Once upon a time the Honda Civic Si held a dominant position within the sport compact world. But these days its not only been dethroned in the performance department by the Mazdaspeed3, it’s in serious jeopardy of being pushed even further back in the pack by the likes of the new Ford Focus ST. And if that’s not enough to make the execs at Honda flop a sweat, suddenly there’s not one but two serious contenders for the sport compact title that are motivated by their rear wheels. We are, of course, talking about the Subaru BRZ and its twin brother from Scion.
I want to see this repeated a few more times before I believe it to be a fact. I wouldn't have expected my 8th Gen fitted in HFP trim to beat one of these in a million years.
...and that is no hate for the Civic, by the way. Fitted out in HFP trim, things are improved, but all I have seen to this point is pretty hot lap times for the BRZ in almost every test. Cars like the Megane have given it a hard run, but we are talking some much heavier HP, and not an equal footing against cars like the 86 and Si.
DCR wrote: ...and that is no hate for the Civic, by the way. Fitted out in HFP trim, things are improved, but all I have seen to this point is pretty hot lap times for the BRZ in almost every test. Cars like the Megane have given it a hard run, but we are talking some much heavier HP, and not an equal footing against cars like the 86 and Si.
Give me 5 minutes with the Si to adjust the rear tyre pressures, and I bet I could stretch the Si's lead by a second, and it would be almost as tail happy as the BRZ :)
Some of my clients fitted some Nitto NT-01s to their FR-S and picked up nearly 7 seconds/lap on a 2 minute course - and these are national champion level drivers at a high level. That's how crappy the US spec "summer" eco tires are on the FR-S. I can't imagine how bad they all-seasons are in Canada.
The previous gen's HFP suspension package was kinda lame in the sense that it feels oversprung and underdamped; the aftermarket had much better solutions particularly in terms of dampers. It seems like the trend continues.
And no surprises about the results; the K24 seems to be a better overall engine, and stickier rubber... are the 18" wheels fitted with 215 or 225mm profile tires?? I wouldn't expect the Honda to last over a series of laps the way that the Toyobaru would.
Someone needs to tell the other presenter that the Toyobaru's "firm but compliant" suspension is a result of a low CoG and vehicle weight.
Still, if it's everyday useability, the Civic Sedan would win hands down. The Toyobaru might be a contender of they would just make a hatch version...
By the way, I hope that the presenter with glasses reaches puberty and stops voice cracking at some point ;) And I would counter that I DO in fact, like the red floormats, thank you very much!
I thought this thread would be a hotter topic here in the TOV, but it's wednesday.
I'm sure the BRZ hands the Si's ass over to it, but it's still great to see it defend itself despite shortcomings.
I really like the HFP suspension in my 8th gen, and improvements are more than marginal, like 30% better or so. When I say better, I mean less body roll, stiffness, and understeer (~15%), the tires feel like they stick better too (not sure why?). Although, after 178,000 miles, I don't know if 5% of the above still applies lol, it still handles really good though, better than any cars going Speed Limit minus 10mph on ramps.
longhorn wrote: So an SI with an optional handling kit went against a pretty much stock BRZ.................Anyone else see an apple and oranges comparison?
It was always an apples and oranges situation - the sports car BRZ against the sedan based coupe Si. So?
So people are jumping up and down because an Si with an HFP kit and summer tires beat a stock all season tired BRZ by a tenth of a second?!?!? Wow!
Just look at how the cars move on the track, the Civic looks a bit sloppy as it has a tremendous amount of body roll while the BRZ stay pretty flat through all transitions. Of course the Civic would be a better daily driver but the BRZ is way more connected, more tactile and more of an engaging drive. I'll take the BRZ hands down.
Hopefully for the Si, the early MMC will give it a more neutral and flatter handling capabilities while raising tactile performance. It's a shame that Honda used to rule the sports compact car segment and clearly just gave that crown away as the competition hands the Si its ass.
Honda, we know you can do better as the former Si was a better all around performer and the former Civic Type R sedan was pretty monumental as it could whip up on sports cars costing thousands more. I'm certainly not asking for something as aggressive as a Type R but the Si moniker certainly deserves more that what it's currently attached to. As the only "performance" car offering from Honda currently the Si is an embarassmentat best.
kirk wrote: Are we thinking the 2013 Civic is an early MMC? I was thinking it was just a significant update. I would expect an actual MMC in 2015. Just MHO.
I'm pretty sure Honda stated the Civic will receive an early and SIGNIFICANT MMC. I place my bets on upgraded interior materials/design, slight changes to (available/standard) feature content, upgrade in tactile performance, chassis/suspension upgrades and maybe we may see the addition of the EarthDreams drivetrains available.
Jovian8 wrote: btw saw my first Scion FR-S on the road last night.
Looked good.. but it surprised me that it did not look tiny at all.
Wide & squat in a good way!
I've seen two different ones now. Not sure if they are the Subaru or Toyota. I think they look very awkward and somewhat disproportionate. Weird lines and odd-looking head and taillights. It reminded me of the Hyundai Tiberon/Genesis, and how they kind of have an awkward look to them.
Jovian8 wrote: btw saw my first Scion FR-S on the road last night.
Looked good.. but it surprised me that it did not look tiny at all.
Wide & squat in a good way!
I've seen two different ones now. Not sure if they are the Subaru or Toyota. I think they look very awkward and somewhat disproportionate. Weird lines and odd-looking head and taillights. It reminded me of the Hyundai Tiberon/Genesis, and how they kind of have an awkward look to them.
Nope...I have had a car on order since May? I am going to cancel it entirely in September and ride out the winter in the Civic if there is no car for me. The Scion rep is supposedly involved as well but I have no news since they botched my initial order.
Clearly not as aggressive of a tire as the Nitto's, but just proves how horrible the OEM tires are on the Toyobarus.
Also, go back and look at the test results for the 3 segments of the course, the Si only won the power section (1 turn) where it's superior power gave it the advantage. The technical section it was down over a second.
notyper wrote: Some of my clients fitted some Nitto NT-01s to their FR-S and picked up nearly 7 seconds/lap on a 2 minute course - and these are national champion level drivers at a high level. That's how crappy the US spec "summer" eco tires are on the FR-S. I can't imagine how bad they all-seasons are in Canada.
Seriously doubt that anyone here will take Si coupe over BRZ - for about the same money as in that video above.
Si sedan - may be, but coupe?
BRZ/FR-S soon will totally dominate former Si market, mark my words.
Si lost all selling points it had in the past - it's suspension, engine etc no longer special in any way or shape. Lower price and reliability that is all that left.
CivicB18 wrote: Just look at how the cars move on the track, the Civic looks a bit sloppy as it has a tremendous amount of body roll while the BRZ stay pretty flat through all transitions. Of course the Civic would be a better daily driver but the BRZ is way more connected, more tactile and more of an engaging drive. I'll take the BRZ hands down.
Yeah, why is that? I would think the HFP kit made it less body roll but that sure didn't happen.
Well, it is a TOYOTA after all. The tires must be low rolling resistance and have a good tread-wear rating. But regardless, let's not forget that this car was never supposed to be about LAP TIMES! It was about FUN from the start, so the smooth transitions into a RWD slide due to the lower grip limits are part of the point of this car. "Better" tires might make such hooliganism less accessible to most drivers, which thereby misses the point of FUN. Most of us aren't national champion level drivers, let's face it. If you want to be the fastest around a track, then there are better options, even at this price point. Upgrading tires leads to a desire for more power/torque... which means more displacement (less revs)/engine/weight or forced induction with dulled throttle response etc. etc. so something is lost in the process. The engineers' philosophy was to ignore the numbers and just focus on feel... so why are we looking at the numbers? This car is for people who want to go out on a racetrack or curvy road to enjoy themselves without worrying about being the fastest. Seems like many people can't separate these two things, unfortunately. But based on the reviews in the fun department, it looks like they succeeded. I'd say the tires' "crappy" low-grip characteristics fit well with the intended purpose of the car. The faster Si was not more enjoyable around the track, that's for sure. We could tell just by looking at the footage!
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