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DrWhiner
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DCR wrote:
The Camry gets knocked down because of fleet sales too. Subtract the fleet sales last year and it still outsells the Accord [...]
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Will the same happen for 2012 and 2013?
2011 retail sales:
Camry 266.8 k
Accord 233,5 k
Altima 200.7 k
Fusion 166.2 k
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MarkR
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Regarding service costs, yes, the bmw/audis and vw are more expensive than Honda, buy hey come on let's be realistic.
2-3year warranty, free service first 3 years on BMW, Audis last well for 4-5-6years, the service WILL be $300-400$ more than on Honda once a year, but if you "love cars" do you really prefer a slow-not-drivers-car and save $300/year?
Regarding reliability modern cars are all quite the same. You can have bad luck with all. If you go with anecdotes you can say that Hondas are less reliable than Audi since my dads NEW Civic needed to change a leaking damper!!!! I haven't had a single glitch in my S4 for a year. BUT I don't draw conclusions, they are both reliable cars.
Anyway, the S4 is just too heavy, it takes some of the excitement away in curvy parts of the road, but it's stupidily fast with a super creamy engine with a raspy exhaust note and super nice interior.
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linty
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owequitit wrote:
linty wrote:
P54 wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
xsr wrote:
Time to move on. Looking to purchase new wheels in the next few weeks. After thorough research, it's between the sweet sweet 335ix and S4, manual mais oui.
I could say Honda has nothing to offer but I think it's more that I have outgrown what Honda/Acura has (and will have) to offer me as an enthusiast in the market for a well balanced, fast and luxurious awd sedan. And that's ok. I wish them well and all that.
I'll continue to check into vtec occasionally, it's been a habit for too many years to count. I wish Jeff, Shawn and the crew continued success.
And who know, maybe Honda (Acura) will surprise me in the next 5-8 years, come full circle, and offer truly competitive cars to the likes of the S4 and 335.
Adios.
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xrs.....
I wish you good luck.........BUT, as an insider to the car world, I see the BMW's and Audi's and Benz come in on trade 3, 4, 5 years later and me tell you, they are mostly nightmares, the more miles they have on them, the worse they are. Little things, squeaks, rattles, knobs, electrical gremlins.....Audi's mostly, then Benz......
BMW's are just weird driving cars.........We have 3 of them on our lot now, all traded in for Accords and they all had problems that cost us as a dealer THOUSANDS to fix........we don't even keep Audi's anymore unless they are SUPER clean. They are the WORST each costing THOUSANDS with in 6 months after the sale.........We honor the customer when we sell them a product, so we can't say no........So we fix it.......
Acura's, Lexus........UNBELIEVABLE quality, not even Infiniti can hold a candle to a 4 year old Acura or Lexus.......
All I am saying is, THINK, and don't be so focused on looks and more focused on drive and safety.........and a 6 speed TL is by FAR as good as ANY German car offered in it's class........I drive them ALL and the BMW's feel JUST as heavy as an Audi as a Benz........and they ALL feel heaver then A TL.........
THAT, is my soap box........Good Luck........
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Don't worry, people usually come to their senses once they rack up the cost of buying and owning the Germans. Sometimes people get so spoiled with Honda and so focused on negative internet spew that they get lured to other brands. Let them do it, it serves them well. As he said, he has outgrown Honda, fair enough, now lets see if real life treats him the way he expects. Many before him have done the same and usually come back to their senses when the bills have to be paid.
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There is some truth to what you said about internet spew and real life.
I use to believe alot of the internet spew about German reliability and so much that I leased my VAG product because of it.
The real life result though was so different that I purchased it after the lease and the total cost of ownership for myself (especially after the warranty) was much less after 8 years than any Honda or Toyota I have owned so far.......The only other vehicle that has served us slightly better outside of warranty is the Subaru that we also currently own.
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The only issue I have with your position is that statistically, it simply doesn't bare out as fact. From a purely numberical standpoint, the Germans are, and always have been, lower on reliability and higher on cost of ownership. Perhaps people can accept that with the perceived advantages, but it is pretty hard to pretend the difference doesn't exist. The maker provided routine maintenance for whatever period helps, but then again, in my German car experience you are going to quickly make up for it as the car comes out of warranty, as maintenance costs typically skyrocket. I don't have as many VW friends, but I do have quite a few Bimmer and Benz owners, and they ALL spend a ton of money. Those two also typically rank higher than VW in any study I have seen.
I am not saying you can't get a good German car, but the reality is that for every 1 VW product you can point to with no problems, I can probably point to 5 or more Hondas or Toyotas with no problems. I mean, do you really want to talk about BOTH of our 20+ year old Accords that literally had ZERO long term maintenace costs other than oil changes, brakepads and tires for the first 60-90K, and nothing other than T-belts outside of that? P.S. the 90 is now sitting at just shy of 260K and that is still the case...
Also, I find it highly suspect that even a majority of 3.7L engines are burning oil, as forums tend to concentrate complaints since those are one of the first resources used when people have issues. Again, the VW forums are chockablock with people having issues, as are sites like Bobistheoilguy etc. The other variable to consider is that the RL and MDX both use that same basic engine (the MDX is quantities that are several orders of magnitude higher), so how do we know that it isn't driving habits, break-in technique etc? There are a lot of variables that just aren't being accounted for in your argument.
I agree that having routine maintenance included in the purchase reduces the cost. However, you also have to consider that A) that doesn't eliminate the need for it, and B) it isn't necessarily convenient for people like me who live 100 miles away from the nearest dealer.
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I know statistically when people look at sites like CR etc they say the facts show otherwise but a month ago or so we had a similar debate here where I posted a european site similar to CR but with a larger data base that showed BMW, HONDA and AUDI as the top 3 most reliable brands. Audi just won an award last year as the best manufactuer over other luxury makes like Lexus etc for total cost of ownership, reliabilty etc...While this by no means makes them the absolute best it proves that they are Extremely close compared to 20 years ago.
I understand what your saying and by no means is anyone here including myself saying that the german brands are more reliable or cheaper to own than an equivalent Japanese brand. My own personal experience has seen otherwise but what myself and others are saying is that the gap has narrowed dramatically in the last 20-30 years.
Your 20+ year old Accord is a perfect example of what im trying to say and what i expressed in my original post. I remember my father and others taking about their Honda's, Toyota's etc back in the late 80's and how great they where compared to NA or euro brands but jump ahead 25 years and that tune has changed. Just 3 weeks ago at work we decided to get rid of our 2008 Odyssey with 65000 KM (Only 40k miles)because we know its going to be a money pit now the warranty has expired considering its history (1- Trans, 2- Torque Convertors and 2- power steering pumps with the 2rd pump now otw out too) plus other little issues.
I also understand your comment about the variables associated with the 3.7L but those variables work both ways. While its true that people come to forums to discuss problems, the majority of the members like us know how to break in an engine or take factors like driving habits into consideration. The majority of consumers that purchase vehicles though dont come to sites like this and would probably need the owners manual to figure out how to pop the hood let alone find the dipstick to check the oil. I remember long ago as a junior mechanic changing oil in various vehicles and having very little come out and the owners obviously not carring. Now days people just take it in when MID tells them too, so many people probably dont even know that the engine is using oil. Never the less if Acura has to post TSB's and advise their service advisors that 1qt for every 1k miles is normal then obviously it has been an issue between the consumer and Honda/Acura.
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linty
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notyper wrote:
Just as a reference, there isn't a major manufacturer that I know of today that _won't_ tell you that 1 qt/1k miles is acceptable. Simple fact, low tension oil rings (for lower friction) and high revs will burn oil. No way around it. Add in PCV and EGR issues and some oil consumption _is_ normal. IIRC Porsche used to say that 1 qt/600 miles is considered normal, even expected - at least on the older models.
When you think about it, even at 1 qt/1k miles, you're burning about 1 quart for every 50 gallons of gas. Sure, we'd all like to be able to go between oil changes without ever checking the oil, but that isn't realistic, and adding a quart once a month or so isn't so bad.
Regarding Euro's vs. the rest, while we all have anecdotal stories, the general evidence available from CR (hate those bastards) and other less seasoned sources suggest that you're going to have more issues with a Euro car, and that those issues will probably be more expensive (I find that one area the Japanese have historically done a great job is in designing for servicability, the Germans historically suck at this).
Some of this may be due to a larger feature set = more complexity, and some may be due to a push for longer service intervals, and some may just be due other misc factors. But you're taking a larger risk and spending more money to do so in many cases with the Euros (Germans in particular). Costs and benefits.
SC
linty wrote:
There are many threads that where finally linked together about very excessive oil burning in the 3.7 L models. Many people have complained to Acura and their shocking response was that 1 quart for every 1000 miles is considered normal oil consumption.
While I know many here are now going to think that im just bashing Honda/Acura, its simply not the case. Do they and other Japanese companies still make good vehicles?? Yes they do but this perception that they never fail and that European and NA brands are horrible is simply false in todays world IMO.
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Well said and I completely agree but this leads to that reliabilty perception again (Not you but some others).
You always see people in other forums knocking "x" german brand for being unreliable and poor engine quality because of excessive oil use when in reality it isnt, yet when it becomes a concern with a japanese product (in this case Honda) its easily explained away and accepted even though the issue and problem is the same.
I believe I have the same feelings as you do about CR and personally rarely use them when looking at vehicles. Over engineering is definately a problem and feature set can be an issue for the Euro's and generally is what leads to some reliablity issues. Some simple examples are the germans cant just have speed sensitive wipers but auto sensing...not just power windows but auto up/down on all windows....not just a turn signal but one touch signals etc, etc etc.....all of this eventually adds up and will obviously lead to a higher failure rate.
Its just like how some people think that the Japanese cant make a vehicle that can perform equally as good as a german vehicle.....but they can.
The same theory today works as well with reliabilty between the two..IMHO
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dampflok
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Mr. Starmark wrote:
[self-stroking omitted]
P.S. How bout them powerplant options in the ILX? |
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xsr
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After spending A LOT of time on bimmerfest and other BMW forums and discussions with a friend of a friend who works at BMW, decided to go with a loaded 328 ix (sorry, "x-drive" now) coupe, manual. Too many issues with the 335 powerplant; it was intoxicating to drive but, meh, the 328 is just fine. It's a 2009 CPO off lease with very low mileage - I refuse to take the depreciation hit. And the new 2013 328 ix no longer comes with a manual or inline six (only turbo four) so done deal, I went with the previous E92. And no navi, the i-drive is a pain in the butt.
Few thoughts as a Honda junkie - BMW manuals and clutches are very different. The throws are less precise and more "rubbery" but still, oddly, pleasing. The clutch is heavier and it took me a few rows for my brain to synch with the new drivetrain. But after it did, whoa, fun fun fun. The inline six is an absolute joy.
In comparison to Acuras I have owned, the interior is at least a step above in terms of fit, finish and quality of materials. Everything feels hefty and precise, the real wood trim is a pleasure to look at and touch. The sport seats are super comfortable and everything seems to "click" in terms of ergonomics. The interior has a really cool ambient led lighting scheme with soft glow coming from everywhere.
Welp, thats about it. I'll keep lurking here and like I said, maybe in the next cycle or two Honda can lure me back. Farewell for now.
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superchg2
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xsr wrote:
After spending A LOT of time on bimmerfest and other BMW forums and discussions with a friend of a friend who works at BMW, decided to go with a loaded 328 ix (sorry, "x-drive" now) coupe, manual. Too many issues with the 335 powerplant; it was intoxicating to drive but, meh, the 328 is just fine. It's a 2009 CPO off lease with very low mileage - I refuse to take the depreciation hit. And the new 2013 328 ix no longer comes with a manual or inline six (only turbo four) so done deal, I went with the previous E92. And no navi, the i-drive is a pain in the butt.
Few thoughts as a Honda junkie - BMW manuals and clutches are very different. The throws are less precise and more "rubbery" but still, oddly, pleasing. The clutch is heavier and it took me a few rows for my brain to synch with the new drivetrain. But after it did, whoa, fun fun fun. The inline six is an absolute joy.
In comparison to Acuras I have owned, the interior is at least a step above in terms of fit, finish and quality of materials. Everything feels hefty and precise, the real wood trim is a pleasure to look at and touch. The sport seats are super comfortable and everything seems to "click" in terms of ergonomics. The interior has a really cool ambient led lighting scheme with soft glow coming from everywhere.
Welp, thats about it. I'll keep lurking here and like I said, maybe in the next cycle or two Honda can lure me back. Farewell for now.
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Enjoy your Beemer. The coupe is very sharp.
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cksi1372
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xsr wrote:
After spending A LOT of time on bimmerfest and other BMW forums and discussions with a friend of a friend who works at BMW, decided to go with a loaded 328 ix (sorry, "x-drive" now) coupe, manual. Too many issues with the 335 powerplant; it was intoxicating to drive but, meh, the 328 is just fine. It's a 2009 CPO off lease with very low mileage - I refuse to take the depreciation hit. And the new 2013 328 ix no longer comes with a manual or inline six (only turbo four) so done deal, I went with the previous E92. And no navi, the i-drive is a pain in the butt.
Few thoughts as a Honda junkie - BMW manuals and clutches are very different. The throws are less precise and more "rubbery" but still, oddly, pleasing. The clutch is heavier and it took me a few rows for my brain to synch with the new drivetrain. But after it did, whoa, fun fun fun. The inline six is an absolute joy.
In comparison to Acuras I have owned, the interior is at least a step above in terms of fit, finish and quality of materials. Everything feels hefty and precise, the real wood trim is a pleasure to look at and touch. The sport seats are super comfortable and everything seems to "click" in terms of ergonomics. The interior has a really cool ambient led lighting scheme with soft glow coming from everywhere.
Welp, thats about it. I'll keep lurking here and like I said, maybe in the next cycle or two Honda can lure me back. Farewell for now.
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Congrats on the new ride. Like the coupe too, but needed 4 doors. They've pretty much fixed the 335 issues with the new N55 and new HPFP's, but no doubt it's more likely to have issues than the 328 6. I believe the 2012/13 are still the same design, so it has a manual and is still a 6, not the new 4 cyl turbo...either way, hear ya on the depreciation, smart financial move by you. Didn't get i-drive either, heard too many horror stories, although I sometimes wish I did.
I thought I would have never bought an auto in my BMW, but I hated the manual's. Honda/Acura smokes BMW in this regard. I also do a lot of stop/go driving, so the auto did make more sense and gotta say it's pretty damn good, especially in DS mode. The BMW clutch was not smooth, the throws seemed notchy and it really disappointed me...a shame really. BMW could learn a lot from Honda here.
Agreed on the materials, fit/finish, etc. Although, the German's and their ergonomics need some work. The cruise control is about as intuitive as nuclear physics. Love the HK stereo and the sport seats are phenomenal, esp for back sufferers...ha.
Enjoy, I have a feeling you'll still hang out here a lot.
PS. Bimmerfest seems to be the older, more experienced crowd, while E90post gets the mod fanatics and younger, spoiled, rich kids...ha. Good Luck.
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