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WongKN
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I attended the Honda City MMC launch for Malaysia just two days ago (Thursday) and an incident happened which really made me question how accurate Honda's view of the marketplace is.
I was talking to the GM/CEO about the new 9G Civic as it is due to be launched here soon. One of his PR guys was with him. Throughout the conversation, they mentioned again and again how excited they are about the new Civic and kept emphasizing that it has been superbly successful and well received in the U.S. "It is the best seller in U.S", they kept telling me. When I brought up some of the less positive things, like how there were some comments about the interior quality and also about a few negative reviews of the car, they reacted as if they were totally unaware of them. In fact I also mentioned that AHM is going to launch an early MMC for the Civic, specifically to address some of the negative comments on the car, they seemed to be totally surprised/shocked. They claim they are totally unaware of this eventhough I told them it is more or less officially announced by AHM.
Later when I had another chat, this time with the COO, it was similar. He too was very confident about the new Civic and again kept emphasizing that it is a 'best seller in the US'.
So, really, what is really happening here ? I do know sales of the Civic has improved tremendously over the last couple of months or so, and if not mistaken that it is now the market segment leader. But surely one cannot just take this one single positive and ignore all the other things that has happened. Or is it really true that the only measure of model success is its sales and everything is no longer important.
Comments ?
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owequitit
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WongKN wrote:
I attended the Honda City MMC launch for Malaysia just two days ago (Thursday) and an incident happened which really made me question how accurate Honda's view of the marketplace is.
I was talking to the GM/CEO about the new 9G Civic as it is due to be launched here soon. One of his PR guys was with him. Throughout the conversation, they mentioned again and again how excited they are about the new Civic and kept emphasizing that it has been superbly successful and well received in the U.S. "It is the best seller in U.S", they kept telling me. When I brought up some of the less positive things, like how there were some comments about the interior quality and also about a few negative reviews of the car, they reacted as if they were totally unaware of them. In fact I also mentioned that AHM is going to launch an early MMC for the Civic, specifically to address some of the negative comments on the car, they seemed to be totally surprised/shocked. They claim they are totally unaware of this eventhough I told them it is more or less officially announced by AHM.
Later when I had another chat, this time with the COO, it was similar. He too was very confident about the new Civic and again kept emphasizing that it is a 'best seller in the US'.
So, really, what is really happening here ? I do know sales of the Civic has improved tremendously over the last couple of months or so, and if not mistaken that it is now the market segment leader. But surely one cannot just take this one single positive and ignore all the other things that has happened. Or is it really true that the only measure of model success is its sales and everything is no longer important.
Comments ?
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I think it is more an issue of one division not talking to another. It is unlikely they know much about the Civic in the states, other than its sales status. They may also not realize how the rest of the world seems to be getting the nicer version of the interior, while we got a severely cheapened one.
I don't know that it would be a management disconnect as much as it would just be a lack of communication from one end to the other. It is also possible it was communicated, but they didn't really pay much attention because it didn't affect them directly.
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Potenza
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Well, we know that some of the ASEAN markets have different exterior styling details, so in part they address those concerns.
I also think of the UK scenario with the ZE2 Insight wherein they got suspension and other such updates that the N.A. Insight did not seem to get. So every market seems to have its own standards and upgrades.
Perhaps the Civic earmarked for the Malaysian market will be introduced already with the upgrades headed for the N.A. market. It seems your 9G Civic and our updated 9G Civic are both due "soon." They may be the same.
I also don't find it odd that the heads of specific branches are unaware of all the specifics of foreign models. When one cannot access 100% of the information, I think internal sales numbers would outrank U.S. Consumer Reports magazine opinions on the list of available information.
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WongKN
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What specifically made me concerned is the fact that they claim ignorance to any of the negatives said of the 9G Civic and continued brandishing the fact that 'it is a best seller in the US' as if that makes everything OK. With the Insight for e.g., the product planner specifically mentioned issues with rear headroom and then the fact that the versions sold here has 20mm more headroom due to thinner roof material. Also issues about some US owners complaining they can't get the rated mileage. As well as the interior quality (which they said they are getting the version with 'premium interior'). So it was two totally different approach. One, the Insight, its weaknesses were acknowledged and where available, the counter taken to address the weakness. With this 9G Civic, it was all positive 'it is a best seller' and everything else is OK. For those curious, the people involved are different, as in different GM, with the Insight it was the product planner and head of marketing but this time, it was a different person from PR.
Anyway, it is an incident I thought is curious enough for me to raise for a discussion.
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owequitit
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WongKN wrote:
I attended the Honda City MMC launch for Malaysia just two days ago (Thursday) and an incident happened which really made me question how accurate Honda's view of the marketplace is.
I was talking to the GM/CEO about the new 9G Civic as it is due to be launched here soon. One of his PR guys was with him. Throughout the conversation, they mentioned again and again how excited they are about the new Civic and kept emphasizing that it has been superbly successful and well received in the U.S. "It is the best seller in U.S", they kept telling me. When I brought up some of the less positive things, like how there were some comments about the interior quality and also about a few negative reviews of the car, they reacted as if they were totally unaware of them. In fact I also mentioned that AHM is going to launch an early MMC for the Civic, specifically to address some of the negative comments on the car, they seemed to be totally surprised/shocked. They claim they are totally unaware of this eventhough I told them it is more or less officially announced by AHM.
Later when I had another chat, this time with the COO, it was similar. He too was very confident about the new Civic and again kept emphasizing that it is a 'best seller in the US'.
So, really, what is really happening here ? I do know sales of the Civic has improved tremendously over the last couple of months or so, and if not mistaken that it is now the market segment leader. But surely one cannot just take this one single positive and ignore all the other things that has happened. Or is it really true that the only measure of model success is its sales and everything is no longer important.
Comments ?
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I think it is more an issue of one division not talking to another. It is unlikely they know much about the Civic in the states, other than its sales status. They may also not realize how the rest of the world seems to be getting the nicer version of the interior, while we got a severely cheapened one.
I don't know that it would be a management disconnect as much as it would just be a lack of communication from one end to the other. It is also possible it was communicated, but they didn't really pay much attention because it didn't affect them directly.
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FiSH-Chan
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I reeeaaaaally doubt they are really that disconnected from the world especially since the news of the consumer reports made local news (at least where I am) and all over Yahoo news some time ago. Now I personally think that is really quite overblown and that got everyone from press media and Honda's competitors jumping on it, but of course, I'm not saying this is something Honda shouldn't just ignore.... so I am going to guess that they are just 'acting' and trying to push the fact that it is a hot seller to get away from the issue.. and since you are talking to the PR and executive people anyway and not the engineers themselvse.. well naturally.. most executive type people I know simply just don't talk about things they don't want to talk about..
I recently saw dash pics of the Thai Civic. I thought the US pictures seemed okay, but this:
is worrying, because that is the most awkward picture of the dashboard, ever!! And the choice of color!!
Compared to the original pictures which seems better to me..
Well anyway, since they are launchign it here soon I should be able to fully see it for myself!
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CB77
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WongKN,
I would say that FiSH-Chan got it right. It has been my experience within Honda, that when talking to Japanese upper management, and I tried to bring up a problem with a model or a policy of Honda, that I would get stonewalled on the whole subject. I believe that is what was happening to you.
I suppose they see no percentage in talking to me (a lower level employee) or you ("only" a customer) about something that they well-know is a negative for Honda. But I am sure they talk about it freely and often with their peers within the company.
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CVCC1974
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
I reeeaaaaally doubt they are really that disconnected from the world especially since the news of the consumer reports made local news (at least where I am) and all over Yahoo news some time ago. Now I personally think that is really quite overblown and that got everyone from press media and Honda's competitors jumping on it, but of course, I'm not saying this is something Honda shouldn't just ignore.... so I am going to guess that they are just 'acting' and trying to push the fact that it is a hot seller to get away from the issue.. and since you are talking to the PR and executive people anyway and not the engineers themselvse.. well naturally.. most executive type people I know simply just don't talk about things they don't want to talk about..
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I agree. I don't think they are unaware or they don't know. They just expect (and hope) prospective customers in their respective market don't know & don't care about the ongoing issues, because they are trying to sell the SAME car. I see their answers more as a 'diplomacy' and we can't blame them.
I tend to see the R&D 'disconnection' when the Euro 5-door Civic and the rest-of-the-world Civic sedan were developed together separately. I've read reviews mentioning the 9th gen Euro being better than their 8th gen Euro for handling & riding quality, and the 9th gen sedan being worse than its 8th gen - not only in North America, but also for other markets. We don't know if this ASEAN market Civic sedan has got the improvements on the handling dept. than the ones already on the road earlier (USA, Canada, South Africa, Australia, etc.).
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chinofer
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
...
I recently saw dash pics of the Thai Civic. I thought the US pictures seemed okay, but this:
...
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Wait a minute; so Thai Civic has pushbutton start and 3D turn by turn nav? That would have quenched some of the criticisms here in the US.
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rev2damoon
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WongKN wrote:
I attended the Honda City MMC launch for Malaysia just two days ago (Thursday) and an incident happened which really made me question how accurate Honda's view of the marketplace is.
I was talking to the GM/CEO about the new 9G Civic as it is due to be launched here soon. One of his PR guys was with him. Throughout the conversation, they mentioned again and again how excited they are about the new Civic and kept emphasizing that it has been superbly successful and well received in the U.S. "It is the best seller in U.S", they kept telling me. When I brought up some of the less positive things, like how there were some comments about the interior quality and also about a few negative reviews of the car, they reacted as if they were totally unaware of them. In fact I also mentioned that AHM is going to launch an early MMC for the Civic, specifically to address some of the negative comments on the car, they seemed to be totally surprised/shocked. They claim they are totally unaware of this eventhough I told them it is more or less officially announced by AHM.
Later when I had another chat, this time with the COO, it was similar. He too was very confident about the new Civic and again kept emphasizing that it is a 'best seller in the US'.
So, really, what is really happening here ? I do know sales of the Civic has improved tremendously over the last couple of months or so, and if not mistaken that it is now the market segment leader. But surely one cannot just take this one single positive and ignore all the other things that has happened. Or is it really true that the only measure of model success is its sales and everything is no longer important.
Comments ?
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I tend to think it is the bolded above, Wong. It really upsets me to see Honda heading down this path of "Toyota-ism", where models are just good enough to pull the wool over the eyes of the masses/mainstream. Cheapen per the beancounters and sell, sell, sell. That is what I see. Meanwhile some of the important values that made Honda what they were in the past are lost.
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Grace141
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Considering management structure, a local manager can't allow him or herself to become too focused on whatever is "over the fence" but must rely on information through the proper channels. A leadership structure works when everyone believes in and trusts the structure and carries out their personal tasks. And the coporate folks should really be asking what they would expect a local manager to do with information from another market. How does the fact that reviews of the Civic in the US have mentioned cheap feeling and appearing interior materials affect the ability to sell the car, which might not be exactly the same car, in Malaysia, in other words.
Turning the tables, what would American Honda's managers do if they should learn the Fit comes up short in some measure, MPG as an example, in the Asian market?
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cforez
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Why would an Honda exec in charge of Malaysia care about what's going on in America beyond sales numbers? It's not like he has any power to change anything in the USDM, and he probably has enough to worry about doing his own job. Besides, their car probably doesn't have the cost cutting the US Civic has because other markets have shown that they will pay for premium features in a small car.
Mountain out of a molehill IMHO...
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cforez
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Heh, had my post up on my phone so long, I got pipped by Grace141- and stated it better than me too.
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CivicB18
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I don't like people in management who think top sales equates to a great product as the current Civic is not up to the usual Honda standard and AHM has finally admitted that. Start out with a great product and it sells itself.
~Patrick
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Waldo
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@WongKN: I have dealt with sales oriented types all my life, and there is one common thread: they NEVER are willing to talk about anything negative about their product. If you do talk about anything negative, you are ostracized for your attitude problem. It apparently is no different in your part of the world as here. Salesmen will be salesmen.
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FiSH-Chan
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chinofer wrote:
Wait a minute; so Thai Civic has pushbutton start and 3D turn by turn nav? That would have quenched some of the criticisms here in the US. |
OK I am blind haha. But I was talking about the PR pictures anyway not the car..
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FiSH-Chan
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cforez wrote:
Why would an Honda exec in charge of Malaysia care about what's going on in America beyond sales numbers? |
Because the influence is big. People here still read magazines and news written for the US. Like yahoo news example and all those news in even our local papers about why the Civic is not recommended by CR even though NOBPODY knows what CR is. The news is that Civic is no longer recommnded by some publication somewhere, that is it, write it in and publish!
If everyone thinks the Honda Civic is one lousy car in Malaysia and the US does not think so, no one outside of Malaysia is going to know about it anyway. Like the 6gen Accord one time (sales flop, I only see one in my town)....
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cforez
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
cforez wrote:
Why would an Honda exec in charge of Malaysia care about what's going on in America beyond sales numbers? |
Because the influence is big. People here still read magazines and news written for the US. Like yahoo news example and all those news in even our local papers about why the Civic is not recommended by CR even though NOBPODY knows what CR is. The news is that Civic is no longer recommnded by some publication somewhere, that is it, write it in and publish!
If everyone thinks the Honda Civic is one lousy car in Malaysia and the US does not think so, no one outside of Malaysia is going to know about it anyway. Like the 6gen Accord one time (sales flop, I only see one in my town)....
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CR's review didn't have much of an effect on Civic sales in the USA, so I bet the review will even have less of an effect in Malaysia.
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FiSH-Chan
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cforez wrote:
CR's review didn't have much of an effect on Civic sales in the USA, so I bet the review will even have less of an effect in Malaysia. |
Yeah, but that does not mean the exucutive should really not care about what is going on in USA, or the issue with the material quality or peception.
BTW, like pretty much eslewhere, Hyundai and Kia are really pulling a lot of customers over with their 'fuel efficient' and 'cool styling' and also because all those favorable publishing about them. So whether they should know about how this Honda is perceived thing and how it is related to the 2012 Civic...
i mean they SHOULD know what the competition is doing and what people are talking about, I don't listen to radio much and Kia advertise ALWAYS the very few times I listen to the radio and I hear that... so if they really don't know, then Honda is screwed to have people like them
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cforez
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
cforez wrote:
CR's review didn't have much of an effect on Civic sales in the USA, so I bet the review will even have less of an effect in Malaysia. |
Yeah, but that does not mean the exucutive should really not care about what is going on in USA, or the issue with the material quality or peception.
BTW, like pretty much eslewhere, Hyundai and Kia are really pulling a lot of customers over with their 'fuel efficient' and 'cool styling' and also because all those favorable publishing about them. So whether they should know about how this Honda is perceived thing and how it is related to the 2012 Civic...
i mean they SHOULD know what the competition is doing and what people are talking about, I don't listen to radio much and Kia advertise ALWAYS the very few times I listen to the radio and I hear that... so if they really don't know, then Honda is screwed to have people like them
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He probably knows about the CR review, but why should he have to say anything about it? Especially when CR's criticisms of the US Civic's interior quality probably doesn't really apply to the Malaysian version.
No matter what CR's said in its review, enough US buyers must believe that the Civic is acceptable if not superior, otherwise it wouldn't be leading the segment in sales. That doesn't mean Honda should sit on its laurels, and they're not, as the US Civic is still getting an early MMC despite already being number one.
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giltibo
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Re: The pictures.
Am I the only one to observe that the dashes, except mirrored, are the same, save the colors (Black instead of grey), the slightly different Navi system, auto climate control and pushbutton start added and VSA omitted?
I know the preparations for the 2013 are extensive (HCM is already hand-building some (Pre-prod will only start at the end of the summer). I hope it will be worth the wait. (As usual, Honda is keeping tight wraps on the finished product so I haven't seen or heard anything precise yet)
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FiSH-Chan
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giltibo wrote:
Re: The pictures.
Am I the only one to observe that the dashes, except mirrored, are the same, save the colors (Black instead of grey), the slightly different Navi system, auto climate control and pushbutton start added and VSA omitted?
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I think read somewhere they are saying A/C is more important than VSA for the Asian spec (who could blame them, no point VSA for bangkok traffic jams) but this was something like in 2009. But how did you spot VSA is ommitted. And as always except for mirror the dash is always the same except some minor change.
BTw that's the Thai spec photo. I assume it is the top spec, but still think they are the worse PR photo in my opinon not helping the crooked dash.
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giltibo
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The slot the VSA switch resides in is plugged...
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WongKN
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This has turned out to be a very good discussion.
Personally I have two main comments on this situation.
1. When the INSIGHT was launched here, I was specifically told of several changes to -our- unit as compared to specifically the USDM unit. Many/most of the changes relates to specific complaints US customers had against the Insight, e.g. lack of rear headroom (I was told of a 20mm increase in rear headroom for the MY units from thinner roof lining material), changed suspension - specifically thicker metal sheets where the absorbers are mounted to the chassis, and so forth. There were no -specific- admission that the changes were targetted at the complaints in the US about the Insight but it was an 'understood' thing. In the media drive event, we even talked specifically about how a number of US customers complained about not meeting the EPA rating and the R&D engineer openly talked about driving styles, and so forth. It was in this discussion that he raised the point that Honda's published fuel economy figures are obtained without the air-conditioning on. We even talked about the negative effects of the 16inch wheels that the MY units comes with, as compared to the more beneficial (in terms of fuel economy) 15" wheels.
2. While it is true that an MY office may not necessarily be bothered by what is happening in a US market, the main thing here is the 'selectiveness'. I.e. when one brandishes the fact that 'it is a best seller in the US' about freely, then by the same token, it is also important to acknowledge any issues the US market might have with the Civic. One cannot just selectively extract the fact 'US BEST SELLER !!' and then in the same breath, ignores the other fact that 'NOT RECOMMENDED BY CR !'. If any negative comments about the Civic is to be ignored because it is specific to the US, then by the same token, however well it sells in the US should also be ignored. In actual fact, a smart marketing person would have actually exploited the fact that the 9G Civic is a best seller but has received negative feedback in the US. Assuming the interior materials are better quality for the ASEAN unit, then the -smart- marketeer will quickly say "it is a best seller in the US, eventhough there were negative comments about the quality of the interior. NOW, -OUR- version has upgraded, higher quality interior. THIS IS WHY WE ARE VERY CONFIDENT IT WILL SELL WELL HERE TOO'.
Otherwise, I think everyone has raised very good points.
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FiSH-Chan
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giltibo wrote:
The slot the VSA switch resides in is plugged...
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Hmm, that picture is just a dark spot for me... so I brighten my monitor and see it, but the 3rd slot is blocked by the steering, so it is possible it' still there just blocked.
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FiSH-Chan
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WongKN wrote:
This has turned out to be a very good discussion.
Personally I have two main comments on this situation.
1. When the INSIGHT was launched here, I was specifically told of several changes to -our- unit as compared to specifically the USDM unit...... |
Btw, I have seen the MMC Insights. The styling difference is differernt bumpers, and there is a little silver/metallic trim below the rear windscreen. It is weird there is absolutely no news or promotion about this MMC, they simply just release it very quietly or maybe I missed it?
WongKN wrote:
2. While it is true that an MY office may not necessarily be bothered by what is happening in a US market, the main thing here is the 'selectiveness'. I.e. when one brandishes the fact that 'it is a best seller in the US' about freely, then by the same token, it is also important to acknowledge any issues the US market might have with the Civic.
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It is also possible they got so annoyed at enough people telling them that they simply shut it out and feign ignorance, and unfortunate that you are also bringing it up for genuine discussion but they automatically giving reaction they practice many many tims. If there is an R&D enginneer would they have been more ready to discuss it?
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WongKN
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Btw, I have seen the MMC Insights. The styling difference is differernt bumpers, and there is a little silver/metallic trim below the rear windscreen. It is weird there is absolutely no news or promotion about this MMC, they simply just release it very quietly or maybe I missed it?
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I guess I am partially to blame for this as they sent me a press release about the car but I just didn't get around to publishing it, even on 'Honda Fan'. I am afraid I find this happening more and more frequently. It is hard to keep the enthusiasm for TOVA when the stuff coming from Honda is not that much to shout about. The only bright spot was the CR-Z (if it can be called exciting, at least it was a very interesting car) and the Jazz (Fit) Hybrid.
But I have already put myself into the queue for the Insight MMC and will be getting the car a couple of months later for a full review. As usual, they have what they considered 'top tiered' media at the head of the queue, newspapers, and so forth and the 'second tier' media are usually kept at the tail of the queue.
Still, given that you do not see any proper news or promotion on this MMC, it do look like even those 'top tiered' media people are not doing their job, or at least they are not as widely read as Honda Malaysia thinks they are.
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FiSH-Chan
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WongKN wrote:
I guess I am partially to blame for this as they sent me a press release about the car but I just didn't get around to publishing it, even on 'Honda Fan'...... Still, given that you do not see any proper news or promotion on this MMC, it do look like even those 'top tiered' media people are not doing their job, or at least they are not as widely read as Honda Malaysia thinks they are. |
Don't blame yourself... Actually, even on Honda's own web site, there is ZERO mention that it is a Mid Model Change, unlike how they made the page for City, or any mentioned of improvement or any mention in Honda's newsletter, or even from the sales people at the place where I sent the car for servicing!
I only noticed the MMC when I saw 2 Insights next to each other and one looks different..
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DrWhiner
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WongKN wrote:
I attended the Honda City MMC launch for Malaysia just two days ago (Thursday) and an incident happened which really made me question how accurate Honda's view of the marketplace is.
I was talking to the GM/CEO about the new 9G Civic as it is due to be launched here soon. One of his PR guys was with him. Throughout the conversation, they mentioned again and again how excited they are about the new Civic and kept emphasizing that it has been superbly successful and well received in the U.S. "It is the best seller in U.S", they kept telling me. When I brought up some of the less positive things, like how there were some comments about the interior quality and also about a few negative reviews of the car, they reacted as if they were totally unaware of them.
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May be they need not be concerned after all.
I think there's a poster, outside NA, who had actually SAT inside one, not just looking at pic.
sadlerau wrote:
That's probably because they haven't got around to releasing the 9th Gen yet. Australia only got the 9th Gen last month, and I expect other Asia/Pacific nations will soon follow suit. I have now sat in the 9th Gen, and as it is sold in Australia, I think the interior is a step up in design and quality over the 8th Gen - don't know what "rubbish" materials they are giving you NA residents??
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FiSH-Chan
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DrWhiner wrote:
May be they need not be concerned after all.
I think there's a poster, outside NA, who had actually SAT inside one, not just looking at pic.
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Well that is good to hear, but I still have to wait before I can have a look for myself
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