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MalcolmR
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Let's please keep this thread technical and practical, not political.
Interesting article from The Australian newspaper's motoring editor in a story written for the general public not car enthusiasts.
We've heard from danielgr on the Japanese market's large acceptance of hybrids. This article says it's still only 10% of the market and relies on incentives. Do hybrids rely on tax and other incentives? Is their 10% due to Japanese fashion-consciousness and susceptibility to following the latest fad/trend/environmental claim?
What about the remainder of the world?
What is the opportunity cost of car makers spending resources (R&D, engineering, marketing, ...) on hybrids? Is it a waste at current gas prices yet possibly a risk mitigation strategy for when/if gas prices rise enormously? What other benefits could be developed if those resources were devoted to technologies other than hybrids? Safety? Lower price? Fuel cell? ...
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/motoring/hestitant-hybrids-not-yet-in-the-hunt/story-e6frg9zx-1226478296729
In case you need membership to access the article, here it is below:Hesitant hybrids not yet in the hunt
BY: PHILIP KING From: The Australian September 22, 2012 12:00AM
video available
http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2282043766/The-heavy-world-of-hybrids
The heavy world of hybrids
Despite being roughly the same size and weight, Philip King says BMW's ActiveHybrid 5 and Lexus' GS 450h drive very differently.
TOYOTA is on track to pass a landmark: one million hybrid sales in a year for the first time. That's a substantial chunk of the 9.8m vehicles Toyota expects to sell in 2012 and it's mainly down to the car that's become a byword for hybrids, the Prius.
Since it went on sale in Japan 15 years ago, 2.7 million have been sold. A recent move to expand the Prius into a three-model family - with a smaller Prius C and larger Prius V - is helping widen its appeal. Globally, Prius sales rival the most popular small hatchbacks.
Perhaps that's one reason why other makers, especially premium brands, are rolling out hybrids like never before. The main car pictured, the BMW 5 Active Hybrid, is the first in this market from the German luxury trio but Audi and probably Mercedes will follow. Both were actually beaten here by Porsche, with petrol-electric versions of its Cayenne SUV and Panamera sedan.
Along with Toyota premium badge Lexus, fellow hybrid traveller Honda and newcomer Infiniti, there are now 15 hybrids available. All told, around 12,000 will find Australian buyers in 2012, eclipsing the previous high point by a couple of thousand.
In other markets, notably the US, there are dozens of hybrids, including many from volume badges such as Ford. So perhaps Toyota's often repeated claim that hybrids have become mainstream is finally coming true.
It's undeniable they are becoming more common but wholehearted acceptance of the technology is still in short supply. That's true of car buyers and car makers.
The vast majority of hybrids are bought in the US or Japan, where sales are driven by substantial incentives. These can take the form of a price subsidy, tax relief or even road perks. In California, "green" vehicles qualify solo drivers to use freeway high-occupancy lanes. This concession has a huge influence on a vehicle's success.
Driven by incentives, hybrids will account for around 10 per cent of new car sales in Japan this year and about 3 per cent in the US. But in most other markets, including huge emerging ones such as China or Brazil, hybrids are nowhere, incentives or not. The reason is that most buyers are still wary of the technology, the driving experience, or both. They are unwilling to pay a premium, however slight.
Car makers are rushing to offer hybrids, although few are driven by Toyota-style conviction. Instead, they wish to appear environmentally sound and fear being left behind on the technology. They believe that one way or another, expertise with batteries and electric motors will eventually be essential.
Overwhelmingly, hybrids are proliferating due to stricter emissions targets. The US and Europe penalise car makers whose average fuel economy exceeds a set limit, but heavily tilt the accounting towards alternative drivelines. With multiple credits for hybrids, even a small number of buyers can help makers achieve their fleet average goals.
Two recent arrivals, the 5 Active Hybrid and Lexus GS450h, illustrate the problems and the motivations.
Lexus has a commitment to offering hybrids and the GS450h follows form in being the flagship model for the brand's new large luxury sedan. It's a $10,500 premium over the GS350 model on which it's based and for that you get 17kW more power, one-tenth of a second quicker acceleration to 100km/h, and a 15km/h higher top speed.
At the luxury level, car makers often justify hybrids by pointing to a performance boost. It's an argument lost in a maze of contradiction because there are better ways of achieving that result than adding 200kg of batteries and electronics.
The GS450h steps away smartly if that's demanded, but its fuel economy case is much stronger. Compared with a GS350, it uses 3.4 fewer litres per 100km, or just 6.3 litres. In other words, you'll save about $5 every 100km. Which sounds good, but you'll need to drive more than 200,000km before you've recouped the price premium.
It took far fewer kilometres than that before I'd had enough. With its substantial mass positioned low, the GS450h rides with weighty composure but the suspension struggles. It's soft but still thumps into potholes and there's a lumbering quality to the way it tackles corners. I was left uncertain when (or if) its weight would settle. It changes direction with a complete absence of enthusiasm.
This impression is only reinforced by lazy steering and a reluctant transmission. It's a continuously variable unit, the sort used in the Prius, and is out of place in anything premium. There are four selectable modes, from Eco to Sport+, but annoyingly it always defaults to Eco where throttle response is virtually non-existent.
Slow manouevres can be done quietly under electric power only, which is a plus. It cruises quietly, too. Until you pull up, when there's an unwanted electric whirr.
One disadvantage associated with hybrids is reduced boot capacity, although Lexus has achieved a better result here than BMW in its 5 Active Hybrid, which loses 145 litres compared to the 535i on which it's based.
Although this is BMW's first hybrid in Australia, it has been selling vehicles with the system overseas since 2009. This car teams the turbocharged straight-six from the 535i with a less powerful electric motor than in the Lexus, although the results are almost identical. The two share acceleration times to 100km/h of 5.9 seconds, have the same 250km/h top speed and almost identical fuel economy - unless you option up the alloys on the Beemer. If you do, you'll end up with a car almost as thirsty as a regular 535i.
So, as in the Lexus, you're left wondering whether all that effort is worthwhile. The hybrid system increases power 25kW and torque 50Nm compared with the 535i, although that's negated by an extra 150kg of weight. Like the Lexus, it's a whopping 1.9 tonnes.
At least the price premium is more marginal at $5800. That might make it tempting and there are other pluses. The 5 Hybrid disguises its weight better than the Lexus and handles with more authority. It tips into corners confidently and the steering is miles better. There's also less hesitation through the driveline - it's a proper torque converter - and the engine has an appealing snarl when revved. Ride and refinement levels are high.
But does it make sense against a standard 535i? Never.
Drive more economically if fuel saving is the goal. There are plenty of gains to be made from a change in behaviour. Or buy a diesel. Or a smaller engine. There are lots of more efficient ways of achieving the same result.
Hybrids are not here because we're demanding them and neither of these two is a game-changer. Despite 12,000 buyers this year, hybrids are stuck at around 1 per cent of the Australian market.
They're here because the playing field has been tilted in their favour. But they don't add up, with more drawbacks than benefits. We're unlikely to confuse the profusion of models with clarity of mission.
Need to know
Lexus GS450h
Vehicle: Large luxury sedan
Engine: 3.5-litre V6 petrol plus 147kW electric motor
Total output: 254kW*
Transmission: Six-speed continuously variable transmission, rear-wheel drive
Fuel consumption: 6.3 litres per 100km combined
Price: From $99,900 (Luxury) to $121,900 (Sport Luxury) plus on-road costs
On sale: Now
* No system torque figure supplied. Engine 352Nm, motor 275Nm. Combining the two is misrepresentative
BMW 5 Active Hybrid
Vehicle: Large luxury sedan
Engine: 3.0-litre turbocharged straight six-cylinder petrol plus 40kW electric motor
Total output: 250kW and 450Nm
Transmission: Eight-speed automatic, rear-wheel drive
Fuel consumption: 6.4-7.0 litres per 100km combined*
Price: $122,900 plus on-road costs
On sale: October
* Wheel size dependent |
Malcolm
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WongKN
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As an enthusiasts, the one hybrid model from Honda I find most acceptable is, surprisingly, the Jazz(Fit) Hybrid. While the CR-Z is nice, the problem is it is a sporty car and will forever be compared to the SiRs and Type-Rs of old. But the Jazz Hybrid can be taken at face value, as it is.
Unlike the Civic and Insight, Honda for some reason made the Jazz Hybrid very sporty. The suspension is firm and can be bouncy to some but offers a great compromise between comfort and handling to me. Most importantly is the IMA assist really makes the driving very nice, especially for sudden acceleration needs at low and medium speed.
Ultimately in the end, the only real thing I found lacking from the Jazz Hybrid as it is sold here is the final top-end power. If Honda is to sell the JDM Fit RS Hybrid instead, it is highly likely I would have already committed to a purchase, and not still racking my brains as to what -non-Honda- I will be getting to replace my current Jazz VTEC. I believe the next generation Jazz Hybrid, if it inherits the 1.5l engine of the 9G HCH or better still the new 136ps engine from the CR-Z MMC, will be the car most likely to lure me back to Honda ownership for my daily driver, after what I expect to be an inevitable change away from Honda for the daily driver in the near future.
So to me, as I have always said, the main issue for hybrids for enthusiasts has always been its focus on being purely economical, to the extent that sportiness is being suppressed too much. For general performance driving, the IMA assist especially if the issue of duration, can be addressed, IMHO will surely convince many enthusiasts who have an open mind. Especially if it is done properly. The new 'S+' button the CR-Z MMC is the step in the right direction.
But keep the hybrid as they are now, then buyers will forever try to balance off savings from fuel cost to the extra cost of the car and this equation is likely to never work out. Not until fuel costs soars to ridiculous levels. When that happens, cost of owning a car will not be on the top of the list for people as world economy will be severely impacted.
So to me, if hybrids are to be worth it, then a mindset change in the part of the manufacturers themselves will be needed. Of course I am speaking only from the angle of Honda and Toyota only, not the european makes as I have not experienced them yet.
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DCR
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Fuck no they aren't. The biggest mistake I ever made in my car purchasing life was a Civic hybrid, and whatever illusion I had about saving money is going to cost me in the long run because the gas mileage sucks and the resale is tanking by the day.
I will never buy one again, but if I had a gun in my mouth, it would be a Toyota Prius for sure.
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MalcolmR
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DCR's response is clear. :)
WongKN, does your statement| So to me, if hybrids are to be worth it, then a mindset change in the part of the manufacturers themselves will be needed. Of course I am speaking only from the angle of Honda and Toyota only, not the european makes as I have not experienced them yet. |
If so why not? Overall cost effectiveness? Poor performance?
From your paragraph preceding the quoted paragraph it seems that on economy alone you're saying hybrids are not worth it.
To be worth having a hybrid it would need to offer higher performance, whether that be suspension or power or ... whatever? Is my understanding correct?
Malcolm
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FiSH-Chan
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MalcolmR wrote:
To be worth having a hybrid it would need to offer higher performance, whether that be suspension or power or ... whatever? Is my understanding correct?
:) |
If the new 136ps CRZ engine goes like a L15A7 but with the IMA boost it would be sweet. Add a better lithum battery it would be pretty awesome. Understandably this is from a viewpoint of having hybrid incentive.
In the end it is up to the buyer to decide if hybrids are worth it, after all it's not like only hybrids are offered.
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RSXCase
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Other than fuel savings, there's also lower wear rate on the brakes due to regenerative braking. As the roads get more congested every day the driving cycle starts resembling the EPA city cycle, at least for me.
For me hybrids are worth it for my driving style. A car for me is just for transportation. I don't just look at fuel savings. Lower maintenance costs are often not factored in, just fuel.
JC
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Fan Koni
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Well I think they are inevitable. Regulations will not ease away and the choice of car is still a massive statement.
V8s are doomed and top models need something - I wonder how the RLX compares to the 2 mentioned - I hope it is a lot lighter.
At the other end, the smaller diesels need an E-Motor to balance power delivery and emissions.
So investing into R&D is needed.
Since Toyota & Honda are making profits on hybrids the others started catching up.
I would love an MT hybrid, not the CRZ, but an evolution in the next Gen Jazz/Fit (with IRS & S+!).
The CRZ wasn't quite there, but really makes me look forward to the next gen IMA & MT drivetrain.
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MalcolmR
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RSXCase wrote:
Other than fuel savings, there's also lower wear rate on the brakes due to regenerative braking. As the roads get more congested every day the driving cycle starts resembling the EPA city cycle, at least for me.
For me hybrids are worth it for my driving style. A car for me is just for transportation. I don't just look at fuel savings. Lower maintenance costs are often not factored in, just fuel.
JC
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Doesn't the added complexity affect maintenance cost?
Life cycle of Prius says the hybridisation consumes more resources than it saves. That's not efficiency.
Malcolm
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WongKN
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Malcolm,
This evaluation applies to me and perhaps only to me. While I think current Honda hybrids achieve their objective in terms of fuel economy, I did not like the fact that they sacrifice performance too much to do that. All of Honda's hybrid are weak at the top-end. I discount the CR-Z in this evaluation because of its sporty design which I think puts it at a disadvantage when it comes to me because of my experience and preference with past Honda engines like BSeries and Type-Rs. Of the three, again the Jazz Hybrid is the best overall package but in the end still does not deliver the kind of performance I desire for my daily driver.
OTOH, if I am to try to remove myself from the picture, discounting my own set of prejudice and judge the hybrids as they are, then specifically for Malaysia, I think the hybrids are a 'worth considering' but with a cavert. The issue of the battery and its supposedly durability or lack of is still an unknown factor.
For Malaysia, again one needs to look at the context. Hybrids and EVs are completely exempted from tax here. All hybrids are imported from Japan at the moment. And imported cars faces a hefty import tax. Even locally produced cars incurs some amount of tax, due to imported components, and also due to sales tax. Because of this, prices of hybrids are extremely competitive.
To get an idea of how, consider this : a locally produced Honda City costs 88k. The Jazz i-VTEC costs just below 100k. The new 9G Civic 1.8 costs 116k.
By comparison, Insight costs just below 100k. The Jazz Hybrid costs 95k. The 9G HCH costs just below 120k.
So the petrol-hybrid price differential for equivalent models are really very small, that of a few thousand only. In fact, the Jazz Hybrid is cheaper than the bare basic petrol Jazz i-VTEC by almost 5k. While the HCH is only 4k more than the 1.8.
Now, consider the fact that the 9G HCH comes with leather interior, full keyless entry and engine start, etc while the 1.8l is features fabric interior and no keyless entry/start and no side airbags, etc.
Then Jazz Hybrid comes with paddles shifter, side airbags, side curtain airbags, all of which the regular Jazz don't have and is 5k cheaper.
And I am only talking about the most glaring/obvious/significant differences.
Given this, the fuel economy question seldom comes in anymore. So in this context, one would really be foolish to get the 9G Civic 1.8 for e.g. instead of the HCH. And especially foolish to get the regular Jazz and not the Jazz Hybrid.
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HONDA AFVM
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MalcolmR wrote:
.
Let's please keep this thread technical and practical, not political.
Interesting article from The Australian newspaper's motoring editor in a story written for the general public not car enthusiasts.
We've heard from danielgr on the Japanese market's large acceptance of hybrids. This article says it's still only 10% of the market and relies on incentives. Do hybrids rely on tax and other incentives? Is their 10% due to Japanese fashion-consciousness and susceptibility to following the latest fad/trend/environmental claim?
What about the remainder of the world?
What is the opportunity cost of car makers spending resources (R&D, engineering, marketing, ...) on hybrids? Is it a waste at current gas prices yet possibly a risk mitigation strategy for when/if gas prices rise enormously? What other benefits could be developed if those resources were devoted to technologies other than hybrids? Safety? Lower price? Fuel cell? ...
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/motoring/hestitant-hybrids-not-yet-in-the-hunt/story-e6frg9zx-1226478296729
In case you need membership to access the article, here it is below:Hesitant hybrids not yet in the hunt
BY: PHILIP KING From: The Australian September 22, 2012 12:00AM
video available
http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2282043766/The-heavy-world-of-hybrids
The heavy world of hybrids
Despite being roughly the same size and weight, Philip King says BMW's ActiveHybrid 5 and Lexus' GS 450h drive very differently.
TOYOTA is on track to pass a landmark: one million hybrid sales in a year for the first time. That's a substantial chunk of the 9.8m vehicles Toyota expects to sell in 2012 and it's mainly down to the car that's become a byword for hybrids, the Prius.
Since it went on sale in Japan 15 years ago, 2.7 million have been sold. A recent move to expand the Prius into a three-model family - with a smaller Prius C and larger Prius V - is helping widen its appeal. Globally, Prius sales rival the most popular small hatchbacks.
Perhaps that's one reason why other makers, especially premium brands, are rolling out hybrids like never before. The main car pictured, the BMW 5 Active Hybrid, is the first in this market from the German luxury trio but Audi and probably Mercedes will follow. Both were actually beaten here by Porsche, with petrol-electric versions of its Cayenne SUV and Panamera sedan.
Along with Toyota premium badge Lexus, fellow hybrid traveller Honda and newcomer Infiniti, there are now 15 hybrids available. All told, around 12,000 will find Australian buyers in 2012, eclipsing the previous high point by a couple of thousand.
In other markets, notably the US, there are dozens of hybrids, including many from volume badges such as Ford. So perhaps Toyota's often repeated claim that hybrids have become mainstream is finally coming true.
It's undeniable they are becoming more common but wholehearted acceptance of the technology is still in short supply. That's true of car buyers and car makers.
The vast majority of hybrids are bought in the US or Japan, where sales are driven by substantial incentives. These can take the form of a price subsidy, tax relief or even road perks. In California, "green" vehicles qualify solo drivers to use freeway high-occupancy lanes. This concession has a huge influence on a vehicle's success.
Driven by incentives, hybrids will account for around 10 per cent of new car sales in Japan this year and about 3 per cent in the US. But in most other markets, including huge emerging ones such as China or Brazil, hybrids are nowhere, incentives or not. The reason is that most buyers are still wary of the technology, the driving experience, or both. They are unwilling to pay a premium, however slight.
Car makers are rushing to offer hybrids, although few are driven by Toyota-style conviction. Instead, they wish to appear environmentally sound and fear being left behind on the technology. They believe that one way or another, expertise with batteries and electric motors will eventually be essential.
Overwhelmingly, hybrids are proliferating due to stricter emissions targets. The US and Europe penalise car makers whose average fuel economy exceeds a set limit, but heavily tilt the accounting towards alternative drivelines. With multiple credits for hybrids, even a small number of buyers can help makers achieve their fleet average goals.
Two recent arrivals, the 5 Active Hybrid and Lexus GS450h, illustrate the problems and the motivations.
Lexus has a commitment to offering hybrids and the GS450h follows form in being the flagship model for the brand's new large luxury sedan. It's a $10,500 premium over the GS350 model on which it's based and for that you get 17kW more power, one-tenth of a second quicker acceleration to 100km/h, and a 15km/h higher top speed.
At the luxury level, car makers often justify hybrids by pointing to a performance boost. It's an argument lost in a maze of contradiction because there are better ways of achieving that result than adding 200kg of batteries and electronics.
The GS450h steps away smartly if that's demanded, but its fuel economy case is much stronger. Compared with a GS350, it uses 3.4 fewer litres per 100km, or just 6.3 litres. In other words, you'll save about $5 every 100km. Which sounds good, but you'll need to drive more than 200,000km before you've recouped the price premium.
It took far fewer kilometres than that before I'd had enough. With its substantial mass positioned low, the GS450h rides with weighty composure but the suspension struggles. It's soft but still thumps into potholes and there's a lumbering quality to the way it tackles corners. I was left uncertain when (or if) its weight would settle. It changes direction with a complete absence of enthusiasm.
This impression is only reinforced by lazy steering and a reluctant transmission. It's a continuously variable unit, the sort used in the Prius, and is out of place in anything premium. There are four selectable modes, from Eco to Sport+, but annoyingly it always defaults to Eco where throttle response is virtually non-existent.
Slow manouevres can be done quietly under electric power only, which is a plus. It cruises quietly, too. Until you pull up, when there's an unwanted electric whirr.
One disadvantage associated with hybrids is reduced boot capacity, although Lexus has achieved a better result here than BMW in its 5 Active Hybrid, which loses 145 litres compared to the 535i on which it's based.
Although this is BMW's first hybrid in Australia, it has been selling vehicles with the system overseas since 2009. This car teams the turbocharged straight-six from the 535i with a less powerful electric motor than in the Lexus, although the results are almost identical. The two share acceleration times to 100km/h of 5.9 seconds, have the same 250km/h top speed and almost identical fuel economy - unless you option up the alloys on the Beemer. If you do, you'll end up with a car almost as thirsty as a regular 535i.
So, as in the Lexus, you're left wondering whether all that effort is worthwhile. The hybrid system increases power 25kW and torque 50Nm compared with the 535i, although that's negated by an extra 150kg of weight. Like the Lexus, it's a whopping 1.9 tonnes.
At least the price premium is more marginal at $5800. That might make it tempting and there are other pluses. The 5 Hybrid disguises its weight better than the Lexus and handles with more authority. It tips into corners confidently and the steering is miles better. There's also less hesitation through the driveline - it's a proper torque converter - and the engine has an appealing snarl when revved. Ride and refinement levels are high.
But does it make sense against a standard 535i? Never.
Drive more economically if fuel saving is the goal. There are plenty of gains to be made from a change in behaviour. Or buy a diesel. Or a smaller engine. There are lots of more efficient ways of achieving the same result.
Hybrids are not here because we're demanding them and neither of these two is a game-changer. Despite 12,000 buyers this year, hybrids are stuck at around 1 per cent of the Australian market.
They're here because the playing field has been tilted in their favour. But they don't add up, with more drawbacks than benefits. We're unlikely to confuse the profusion of models with clarity of mission.
Need to know
Lexus GS450h
Vehicle: Large luxury sedan
Engine: 3.5-litre V6 petrol plus 147kW electric motor
Total output: 254kW*
Transmission: Six-speed continuously variable transmission, rear-wheel drive
Fuel consumption: 6.3 litres per 100km combined
Price: From $99,900 (Luxury) to $121,900 (Sport Luxury) plus on-road costs
On sale: Now
* No system torque figure supplied. Engine 352Nm, motor 275Nm. Combining the two is misrepresentative
BMW 5 Active Hybrid
Vehicle: Large luxury sedan
Engine: 3.0-litre turbocharged straight six-cylinder petrol plus 40kW electric motor
Total output: 250kW and 450Nm
Transmission: Eight-speed automatic, rear-wheel drive
Fuel consumption: 6.4-7.0 litres per 100km combined*
Price: $122,900 plus on-road costs
On sale: October
* Wheel size dependent |
Malcolm
:)
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I am going to say YES! I consistently get 550 yo 630 miles from a tank......That's 12.4 to 13.3 gallons. I put 600 miles on my car just last week......it cost me $45 bucks.....PLUS, it takes about 20 minutes to fill a car up from start to finish because you have to go to the station, put up with the pumps and the people....I used to fill up or 5 times a month, now it's 2 or 3 times...so I have 40 minutes extra per month to get stuff done and I am saving at least $120+++ per month because my last car was $60 to fill and I was getting 400 miles per tank....
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Grace141
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I think the hybrid question for Honda is very confusing because of the disconnect between Honda's approach and the expectations of the customers.
- So many people here on TOV see the CRZ as Honda's best attempt at a sports car and correctly judge it as lacking whereas Honda has never positioned it as anything but a sporty hybrid. In that capacity it delivers 100%. Spend some time in a Prius or an Insight and then drive a CRZ 6MT. The fact that it is being compared to the regular Mini and the Miata in terms of regular-guy autocrossing events is remarkable considering its weight and tires.
- People are still only looking at the highway MPG numbers on cars even though the US government is now pushing the combined numbers. Sure, the '12 Civic Hybrid looks awful when comparing the highway numbers but it has a 44mpg city rating compared to the regular Civic's 28mpg number. That's a massive difference for most people who drive more than half of their miles on city streets.
- I think most of us who saw the introduction of Insight 1.0 with its big MPG numbers thought it was the path forward for Honda hybrid cars but that hasn't been entirely the case. The funny thing in my opinion is that if Honda stated the new '13 Accord Touring offered a 10% increase in HP over the EX-L but didn't mention it relies on IMA for that boost I bet a lot of people would be excited about it. IMA was always about recouping lost energy from braking and using it during acceleration. IMA is cool from an engineering view and it passes the KISS test much more easily than Toyota's system but I think most everyone else just blindly compares the numbers against those for the Prius.
- The general observation I have always thought odd is that of payback on hybrids as if that's the only question in purchasing any car. Seriously, if we were this concerned about payback on our choices for sources of energy we'd be using nothing but coal-fired electrical generation in the US. No automotive journalist ever seems to ask about payback on other automotive parameters such as payback on maintenance costs and track records for different brands, payback on drivetrain choices such as V8s vs. 4-cylinders, or even payback on car loans and how making poor choices can lead to a person being poor. The most popular new automobiles sold in the US are huge delivery-type or former farm vehicles, most of which are driven on the highway with zero cargo, so that is a clue on how important payback is to the average American. It's not the average hybrid buyer who is concerned about payback on hybrid tech but rather the buyer looking for an excuse for vehicles which use more gasoline to serve similar transportation needs. Raise your hand if you have a buddy who drives a 4wd F150 because he tows his boat twice each year, once from storage to his marina slip, and once from his slip back to storage.
- Finally, what about the person who just doesn't care what others think? We Americans take pride in an individual being allowed to buy a new Shelby Mustang with its impressive V8. Why can't a person buy a Civic Hybrid, Insight or CRZ without others responding in a manner other than "cool car!" What if a person just doesn't want any of his/her money going to the Middle East at the moment? Would we all be better off if everyone reduced their gasoline usage by 5% or 10%? What about the people out there who do believe in global warming? Don't they get the opportunity to believe in whatever they choose? Doesn't the 44mpg combined number for the Civic Hybrid look better than the 32mpg combined number for the regular Civic? I've paid more for Hondas over the years because I wanted the Hondas I've purchased more than the other cars available. How is choosing a hybrid car in general any different?
One last thought. I've always believed that when I'm certain I know what I think about cars it's time for me to rethink cars. It's so easy to fall back on car-guy traits, numbers, bench-racing, 0-60 times, power and torque, you name it. I've always known the car I'd prefer to be buried in when my turn arrives, and it happens to be the German car in this article.
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/soccer-moms-revenge/
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danielgr
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MalcolmR wrote:
RSXCase wrote:
Other than fuel savings, there's also lower wear rate on the brakes due to regenerative braking. As the roads get more congested every day the driving cycle starts resembling the EPA city cycle, at least for me.
For me hybrids are worth it for my driving style. A car for me is just for transportation. I don't just look at fuel savings. Lower maintenance costs are often not factored in, just fuel.
JC
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Doesn't the added complexity affect maintenance cost?
Life cycle of Prius says the hybridisation consumes more resources than it saves. That's not efficiency.
Malcolm
:)
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Thanks in advance.
PS: Answering your other question, I don't know for other people, but on the 3 hybrids we have in the family (CR-Z, Insight, and Toyota Estima) so far there has been no special maintenance nor any extra-charges vs. any gasoline car.
Last edited by danielgr on 09-22-2012 10:37
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danielgr
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WongKN wrote:
As an enthusiasts, the one hybrid model from Honda I find most acceptable is, surprisingly, the Jazz(Fit) Hybrid. While the CR-Z is nice, the problem is it is a sporty car and will forever be compared to the SiRs and Type-Rs of old. But the Jazz Hybrid can be taken at face value, as it is.
Unlike the Civic and Insight, Honda for some reason made the Jazz Hybrid very sporty. The suspension is firm and can be bouncy to some but offers a great compromise between comfort and handling to me. Most importantly is the IMA assist really makes the driving very nice, especially for sudden acceleration needs at low and medium speed.
Ultimately in the end, the only real thing I found lacking from the Jazz Hybrid as it is sold here is the final top-end power. If Honda is to sell the JDM Fit RS Hybrid instead, it is highly likely I would have already committed to a purchase, and not still racking my brains as to what -non-Honda- I will be getting to replace my current Jazz VTEC. I believe the next generation Jazz Hybrid, if it inherits the 1.5l engine of the 9G HCH or better still the new 136ps engine from the CR-Z MMC, will be the car most likely to lure me back to Honda ownership for my daily driver, after what I expect to be an inevitable change away from Honda for the daily driver in the near future.
So to me, as I have always said, the main issue for hybrids for enthusiasts has always been its focus on being purely economical, to the extent that sportiness is being suppressed too much. For general performance driving, the IMA assist especially if the issue of duration, can be addressed, IMHO will surely convince many enthusiasts who have an open mind. Especially if it is done properly. The new 'S+' button the CR-Z MMC is the step in the right direction.
But keep the hybrid as they are now, then buyers will forever try to balance off savings from fuel cost to the extra cost of the car and this equation is likely to never work out. Not until fuel costs soars to ridiculous levels. When that happens, cost of owning a car will not be on the top of the list for people as world economy will be severely impacted.
So to me, if hybrids are to be worth it, then a mindset change in the part of the manufacturers themselves will be needed. Of course I am speaking only from the angle of Honda and Toyota only, not the european makes as I have not experienced them yet.
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I just came back from a Spanish trip, where I drove about 2000km, mainly in open roads and freeways with little traffic, shared between my mother's Euro Insight (CVT with paddles and 16" alloys) and my father's 1.3L 5MT Euro Fit on 16" alloys.
Then came back to Japan, got my wife's preMMC JDM 1.3L CVT Fit and drove it for about 2000km (mainly freeway and open roads). Finally, just got back to my 6MT CR-Z.
What can I say after putting so many miles in all those cars back to back?
- The Euro models drive soooo much better than their respective Japanese ones. They are both much more stable, with less body roll and much better compliance over irregular pavement, get more direct and heavier steering, also get much better brakes, and more silent.
- The Euro Insight feels noticeably better planted over the road than the Euro Fit. Drivetrain-wise perfect around town, but seriously lacking power on the high-speed Spanish open-roads. The non-VTEC L13 simply lacks grunt unless it's helped by the battery, and the later is simply not often charged enough with the constant elevation changes and overtaking manouvers at those speeds. In the end the small engine has to be pushed so hard all the time that I got worse FE than on my CR-Z.
- The Euro Fit is rather nice and solid chasis-wise; I sure enjoyed it's lightness vs. the Insight at low-mid speed and during fast-direction changes, but also felt its considerably higher center of gravity, which makes it feel less reassuring on the freeway and on high speed turns. The engine is totally wasted by an extremely long gearing on 1-2-3.
- The pre-MMC Japanese Fit chasis, steering, brakes, are all horrible, feels like a noisy toy vs. its European counterpart. The VTEC engine and CVT on the contrary are a perfect match to its light weight, and in the end it simply feels much better than the VTEC-less CVT L13 on the Insight once at speed (on the city is completely different matter).
- The CR-Z ... well... it's hard to explain how nice it felt sitting on its driver's seat after so many miles on all the others, simply "special". The VTEC engine strength through its rev-band, the much more available IMA assist, the beatiful 6MT, the thick steering wheel, the precise and nicely weighted steering, the firm yet compliant suspension, chasis stiffness, the low seating position and center of gravity, ... it simply feels like no other car averaging 47mpg (20km/L) over a lifetime can.
My wife, she much preferred the passenger seat of the Euro Insight to the rest.
Back on topic. From a Japanese perspective:
- I don't know anyone buying a hybrid (now closing to being the majority buying non-kei cars from Honda and Toyota) doing maths to find out if they'll save money.
- I don't know anyone that would go back to driving anything else after trying one. Hybrids do feel like driving something more advanced, and therefore, in the minds of many japanese, simply better. That's what they pay for them, not to save money. It's the same feel that makes people buy LED bulbs nowadays, even if they know that they are unlikely to get any savings in this lifetime...
- Around here, hybrid buyers get their money back in terms of uncomparable refinement and smoothness, personal satisfaction of using less resources, sofistication, and favorable social perception.
That, and not subsidies, is what makes them sell like hotcakes. Wherever the question of "savings" comes up, hybrids will never stand a chance of becoming significant. Like everything in cars, most people only pay more for something they believe/feel as a better product. Cars aren't really long-term investments, but disposable products, and most Japanese will change their car after less than 100.000km (60k miles).
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CarGuyLee
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
MalcolmR wrote:
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Let's please keep this thread technical and practical, not political.
Interesting article from The Australian newspaper's motoring editor in a story written for the general public not car enthusiasts.
We've heard from danielgr on the Japanese market's large acceptance of hybrids. This article says it's still only 10% of the market and relies on incentives. Do hybrids rely on tax and other incentives? Is their 10% due to Japanese fashion-consciousness and susceptibility to following the latest fad/trend/environmental claim?
What about the remainder of the world?
What is the opportunity cost of car makers spending resources (R&D, engineering, marketing, ...) on hybrids? Is it a waste at current gas prices yet possibly a risk mitigation strategy for when/if gas prices rise enormously? What other benefits could be developed if those resources were devoted to technologies other than hybrids? Safety? Lower price? Fuel cell? ...
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/motoring/hestitant-hybrids-not-yet-in-the-hunt/story-e6frg9zx-1226478296729
In case you need membership to access the article, here it is below:Hesitant hybrids not yet in the hunt
BY: PHILIP KING From: The Australian September 22, 2012 12:00AM
video available
http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2282043766/The-heavy-world-of-hybrids
The heavy world of hybrids
Despite being roughly the same size and weight, Philip King says BMW's ActiveHybrid 5 and Lexus' GS 450h drive very differently.
TOYOTA is on track to pass a landmark: one million hybrid sales in a year for the first time. That's a substantial chunk of the 9.8m vehicles Toyota expects to sell in 2012 and it's mainly down to the car that's become a byword for hybrids, the Prius.
Since it went on sale in Japan 15 years ago, 2.7 million have been sold. A recent move to expand the Prius into a three-model family - with a smaller Prius C and larger Prius V - is helping widen its appeal. Globally, Prius sales rival the most popular small hatchbacks.
Perhaps that's one reason why other makers, especially premium brands, are rolling out hybrids like never before. The main car pictured, the BMW 5 Active Hybrid, is the first in this market from the German luxury trio but Audi and probably Mercedes will follow. Both were actually beaten here by Porsche, with petrol-electric versions of its Cayenne SUV and Panamera sedan.
Along with Toyota premium badge Lexus, fellow hybrid traveller Honda and newcomer Infiniti, there are now 15 hybrids available. All told, around 12,000 will find Australian buyers in 2012, eclipsing the previous high point by a couple of thousand.
In other markets, notably the US, there are dozens of hybrids, including many from volume badges such as Ford. So perhaps Toyota's often repeated claim that hybrids have become mainstream is finally coming true.
It's undeniable they are becoming more common but wholehearted acceptance of the technology is still in short supply. That's true of car buyers and car makers.
The vast majority of hybrids are bought in the US or Japan, where sales are driven by substantial incentives. These can take the form of a price subsidy, tax relief or even road perks. In California, "green" vehicles qualify solo drivers to use freeway high-occupancy lanes. This concession has a huge influence on a vehicle's success.
Driven by incentives, hybrids will account for around 10 per cent of new car sales in Japan this year and about 3 per cent in the US. But in most other markets, including huge emerging ones such as China or Brazil, hybrids are nowhere, incentives or not. The reason is that most buyers are still wary of the technology, the driving experience, or both. They are unwilling to pay a premium, however slight.
Car makers are rushing to offer hybrids, although few are driven by Toyota-style conviction. Instead, they wish to appear environmentally sound and fear being left behind on the technology. They believe that one way or another, expertise with batteries and electric motors will eventually be essential.
Overwhelmingly, hybrids are proliferating due to stricter emissions targets. The US and Europe penalise car makers whose average fuel economy exceeds a set limit, but heavily tilt the accounting towards alternative drivelines. With multiple credits for hybrids, even a small number of buyers can help makers achieve their fleet average goals.
Two recent arrivals, the 5 Active Hybrid and Lexus GS450h, illustrate the problems and the motivations.
Lexus has a commitment to offering hybrids and the GS450h follows form in being the flagship model for the brand's new large luxury sedan. It's a $10,500 premium over the GS350 model on which it's based and for that you get 17kW more power, one-tenth of a second quicker acceleration to 100km/h, and a 15km/h higher top speed.
At the luxury level, car makers often justify hybrids by pointing to a performance boost. It's an argument lost in a maze of contradiction because there are better ways of achieving that result than adding 200kg of batteries and electronics.
The GS450h steps away smartly if that's demanded, but its fuel economy case is much stronger. Compared with a GS350, it uses 3.4 fewer litres per 100km, or just 6.3 litres. In other words, you'll save about $5 every 100km. Which sounds good, but you'll need to drive more than 200,000km before you've recouped the price premium.
It took far fewer kilometres than that before I'd had enough. With its substantial mass positioned low, the GS450h rides with weighty composure but the suspension struggles. It's soft but still thumps into potholes and there's a lumbering quality to the way it tackles corners. I was left uncertain when (or if) its weight would settle. It changes direction with a complete absence of enthusiasm.
This impression is only reinforced by lazy steering and a reluctant transmission. It's a continuously variable unit, the sort used in the Prius, and is out of place in anything premium. There are four selectable modes, from Eco to Sport+, but annoyingly it always defaults to Eco where throttle response is virtually non-existent.
Slow manouevres can be done quietly under electric power only, which is a plus. It cruises quietly, too. Until you pull up, when there's an unwanted electric whirr.
One disadvantage associated with hybrids is reduced boot capacity, although Lexus has achieved a better result here than BMW in its 5 Active Hybrid, which loses 145 litres compared to the 535i on which it's based.
Although this is BMW's first hybrid in Australia, it has been selling vehicles with the system overseas since 2009. This car teams the turbocharged straight-six from the 535i with a less powerful electric motor than in the Lexus, although the results are almost identical. The two share acceleration times to 100km/h of 5.9 seconds, have the same 250km/h top speed and almost identical fuel economy - unless you option up the alloys on the Beemer. If you do, you'll end up with a car almost as thirsty as a regular 535i.
So, as in the Lexus, you're left wondering whether all that effort is worthwhile. The hybrid system increases power 25kW and torque 50Nm compared with the 535i, although that's negated by an extra 150kg of weight. Like the Lexus, it's a whopping 1.9 tonnes.
At least the price premium is more marginal at $5800. That might make it tempting and there are other pluses. The 5 Hybrid disguises its weight better than the Lexus and handles with more authority. It tips into corners confidently and the steering is miles better. There's also less hesitation through the driveline - it's a proper torque converter - and the engine has an appealing snarl when revved. Ride and refinement levels are high.
But does it make sense against a standard 535i? Never.
Drive more economically if fuel saving is the goal. There are plenty of gains to be made from a change in behaviour. Or buy a diesel. Or a smaller engine. There are lots of more efficient ways of achieving the same result.
Hybrids are not here because we're demanding them and neither of these two is a game-changer. Despite 12,000 buyers this year, hybrids are stuck at around 1 per cent of the Australian market.
They're here because the playing field has been tilted in their favour. But they don't add up, with more drawbacks than benefits. We're unlikely to confuse the profusion of models with clarity of mission.
Need to know
Lexus GS450h
Vehicle: Large luxury sedan
Engine: 3.5-litre V6 petrol plus 147kW electric motor
Total output: 254kW*
Transmission: Six-speed continuously variable transmission, rear-wheel drive
Fuel consumption: 6.3 litres per 100km combined
Price: From $99,900 (Luxury) to $121,900 (Sport Luxury) plus on-road costs
On sale: Now
* No system torque figure supplied. Engine 352Nm, motor 275Nm. Combining the two is misrepresentative
BMW 5 Active Hybrid
Vehicle: Large luxury sedan
Engine: 3.0-litre turbocharged straight six-cylinder petrol plus 40kW electric motor
Total output: 250kW and 450Nm
Transmission: Eight-speed automatic, rear-wheel drive
Fuel consumption: 6.4-7.0 litres per 100km combined*
Price: $122,900 plus on-road costs
On sale: October
* Wheel size dependent |
Malcolm
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I am going to say YES! I consistently get 550 yo 630 miles from a tank......That's 12.4 to 13.3 gallons. I put 600 miles on my car just last week......it cost me $45 bucks.....PLUS, it takes about 20 minutes to fill a car up from start to finish because you have to go to the station, put up with the pumps and the people....I used to fill up or 5 times a month, now it's 2 or 3 times...so I have 40 minutes extra per month to get stuff done and I am saving at least $120+++ per month because my last car was $60 to fill and I was getting 400 miles per tank....
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The math never adds up to what you are saying...
If you drive 25000 miles a year (your figures up there are 1800-2000 a month or 21,600 or 24000 per year) and your old car got 30MPG I think you have said before, hybrid gets 45MPG and gas is $4 a gallon, that's only $92 a month, and that's more miles and more $ then gas currenntly is.
@ $4 a gallon you have to drive way over 100K miles before you break even... don't remember the exact figure, but you get the idea.
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CarPhreakD
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Where I live, a hybrid makes about as much sense as a diesel, in that they both have significant premiums. But the diesel also has higher fuel costs, so in the long run I'd save a bit on buying a hybrid (say, a Prius C compact car) vs. a Jetta TDI. For me, the Prius C would be "worth it" in terms of lower operating costs over 5 years, but I don't buy new cars and I certainly wouldn't buy an econohatch like that.
I am a proponent of hybrid petrol engines over diesels though, and the main reason is particulates emissions (and depending on how you play with fuel "injection timing" and compression ratio, you'd run into NoX problems if you minimize particulates).
Other than that, I foresee petrol engines remaining king in North America at least for the next decade.
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RSXCase
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MalcomR,
I had the Insight II for 2 years, saved enough gas that trips to the pump became a once-a-month thing for me. Nothing went wrong with it, no special maintenance ritual compared with a normal car.
After putting a little more than 25,000 miles on it, with lots of stop and go traffic on congested freeways and city streets there was very little brake pad wear according to the mechanics. The battery pack held up well and so did those rock hard tires.
When I bought the Insight life-cycles costs were at the bottom of the list. In my book efficiency means the amount of money I put into the car (gas, wear items and consumables) for the miles driven and not what it cost to build it. I'm not an economist and I don't think like one. Things might have been different had I kept the car until the wheels fell off.
JC
MalcolmR wrote:
RSXCase wrote:
Other than fuel savings, there's also lower wear rate on the brakes due to regenerative braking. As the roads get more congested every day the driving cycle starts resembling the EPA city cycle, at least for me.
For me hybrids are worth it for my driving style. A car for me is just for transportation. I don't just look at fuel savings. Lower maintenance costs are often not factored in, just fuel.
JC
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Doesn't the added complexity affect maintenance cost?
Life cycle of Prius says the hybridisation consumes more resources than it saves. That's not efficiency.
Malcolm
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MalcolmR
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Thank you for comments.
My summary from an admittedly limited number of comments:
When comparing hybrid models to the same model without hybrid and based on fuel savings for common driving applications/mileages, hybrids are not worth it;
Hybrids appeal to some as a fashion statement;
No extra maintenance problems with hybrids.
Some say hybrids reduce brake wear.
Too much sacrifice in performance in hybrids.
Battery reliability unknown.
From the freedom of choice viewpoint, people should be allowed to make and to buy whatever they want. Agreed entirely. And for whatever reason one decides even if it's to make a fashion statement.
Given that hybrids are touted for their economy benefits and sold as such, I find this statement amazing, quote| I don't know anyone buying a hybrid (now closing to being the majority buying non-kei cars from Honda and Toyota) doing maths to find out if they'll save money. |
Daniel, I cannot find the article on life-cycle energy/resource usage. I read the article in a local major newspaper. It discussed the Prius analysed in a supposedly professional study. From memory another article was posted on TOV a year or so ago.
Grace141, enjoyed the article comparing Porsche, E Type and Odyssey. Based on what the Ody can do, I think I'd prefer to have my ashes scattered in an Odyssey. Amazing improvement in vehicles in the last few decades. A van beats a sports car. I got what you mean though.
Thank you for responses and ideas. I conclude that economically hybrids are not worth it. And that there are other reasons why people like hybrids.
For me, in terms of efficiency and resource usage I cannot see the benefit of dragging around a second engine and battery. Especially if lots of highway mileage. If one does a lot of braking then regen braking may be useful. I wonder what would be the case without subsidies?
Malcolm
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danielgr
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MalcomR.
1) I believe you had already decided most of what you wrote in there before anyone said anything.
2) I believe the problem lies on the very question you are asking. Let me put it otherwise:
- Are alloy wheels worth it?
- Are leather seats worth it?
- Is more power worthy?
- Is better fuel economy worthy?
- Is a larger tank worthy?
- Is a roomier interior worthy?
- Is a safer car worthy?
- Is a bigger one worthy?
- Is an AWD one worthy?
- Is a car used for non-business-related mobility worthy?
And I could keep asking forever. The point is, anything you may pay for in a car will provide you some comfort or satisfaction depending on your needs and tastes. The point is most of what you buy in your life isn't meant to be a business decission where you can ask the question "is it worthy"? Because the answer will always be "it depends", on the person, his tastes, priorities, concerns, targets, etc.
It has nothing to do with a "fashion", but with "values".
Your question is basically a pretty simplistic tool for those that do not value fuel economy per-se to deny it, as if it was possible to make a case for the "intrinsic value" of anything we buy in our daily lives.
PS: I work in the energy sector, to which I dedicate most of my life. I've seen hundreds of LCAs, done a few of them, and never seen one in which energy used in procurement/manufacturing/shipping a car would reach anything comparable to the energy used by the car's lifetime. That conclusion is actually pretty much true for the vast majority of "power machines" reasonably used. There might be some arguing about "what is worse for the environment"? But certainly not on the Energy side of things, which was the matter being discussed here and the purpose of an LCA.
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JR
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MalcolmR wrote:
Doesn't the added complexity affect maintenance cost?
Life cycle of Prius says the hybridisation consumes more resources than it saves. That's not efficiency.
Malcolm
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Apparently the added complexity does not add maintenance cost. I saw a recent review of the Prius that had comments from owners. They had no complaints along those lines. Most of the taxi fleet in San Francisco (brutal driving conditions) is Prii and last gen Ford Escapes.
Greencar.org claims that they take into account lifecycle costs and they still rate the Prius at the top.
People on car blogs are particular about cars until they aren't. "Don't get a hybrid; get a regular car." You can't buy a non-hybrid prius. To get the functionality (cargo space) of a Prius, and certainly a Prius V, you would have to get a CUV.
I'm considering a Prius V because I hate CUVs and because you can't get a lot of stuff I want on a Mazda5.
Don't talk to me about the TSX wagon (with shock towers taking up most of the space), or a bunch of dinky hatchbacks that have way less room.
BTW in California, hybrids do not have special HOV status. The article is wrong about that.
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danielgr
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JR wrote:
[...]
BTW in California, hybrids do not have special HOV status. The article is wrong about that.
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PS: Subsidies in Japan are also rather limited, really not that much when compared with those available to regular fuel efficient cars. Either way they are coming to an end this fall, we'll see if it changes considerably the market.
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MalcolmR
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danielgr wrote:
MalcomR.
1) I believe you had already decided most of what you wrote in there before anyone said anything.
2) I believe the problem lies on the very question you are asking. Let me put it otherwise:
- Are alloy wheels worth it?
- Are leather seats worth it?
- Is more power worthy?
- Is better fuel economy worthy?
- Is a larger tank worthy?
- Is a roomier interior worthy?
- Is a safer car worthy?
- Is a bigger one worthy?
- Is an AWD one worthy?
- Is a car used for non-business-related mobility worthy?
And I could keep asking forever. The point is, anything you may pay for in a car will provide you some comfort or satisfaction depending on your needs and tastes. The point is most of what you buy in your life isn't meant to be a business decission where you can ask the question "is it worthy"? Because the answer will always be "it depends", on the person, his tastes, priorities, concerns, targets, etc.
It has nothing to do with a "fashion", but with "values".
Your question is basically a pretty simplistic tool for those that do not value fuel economy per-se to deny it, as if it was possible to make a case for the "intrinsic value" of anything we buy in our daily lives.
PS: I work in the energy sector, to which I dedicate most of my life. I've seen hundreds of LCAs, done a few of them, and never seen one in which energy used in procurement/manufacturing/shipping a car would reach anything comparable to the energy used by the car's lifetime. That conclusion is actually pretty much true for the vast majority of "power machines" reasonably used. There might be some arguing about "what is worse for the environment"? But certainly not on the Energy side of things, which was the matter being discussed here and the purpose of an LCA.
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You believe you know what's in my mind?
Elsewhere on TOV I've questioned hybrids. So I put it out to everyone: Are hybrids worth it?
You told me hybrids are worth it to you. You explained why, quote:| Around here, hybrid buyers get their money back in terms of uncomparable refinement and smoothness, personal satisfaction of using less resources, sofistication, and favorable social perception. |
Within the same thread others disagreed.
I drew my conclusions. I stated them openly. And added a few points. Is that not OK to share my comments?
I was surprised about the low maintenance comments about hybrids. Actually, pleasantly surprised. So I learned.
It's OK with me for you to have non-economic reasons and your community's fashionable favourable social perceptions as reasons for your views.
I asked a basic question. I got some answers. I learned. I thank you.
My reasons for buying cars are different from yours. Celebrate that. Otherwise we'd have one car make and model for all.
It's OK to differ, isn't it? It's OK to be wrong isn't it? It's OK to make mistakes isn't it? I'm not asking you to justify your decisions. Nor your values?
I want to understand about hybrids. If my current conclusions about hybrids are out of date, I'm happy to be educated.
I learned a few new points. Yet my conclusions remain the same.
By the way, maybe I need to clarify the comment about Prius using more resources: The hybrid components use more resources than they save over the life of the car. According to two sources as stated.
danielgr, I'm very comfortable for you to believe hybrids are OK for you. Really, it's OK.
Malcolm
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WongKN
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Malcom,
The Malaysian tax exemption for hybrids and EV only came into being a few years ago. Before that, a HCH will cost as much as an Accord and Honda Malaysia's initial stock of 10 units never moved. Eventually they gave a couple away to a local government agency and the remainder, they sold off at cost. Otherwise, it was almost impossible to sell a hybrid. But the main reason for the severe price penalty of a hybrid is due to import duties as they have to be imported from Japan. When the locally made Jazz Hybrids starts to roll out and when the government incentive stops end of this year, that will be 'crunch time'.
The way I see it, being a 'fashion statement' is not the only reason why some people wants a hybrid above everything else. For e.g. if I am to get a hybrid, I am likely to get the Jazz Hybrid which is not much different looks-wise than a regular one. I won't do it now because I do not think the current IMA implementation is up to par yet but eventually when they meet my requirements, I would prefer a hybrid over a regular petrol variant and it is not for fuel economy. In my case, I think it has to do with my family background as my family wasn't well off when I was young so I have gotten into a habit of re-use when I was very young, and I value the ability and constantly practise how to conserve my resources and how to make use of them as efficiently as possible. I'd admit I can tend to splurge a bit or sometimes waste some money nowadays but the basic habit still remains. For a technie/gear-head like me whom understands the technology behind the cars I drive, to me hybrid makes lots of sense. While it is true there is a penalty in the motor and the battery, eventually I believe new advances in battery tech and metallurgy will allow lighter but more powerful and more efficient batteries and electric motors to be made. This plus perhaps advances in super-caps and kinetic energy storage systems to supplement the electric based system and I believe the issue of extra bulk versus benefits gain will be solved.
It is impossible to avoid braking or lifting off the throttle during driving, -EVEN IN HIGHWAY- travel. Even going at breakneck speeds on the fastest/overtaking lane, one has to (at least over here in Malaysia) deal with lane-hoggers and cars that swerve out to overtake but does so at a snail's pace. Plus the smartest drivers will -slow-down- to overtake especially when it involves moving around other cars at close-ish proximities. Sometimes people can be courteous enough to move out of a madly speeding car but they can do so slowly. When one drives at a sane pace, it typically means means dealing with other cars that are going slower or faster, etc. It is evenmore impossible to avoid braking or lifting off the throttle. Maybe things are different in the U.S. and yes I have driven from LA to Las Vegas through the desert road that have little to no cars. But normal highway, e.g. in Texas from Irvine to Southlake, the highways are still pretty packed during morning and evening hours. So to speak of no chance of using the brakes is really not realistic.
When one thinks hard about the recycling of energy in IMA and how the electric motor supplements the torque and power of the engine, then really when the current limitations are addressed, hybrid makes ALL the sense and pure gasoline cars are the ones which will make no sense.
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danielgr
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1st) Indeed, I have read enough of your posts to believe I can know what you had in mind when you asked. As you just said yourself : "you learned a few new points. Yet your conclusions remain the same"
2nd) "Around here they" does not equal "me". When I speak for me I start the sentences with "I". What I wrote was what I believed reasonably represents the reasons why people buy hybrids in Japan. It is a list of all of them, but each individual person has his/her own motivation which may encompass some or all of those. Personally if you knew me you'd also know I couldn't care less about any of kind of fashion. Btw, first hybrid I bought I did in a place where no one knows what it is (France). But actually, I'm not interested in discussing my preferences, because as an individual they are irrelevant to the discussion. Nor do I feel the need to justify my tastes/values to anyone here.
3rd) Your a priori stance is pretty clear once you start reducing what I believed to be an educated analysis to the "fashion" concept, which carries an obvious pejorative connotation, and assumes irrational followism. For once, that was only one among many reasons, and yet had nothing to do with "fashion" but instead with "social acceptance", with "societal values". Traditionally in japan, and even more so since 2011 disaster, wastefulness has been considered negative, and preservation of resources a virtue. Those values are sure far from being universal, and there is a reason why Japanese automakers have historically focused on efficiency (both in terms of fuel and space) while their American ones did on power and exuberance. An automaker like Honda has always believed some customers would see value in efficiency, and the hybrid tech does nothing to alter that fact, it simply showcases that for some people the value of efficiency is increasing to unprecedented levels. People like you tend to stigmatize hybrids as if they were some new fashion, whereas in the end they represent nothing but the most advanced powertrain technology aimed at improving fuel efficiency. That is something people valuing efficiency are ready to pay for. Humans being social by nature, they keep an obvious interest on what their counterparts think about them, and that has nothing to do with fashion. Behaving in a way those around you believe virtuous certainly counts, specially in societies as omnipresent as the Japanese one (I would understand somebody living in the middle of the Australian dessert wouldn't care much about the opinion of anyone else).
4th) I don't think you really want to learn much about hybrids, otherwise you would try to deepen your understanding on what you are told instead of reducing it to simplified clichés. Again, the very form of your question "are hybrids wort it" betray your intentions. Should you have asked "do hybrids save money?", that'd be a honest one. But by implying a relation between "worthiness" and "saving money" you are already emitting your judgment. Again, the simple fact that your answer focused on my person (let's forget for a moment that I did not even say anything regarding myself) instead of addressing the fundamental point of my post, shows how much interest you have into finding out what makes hybrids worthy to so many people. And yes, I say many because right now we are not talking about a tiny minority of green hippies buying first gen priuses, we are talking about cars that have reached majority shares in their segments. For the record, the Prius family was the world's 3rd best selling car in the first half of 2012...
5th) you know, a groundless non referenced quote you read somewhere you don't even remember doesn't do much to improve anyone's understanding of the matter. For the record, any claim in "resources" in general is pretty much an empty end, since when mixing different types of resources you need to assign them arbitrary values to make them comparable. For example, there is no way one could claim "lesser use of resources" between two processes, one using more energy and the other more water. You may prefer one of them based on the availability and cost of both energy and water in a specific location, but there is no way to add water with energy to see which uses "less resources". Back to hybrids, one of the common complaints of deniers focus on the use of rare earths and similar stuff. They forgot that such materials are not consumed in hybrids, can be recycled and reused without limits. As far as Japan is concerned "electronic waste" (which includes hybrid parts) is considered to be a stock of such precious resources for the future economic needs. The concept of "urban mining" is being widely adapted by many industries and at least over here it is a booming market. That said, since neither you nor me seem to have a clue on the rationale behind the study you remember to have read, there is really not much left to argue.
Cheers,
D
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MalcolmR
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WongKN, thank you.
So you're saying that as battery technology improves hybrids may one day be worth it.
I agree, that's a possibility. Hybrids may one day be worth it.
Being into minimising resource usage could be one reason to not buy a Prius. Honda's far simpler IMA is less of a resource hog and is far simpler. Given its fuel efficiency in real-world driving, a Honda hybrid seems far superior overall to Toyota.
Secondly, savings/efficiency depend on amount of braking per mile.
As you say, quote:| when the current limitations are addressed |
I would say if.
When/if that happens depends on fuel prices and technology improvement. Wouldn't you agree?
Malcolm
:)
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danielgr
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MalcolmR wrote:
[...]
Too much sacrifice in performance in hybrids.
Battery reliability unknown.
[...]
Given that hybrids are touted for their economy benefits and sold as such, I find this statement amazing, quote| I don't know anyone buying a hybrid (now closing to being the majority buying non-kei cars from Honda and Toyota) doing maths to find out if they'll save money. |
[...]
For me, in terms of efficiency and resource usage I cannot see the benefit of dragging around a second engine and battery. Especially if lots of highway mileage. If one does a lot of braking then regen braking may be useful. I wonder what would be the case without subsidies?
[...]
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1) I don't know how could anyone claim sacrifices in performance in hybrids. The hybridization adds massive torque and instant response with obvious performance benefits that easily compensate for the added weight. Naturally if you compare a 1.5L non-VTEC civic hybrid with a 1.8L VTEC one it may seem you are making compromises in performance, but that has nothing to do with the hybrid part, its all about the gas one. Compare a CR-Z with a 1.5L Fit and tell me where is the compromise. And if you find the chasis is too different to get a clear idea just come by Japan and drive side by side a Fit RS against its hybrid counterpart.
2) Don't know who gave you the "battery reliability unknown" bit, but I believe that after 15 years in the market place and millions of units sold around the world the battery reliability is pretty much well established. Just in case, not meaning there are no troubles, there are and always will be like with any other complex part of any car. Statistically some will always turn bad.
3) my quote was focused in Japan, and certainly here nobody pushes hybrids as money making machines. They are marketed as what they are, the most efficient cars you can buy on each segment.
4) the brake regeneration is a myth automakers help building to intuitively explain hybrids to people. In real life most of the battery is charged during steady state operation, or off-throttle decelerations (not involving actual braking).For once, the actual braking capacity of regenerative brakes remain rather limited un most hybrids in the market. The key concept behind charging isn't so much braking but reducing friction loses (to nearly zero in EV mode). If you drive mainly in flat and steady conditions hybrids make zero sense. Maybe the fact that there are virtually no flat roads in Japan is also related to the development of the technology. On Japanese open roads hybrids get a pretty much noticeable advantages over gasoline cars. Here is a relatively well documented example of the matter.
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1079181
Last edited by danielgr on 09-26-2012 02:07
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WongKN
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Malcom,
More accurately, to my personal opinion, as battery technology improves to a required level, then hybrids -are- definitely the way to go, no if or maybe. Definitely. Again it is the thing about being a car-geek and about my personal character. Knowing how much energy is being wasted every time I have to lift off the throttle or brake, that to me is a very bad way to drive a car. To recycle that and other forms of lost energy, as Mr Spock would say "it is most logical".
But I do agree about the 'if'. Can battery and electric motor technology improve to the required level ? It is a big if. What is the 'required' level ? I will admit I don't have an idea or criteria at the moment. Perhaps this might open me to 'attack' but at the moment, even the advances I have seen with the latest LiOn battery and IMA motor, they are not enough. But the one on the 9G HCH is already quite good except for the amount of battery charge and also the charging cycle.
Daniel, my personal experience with yours is a bit different. The greatest amount of charging is during light braking. Lift-off throttle or steady state 'forced' charging, they are very small. Perhaps if we account in time, e.g. forced charging over a long time, then it can charge the battery more than during light braking because we would run out of speed. But if we want to charge the battery up as quickly as possible, then light braking is the best way. In this case, accelerate up to as high a speed with as light a throttle as possible, then lightly press on the brakes. Then repeat the cycle as many times as possible.
I have spent/wasted a lot of time cruising with closed throttle versus light braking both on the roads during standing start acceleration testing and on the dyno during dyno-testing, more than I want to. When I want to charge the battery until it goes 7 out of 8 bars (on the CR-Z for e.g.) or to get 99% charge on the Jazz Hybrid, the best way without wasting half my life away (figure of speech) is to use the light braking technique.
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Grace141
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MalcolmR wrote:
.
WongKN, thank you.
So you're saying that as battery technology improves hybrids may one day be worth it.
I agree, that's a possibility. Hybrids may one day be worth it.
Being into minimising resource usage could be one reason to not buy a Prius. Honda's far simpler IMA is less of a resource hog and is far simpler. Given its fuel efficiency in real-world driving, a Honda hybrid seems far superior overall to Toyota.
Secondly, savings/efficiency depend on amount of braking per mile.
As you say, quote:| when the current limitations are addressed |
I would say if.
When/if that happens depends on fuel prices and technology improvement. Wouldn't you agree?
Malcolm
:)
|
MalcolmR, are there any present conditions which point you to believe hybrid cars are worth it in terms of whatever measure you are using? Again, the comparison usually comes down to a Civic Hybrid vs. a Civic EX sedan or a Prius vs. a Civic Hybrid. The truth is these cars are all over the map in terms of price so few shoppers really debate buying a Civic Hybrid vs. a Civic LX sedan or I bet even an EX sedan. The people I know who drive hybrid cars all set out to buy them in the first place because they believed/knew they would use less gasoline and for all of them it's proven to be true, and I believe it's the concept of spending a little more money to use less gasoline that drives hybrid sales in the first place. No hybrid owner I know had the goal of spending less money on transportation during the 5 to 7 years they own their car. In fact, the five people I know who own a Prius, Civic Hybrid or Insight all own other cars so the miles they drive in their hybrids are but a fraction of what would be required for breaking even in ten years, whatever it would mean to break even.
It just seems you're still looking at this from the perspective of cost which is fine as long as you admit that to yourself. One of my co-workers owns a Prius, an Insight, and a BMW 540i. Breaking even on payback isn't a concern for the fellow.
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iceman6
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A very strange thread, I must say. In my opinion, MalcolmR likes to ask 1000-word rhetorical questions. But whatever. Here is my answer.
First of all, there is very little point in discussing the cost/benefit of hybrid technology when used in luxury cars like Lexus and BMW. Who gives a sh*t? Lexus/BMW owners certainly don't.
Second, the Prius is one of the most remarkable cars ever invented. Affordable, 40+ mpg, over a million sold, an unsubsidized smack in the face to every car company that thought that future CAFE guidelines were un-achievable.
Third, in spite of everything we've done to reduce carbon emissions, the Arctic Ocean will be ice-free during the summer in less than 20 years. Hybrid technology doesn't just save fuel, it reduces carbon emissions, which will help us slow the rate of increase of global warming.
Fourth, the problem with hybrid technology is the batteries. They're too heavy, and don't hold enough energy. Li-ion batteries are a step forward, but still not good enough. This is a technology problem, and it will be solved, but not in this generation of cars.
And last, the Prius still drives like a Toyota. Give me Prius technology with Honda handling, and I might buy one. Or I might buy a VW GTD.
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JeffX
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iceman6 wrote:
A very strange thread, I must say. In my opinion, MalcolmR likes to ask 1000-word rhetorical questions. But whatever. Here is my answer.
First of all, there is very little point in discussing the cost/benefit of hybrid technology when used in luxury cars like Lexus and BMW. Who gives a sh*t? Lexus/BMW owners certainly don't.
Second, the Prius is one of the most remarkable cars ever invented. Affordable, 40+ mpg, over a million sold, an unsubsidized smack in the face to every car company that thought that future CAFE guidelines were un-achievable.
Third, in spite of everything we've done to reduce carbon emissions, the Arctic Ocean will be ice-free during the summer in less than 20 years. Hybrid technology doesn't just save fuel, it reduces carbon emissions, which will help us slow the rate of increase of global warming.
Fourth, the problem with hybrid technology is the batteries. They're too heavy, and don't hold enough energy. Li-ion batteries are a step forward, but still not good enough. This is a technology problem, and it will be solved, but not in this generation of cars.
And last, the Prius still drives like a Toyota. Give me Prius technology with Honda handling, and I might buy one. Or I might buy a VW GTD.
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the new 2014 Accord PHEV may fit the bill for you then. It's the best hybrid I've ever driven - and it drives more like a Honda than a Toyota (though maybe less like a Honda than I would like :(. It's the first Hybrid I would consider owning, as-is. There are some hybrids (like the CR-z) that have led me to think "yeah, I could maybe consider one of these, but only IF..." - and those are HUGE IFs and so far, even the aftermarket answers like superchargers and turbo chargers haven't been enough to change my mind)
Also, I feel compelled to add that the Prius and HSD-equipped hybrids in general are amongst the worst cars (hybrid or otherwise) I've ever had the displeasure of driving.
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TonyEX
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Well, our 06 HCH is paid off and it has 125K miles on it. We figure we'll keep it for a while. Time for new shocks, I think. We're on the 3rd set of tires _and_ (wow!) wipers.
The premium for HCH was about 3000 over an Si. Of course, the HCH does have auto HVAC which is actually very nice to have. You can/could not get that in any other Civic. It also has a very nice interior... in fact it looks like a rather expensive car. It does not have the power of the Si.
For a while, I was driving about 900 miles per week... and my fuel costs were running about 90 bucks a week! Getting around 39-40 mpg at 80mph... so if I had been driving something else, say getting 'only' 30 mpg, then my cost would have gone up by 20 bucks a week.. about 1000 a year.
The insurance difference between the Si and the hybrid is a wash. One costs more in liability the other on collision/comprehensive.
From experience with the current Si, if we had gotten an 06 Si then I would have been getting 28/30 mpg so figure that by now we'd be even.
I did drive the Fit for a while too, and that car got around 36 mpg at 80 mph but it was buzzy and loud compared with the HCH... and when you put that many miles, and you have the opportunity to do a bunch on cruise control on mostly flat roads, then the CVT of the HCH becomes a blessing.. it's a quiet car.
So, one of the benefits of the CVT -and the HCH in general- is that it's a pretty quiet car compared to other vehicles that can get that kind of mileage... I mean it feels substantial when compared to a Fit. Where the Fit got tossed around in storms, the HCH never did.
It is true that in California our HCH enjoyed unlimited use of the carpool lanes and my wife used that. That was really an invaluable asset and save her tons of time.
Today, the car is long paid off and my daughter drives around. She has no job -there are no jobs- and she's getting 30mpg tooling around town, so that's an asset.
Of course, if we had an Si instead of a HCH then my daughter would NOT be driving it.
The discussion about the worth of the hybrids goes on and on and on.... I would say that as the cost of hybrids goes down and as the weight penalty drops then they do become viable.
Of course, as the cost of gas goes up... well... you get the meaning.
I think hybrids make sense only if you plan to keep it for a long time, if you do put miles on the car and if the hybrid is optimized for mileage in a high fuel cost environment.
If you want to keep it for only two years, drive few miles and live somewhere where gas is cheap then CURRENT hybrid makes no financial sense.
However, when you bring into play stuff like HMC's new e-SH-AWD well then things get more complicated, as in that case you are dealing with hybrid technology to package the drivetrain quite differently.
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