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JDMImport
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DrWhiner wrote:
JDMImport wrote:
The Honda Civic also has one of the weakest engines in the class as well at 140hp and 128tq. [...] It's really hard to find any of the old 2.0L Mazda3's around. The Skyactiv one's seem to be the vast majority of what is sold and that did better in combined efficiency than the Civic did while boasting much more power.
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Hmmmm.....
2013 Sentra
130 hp 128 tq.
2012 Cruze 1.8L
138 hp 125 tq
Nissan redesigned the Sentra for 2013, while decreasing both hp and tq.
The much touted world car from GM cannot beat Civic's fuel mileage nor its 'one of the weakest' horsepower or torque in the class.
Really hard to find Mazda's 'old' 2.0L?
I guess it's just because you didn't even try. Mazda put three engines in its 2012 Mazda3: 'old' 2.0 L engine, 'new' 2.0 L engine and 'old' 2.5 L engine. Just shows how much confidence Mazda has in its 'new' engine.
Within a couple of minutes' search, I can find almost a doz. Mazda3 with 'old' 2.0 engine. Really hard???
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How does offering a lower end, price leader of the 2.0L and a more performance option of the 2.5L reflect confidence in the Skyactiv 2.0L? lol
Production for 2012 of the "old" 2.0L was the first and second production runs while the new one was not ready because of the earthquake and Tsumami. I have come to learn that the last 3 allocations of 2012 inventory did not include any "old" 2.0L engines at all, and 98% were the Skyactiv ones with the other 2% left for the higher power 2.5L. For 2013, only 4% of total production will include the old "2.0L" in the impossible to find "i SV" model.
When I am comparing vehicles to the Civic, I am talking about the volume leaders for each company, which the Cruze 1.8L is not. The turbo engine is their volume seller. So, that leaves you with the Sentra. As I mentioned, the Civic has one of the weakest engines it its class. I never said it was the weakest.
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Gumbercules
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typer_801 wrote:
Only 10 to 15% of the claims of fuel economy on window stickers are actually validated by the EPA. Case in point, the 2012 BMW 328i. It was originally EPA rated at 36mpg highway. BMW did the testing and that's the number that appeared on the window sticker. Then the EPA validated that claim and determined it wasn't correct, dropping it to 33mpg.
My point being, maybe Nissan and Ford are optimistic in their assessments and the EPA isn't validating their claims like they did with BMW.
Here's a link to the BMW incident: http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/20/bmw-forced-to-lower-2012-3-series-auto-fuel-economy-to-33-mpg/
ipribadi wrote:
How the heck does the Alti gets 38mpg but the Sentra only 39mpg really puzzles me.
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I can't believe all the misunderstandings of MPG comparisons. If you understand how a transmission that runs a torquey engine at low RPMs works, you'll know why these two cars can have similar HWY ratings.
Also, the HWY rating is close but these cars will never get close to the same fuel usage on average because on the average American drives 55% city according to EPA. Automakers advertised HWY mpg because it's a bigger number, but most will find the combined rating more relevant.
To illustrate my point, look at the average MPG of hundreds of owners on fuelly.com. On average, none of cars that are not hybrids get near their HWY MPG because overall people drive a mix of roads not just highways (where ICE cars are most efficient). Here are a few examples:
Sonata: EPA 26 combined/ 35 hwy, ~27 mpg avg owner reported
http://www.fuelly.com/car/hyundai/sonata
Accord: EPA 27 combined/ 34 hwy, ~26 mpg avg owner reported
http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/accord
Elantra: EPA 33 combined/ 40 hwy, ~30 mpg avg owner reported (note no where near the 40 mpg that everyone talks about.)
http://www.fuelly.com/car/hyundai/elantra
I'm not saying HWY MPG is not important, but the numbers above are not for a few people it's for hundreds of owners. If anyone doesnt agree with them please post more meaningful data rather than just saying how hwy may be more important to some people.
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markitdown
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Great Points Gumbercules: 90% of my driving is 5-10 minute trips in the city. Even when I get on the interstate it is rarely for more than 10 minutes at a time. I hate when articles and advertising refer to the highway mileage saying "xxx car gets 30 mpg" when I am constantly 1 or 2 MPG lower than the city MPG estimate. This is one reason I am excited about the CVT in 2013 Accord. I would be ecstatic with 25 to 26 MPG in the city.
Gumbercules wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Only 10 to 15% of the claims of fuel economy on window stickers are actually validated by the EPA. Case in point, the 2012 BMW 328i. It was originally EPA rated at 36mpg highway. BMW did the testing and that's the number that appeared on the window sticker. Then the EPA validated that claim and determined it wasn't correct, dropping it to 33mpg.
My point being, maybe Nissan and Ford are optimistic in their assessments and the EPA isn't validating their claims like they did with BMW.
Here's a link to the BMW incident: http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/20/bmw-forced-to-lower-2012-3-series-auto-fuel-economy-to-33-mpg/
ipribadi wrote:
How the heck does the Alti gets 38mpg but the Sentra only 39mpg really puzzles me.
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I can't believe all the misunderstandings of MPG comparisons. If you understand how a transmission that runs a torquey engine at low RPMs works, you'll know why these two cars can have similar HWY ratings.
Also, the HWY rating is close but these cars will never get close to the same fuel usage on average because on the average American drives 55% city according to EPA. Automakers advertised HWY mpg because it's a bigger number, but most will find the combined rating more relevant.
To illustrate my point, look at the average MPG of hundreds of owners on fuelly.com. On average, none of cars that are not hybrids get near their HWY MPG because overall people drive a mix of roads not just highways (where ICE cars are most efficient). Here are a few examples:
Sonata: EPA 26 combined/ 35 hwy, ~27 mpg avg owner reported
http://www.fuelly.com/car/hyundai/sonata
Accord: EPA 27 combined/ 34 hwy, ~26 mpg avg owner reported
http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/accord
Elantra: EPA 33 combined/ 40 hwy, ~30 mpg avg owner reported (note no where near the 40 mpg that everyone talks about.)
http://www.fuelly.com/car/hyundai/elantra
I'm not saying HWY MPG is not important, but the numbers above are not for a few people it's for hundreds of owners. If anyone doesnt agree with them please post more meaningful data rather than just saying how hwy may be more important to some people.
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P54
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Regarding the comments made on a thread earlier about how Honda "fretted" about Altima MPG:
I came along another article where the wording was quite different and bears a different meaning than what came forth from the other quotes. Here is the wording:
| Why the belt-driven CVT? According to chief engineer Shoji Matsui, it’s all about fuel economy. Nissan’s Altima sedan, for example, is easier on gas than the current Accord, and it’s had a CVT for at least a couple of years now. Says Matsui: “We’ve been doing extensive testing to find out why the Altima has better fuel economy, and we think a CVT is part of the solution.” So, like it or not, CVTs are here to stay, and we’ll likely be seeing more of them from other manufacturers. |
Does it sounds like Honda is "fretting" about being beat 1-2 mpg HWY by Nissan. Does it sound like Honda is investigating why Nissan got better number than Honda and complain about it? If Nissan's better HWY numbers is due to taller gearing then maybe Accord respond better?
Bottom line, CVT is here and it is the MPG race that brought it here. Hopefully the belt will perform after 100K miles.
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DrWhiner
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JDMImport wrote:
DrWhiner
[...] My main argument was you cannot take a test by CR and assume Honda "underestimates" their economy figures considering several other vehicles exceeded their EPA estimates as well.
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Excuse me. Read my post again. Where did I say Honda "underestimates" their EPA figure?
Can't other automakers 'gamed' their EPA mileage???
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DrWhiner
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JDMImport:
You work for Mazda/its dealer?
Obviously, you (and I) forget the Corolla/Matrix, best selling car (small) last year.
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