being as it would come in at a somewhat lower price.

Being as the new Accord is a much improved product, it does beg the question of why even have the Euro Accord in this market.


I think Acura has already indicated the Japan made TSX is gone. Whatever the new models are, they will be built in Ohio on the Accord platform. Importing from Japan is a non-starter.

The question is whether they will have two or one model in the middle. A new TSX (shortened US Accord?) and TLX (longer US Accord?), or just the new TLX (Accord sized, and lower priced, as you suggested?). I'm betting on the latter.

The new TLX will have to be enough different from the new RLX so there will be no more doubt about why one might pay much more for an RLX.

[These decisions have already been made and carved in stone, so any comments here are far too late!]


superchg2
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Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-25-2012 14:18
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Waldo wrote:

[These decisions have already been made and carved in stone, so any comments here are far too late!


... and silly me Waldo, thinking all this time that Honda was monitoring TOV for our most excellent ideas.

Merry Christmas!


Waldo
Profile for Waldo
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-25-2012 15:57
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superchg2 wrote:

... and silly me Waldo, thinking all this time that Honda was monitoring TOV for our most excellent ideas.

Merry Christmas!


Then our next Acura would be a rear drive V8 wagon, 6MT. with amber rear LED turn signals, right?

Merry Christmas!

CarmB
Profile for CarmB
Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-25-2012 20:18
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Being as the NA Accord has gone upmarket, it really strikes me as redundant to offer an upmarket Accord-based sedan through the Acura network. What Acura has been from the start, I think, is the purveyor of upgraded versions of the regular Honda products. It's no different than a TV manufacturer like Sony offering 40-inch TVs in different configurations hitting different price points.

The Civic is Honda's compact sedan for the budget-concious and the ILX is Honda's compact sedan for a more upscale market. The Accord is the less expensive full-size sedan offering and the next TL, I would think, will offer a similarly sized vehicle that goes more upmarket than the new Accord has.

I don't really see the point of offering an Accord variant that would in essence be a rather insignificant upgrade on the new NA Accord plus a still more upscale version of the same platform. If cost is that important, just buy an Accord. If you want to go more upmarket, that's where the next TL figures in.

Simple, uncomplicated, logical, and offering what Honda has long been known for, namely value for money.

I really don't know that there is a downside to Acura dropping its price points on its two higher-volume sedan offerings and delivering a much-improved Accord with no significant price increase.
CarmB
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Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-25-2012 20:33
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CarmB wrote:
Being as the NA Accord has gone upmarket, it really strikes me as redundant to offer an upmarket Accord-based sedan through the Acura network. What Acura has been from the start, I think, is the purveyor of upgraded versions of the regular Honda products. It's no different than a TV manufacturer like Sony offering 40-inch TVs in different configurations hitting different price points.

The Civic is Honda's compact sedan for the budget-concious and the ILX is Honda's compact sedan for a more upscale market. The Accord is the less expensive full-size sedan offering and the next TL, I would think, will offer a similarly sized vehicle that goes more upmarket than the new Accord has.

I don't really see the point of offering an Accord variant that would in essence be a rather insignificant upgrade on the new NA Accord plus a still more upscale version of the same platform. If cost is that important, just buy an Accord. If you want to go more upmarket, that's where the next TL figures in.

Simple, uncomplicated, logical, and offering what Honda has long been known for, namely value for money.

I really don't know that there is a downside to Acura dropping its price points on its two higher-volume sedan offerings and delivering a much-improved Accord with no significant price increase.



Just realized my wording is a little off in the above post. I meant to say that there really is no need for two upscale Accord-sized sedans offered through the Acura network, considering the Accord that is now sold in NA is a significant step up from the previous model.
Waldo
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Re: TSX Wagon replacement    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-26-2012 00:38
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CarmB wrote:
CarmB wrote:
Being as the NA Accord has gone upmarket, it really strikes me as redundant to offer an upmarket Accord-based sedan through the Acura network. What Acura has been from the start, I think, is the purveyor of upgraded versions of the regular Honda products. It's no different than a TV manufacturer like Sony offering 40-inch TVs in different configurations hitting different price points.

The Civic is Honda's compact sedan for the budget-concious and the ILX is Honda's compact sedan for a more upscale market. The Accord is the less expensive full-size sedan offering and the next TL, I would think, will offer a similarly sized vehicle that goes more upmarket than the new Accord has.

I don't really see the point of offering an Accord variant that would in essence be a rather insignificant upgrade on the new NA Accord plus a still more upscale version of the same platform. If cost is that important, just buy an Accord. If you want to go more upmarket, that's where the next TL figures in.

Simple, uncomplicated, logical, and offering what Honda has long been known for, namely value for money.

I really don't know that there is a downside to Acura dropping its price points on its two higher-volume sedan offerings and delivering a much-improved Accord with no significant price increase.



Just realized my wording is a little off in the above post. I meant to say that there really is no need for two upscale Accord-sized sedans offered through the Acura network, considering the Accord that is now sold in NA is a significant step up from the previous model.


Well, Acura will probably only offer one, the next TLX. The present TL is an Accord platform vehicle built in the same Ohio factory.

Acura has a problem if there are actually many people who are trying to decide between an Accord and a TL. They may share a platform, but that's not the point of having a Luxury brand. It's mostly about showing off that you can afford the better things in life.
 
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