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WongKN
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There is one aspect that needs to be remembered. Whoever was ultimately responsible for calling the war, the emperior, the imperial army, etc, the important thing is it is highly likely they just wanted to invade and conquer. But surely they did not tell their solders to 'kill, rape, plunder, burn and destroy', especially to the general population. But the horrors that the citizens saw, they were from these incidents. Yes, the fact that invaders came and took over the country is bad. But the horrors are actually the raping and the killing, the plundering. I think there is a saying about something like how the monster hidden in man can surface in certain times, like during the time of war. Perhaps the war and its effect on man caused these monsters to surfaced. If it was just isolated incidents, by only a small group of solders, then it would not have been so bad. But practically everyone who suffered the war suffered these horrors by the solders. But do bear in mind there were also incidents of mercy and kindness shown by japanese solders (I have also been told about these as well).
When one hears about being 'forgive but don't forget', bear in mind it is these horrors that are being referred to. The assurance is that these horrors are never repeated. The common people, they are not interested in the politics of the situation at that time.
Something to ponder about.
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ru4real
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You are quite correct naming it as mania, it is most likely stirred up by the Chinese government as a warning to Japan. Being one of the most paranoid and controlling governments in the world, one doesn't have protests in China unless one is allowed and even encouraged to do so, in this case amplified by history. Just hope both sides can work this out quickly and peacefully, it is utter insanity.
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Nick GravesX
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WongKN wrote:
There is one aspect that needs to be remembered. Whoever was ultimately responsible for calling the war, the emperior, the imperial army, etc, the important thing is it is highly likely they just wanted to invade and conquer. But surely they did not tell their solders to 'kill, rape, plunder, burn and destroy', especially to the general population. But the horrors that the citizens saw, they were from these incidents. Yes, the fact that invaders came and took over the country is bad. But the horrors are actually the raping and the killing, the plundering. I think there is a saying about something like how the monster hidden in man can surface in certain times, like during the time of war. Perhaps the war and its effect on man caused these monsters to surfaced. If it was just isolated incidents, by only a small group of solders, then it would not have been so bad. But practically everyone who suffered the war suffered these horrors by the solders. But do bear in mind there were also incidents of mercy and kindness shown by japanese solders (I have also been told about these as well).
When one hears about being 'forgive but don't forget', bear in mind it is these horrors that are being referred to. The assurance is that these horrors are never repeated. The common people, they are not interested in the politics of the situation at that time.
Something to ponder about.
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The psychology behind it is fascinating, Wong.
The experiment where an ordinary member of the public helps in a fake experiment, when he is encouraged to inflict increasingly dangerous electric 'shocks' on another, under supervision of a 'scientist' and continues in spite of his misgivings, shows how easy it is to self-delude.
Whether it's peer pressure, a commanding officer's order, "the greater good" or "some god made me do it", it's easy to pass the buck and justify our heinous actions to ourselves.
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gogzy
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WongKN wrote:
There is one aspect that needs to be remembered. Whoever was ultimately responsible for calling the war, the emperior, the imperial army, etc, the important thing is it is highly likely they just wanted to invade and conquer. But surely they did not tell their solders to 'kill, rape, plunder, burn and destroy', especially to the general population. But the horrors that the citizens saw, they were from these incidents. Yes, the fact that invaders came and took over the country is bad. But the horrors are actually the raping and the killing, the plundering. I think there is a saying about something like how the monster hidden in man can surface in certain times, like during the time of war. Perhaps the war and its effect on man caused these monsters to surfaced. If it was just isolated incidents, by only a small group of solders, then it would not have been so bad. But practically everyone who suffered the war suffered these horrors by the solders. But do bear in mind there were also incidents of mercy and kindness shown by japanese solders (I have also been told about these as well).
When one hears about being 'forgive but don't forget', bear in mind it is these horrors that are being referred to. The assurance is that these horrors are never repeated. The common people, they are not interested in the politics of the situation at that time.
Something to ponder about.
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that's why there is MP, court martial. army is a very strict, well organized mobilizations. although there was lack of documentation to suggest the higher ranking order these acts (well, too bad Germans seems to be very well documented), it also inexcusable and, unthinkable, for superior not to intervene and stop it. in fact, it's unbelievable that solders would commit acts such killing and raping of civilians and children in a wide spread fashion without some form of authorization from top, especially in culture like Imperial Japan. weren't there any social or education teach citizen/solders not to do these 1900's? I also felt the boundary of war is very different East and West, so maybe it's tolerable in their culture, but did not realize it wasn't so for rest of the world. still, it was bad, and shall not be forgotten so it does not happen again.
Japanese and US have a joint military exercise now.
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MasterOfDaDomain
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Looking at the Chinese people in the 19th and 20th century - they were probably one of the most suffering people. They not only experienced multiple foreign invasions, including the most brutal war crimes ever, as well as cruel ruling by the Qing Dynasty (Manchu), but even after independence, for decades they continued to suffer under communist ruling (the great leap, the cultural revolution). Only the last 30 years brought some prosperity and stability, but the country as a whole, politically, socially and economically, remains severely strained, with the increasing gap between the rich and poor (the gaps being far bigger than countries like U.S.), and huge government corruption.
The current situation provided some outlet for some citizens' frustrations, but fundamentally, getting ownership of the islands by China will NOT
1) Solve domestic social, economic and political issues.
2) Solve fundamental distrust of Japan and future geopolitical issues.
Historians try to understand how such brutality could ever occur. Throughout human history, the crimes committed by the Japanese army in WWII was the lowest of all evil acts. What is asked is that the facts be recognized, and taught as part of the history lessons. As everyone can see, we as a human race are not good at learning from our past. The world remains a deeply conflicted place. It is imperative that every person from every country learns history well, the good and the evil. Without learning and recognizing them, it's far more likely that they'll be repeated.
It remains hypocritical for a supposed democratic country whose army once committed such heinous crimes to not fully recognize the acts and gloss it over in its curriculum.
http://www.pacificwar.org.au/JapWarCrimes/Explaining_JapWarCrimes.html
Is boycotting Japanese products of any value? While economically it makes little sense, philosophically - the long term goal is that if Japan can finally do what it is supposed to do regarding the war crimes, there might come true stability, peace and prosperity in the region. Chinese government will have no external excuses for its domestic woes and will have to do more to improve the lives of its people from within.
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WongKN
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Thanks for keeping the discussion civil though I think the constant reminder here of the horrors of WW2 by the japanese soldiers might be hurtful to read by japanese forumers here. So I at least will not contribute anymore as I feel I have been given the chance to say what I feel and I thank all those who have been courteous to me and have given me the chance to say it and taken the trouble and the time to read it.
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Nick GravesX
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I concur with Wong.
A sensible & insightful discussion for some of us.
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