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TonyEX
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| 2013 TSX
(Score: 1, Normal)
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07-30-2012 21:34 |
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Will there be such?
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Slawsk
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There will be a 2013 TSX, but 2014 is highly questionable. Introduced in 2009, the second-generation TSX has one model year left on its assumed 5-year cycle.
Personally, with Mr. Ito leading the company, I believe he will axe it, only to rush out a new generation after much outcry from Honda enthusiasts around the world wondering what the hell happened to their Accord.
The 2004 TSX was a wonderful vehicle, good looking, well balanced, wonderful chassis, great engine, well appointed and properly priced. I believe it was brought in because some execs at Honda were worried the striking 2004 TL might not be well received.
The 2009 variant was tuned for American tastes, which means it had a bigger nose to handle a V6, and a bigger butt for more legroom. Think of it as a modernized 99-03 TL. This appeals to American tastes, but not European. The steering isn't what the 2004 model was, and the grille was ruined with the corporate shield. Thus, the Euro Accord has suffered, not only because it's not suited for European tastes, but because the saloon market is in general decline.
Acura hardly makes any money on the Japanese-built TSX, and I think they were hoping the overpriced ILX would have been more of a success than it currently is. I think most people see the ILX for what it really is, an overpriced, good looking Civic. Certainly being built in Indiana and sharing basic bits from the Civic help the ILX be more of money maker, but if they only sell 24K units annually, it won't be much of a hit. Even worse, the ILX will only further hurt Acura's sinking reputation as a serious marque to be contended with. None of the competition is taking the ILX seriously, because it isn't very competitive at the price Acura is asking for.
What made Acura such a rising star at the beginning of the last decade was the high value-for-money quotient combined with reasonably-good looking, well accepted styling. Over the past 5 years, Acura has been trying too hard to appeal to a customer base that barely exists, with the Power Plenum Shield, ZDX, SH-AWD, and now, ILX.
It's time for Acura to launch efficient, turbo-diesel vehicles to get back in the minds and hearts of near-luxury buyers.
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TonyEX
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I've driven both first and second gen TSXs, thank you. I've owned TSXs, Accords, TLs since time immemorial.
The first gen was too tight in the back seat, the second gen stretched the back seat and door, although it is still tight.
By comparison, the Accord and TL are cavernous.
The Civic, yes, the Civic, has more room in the back seat too.
I've owned a bunch of TLs over the years, and trust me, the TL is a different beast than the TSX. It has always been since, oooh... hmm... my 93 Vigor? 97 3.2, 99, 04....
The 04 TL, indeed was the best, although the current one is better dynamically, but hampered by the lousy Power Plenum.
The TSX also got hammered by the Power Plenum, but not so much. The MMC toned it down a lot more to the point where it's not ugly anymore.
The current gen is nothing like the 99-03 TL... those were actually very lithe, very smooth and supple drivers. The first gen TSX could be like that... except that the V6 TL was much faster, powerful and quicker... I almost got on 05 TSX MT6 but decided instead to go with an 05 Accord V6 MT6 coupe for very obvious reasons (plus I also had an 04 TL and 05 OTR in the garage... so I didn't really need two sedans).
The current TSX is much more like the 04 in that sense, it has a heavier, more substantial feel to it.
WHY DID I ASK?
I currently have a '12 TSX Wagon on a one year lease. I would prefer to lease a '13 Wagon and then buy that one on '14 when the run ends unless either ILX grows a K24 wagon or the TL ships a wagon at a reasonable cost. We don't really want an RDX.
The TSX Wagon, with its I4, is no road runner but a wonderful tourer. It has a sweet spot at around 80mph, feels solid and in Tech Mode has ELS and the still unspoiled NAVI that lets you use it on the road without being stuck to the idiotic voice commands only.
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MarkR
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Slawsk wrote:
The 2004 TSX was a wonderful vehicle, good looking, well balanced, wonderful chassis, great engine, well appointed and properly priced. I believe it was brought in because some execs at Honda were worried the striking 2004 TL might not be well received.
The 2009 variant was tuned for American tastes, which means it had a bigger nose to handle a V6, and a bigger butt for more legroom. Think of it as a modernized 99-03 TL. This appeals to American tastes, but not European. The steering isn't what the 2004 model was, and the grille was ruined with the corporate shield. Thus, the Euro Accord has suffered, not only because it's not suited for European tastes, but because the saloon market is in general decline.
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Very much agreed, I had a 2004 EuroAccord(TSX) 2.4 as a company car while my second being a S2K at that time, people around me at work asked why I chose a Honda as a company car but they understood when they were riding with me, super duper nice car, interior, well specced and 190hp (more that BMW&Audi did for the same price), it was just generally a very competitive vehicle.
2012, not so much, for less money you can have an Audi&BMW which is quicker and better perceived quality, oh how times have changed.
Honda, look what you did with 2004 TSX/Accord and do it again, but not again by repeating the spec, now it's almost 10years later so you need to up the spec by ALOT, as your competitors have done.
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typer_801
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The decision on the TSX should be interesting. I was talking with the sales manager at the local Acura dealership over the weekend. He indicated that he's seeing increased traffic due to the ILX launch, but most folks become more interested in the TSX after reviewing features, taking a test drive and realizing it's only around $800 more than a comparably equipped ILX.
He said he's made several 'upsells' to TSX based on ILX inquiries and would really hate for the TSX to disappear from the line-up because it's a MUCH more substantial car than the ILX, not to mention it's at a price point that well below the TL.
He also said the word from Acura was they lose $2500 per TSX they sell because of strong yen, which echoes the comments seen recently regarding the Fit, CR-Z and other japan manufactured Hondas.
Ito and his obsession with the balance sheet won't let this continue, something will have to give and it's probably adios TSX, or at least the TSX as we know it.
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gogzy
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it's funny that Acura decides not to bring TSX Wagon to Canada. I still don't understand; consider the strong CDN dollar may be offset some strong Yen.
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longhorn
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typer_801 wrote:
The decision on the TSX should be interesting. I was talking with the sales manager at the local Acura dealership over the weekend. He indicated that he's seeing increased traffic due to the ILX launch, but most folks become more interested in the TSX after reviewing features, taking a test drive and realizing it's only around $800 more than a comparably equipped ILX.
He said he's made several 'upsells' to TSX based on ILX inquiries and would really hate for the TSX to disappear from the line-up because it's a MUCH more substantial car than the ILX, not to mention it's at a price point that well below the TL.
He also said the word from Acura was they lose $2500 per TSX they sell because of strong yen, which echoes the comments seen recently regarding the Fit, CR-Z and other japan manufactured Hondas.
Ito and his obsession with the balance sheet won't let this continue, something will have to give and it's probably adios TSX, or at least the TSX as we know it.
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If Mr. Ito is to do his job, he better not let that continue. Emotions aside, the Yen has made the TSX a bad business case.
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Waldo
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The 2013 Accord platform is supposed to be slightly smaller and lighter than the current Accord. So here is what Acura could do for 2014, all made in Ohio . . .
Build the TSX off a slightly shorter Accord, and offer it in 4cyl only.
Build the TLX off a slightly longer Accord.
Or, if they decide to drop the TSX model name . . .
Build the TLX in both 4cyl, 6cyl, and hybrid versions, following the Accord linup, but more powerful and sportier. The TLX 4 would replace the TSX.
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TheGandalf
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I understand the reasons to drop the TSX and they could have been valid with the arrival of the ILX. The problem is that th ILX is way to expensive for the features it offers (maybe the future - and hopefully new future - adoption of ED engines, this might be ok) so it is turning to be somewhat of a disapointment.
If the ILX was correctly priced based on what it offers, the gap between this car and the TL (soon to be TLX) would be too big (unless they drop the prices with the TLX, which I doubt they'll do).
If the ILX had a better powertrain to justify it current pricing it would make all this a sounder strategy.
So, to me, the big issue is not so much that the TSX is going to be chopped, the issue is that the ILX strategy was botched and it does not cover the gap that the TSX will leave...
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TheGandalf
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understand the reasons to drop the TSX and they could have been valid with the arrival of the ILX. The problem is that th ILX is way to expensive for the features it offers (maybe the future - and hopefully new future - adoption of ED engines, this might be ok) so it is turning to be somewhat of a disapointment.
If the ILX was correctly priced based on what it offers, the gap between this car and the TL (soon to be TLX) would be too big (unless they drop the prices with the TLX, which I doubt they'll do).
If the ILX had a better powertrain to justify it current pricing it would make all this a sounder strategy.
So, to me, the big issue is not so much that the TSX is going to be chopped, the issue is that the ILX strategy was botched and it does not cover the gap that the TSX will leave...
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JeffX
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TheGandalf wrote:
understand the reasons to drop the TSX and they could have been valid with the arrival of the ILX. The problem is that th ILX is way to expensive for the features it offers (maybe the future - and hopefully new future - adoption of ED engines, this might be ok) so it is turning to be somewhat of a disapointment.
If the ILX was correctly priced based on what it offers, the gap between this car and the TL (soon to be TLX) would be too big (unless they drop the prices with the TLX, which I doubt they'll do).
If the ILX had a better powertrain to justify it current pricing it would make all this a sounder strategy.
So, to me, the big issue is not so much that the TSX is going to be chopped, the issue is that the ILX strategy was botched and it does not cover the gap that the TSX will leave...
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the problems are several fold. First off, the TSX is likely being sold at a loss to HMC. The TSX probably would not sell well at all at the price point where it NEEDS to be for Honda to make a profit on it. At its current transaction point, it's a great value - it's an extremely well made automobile, and it makes the ILX look too expensive for what you get.
The ILX is probably priced at a "fair" point as far as cost goes, but with the more luxurious and better engineered TSX currently selling at very close price point, the ILX's pricing makes it a tough sale at the moment.
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CivicB18
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The issue with the TSX is on one hand it isn't necessary but on the other hand it is. By that I mean if the TL is getting smaller then that makes the TSX redundant. However, if the TSX goes away there's a pretty large gap between the ILX and TL in terms of performance and substance.
~Patrick
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TonyEX
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typer_801 wrote:
The decision on the TSX should be interesting. I was talking with the sales manager at the local Acura dealership over the weekend. He indicated that he's seeing increased traffic due to the ILX launch, but most folks become more interested in the TSX after reviewing features, taking a test drive and realizing it's only around $800 more than a comparably equipped ILX.
He said he's made several 'upsells' to TSX based on ILX inquiries and would really hate for the TSX to disappear from the line-up because it's a MUCH more substantial car than the ILX, not to mention it's at a price point that well below the TL.
He also said the word from Acura was they lose $2500 per TSX they sell because of strong yen, which echoes the comments seen recently regarding the Fit, CR-Z and other japan manufactured Hondas.
Ito and his obsession with the balance sheet won't let this continue, something will have to give and it's probably adios TSX, or at least the TSX as we know it.
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Hell, it's simple. Build the TSX in NA.
And, yes, comparing the ILX and the TSX is a no brainer. In the TSX you can get the K24, AT5/MT6, Teck package with NAVI and ELS, four wheel wishbone suspension, etc... it's simply a no brainer at all.
And, you have the TSX wagon.
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TonyEX
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CivicB18 wrote:
The issue with the TSX is on one hand it isn't necessary but on the other hand it is. By that I mean if the TL is getting smaller then that makes the TSX redundant. However, if the TSX goes away there's a pretty large gap between the ILX and TL in terms of performance and substance.
~Patrick
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AHM claims that it can build several cars on the same line at the same time.
The TL would have to drop substantially to replace the TSX. I mean, it would have to be decontented hugely... which would be a huge mistake for AHM to do. I was bad enough when they did the Power Plenum redesign and raised the price 5K but AHM needs to maintain whatever brand loyalty they have and built it anew with the next TL.. and making it a TSX replacement ain't the way to do it.
(NOTE: Dropping the price of a car hurts the resale of the older model and really pisses off the owners... Let me tell you, we didn't lose money on the 97 3.2TL but we didn't make any either).
Hence, the TL needs to stay where it's at, add a good looking body, increase it's efficiency while keeping the power and keep the SH-AWD and MT6 availabity....
It will be up to the RL to move to eSH-AWD.
The ILX? Hell, you can not have an entry level car priced at $25K and expect it to range all the way to the TL's $39K. BMW sort of pulls that with the 3 series but that vehicle has many, many iteration and it's not sold as an entry $25K car. For a "luxo" brand, the ILX can not carry up to $39K.
Which posits the question.. WHAT THE HELL WAS ACURA MARKETING notTHINKING WHEN THEY PRICED THE ILX?
I mean, the way I look at it, there is nothing wrong with the car that a few more trim options and lower price won't fix. I mean, the interior is almost as big as the TSX, true, but it does not feel as solid as the TSX and it still has the Civic front suspension...
And, the top dog ILX does not offer AT nor Tech package? WTF?
I dare say that an ILX-S with K24, AT6 and Tech priced at $33K would undercut sales of the base TSX.
The ILX-S with MT6, LSD and no Tech should go for no more than $30K. Otherwise people will look at the Civic Si and realize that for under 24K you can get the K24/MT6/LSD/Navi.. even if the stereo is not as good and if the little Acura details are missing.. well... it's still a lot less money...
I mean, the GSR and RSX-S were genuinely MUCH better than the Si's of their time. They were worth every penny.
And rethinking the ILX would allow AHM to pull the price of the TSX up by 2000 bucks more so they could keep making it in JP or bring it over to NA.. and then make lots of money on both ILX and TSX...
While leaving the TLX where it's at.
The RLX? Well... I think it's still too small. It will continue to be undercut by the TLX.
Of course, Acura's mismarketing could prove me wrong and screw up the whole applecart..
Make the TL smaller and cheaper. ( Really pissing off the remaining loyal owners).
Drop the TSX ( Really pissing off the dealers and kissing off the owners)
Sell the ILX for 2000 more than it deserves ( Not selling any )
Hmm.. Now you know why the last TSX wagon I lease ('12 or '13) will be the one we buy when it goes off lease.
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NSXforever
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Will there be a wagon ILX if the TSX wagon is dropped?
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TonyEX
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NSXforever wrote:
Will there be a wagon ILX if the TSX wagon is dropped?
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What with Acura misMarketing's Strategy...
What do you think?
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gogzy
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TonyE wrote:
NSXforever wrote:
Will there be a wagon ILX if the TSX wagon is dropped?
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What with Acura misMarketing's Strategy...
What do you think?
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i don't think so.. will they have Civic wagon?
as for marketing at Acura? they will find a way, oh well, not the first time, and wont be the last time.
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gofast182
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Jeff wrote:
TheGandalf wrote:
understand the reasons to drop the TSX and they could have been valid with the arrival of the ILX. The problem is that th ILX is way to expensive for the features it offers (maybe the future - and hopefully new future - adoption of ED engines, this might be ok) so it is turning to be somewhat of a disapointment.
If the ILX was correctly priced based on what it offers, the gap between this car and the TL (soon to be TLX) would be too big (unless they drop the prices with the TLX, which I doubt they'll do).
If the ILX had a better powertrain to justify it current pricing it would make all this a sounder strategy.
So, to me, the big issue is not so much that the TSX is going to be chopped, the issue is that the ILX strategy was botched and it does not cover the gap that the TSX will leave...
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the problems are several fold. First off, the TSX is likely being sold at a loss to HMC. The TSX probably would not sell well at all at the price point where it NEEDS to be for Honda to make a profit on it. At its current transaction point, it's a great value - it's an extremely well made automobile, and it makes the ILX look too expensive for what you get.
The ILX is probably priced at a "fair" point as far as cost goes, but with the more luxurious and better engineered TSX currently selling at very close price point, the ILX's pricing makes it a tough sale at the moment.
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Right on. After many years on trying to get my "big 3" parents into a Honda product the TSX was such an overwhelming value on all fronts that they pulled the trigger and love the car. In selling them on the car I inadvertently sold myself on the TSX and got one of my own!
One of the ways their salesman sold them on the absolute build quality of the TSX was to put them in the *more expensive* TL in the showroom (the drivers window was down). He told them to close the door, it made a nice "thunk" with the window glass settling itself in the door, which most people are accustomed to and don't think anything of. Then he had them do the same thing with the *less expensive* TSX, "thunk"...and nothing else. He used this to demonstrate just how well the TSX is put together. I eventually met their salesman and he told me he LOVES selling the TSX because the feature content and the benefit of being designed for Europe and built in Japan make it their most solid offering, literally and figuratively.
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A77
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All this TSX/Fit sold at a loss talk is questionable. It all depends on how you measure loss. Sure they probably aren't as profitable as other vehicles, but how can Mazda continue to sell bargain basement 3s and others at the price they do and not immediately go out of business. If they are making a loss on every vehicle then the more they sell the more they lose. Which is not the case.
The truth is that TSXs and Fits just arent profitable enough anymore. So it makes sense to build them elsewhere (Fit). Or morph them into something cheaper (ILX).
Chinese made Fits in Canada have the same price as last years japanese ones. If all we are looking at is exchange rate and local production cost these must be hugely profitable. Politics is dictating why Chinese made Fits arent being sold in the States (unless there isnt sufficient capacity). Better to continue the marque with little profit until Mexico comes on stream than to get a load of bad press by importing Chinese cars.
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xBeastx
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gogzy wrote:
TonyE wrote:
NSXforever wrote:
Will there be a wagon ILX if the TSX wagon is dropped?
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What with Acura misMarketing's Strategy...
What do you think?
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i don't think so.. will they have Civic wagon?
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If the TSX goes along with its wagon, Honda will need another one. Perhaps a TL wagon, or maybe an Accord wagon (I think the Accord version would sell much better, plus they can make it cheaper than an Acura).
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THX17201
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xAbSoLuTexZeRo wrote:
gogzy wrote:
TonyE wrote:
NSXforever wrote:
Will there be a wagon ILX if the TSX wagon is dropped?
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What with Acura misMarketing's Strategy...
What do you think?
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i don't think so.. will they have Civic wagon?
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If the TSX goes along with its wagon, Honda will need another one. Perhaps a TL wagon, or maybe an Accord wagon (I think the Accord version would sell much better, plus they can make it cheaper than an Acura).
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I think the chances of any of those happening are slim to none, and slim just left the building... The TSX wagon was more likely a one-time bone thrown to the USA.
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