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TOV Forums > NSX > > Re: HPD CR-Z drive impressions

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RolledaNsx
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NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2012 19:38
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Sorry no pictures of the mule but they got a picture of the three cars they was testing with: 458, MP412C, R8.

They we're seen last week by the some racers at the Chump24 race at VIR.

Also seen was a TL SH-AWD 6MT with fender flares and what looked like a hopped up CR-Z.

A little early to be testing a mule(just saw the clay model first time in early December) usually you don't see the first mule for a year and it is just power train testing on a different chassis(s2000 or first gen Nsx) then by year two you will start seeing the complete mule. But they might be ahead of the game because they already tested the power train with the RLX,can bypass that step.
sadlerau
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Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2012 19:51
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RolledaNsx wrote:
A little early to be testing a mule(just saw the clay model first time in early December) usually you don't see the first mule for a year and it is just power train testing on a different chassis(s2000 or first gen Nsx) then by year two you will start seeing the complete mule. But they might be ahead of the game because they already tested the power train with the RLX,can bypass that step.


Sorry I don't agree that the RLX's development would help too much with the NSX's drivetrain development. While we know that the NSX shares the "concept" of petrol engine/electric motor combo and 2 electric motors for the opposite end axle, the fact one is front mounted and the other is rear mounted would mean there would be very little crossover in software, let alone hardware. And they are two very different beasts in regards to performance targets.

As to why they are so advanced on development, perhaps the F1 bred engineer's are bringing speedy development to the table? :)
RolledaNsx
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Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2012 20:06
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It takes about two years min. to develop a new powertrain if there is no gremlins.The 7sp dual-clutch was designed for the the cancelled Nsx, so that helps,going to use the same electric motor combo as the RlX, just upgraded.The engine might be different(the engine designers are very mum on it) but they been working on it since 2010.
Chocs
Profile for Chocs
Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2012 20:18
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Maybe not completely bypass drivetrain testing, but it should be possible to develop power management properties even if the ends are swapped around. We know the batteries and its application will be an integral part to the NSX's daily use.
RolledaNsx
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Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2012 20:34
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Also to be testing against the benchmarks in class at that tough track the development is far along.
revvin
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Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2012 20:57
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awesome. if we get a 458 and mp4-12c and their successors killer, we've got a special car to get excited about.
RolledaNsx
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Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2012 21:01
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A little about VIR

It's murder on production cars and is like the Nurburgring.
There's never a moment when the car rests at a steady state. each lap tests every aspect of a car, including power, brakes, steering, tire grip and chassis balance.

Honda picked a great track to test
sadlerau
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Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2012 22:54
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RolledaNsx wrote:
A little about VIR

It's murder on production cars and is like the Nurburgring.
There's never a moment when the car rests at a steady state. each lap tests every aspect of a car, including power, brakes, steering, tire grip and chassis balance.

Honda picked a great track to test



Is it bumpy as well? Problem with billiard top race tracks is they hide a car's compliance problems.....
RolledaNsx
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Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2012 23:22
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yes its bumpy
bigblue
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Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-17-2012 14:10
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RolledaNsx wrote:
and what looked like a hopped up CR-Z.
Are you local to VIR ? If accurate, I wonder if that was the GT300 CR-Z or something else.

JeffX
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Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-17-2012 14:23
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bigblue wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
and what looked like a hopped up CR-Z.
Are you local to VIR ? If accurate, I wonder if that was the GT300 CR-Z or something else.




possibly one of the turbocharged thunderhill CR-Zs(?), like this one:


bigblue
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Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-17-2012 14:52
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I'm losing track of these hotter CR-Z's, and they all seem to be vapourware anyway ! So ... the US went turbo instead of supercharged like the Mugen Euro iCF ? Remind me who did this US car, is it Honda Racing in the US ? Why would the US do turbo, Europe do supercharged and neither actually appear for sale ? Or is the US one just for racing ? If so, is it actually contesting events ?
JeffX
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Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-17-2012 15:02
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bigblue wrote:
I'm losing track of these hotter CR-Z's, and they all seem to be vapourware anyway ! So ... the US went turbo instead of supercharged like the Mugen Euro iCF ? Remind me who did this US car, is it Honda Racing in the US ? Why would the US do turbo, Europe do supercharged and neither actually appear for sale ? Or is the US one just for racing ? If so, is it actually contesting events ?



25 Hours of Thunderhill Race Report
12/05/2010 - Willows, CA

25 Hours of Thunderhill Race Report

Circuit: Thunderhill Park (3.286-mile road course), Willows, CA
Weather: Overcast, cool, 48 degrees F (nighttime showers and fog)

Honda CR-Z Hybrid Finishes Second at Thunderhill

A valiant, come-from-behind effort from Honda Performance Development (HPD) came up just short at the 25 Hours of Thunderhill, as HPD's hybrid Honda CR-Z racer recovered from a near 10-lap deficit to finish second in the Endurance 3 class in the 2010 edition of the National Auto Sport Association's (NASA) season-ending event.

Driving the #19 CR-Z for the final three hours, Lawson Aschenbach moved onto the lead lap during the final hour, and closed to within 1 minute, 10 seconds of the winning Mazdacage.net Mazda Miata at the checkers, the closest finish among the half-dozen classes competing in this year's 25 Hours. The two E3 competitors finished 8th and 9th overall in the 72-car field, ahead of many faster-category entries.

It was a weekend of firsts for Honda Racing and HPD, marking the first time the racing arm of American Honda has fielded its own race team; the first appearance of racing cars completely developed and adapted in-house at HPD; and the first appearance of North American racing cars developed from existing production-model gas-electric hybrids: the Honda CR-Z.

After starting from the E3 pole in the hands of Peter Cunningham, refueling problems with the #19 Honda cost it a pair of five-minute "stop-and-hold" penalties early in the race. Later, additional repairs were needed to meet track noise statutes, costing the team additional time as night – and steady rain – fell on the northern California road course, dropping the CR-Z nearly 10 laps off the lead.

A second HPD Honda, the #93 CR-Z, took over the early-race E3 class lead when its teammate was delayed, with driver Simon Pagenaud setting the fast race lap for the class at 2:03.180 in the opening hours. But the CR-Z sustained substantial body and suspension damage in an Hour 4 crash, when Sage Marie lost control and rolled exiting Turn 2.

After three hours of repairs by the HPD crew, the Honda returned to action in 21st position and moved up to 16th in the night hours, but was retired just before 8 a.m. Sunday with transmission failure.

The dramas involving the #93 Honda helped set the stage for the come-from-behind effort by the #19 team, which began a long, steady climb through the field as Aschenbach, Cunningham and Chad Gilsinger each drove multiple tints, lapping an average of 2.5-seconds quicker than the competition in their effort. Aschenbach turned into the "iron man" of the event, driving more than seven-and-a-half hours in all.

The Honda Team Research-West Honda Fit, prepared by associates from Honda R&D, finished fourth in class, 15th overall, and was the best-placed of three E3 cars built to new "B-Spec" rules.

Featuring only limited performance modifications to an essential stock Fit, the THR-W team had a steady, uneventful 25 Hours, gradually edging out an advantage over the pair of Mazda2s that were also prepared to B-Spec rules, and breaking into the top five in E3 by Sunday morning to finish 15th overall.

Highlights from the 2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill will be televised as a one-hour Versus Network special, airing at 6 p.m. EDT on Wednesday, March 23.

Michael Kinstle (HPD CR-Z Race Team Large Project Leader): "I'd be lying if I didn't admit that we're just a bit disappointed at not being able to pull off a come-from-behind victory. But I'm completely proud of what we've accomplished in our first event as a race team, the first race for the Honda CR-Z, and the first race for a hybrid production-based car. The Honda CR-Z gave us an excellent package as a starting point – we just enhanced it. We also were fortunate to have a truly amazing driver lineup and incredible tires from BFGoodrich. We ran one set of rain tires for more than 330 laps; more than 1,000 miles. So, a big ‘thank you' to BFG."

Lawson Aschenbach (driver, #19 HPD Honda CRZ) finished 2nd in the Endurance 3 class and 9th overall: "The Honda CR-Z was fantastic. It handles so great, and ran flawlessly for the whole 25 hours. My hat's off to the entire HPD team, all our sponsors and of course BFG for the excellent tires. It's a shame we came up just a bit short at the end, but this team can take a lot of pride in what we achieved this weekend."

bigblue
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Re: NSX mule spotted at Virginia International Raceway..    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-17-2012 15:14
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Oh right, that's pretty cool (racing pedigree for the much abused CR-Z :-)). And sounds at least somewhat related to the production model. Thanks for the info.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
HPD CR-Z drive impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-17-2012 15:18
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To add further, I had the opportunity to drive the turbocharged CR-Z shown in the photo I posted above. HPD hosted an event out at the Streets of Willow last fall and it was an absolute blast.

In short, the HPD CR-Z is an amazing track car, yet it still falls short in the engine department. They've done phenomenal work with the turbocharger setup - to be quite honest it feels quite a bit like a naturally aspirated long-stroke (low revving) VTEC engine. Torque comes on nicely in the lower rpm range, and there's a VTEC-like surge right around 4500 rpms, as if there's a switch to the 'big cams'. From there it pulls nice and hard but only briefly. As you cross 6000 rpms, the world's most subtle rev limiter/boost bleeder forces you to upshift.

Where this car wins the most is in the chassis. Actually, every one of the HPD cars (Thunderhill Civic Si, and the Fit B-spec) I drove were so well sorted it seems like just about anyone could strap on a helmet and go belt out consistently fast laps. They were all similar in the way that they all felt like they could handle at least double the power that their respective engines delivered, so maybe that's one of the things that limited their "thrill factor" a bit on the track.

The chassis has tons of grip, pretty good turn in but they were all set up with a safe dose of understeer. Given the tendency of automotive "hotshoes" (LOL!) to overdrive cars on media track days, it wouldn't surprise me if these cars were tweaked to be as safe as possible.

Anyhow, the turbo CR-Z was certainly faster than a stock one, and more fun, but what worries me is that by old-school Honda pocket-rocket standards I'm afraid it's nowhere near exciting enough (even in race trim) to add much to the enthusiast appeal of the current CR-Z. The substantially fattened torque and power curve of the turbocharged engine certainly helps but for me there's still wasn't enough driving excitement. Torque tends to make cars feel faster than they really are, and it always leaves me wanting for more POWER.
bigblue
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Re: HPD CR-Z drive impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-17-2012 16:46
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Thanks for that too, interesting that you felt something was lacking ... would both a bit of low-end torque to get you off the line smartly, and a bit of top-end scream once you're going be a good feeling ? Which car could Honda use to introduce the first hybrid Type-R (Type-H ?). Something small and sporty would be nice ...

If it (or even a non-hybrid alternative) was also modestly tyred, with a sharp ~1.5 litre engine that you can drive flat out everywhere, then so much the better (if you're reading Honda, go out and drive a 205 GTi 1.6, and reproduce the sensation). In real-world driving, is the VTEC zone on a 2.0 Si / Type-R seen that often ? It usually results in an amount of speed that can be hard to explain ... I seem to be in minority of about one in wanting slightly slower, smaller (CR-Z, Jazz) Type-R's that are as sharp and responsive as ever. I think this is the opposite of your craving for POWER :-).

Making fun real-world cars is difficult, here's Chris Harris having a go in the GT-86 (and 350Z and Cayman) http://youtu.be/JUhLXvxlQR4 and remarking on just this. Well worth a watch. I think I've dragged things well off-topic !

 
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