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CB77
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(CVT Production Line)
AUG. 17 - Honda's engine and transmissions plants in Ohio yesterday started mass production of Honda's new "Earth Dreams" powertrain series, a new generation of engines and transmissions that will make their U.S. debut on the all-new 2013 Honda Accord.
Along with a total redesign of the vehicle, the ninth-generation Accord is the first in North America to apply Honda's Earth Dreams engine and transmission technologies that offer improved fuel efficiency and fun-to-drive performance. This includes a new four-cylinder direct injection engine paired with a new Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT), and a new V-6 engine with 6-speed automatic transmission that provide an excellent combination of fuel efficiency and performance.
"This next generation of technological advancements in our powertrains will greatly enhance both driving performance and fuel efficiency," said John Spoltman, plant manager of the Anna Engine Plant. "Our associates have incredible experience and they are employing all of their skills to launching this exciting new series of engines for an Accord that will excel in all areas."
Honda's Investment in Ohio - Honda Transmission Mfg. of America
Honda is investing $220 million to launch the CVT production for the vehicles produced in North America, including $120 million at Honda Transmission Mfg. of America for the new CVT line that started mass production yesterday, and nearly $100 million at the Anna Engine Plant for the production of the CVT's high-tech pulley components starting next year.
The expanded production will create 150 jobs at the two plants.
"Our continuing investments in Ohio illustrate how we intend to meet the needs of our global customers by implementing advanced technologies in our production operations and in our products," said Honda Transmission Plant Manager Gary Hand. "Our associates are looking forward to delivering best quality as we launch these new CVTs and six-speed automatic transmissions."
Associates at Honda Transmission are assembling the Accord CVTs on a new, highly automated assembly line constructed as part of a $70 million, 200,000-square-foot plant expansion. An additional $50 million is being invested in a 75,000-square-foot expansion of the facility for additional aluminum casting operations to support the CVT assembly line.
Anna Engine Plant
At the Anna Engine Plant, construction is under way to utilize 84,000-square-feet of space for production of the CVT pulley components, which involves highly precise lathing, heat-treating, grinding and subassembly operations. Production of the CVT pulleys will begin at the engine plant next year, when that production will transfer from initial CVT pulley production in Japan.
Following assembly at Honda Transmission, the CVTs and six-speed automatic transmissions are shipped to the Anna Engine Plant, where they are joined to the engines at the end of the engine assembly operations. Then the powertrain components are shipped to the Accord assembly lines at the Marysville Auto Plant. With capacity to manufacture 1.18 million V-6 and four-cylinder engines annually, the Anna plant is the largest automobile engine factory in Honda's global production network.
The 2013 Accord Sedan and Coupe will feature all-new powertrains, including the first U.S. application of the new Earth Dreams 2.4-liter direct-injected four-cylinder engine. The engine will be paired with a 6-speed manual transmission or the new CVT that utilizes an innovative control system for excellent acceleration and responsive shifting. The Accord Sedan and Coupe also will be offered with a new 3.5-liter V-6 engine, paired to a new 6-speed automatic transmission or an available 6-speed manual transmission.
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ClementZ
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CB77 wrote:
(CVT Production Line)
AUG. 17 - Honda's engine and transmissions plants in Ohio yesterday started mass production of Honda's new "Earth Dreams" powertrain series, a new generation of engines and transmissions that will make their U.S. debut on the all-new 2013 Honda Accord.
Along with a total redesign of the vehicle, the ninth-generation Accord is the first in North America to apply Honda's Earth Dreams engine and transmission technologies that offer improved fuel efficiency and fun-to-drive performance. This includes a new four-cylinder direct injection engine paired with a new Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT), and a new V-6 engine with 6-speed automatic transmission that provide an excellent combination of fuel efficiency and performance.
"This next generation of technological advancements in our powertrains will greatly enhance both driving performance and fuel efficiency," said John Spoltman, plant manager of the Anna Engine Plant. "Our associates have incredible experience and they are employing all of their skills to launching this exciting new series of engines for an Accord that will excel in all areas."
Honda's Investment in Ohio - Honda Transmission Mfg. of America
Honda is investing $220 million to launch the CVT production for the vehicles produced in North America, including $120 million at Honda Transmission Mfg. of America for the new CVT line that started mass production yesterday, and nearly $100 million at the Anna Engine Plant for the production of the CVT's high-tech pulley components starting next year.
The expanded production will create 150 jobs at the two plants.
"Our continuing investments in Ohio illustrate how we intend to meet the needs of our global customers by implementing advanced technologies in our production operations and in our products," said Honda Transmission Plant Manager Gary Hand. "Our associates are looking forward to delivering best quality as we launch these new CVTs and six-speed automatic transmissions."
Associates at Honda Transmission are assembling the Accord CVTs on a new, highly automated assembly line constructed as part of a $70 million, 200,000-square-foot plant expansion. An additional $50 million is being invested in a 75,000-square-foot expansion of the facility for additional aluminum casting operations to support the CVT assembly line.
Anna Engine Plant
At the Anna Engine Plant, construction is under way to utilize 84,000-square-feet of space for production of the CVT pulley components, which involves highly precise lathing, heat-treating, grinding and subassembly operations. Production of the CVT pulleys will begin at the engine plant next year, when that production will transfer from initial CVT pulley production in Japan.
Following assembly at Honda Transmission, the CVTs and six-speed automatic transmissions are shipped to the Anna Engine Plant, where they are joined to the engines at the end of the engine assembly operations. Then the powertrain components are shipped to the Accord assembly lines at the Marysville Auto Plant. With capacity to manufacture 1.18 million V-6 and four-cylinder engines annually, the Anna plant is the largest automobile engine factory in Honda's global production network.
The 2013 Accord Sedan and Coupe will feature all-new powertrains, including the first U.S. application of the new Earth Dreams 2.4-liter direct-injected four-cylinder engine. The engine will be paired with a 6-speed manual transmission or the new CVT that utilizes an innovative control system for excellent acceleration and responsive shifting. The Accord Sedan and Coupe also will be offered with a new 3.5-liter V-6 engine, paired to a new 6-speed automatic transmission or an available 6-speed manual transmission.
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Responsive shifting?
It's a CVT.
I thought there wasn't any "shifting" at all.
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P54
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It "shifts" continuously, seamlessly up or down. That is pretty responsive is it not, instantly in a "new gear" without "shift delay".
Read "gear" as "gear ratio".
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CB77
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Didn't we read somewhere in an earlier post here (probably by Jeff) that Honda's new CVT was designed to feel like a non-CVT transmission, with definite and perceptible "shift points" programmed in and controlled by its computer? The goal being to get rid of the goofy 1953 Buick Dynaflo rubber-band feel that comes with all other CVTs.
Honda uses a similar technology on some of their hydrostatic ATV transmissions, and it works quite well. So maybe we will see a variant of it on this transmission.
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CB77
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CB77 wrote:
Didn't we read somewhere in an earlier post here (probably by Jeff) that Honda's new CVT was designed to feel like a non-CVT transmission, with definite and perceptible "shift points" programmed in and controlled by its computer? The goal being to get rid of the goofy 1953 Buick Dynaflo rubber-band feel that comes with all other CVTs.
Honda uses a similar technology on some of their hydrostatic ATV transmissions, and it works quite well. So maybe we will see a variant of it on this transmission.
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Honda's ATV with this transmission feature also has a mode with infinite shift points...like a conventional CVT. I would suspect that if this new Accord has this type of transmission, it too, will have a selector for 2 modes: 1) A "sport" mode (with 6 or 7 definite fixed-ratios, automatically selected by the computer) and more of a conventional automatic transmission feel. 2) An "econ" mode, where it shifts like a normal CVT.
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P54
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Honda ATV transmissions have no common ground with CVT transmissions. Actually it is only two of their ATV's that have the hydraulic transmission and Honda says that type of transmission is only suitable on 500cc or smaller engines. Hence only the Rubicon 500 (came out 10+ years ago) and the new Rancher 420 with 4 wheel independent suspension and fuel injection got that type of transmission. The top of the line 680cc Rincon got automotive style automatic with torque converter.
Actually Honda is proud to be the only ATV manufacturer without CVT transmission as the common CVT transmission used on ATV is similar to the one used by the first car maker to use CVT, DAF from Holland, their cars was very noisy due to the CVT. Actually it was Buick Dynaflow that inspired DAF to make a automatic for small cars. The CVT was called "variomatic".
The CVT used on all brands of ATV (except Honda} is in the stone age compared to what they use on cars. Rubber belts is an item you have to frequently replace and the clutches needs parts replacement as the parts wear down from day one. Should you need (or rather when you need) clutch replacement you can easily be set back $ 500 per clutch and it is two of them.
The new CVT for Honda cars is a space age apart from the common CVT and very compact. Time will tell how it will perform in daily life, I hope they did their groundwork and tested it thoroughly. I assume it was the new FE standards that caused Honda to go this route and I really hope they got rid of the inherent flaws and weak points of the CVT. Honda seems upbeat about it and that is uncommon from Honda in regard to CVT so hope they got it figured out since they invested hundreds of million dollars on this transmission. I'm glad they still offer manual and regular automatic. Will really like to see how the 7 speed dual clutch transmission works.
Now back to the Honda ATV, they offer manual, electric shift and hydraulic automatic as well as automotive auto with torque converter. The hydraulic automatic also has electric shift. The hydraulic automatic has nothing to do with CVT, no belts and no centrifugal clutches like they use on CVT. It is a self-contained compact unit mounted within the engine and it moves "pistons" operated by oil pressure and the oil used is the engine oil. It is very durable, no maintenance and very smooth "shifting" gears. Actually you cannot feel it, quite seamless.. Still you can lock it in any of the gears (5 of them) and have high and low range.
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Waldo
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CB77 wrote:
Didn't we read somewhere in an earlier post here (probably by Jeff) that Honda's new CVT was designed to feel like a non-CVT transmission, with definite and perceptible "shift points" programmed in and controlled by its computer?
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I don't know if the new Accord transmission is this sophisticated, but by programming the faux shift points on a CVT, it would be possible to vary the "gear" ratio that is represented by each point, according to the instantaneous need. Hard acceleration would give you an entirely different set of six or seven shift points than mild acceleration. Even the passenger weight load of the car, engine temperature, and ambient air temperature could be factored into the shift point map. Lots of possibilities here.
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danielgr
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CB77 wrote:
Didn't we read somewhere in an earlier post here (probably by Jeff) that Honda's new CVT was designed to feel like a non-CVT transmission, with definite and perceptible "shift points" programmed in and controlled by its computer? The goal being to get rid of the goofy 1953 Buick Dynaflo rubber-band feel that comes with all other CVTs.
Honda uses a similar technology on some of their hydrostatic ATV transmissions, and it works quite well. So maybe we will see a variant of it on this transmission.
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What Jeff (and others) have written on the new CVT is that it doesn't apply the typical laggy CVT behavior of "rev-first, drive then", but instead is "responsive". Meaning the transmission starts delivering driving power since the moment you press the throttle and keeps building up revs as you keep it down. To me it didn't sound that surprising since modern Honda CVTs already had that behavior. I guess though that they made the new ED units even more responsive, but I still haven't got to drive a StepWGN to find out (simply not a car I would buy, so no need to bother a dealer for that).
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WongKN
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CB77,
Where is this article published ? Is it internal circulation only ? Can I put it into TOVA/Honda-Fan ?
BTW, like Daniel correctly pointed out, modern CVT/MMT are set such that there is more drive to the wheels in response to opening the throttle, unlike older MMTs which tends to change the gear ratio to let the engine rev go up first, without changing speed. This is the cause for the rubber band feeling many comments about. There is also another aspect to the use of CVT which many are not used to and that is, the aural experience of hearing the engine revving constant, even at a relatively high rpm like 6000rpm, gives the impression that the car is not moving. This is because many drivers are accustomed to an engine 'lagging', where it does not have the torque/power to pull the car so what you get is the engine's constant drone at WOT. In those cases, the car is hardly moving.
In the case of a CVT car, the car is actually accelerating at its max, but if one'e eyes is not on the speedo, then for all the current Hondas with a CVT, because the acceleration is not very high, the mind just ties it sub-conciously to the experience of 'the engine is lagging'. This is something which will be difficult to overcome with the CVT.
Maybe things will change with this new Accord if Honda uses it with the larger 2.4l engines and above because then the acceleration will be better and if we have a slight 'push against the seat' sensation, then hearing the engine revving at a constant 6000-7000rpm might no longer give that feeling of 'engine lagging'.
Would appreciate your answer to my questions at the start of this post. Thanks.
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CB77
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WongKN,
Yes, the article I posted is from an internal, employees-only Honda website. The quote from it that got me thinking about the possibility of computer-controlled "shift points" is this: "The engine will be paired with a 6-speed manual transmission or the new CVT that utilizes an innovative control system for excellent acceleration and responsive shifting." This rang a bell, since as I said, Honda uses these "fake shift points" on a couple of ATV transmissions. Yes, they are not CVT transmissions (as P54 so enthusiastically points out to me), they are hydraulic transmissions. But this same technique could be applied to a CVT.
As far as I am concerned, this is public information, so I have no problem with you re-posting it.
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WongKN
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Thanks CB77,
I am unsure what to make of the info about the new CVT's "innovative control system for excellent acceleration and responsive shifting". I have been using Honda's Multimatic (MMT or CVT as they are called in JDM) from 1995 when I bought my JDM EK3 Civic Ferio Vi which uses the 1G MMT. I am really curious about this latest change though I am not sure if I will have the chance to sample it as there is no indication it will come to ASEAN in the near future.
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TonyEX
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WongKN wrote:
CB77,
...
BTW, like Daniel correctly pointed out, modern CVT/MMT are set such that there is more drive to the wheels in response to opening the throttle, unlike older MMTs which tends to change the gear ratio to let the engine rev go up first, without changing speed. This is the cause for the rubber band feeling many comments about. There is also another aspect to the use of CVT which many are not used to and that is, the aural experience of hearing the engine revving constant, even at a relatively high rpm like 6000rpm, gives the impression that the car is not moving. This is because many drivers are accustomed to an engine 'lagging', where it does not have the torque/power to pull the car so what you get is the engine's constant drone at WOT. In those cases, the car is hardly moving.
In the case of a CVT car, the car is actually accelerating at its max, but if one'e eyes is not on the speedo, then for all the current Hondas with a CVT, because the acceleration is not very high, the mind just ties it sub-conciously to the experience of 'the engine is lagging'. This is something which will be difficult to overcome with the CVT.
Maybe things will change with this new Accord if Honda uses it with the larger 2.4l engines and above because then the acceleration will be better and if we have a slight 'push against the seat' sensation, then hearing the engine revving at a constant 6000-7000rpm might no longer give that feeling of 'engine lagging'.
Would appreciate your answer to my questions at the start of this post. Thanks.
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I find it very hard to keep the speed constant in our HCH on the open road. This is because I've tuned my "personal cruise control" to drive "by ear" and having the CVT change things on me is not part of my software.
Ergo, on the open road I use cruise control a lot.
Another thing about the rubber band feeling is that on acceleration -such as it is- you tend to overshoot the speed you want unless you start to back off the gas before getting there. This is very common behavior with stuff that behaves like an integrator... ie: warming or cooling machines... So, in essence the "standard" CVT is an energy integrator that pumps energy into the system until a desired speed is achieved.. at which point the acceleration drops to zero.
In such systems, the change of the acceleration is described as the "derivative" factor...
When you program such a system, say an oven, you want to reach the desired temp asymptotically, thus you specify both an "integrator" -defines the final temp- and a "derivative" -how fast you get there without overshooting.
Once you understand such a model, then you understand how a "normal" CVT works and you understand why cruise control is the most efficient manner to drive such a system.
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TonyEX
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The return of the HONDAMATIC????
Yikes. ;-)
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FiSH-Chan
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TonyE wrote:
The return of the HONDAMATIC????
Yikes. ;-)
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Am I the only one that noticed that CVT in the picture looks really big, or are the people handling really small
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TonyEX
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
TonyE wrote:
The return of the HONDAMATIC????
Yikes. ;-)
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Am I the only one that noticed that CVT in the picture looks really big, or are the people handling really small
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I think that's the engine block.
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FiSH-Chan
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TonyE wrote:
I think that's the engine block. |
Oh! I turn my head sideways and see it! That made sense! LOL
Why did the picture say CVT production line
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CB77
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FISH-Chan,
"Am I the only one that noticed that CVT in the picture looks really big, or are the people handling really small?"
Yes, I thought the same thing...it looks massive, and I do not believe it is the engine block, it is the CVT case. I say that because the caption to this CVT picture says that this is the transmission assembly line...and the accompanying article says that the finished transmissions are then shipped to the engine assembly line in Anna, OH for final assembly. So that would mean that an engine block never makes it into the transmission plant.
I am reposting the picture below, with the original caption…plus I am posting a picture of the engine assembly line, with its original caption.
I guess it takes a lot of room inside the transmission cases for that “fake shift points” mechanism…(Ha!)
“Thursday marked the start of mass production of the "Earth Dreams" CVT for the all-new 2013 Honda Accord. The new CVT is being produced on a new assembly line at HTM that resulted in the addition of more than 100 jobs.”
“Mass production of Honda's new generation of fuel-efficient "Earth Dreams" engines started Thursday at the Anna Engine Plant for the all-new 2013 Honda Accord. The new engine will be joined with an all-new CVT being produced at HTM.”
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BorisHonda
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Did anybody of you guys (and gals) Actually drive for extended period of time vehicle with CVT?
My Vespa 250cc has it and if Accord performs similar to THAT transmission then YES I want it. It has great acceleration, no 'rubbery' feeling, no artificial 'gears' (I would hate that with passion) to 'simulate shift', nice engine brake performance (you cannot coast far when releasing throttle), sweet spot of ~5800 rpm when speed stabilizes (meaning it will be around 6K RPM if you go 60 or 80km/h), etc.
But maybe scooters' are different than cars... in terms of transmission.
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Gfn8r
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As I've stated in other places, I'm going to test drive an Accord before I pull the trigger, even if initial ride/drive impressions are favorable (or even if they go with something other than straight MacStruts), just to be sure, unlike my last Accord which was purchased on faith and experience. (My 2000 EXL-V6 was purchased after a test drive of my Dad's '99, which included a WOT run down an on-ramp where, at the end, I thought surely I was only going at 85 or so, but was at a buck-ten and pulling like mad! THAT'S why I like the J-series 6s; no replacement for displacement!!! 8-D )
Back on-topic, besides the V6 which I'll eventually buy (EXL w/NAVI or Touring), I'm going to take an ED 4-banger with the CVT out, just to see how it feels. It'll be interesting!
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FiSH-Chan
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CB77 wrote:
FISH-Chan,
"Am I the only one that noticed that CVT in the picture looks really big, or are the people handling really small?"
Yes, I thought the same thing...it looks massive, and I do not believe it is the engine block, it is the CVT case. I say that because the caption to this CVT picture says that this is the transmission assembly line...and the accompanying article says that the finished transmissions are then shipped to the engine assembly line in Anna, OH for final assembly. So that would mean that an engine block never makes it into the transmission plant.
I guess it takes a lot of room inside the transmission cases for that “fake shift points” mechanism…(Ha!)
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Yeah in this image the CVT does look larger than usual, but I think if that first picture is actually the CVT then it could be that the people working on that are smaller in size (compare that person on the left side compared to the other 2 on the right side in this pic)
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Fan Koni
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Somehow I think it all looks more compact than the K24 in the background.
CB77 wrote:
“Mass production of Honda's new generation of fuel-efficient "Earth Dreams" engines started Thursday at the Anna Engine Plant for the all-new 2013 Honda Accord. The new engine will be joined with an all-new CVT being produced at HTM.”
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