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linty
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Hopefully this doesnt add to more tensions between the two countries and will this affect NA at all?? Isnt the Canadian Fit built in China??
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/17/anti-japan-protests-in-china-cause-honda-mazda-nissan-to-suspe/
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NealX
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I saw that but was reluctant to mention... I had asked about the state of Japan/China relations when Honda announced its mid-term business strategy for China back in April.
Welp. I hope they work it out.
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CarPhreakD
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Linty, the relations between the two countries is completely in the shitter right now. Usually every few years the two countries would posture over these stupid islands but now it's on a completely different level. Looking at video footage you'd think you're looking at a Middle Eastern riot. Or Greece.
Honda might be safe if they used one of their joint ventures that doesn't sound Japanese. But this is severely affecting their production outputs and sales. This could be even worse news than the tsunamis, because China is a huge growth center right now.
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BachelorFrog
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Lei also said buyers are boycotting Japanese goods, especially cars, over safety concerns.
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Meanwhile, this is a perfect timing for the Chinese govt to boost their domestic economy. Riots are definitely led and encouraged by some chinese officials..i
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spyder5786
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Pretty sure the safety concerns have nothing to do with crash standards. Rather, their own safety for being a japanese car...
BachelorFrog wrote:
Lei also said buyers are boycotting Japanese goods, especially cars, over safety concerns.
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Meanwhile, this is a perfect timing for the Chinese govt to boost their domestic economy. Riots are definitely led and encouraged by some chinese officials..i
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MasterOfDaDomain
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It is unfortunate, because the disputes don't really matter to the welfare of average citizens.
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gogzy
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MasterOfDaDomain wrote:
It is unfortunate, because the disputes don't really matter to the welfare of average citizens.
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mostly to Taiwanese fisherman, the islands are much closer to Taiwan then China, and Japanese officials had detained Taiwanese fishing boat and workers in the past. long story short, Taiwanese government had been low key to this issue before because of pro-Jap policy in the past 20 years, but the current president is more neutral and have taken a stronger stand on this. with Taiwan and China getting less hostile toward each other, and China probably stepping up after seeing Taiwan unable to force Japanese come to negotiation table, has much smaller Navy to boot. the issue is also somewhat complicated, contrary to Germany; Japanese government have yet to issue any formal apology to nations it ruin during WWII. It may be a regional superpower in term of economy and technology, but most of it's neighbour are feeling uneasy. I agree the officials may be behind some of the protests, but it's easy to start this fire in China because of the history.
from what I see, this is not easy to end happily...
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CarPhreakD
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gogzy wrote:
MasterOfDaDomain wrote:
It is unfortunate, because the disputes don't really matter to the welfare of average citizens.
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mostly to Taiwanese fisherman, the islands are much closer to Taiwan then China, and Japanese officials had detained Taiwanese fishing boat and workers in the past. long story short, Taiwanese government had been low key to this issue before because of pro-Jap policy in the past 20 years, but the current president is more neutral and have taken a stronger stand on this. with Taiwan and China getting less hostile toward each other, and China probably stepping up after seeing Taiwan unable to force Japanese come to negotiation table, has much smaller Navy to boot. the issue is also somewhat complicated, contrary to Germany; Japanese government have yet to issue any formal apology to nations it ruin during WWII. It may be a regional superpower in term of economy and technology, but most of it's neighbour are feeling uneasy. I agree the officials may be behind some of the protests, but it's easy to start this fire in China because of the history.
from what I see, this is not easy to end happily...
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Well it's not just the Taiwanese fishermen- there are a lot of Japanese ex-pats in China. Those folks are really in danger.
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sugaki
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gogzy wrote:
Japanese government have yet to issue any formal apology to nations it ruin during WWII.
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This is such BS. Many prime ministers have apologized, and yet Chinese and Koreans keep complaining that they haven't. Here's a giant friggin' list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
So tell me how the dozens of apologies there aren't apologies? It's got nothing to do with not apologizing, but with pride.
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jshaw
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It has been said, it takes 77 years (or so) to have a general change in thinking.
It will take every last survivor of WWII in China and Japan to die, and stop spreading their hate, before either country can reconcile in any way. To die, and stop telling their stories.
Time will have to pass, before those stories are no closer than a legend, as the ones who experienced it, and can truely be believed, leave this planet.
With the internet, such wounds will linger, but at the same time, interaction between people, even across the internet, will prove the monsters and murderers of lore have long passed.
We'll just, quite honestly, have to wait for that last generation to be 6 feet under, before this crap has a chance of stopping.
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gogzy
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CarPhreakD wrote:
gogzy wrote:
MasterOfDaDomain wrote:
It is unfortunate, because the disputes don't really matter to the welfare of average citizens.
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mostly to Taiwanese fisherman, the islands are much closer to Taiwan then China, and Japanese officials had detained Taiwanese fishing boat and workers in the past. long story short, Taiwanese government had been low key to this issue before because of pro-Jap policy in the past 20 years, but the current president is more neutral and have taken a stronger stand on this. with Taiwan and China getting less hostile toward each other, and China probably stepping up after seeing Taiwan unable to force Japanese come to negotiation table, has much smaller Navy to boot. the issue is also somewhat complicated, contrary to Germany; Japanese government have yet to issue any formal apology to nations it ruin during WWII. It may be a regional superpower in term of economy and technology, but most of it's neighbour are feeling uneasy. I agree the officials may be behind some of the protests, but it's easy to start this fire in China because of the history.
from what I see, this is not easy to end happily...
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Well it's not just the Taiwanese fishermen- there are a lot of Japanese ex-pats in China. Those folks are really in danger.
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yes, I hope some Chinese come to their sense and let diplomatic do their work, not fist.
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gogzy
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sugaki wrote:
gogzy wrote:
Japanese government have yet to issue any formal apology to nations it ruin during WWII.
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This is such BS. Many prime ministers have apologized, and yet Chinese and Koreans keep complaining that they haven't. Here's a giant friggin' list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
So tell me how the dozens of apologies there aren't apologies? It's got nothing to do with not apologizing, but with pride.
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sugaki, thanks for the link, now I have to correct my understanding on this. I had heard many Chinese friends telling me how different Germany vs Japanese on this, but i guess they were either wrong, or brain washed. I agree, hate is not going to solve anything. it's probably better to educate the young, what was war and how it tear up love and people, and nobody win in a war.
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retired
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1) Do not naively believe that all Wiki content is correct
regarding facts and contexts.
2) Look at all the warnings at the top of your linked page
regarding quality standards, verification, etc. Laughable!
3) Look at the "Controversy" section on how these so-called
apologies may be unacceptable to the victims.
The above do not resolve the "apologies" issue, much less
take the next step of diagnosing what is going on today.
4) It is overly simplistic to think that one linked page
answers or explains such complex dynamics.
Cheers.
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WongKN
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retired wrote:
1) Do not naively believe that all Wiki content is correct
regarding facts and contexts.
2) Look at all the warnings at the top of your linked page
regarding quality standards, verification, etc. Laughable!
3) Look at the "Controversy" section on how these so-called
apologies may be unacceptable to the victims.
The above do not resolve the "apologies" issue, much less
take the next step of diagnosing what is going on today.
4) It is overly simplistic to think that one linked page
answers or explains such complex dynamics.
Cheers.
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Of all the posts, this one comes closest to understanding the situation here in Asia. The issue is not that of forgive but rather that of the forget. I don't think it is easy to explain the sentiments. I think this might give one an idea.
9/11. That sad day just passed. Imagine the situation where 'those people' had won. They came, they destroyed, they stayed. More than 10 years. They took away everything you own. They rape, they pillage, they plunder. People you know. People closest to you. Your whole world. Some of the elements written into movies from this part of the world, like 'Bruce Lee, My brother', or 'Ip Man-2'. That comes a little bit closer to giving an idea of what had happened.
Like I said it is tough. I never went through it but many of my closest, most dear to me, they went through it. Some of the stories, -just some-, I have heard and which I know for a fact have been 'diluted', even they left a lot of sadness in my heart.
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P54
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How can someone living a generation after the war apologize for what people before them did?
If you harbor anger, bitterness, hate etc. against someone then it is the person harboring these feeling that need to deal with themselves and forgive.
To be free you as a victim have to forgive, with Gods help.
French victims of WW2 tend to have animosity towards USA because they where caught in the crossfire when USA came to free them from Germany. In war bad things happen, Hitler and his comrades did gruesome things, however what does it help a person if other people on behalf of Hitler apologize to be political correct. It will not change the past.
The person harboring hatred etc. need to let go of past peoples ill doing and forgive, then you are free.
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gogzy
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anyone know will stoppage of production in the area affect Honda's world wide output?
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WongKN
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This shows you just don't understand. It is OK. But hopefully you don't judge others.
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WongKN
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If I am not mistaken Honda production in China is localised as in they are entities like Dongfong Honda, etc, like in Indonesia for e.g. At the moment, I do not know of any countries that are importing their cars from China, maybe Taiwan ? Not sure. But certainly not anywhere in ASEAN or Australia/New Zealand. If all of Honda's production in China is only sold for domestic use, then it will be only the domestic market that is affected. Stoppage of japanese car production will probably benefit the non-japanese makes, VW being the most populous from what I remember of the times I visited China.
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WRCanuck
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WongKN wrote:
I do not know of any countries that are importing their cars from China, maybe Taiwan ?
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The Fit sold in Canada is imported from China (as of the 2012 model year). That's the only one that I know of within the Honda lineup.
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slipper
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I hate to turn this into a history lesson but i'm sure it's hard to accept an apology when in recent history the Japanese killed millions of Chinese during the Nanking Massacre and some of the earliest cases of biological weapons using the bubonic plague, anthrax, small pox, and botulism. Japanese have a shady history rivaling the Nazis.
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slipper
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Above was in response to Sugakis message:
sugaki wrote:
gogzy wrote:
Japanese government have yet to issue any formal apology to nations it ruin during WWII.
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This is such BS. Many prime ministers have apologized, and yet Chinese and Koreans keep complaining that they haven't. Here's a giant friggin' list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
So tell me how the dozens of apologies there aren't apologies? It's got nothing to do with not apologizing, but with pride.
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sugaki
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slipper wrote:
I hate to turn this into a history lesson but i'm sure it's hard to accept an apology when in recent history the Japanese killed millions of Chinese during the Nanking Massacre and some of the earliest cases of biological weapons using the bubonic plague, anthrax, small pox, and botulism. Japanese have a shady history rivaling the Nazis.
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High-end estimates of Nanking is 500,00 not a million.
Ironically, Mao kills 30 million of his own people and he's regarded as a hero in China.
| 1) Do not naively believe that all Wiki content is correct regarding facts and contexts. |
You don't grasp fact-checking. When the cited source is a reputed news publication, then it is credible.
Ironically, the lone "citation needed" flag is the claim that the apologies are insufficient--did you even read the page?
| 2) Look at all the warnings at the top of your linked page |
See above.
| 3) Look at the "Controversy" section on how these so-called apologies may be unacceptable to the victims. |
None of the controversies call into question whether apologies have been made. One only questions its sincerity, of one politician amidst the dozens that apologized.
To say Japan hasn't apologized is as ridiculous as 9/11 was set up by the US govt.
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slipper
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sugaki wrote:
slipper wrote:
I hate to turn this into a history lesson but i'm sure it's hard to accept an apology when in recent history the Japanese killed millions of Chinese during the Nanking Massacre and some of the earliest cases of biological weapons using the bubonic plague, anthrax, small pox, and botulism. Japanese have a shady history rivaling the Nazis.
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High-end estimates of Nanking is 500,00 not a million.
Ironically, Mao kills 30 million of his own people and he's regarded as a hero in China.
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Most of the 30 million killed was a result of famine. Famine was common in China up until the "Great Leap Forward".
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sugaki
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slipper wrote:
Most of the 30 million killed was a result of famine. Famine was common in China up until the "Great Leap Forward".
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No, the great famine happened during the Great Leap Forward, as a result of Mao's misguided policies of rationing favoring the elite, poor agricultural planning, and shifting production away from agriculture to iron/steel. Compounding that with a drought and flood led to the deaths, but the govt played a large role in the famine.
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gogzy
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is US Fit came from Japan? different from Canada? that is very strange, the Honda shall have use strong CDN to buy from JPN, and offset the strong Yen.
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retired
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Mao's actions do not mitigate or justify the Japanese's actions.
Many Chinese do not think he is a hero. Ask the Chinese of Taiwan.
Do not generalize.
Wiki and fact-checking:
Anyone making a claim has the burden of proof. You gave a Wiki link
as evidence. My point is valid about not blindly accepting everything.
Do you trust all "reputed news publications"?
I do not. Yikes.
Besides, I never said there was no apologies, which is the only thing onto
which you keep clinging. I said it is more complex than your simplistic
diagnosis of "pride". It shows your lack of knowledge
and understanding of the influencing issues.
Realize that the longstanding territorial dispute over seemingly insignificant
lands has risen again. Here are some possible factors at play:
-no closure on past war crimes for whatever reason (as an aside, is the
cowardly ambush of Pearl Harbour a war crime, too?)
-they want those islands for vacation hotspots
-they want those islands for natural resources
-making a statement
-preparing for future actions
-the population started protesting on their own
-special interest groups or the Communist Party instigated at least some protests
-no matter how the protests started, the party has not tried to stop the
protests like they usually do. Maybe it is because the party is using the
nationalistic fervor to take heat off themselves due to the (a) leadership transition
and (b) the slowing economy and fear of subsequent social unrest
-etc
Cheers.
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DrWhiner
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Both Nissan and Mazda are reported to resume production on Wed. Mazda initially announced to stop production from Tue for four days.
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DrWhiner
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sugaki wrote:
slipper wrote:
I hate to turn this into a history lesson but i'm sure it's hard to accept an apology when in recent history the Japanese killed millions of Chinese during the Nanking Massacre and some of the earliest cases of biological weapons using the bubonic plague, anthrax, small pox, and botulism. Japanese have a shady history rivaling the Nazis.
|
High-end estimates of Nanking is 500,00 not a million.
Ironically, Mao kills 30 million of his own people and he's regarded as a hero in China.
|
Don't try to throw salt at the wounds. What Mao had done didn't minimize the fault of others.
Since you quoted from Wiki, this also comes from Wiki:
Chinese sources list the total number of military and non-military casualties, both dead and wounded, at 35 million.[74] Most Western historians believed that the total number of casualties was at least 20 million.[75]
The official PRC statistics for China's civilian and military casualties in the Second Sino-Japanese War from 1937 to 1945 are 20 million dead and 15 million wounded. |
What would you feel, if a rapist proclaims he (prob. not she) was not the one who raped the most?
Or, a murderer said since there were others who committed more murders, it's no big deal!?
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jshaw
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Just going to post this once.
Taiwan is already viewed as pro Japan, regardless of current political stance. So don't ask the Chinese on Taiwan. In addition, many who fled the communists to Taiwan, kept on fleeing all the way to the USA. Taiwan is less than minutes away from mainland china.
We're not going to resolve this issue within the next 20 years. More, if media is allowed to perpetuate propaganda. What was done is horrible, but until the people understand that history is history, hate will keep on rolling.
HOWEVER... These tensions do stretch back a long way, back to when Japan was viewed as nothing more than annoying pirates. Again, we're just going to have to forget. When those who saw their parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, childrens lives desecrated, are no longer able to point and scream, and their children are unable to pass down the hatred through stories, then we may see a change.
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DrWhiner
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Just to clarify a bit:
Since you quoted from Wiki, this also comes from Wiki about casualties in the second Sino-Japanese War:
Chinese sources list the total number of military and non-military casualties, both dead and wounded, at 35 million.[74] Most Western historians believed that the total number of casualties was at least 20 million.[75]
The official PRC statistics for China's civilian and military casualties in the Second Sino-Japanese War from 1937 to 1945 are 20 million dead and 15 million wounded. |
What would you feel, if a rapist proclaims he (prob. not she) was not the one who raped the most?
Or, a murderer said since there were others who committed more murders, it's no big deal!?
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