[home][rumors and news][model release matrix][dealer network][desktop calendar][exhaust notes][tov forums][links][search][sponsors][garage][login]

Tire Rack Upgrade Garage
 Search for a Dealer:
 Canadian Flag US Flag
 Honda Acura
 ZIP  
New footage of the NSX testing on the Nordschleife
More.......................
2016 ILX and 2015 HR-V to debut at 2014 Los Angeles Auto Show
More.......................
New Acura and Honda Products Fuel Surge in September Automobile Sales
More.......................
2015 CR-V goes on sale tomorrow. Full details released.
More.......................
All-new Honda Civic Type R: unrivalled against the brand's iconic performance flagship models
More.......................
Honda reveals 2015 CR-V
More.......................
Honda adds Special Edition trim level to 2015 Civic Lineup
More.......................
Honda releases sales figures for August 2014
More.......................
TLX --> Re: Official TLX I4 0 - 60 test
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: New Civic Type R Promo
Join Discussion......
RLX --> Re: 2016 RLX MMC?
Join Discussion......
HR-V/Vezel --> Re: Brazil's HR-V unveiled with R18+CVT (likely same as NA)
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: Future of sports cars
Join Discussion......
Professional Motorsports --> Re: R&T Article on the Current State of F1
Join Discussion......
Accord CrossTour --> Re: its been a year...
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: SUV for Rough urban roads?
Join Discussion......
TLX --> Re: TLX V6 SH-AWD vs Volvo S60 T6
Join Discussion......
Professional Motorsports --> Re: F1 - 2014 United States Grand Prix
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: Is All New Legend an RLX?
Join Discussion......
Photoshops --> Re: ASCC based CLX with Acura Sport (Mystery Concept)
Join Discussion......
TLX --> Re: Look what just arrived!
Join Discussion......
RL / Legend --> Re: 2015 Honda Legend
Join Discussion......
TSX --> Re: Last day driving a TSX
Join Discussion......
TOV First Drive: 2015 Acura TLX
Read Article....................
Photo Gallery: 2015 Acura TLX 2.4 P-AWS
Read Article....................
Photo Gallery: 2015 Acura TLX 3.5L SH-AWD
Read Article....................
TOV Photo Gallery: 2015 Honda Fit
Read Article....................
PR Photo Gallery: 2015 Honda Fit
Read Article....................
TOV Dyno Test: 2014 Accord Hybrid
Read Article....................

[fancy] [flat] [simple]
TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.

Go to:

Viewing Threshold (What is this?)

Thread Page - 1 [2]
Author
  Post New Thread
Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 08:43
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyE wrote:

To be in top 1% you have to make almost $400K per year, not 300K. That's a big difference.


Be careful.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/20/news/economy/occupy_wall_street_income/index.htm

In 2009 the top 1% of income earners in the US were those earning $343,927 or more. Let's say a person is 40 years old, has worked in his/her career field since graduating from college at the age of 22 for a 4-year degree or 24 for a Master's, and has followed reasonable 401k investment advice from day one. The last year or so has been very good for people having moderately safe retirement investments meaning that 1% income value should/needs to go up over time. It comes down to what "income" is. Right now, there are a lot of Americans who should be asking who exactly the 1% are.

The other amazing number that was pushed by our news media a few months ago was something like the top 5% wealthiest Americans have more wealth than all other Americans combined. With over half of Americans deeply in debt today if you can cash out all of your investments, pay off your debts, and have a dollar left in your wallet you have more wealth than over half of everyone else in the US. That's astonishing and scary.

How "middle class" is defined today has never been more subjective. If anything, Honda has a wider range of products available for financially conservative Americans than the other manufacturers - Honda doesn't offer $50k Mustangs or options lists that can double the price of a car. How long Honda can afford to continue offering those products like the base Civic, Accord and Fit is a good question.

As for kids in college I have two. I feel your pain!
CR-V9
Profile for CR-V9
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 09:25
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I believe it's AGI #. I don't think 401k counts.
If kids with BAs, MAs with 401K counts then it'd be more than 1%. Not everyone can become a 1%. It's 1%.
OldManTSX2
Profile for OldManTSX2
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 09:33
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
WongKN wrote:
This is very true. I mean if Honda doesn't make anything for us, and other makers makes it, then we should just go ahead and get from that other makes. There is no shame and no justification needed. Being a Honda fanatic doesn't mean being blindly loyal. It is our money and we live with the car anyway. In any case, I know several Honda product planners who bought other cars. One guy is a Miata (MX-5 Roadster in some markets) fan and has a Miata as his daily drive. Another was just recently telling me how he went to the local VW dealer to take a look at the new Jetta. So what's the big deal in buying a non Honda ? Just don't look at it as any vendetta or do it just in spite. The chinese saying goes something like : "don't be an enemy to money, and don't be an enemy to yourself, just because you want to take it out on someone else". Buy a non Honda because we really want it and it satisfies our need and Honda doesn't have any that does. Even if Honda do have something, but a non Honda gives us a better fit, or a better deal, then I personally won't hesitate to get a non-Honda. For me, I just want to ensure I am honest with myself and that is all that is important. All IMHO anyway.


+1

I was hoping for the ILX 2.4 to be between $25K and $28K with Navi but that's not where things fell. It is time to move on and looks like I will. I test drove a WRX 2 weeks ago. I've spoken to long time friends who have had Subarus and WRXs and they're happy with theirs. A bit tough to switch after been a nothing but Acura/Honda person since '88 but the WRX is only car that I've seen to offer "fun to drive", AWD, car size that's comfortable to drive, price point that make sense and reliability (hopefully same luck as my friends)
98EX4cyl
Profile for 98EX4cyl
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 10:36
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
The answer, as a middle class father of 2 living in the suburbs who shops at BJs, Target, Home Depot, Lowe's, etc.

A CRV

Stop thinking of affordability solely in terms of initial cost. Your $30K new limit is ridiculous. All cars cost money after you purchase them as well. All cars depreciate, use gas and they all have to be insured.

From my personal experience and numerous reviews the CRV is a tremendous value and the mpg increase of the latest generation only makes it more affordable.

Our 05 CRV SE is quite comfortable for all when loaded up with a stroller in the trunk and car seats in the back, still offering up enough room for shopping or trips. The backseat has enough room for rear facing car seats. The engine has the right amount of grunt and provides decent mileage. Handling is great - for a SUV. Reliability is bulletproof even after 7 years. Maintenance is minimal, it even has a timing chain so you don't have to shell out for the timing belt at 100k.

That's my 2 cents
civicw
Profile for civicw
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 11:22
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
If you disregard the sliding doors, the Mazda5 is virtually identical in dimensions and drivability to the Honda Stream, which I have checked out in person while visiting Japan. My understanding is that it was designed to be a competitor to the Stream.

I found the 5 to be really fun to drive when I rented one a couple of times, not to mention its flexibility that seats 6 people in a pinch. For me, buying a 5 over the CR-V would be a no-brainer.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 13:41
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Inebriated Snake wrote:
shifter25 wrote:
Maybe it's time to switch allegiance. There's that Mazda CX-5 Sport crossover with a 2.0L motor, 6sp MT, and 35mpg. All for about $25k. Sounds like the perfect car for you.


I agree just leave. Don't settle for something you don't necessarily want just because its a Honda. Its your hard earned money and you should get exactly what you want and/or need for it. Honda needs to earn its money from you in every single purchase.

The CX-5, Jetta Sportwagon, Elantra touring, Mazda 5, Forte, Focus, Impreza, Mazda 3, Forester, and Outback are all 5doors with manual transmissions and decent price/features/mpg. And if your really craving that Honda of old feel, then just get an old Honda cause the current Honda will not make a similar one.

And maybe, just maybe Honda will build something in the future that brings you back. But until then why wait for them to make a car they may never happen. Enjoy whats offered elsewhere.




I don't think you understand... we get a huge discount on Hondas... there's no way I'm going to get a different brand.

Now, if my wife worked at Chrysler... I might definitely drive a different brand.

But I would NOT get a VeeDub or Hyundai... As I said, the only other automaker (other than Honda) that has really ever appealed to me (since I left the Scirocco and the Alfetta) is Mazda.

However, I'm afraid Mazda as a business is in a very, VERY bad place.

I do sort of like Subarus.. but only if I lived in the Puget Sound where everybody drives at a Sub Warp Speeds... you know, Hawaiian Time in the Cold Drizzle...

MasterOfDaDomain
Profile for MasterOfDaDomain
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 13:42
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Except for the design, Mazda 5 is a versatile and fun to drive (for its class) vehicle, with a manual transmission available.

With the new Kodo design language, hope the next 5 looks as good as the JDM Odyssey - which I think is the perfect vehicle for young families.
civicw
Profile for civicw
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 13:53
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I've often wondered if Mazda will go under, but am convinced that someone like Fiat/Chrysler will hookup with them, or the Japanese government will arrange a marriage with Subaru/Suzuki/Mitsubishi, maybe even Honda.

Based on that conviction, I would not hesitate to buy a Mazda5.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 13:59
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
MasterOfDaDomain wrote:
Except for the design, Mazda 5 is a versatile and fun to drive (for its class) vehicle, with a manual transmission available.

With the new Kodo design language, hope the next 5 looks as good as the JDM Odyssey - which I think is the perfect vehicle for young families.



Well. the one thing about the Mazda 5 is that the 3rd row seat is useless. I rented one in a business trip a while back and we were carrying stuff, so with the 3rd row folded down we had room for our stuff but then the second row was tight.

I think if they got rid of the 3rd row and just allowed the 2nd row to slid forward and backwards it'd be a terrific package. As it stands it's hobbled by that marketing crap of claiming seating for seven, when in reality only torsos fit in the back.

AHM MUST bring the Freed, Stream and JDM Odyssey to NA. There's a big hole in the line up because not everybody thinks a wagon should be an SUV/CUV.

For one thing, the steering in the CRV sucks when compared with road going wagons. Those big tires are bit conducive to steering feel. This is where getting rid of the Element SC was such a mistake. HMC finally got the Element just about right and then they cancelled.

Hmm.. did AHM hire marketing folks from GM - the Big Three? (*) Do you remember the Fiero? Just when they got it right (Fiero V6 VT) they went and cancelled it.


(*) Short answer.. yes.. the head of marketing at AHM came from Chrysler. OK, let's all say it now... one, two, three.. SHIT!
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 14:06
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
FiSH-Chan wrote:
Jovian8 wrote:
How about bringing the JDM Odyssey?


You know, I never liked wagon / suv / mpv form, but if I have the money and need to haul people and stuff, the JDM Odyssey Absolute is the one I would most like to get. It's just unlike anything on the roads.




Yes.

AHM has become too controlled by American Marketing: they are too much into trucks.

I want a road going one box design... a CAR.. not a TRUCK.

However, given the stupid CAFE laws... manufacturers tend to make their least fuel efficient cars as "trucks" because its' a loophole into how the CAFE of a manufacturer is calculated.

Crazy huh? Once again, the US Gov. in its bone headed way warps the market in unintended ways.

It'd be hard to classify the JDM Odyssey as a truck...
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 15:36
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyE wrote:
OK... so middle class families have houses.

Houses usually are in suburbia.

(If your house is out in the country, ignore this post. You NEED an F150).

Suburban homes need stuff from the Home Depot, Costco, etc....

Suburban families tend to have kids.

Kids have stuff.

Ergo, suburban families need vehicles that can carry stuff and people.

Used to be a Station Wagon. Then it become an SUV. Later the minivan.

Now, with ObamaGas pricing, we need Station Wagons.

But, Honda no longer makes anything like it for the middle class.

The Element is gone, besides it was a not a five seater (duh!).
The CRV is expensivo and not really that big. It also sucks gas.
The Fit is too small for a family. Fine for a young couple or a single that doesn't mind the buzzy ride but not good enough for a family's main car.
The Odyssey... cough! cough! Have you priced one lately? I did, talk about $39K. Besides it drinks Obama's nectar.
The TSX Wagon is wonderful but it's also very expensive.. I built one yesterday, with Navi and it ran $37K and the leather wrapped steering wheel was an option! WTF? $37K and I have to pay 400++ bucks for a lousy leather wrapped steering wheel?
RDX, MDX, Crosstour, ZDX? Fellah! We're no Rockfellers here.

So.. here's the deal. I realize that Shawn said that $30K is not a lot of money for a car (GULP!) nowadays. But, for me, well, that's simply way out of line.

I don't blink at a $200 restaurant bill if the wine was fine and the food was warm.. but $30K for a car... something that I'll leave outside at the mercy of birds looking for a place to poop, or nincompoops to whap their door into my fender... No way, Jose... $30k is way out of line.

So, what I want -actually looks like I suddenly need now- is a station wagon. A Civic won't cut it, a Fit is too small.

Five doors, five seats, split rear seat, fun to drive, $25K with an R20/MT5/Navi.. roof rack. A Civic wagon, really. Good mileage, fun to drive... you know.. a nice HONDA CAR.

What do I get from AHM? CUVs, Pseudo truck, Expensive rides, sedans, two door coupes.

The Fit... too cheap... besides only AT in the US.

Hell... the only cars that fit the bill are Mazdas and I'm not going to get one for obvious reasons.

Damn it.... what's the matter at AHM? Why don't they bring in small wagon and five door hatches to the US?

Maybe AHM should fire all its American Marketing new hires and bring back some JDM BSME graduate from Tokyo University who smokes like a truck driver, drinks straight whiskey and understands the beauty and financial solidity of a small five seater, five door car with a 2.0L motor and an MT transmission.



that tsx steering wheel is the "sport wheel" option - not sure why they have it because it looks just like the leather wrapped wheel that comes standard in the TSX. You don't have to pay extra for a leather wrapped wheel. Also, the "real world" price is much lower than $37k for the TSX wagon. I think even with the destination factored in the the total price for a TSX Sport Wagon with Technology is right at $35k, so I'm not sure how you came to $37k.
DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 16:01
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Tony, didn't you pay something like $32k+ for the CR-V?
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 16:32
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
DCR wrote:
Tony, didn't you pay something like $32k+ for the CR-V?



That was the MSRP... it was a leased car.

Jeff... the price on the TSX is what I came up with when I built it using AHM's on line tool. The extras I included were:

Roof rails
Leather Steering Wheel
Leather shifter
All weather floor mats
"trunk" liner

Those options pushed the MSRP to $37K.


OK

As it now stands, we've ordered a Civic EX Navi.

When the dust settles around the CRV, we have "built"...

(a) 2012 CRV EX-L AWD NAVI with floormats, tow package...

and

(b) 2012 TSX Wagon Tech minus the steering wheel / shifter upgrade.

On the assumption we'll need to order another car.

As it turns out the monthly cost of each is very close so it will likely come to how much the insurance will be. Only my wife and I will be driving the Civic and the CRV| TSX so we'll see.

Honestly, as much I like the TSX, I'm just not enthused by our options. I mean, I'm sure we'll love the TSX but we really didn't want to spend the money.

Anyhow, the company has shifted to one year leases so this puts us in a holding position. At least we can buy the Civic off lease next year for my mom who will really like something like that.

BTW... we did not order a Civic Si sedan because the insurance is simply too much money. Too many kids wreck them and then raise the cost for everyone, include "mature" folks like us.





DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-07-2012 16:23
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-07-2012 17:33
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
DrWhiner wrote:



How can people afford that? Six year loans?
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-07-2012 19:00
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyE wrote:
DCR wrote:
Tony, didn't you pay something like $32k+ for the CR-V?



That was the MSRP... it was a leased car.

Jeff... the price on the TSX is what I came up with when I built it using AHM's on line tool. The extras I included were:

Roof rails
Leather Steering Wheel
Leather shifter
All weather floor mats
"trunk" liner

Those options pushed the MSRP to $37K.


OK

As it now stands, we've ordered a Civic EX Navi.

When the dust settles around the CRV, we have "built"...

(a) 2012 CRV EX-L AWD NAVI with floormats, tow package...

and

(b) 2012 TSX Wagon Tech minus the steering wheel / shifter upgrade.

On the assumption we'll need to order another car.

As it turns out the monthly cost of each is very close so it will likely come to how much the insurance will be. Only my wife and I will be driving the Civic and the CRV| TSX so we'll see.

Honestly, as much I like the TSX, I'm just not enthused by our options. I mean, I'm sure we'll love the TSX but we really didn't want to spend the money.

Anyhow, the company has shifted to one year leases so this puts us in a holding position. At least we can buy the Civic off lease next year for my mom who will really like something like that.

BTW... we did not order a Civic Si sedan because the insurance is simply too much money. Too many kids wreck them and then raise the cost for everyone, include "mature" folks like us.








the TSX wagon comes with roof rails and a leather steering wheel. Crossbars for the rails are optional. Also, the standard shift knob is already leather so I'm not sure why you'd want to upgrade it. All the dealers around here throw in the mudflaps, wheel locks, and cargo mat for free. On top of that, you get the car for right at invoice. On top of that, I got the guy to throw in the all season mats. My friend got those AND window tinting thrown in for free. I should have asked for the tint too :(

So go price one at the dealer and see what they're going for there. I bet it's closer to $33-34k than $37k.
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-07-2012 19:43
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyE wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:



How can people afford that? Six year loans?



I'm sure some people are going for longer terms. But really, these days if you're not getting 0-2% interest rates on a car loan your credit sucks. So, if you put down $5k on a $30k car, even with TTL you're still only financing about $29k. Over 60 months that's about $490/month which isn't that bad. Shoot, when I bought my first Acura (Integra GS-R) back in 1994 I paid a 4.9% rate and financed about $15k over 4 years thanks to a trade-in of my Civic that netted me $6k. I think my payment was around $350-375/month. Paying $450-$500/month nearly 20 years later doesn't seem to0 bad when you take inflation into account (not that inflation is good, just that you have to consider it when making the comparison).

It would be a lot nicer if Cali did like some other states where you only pay sales tax on the price of the new car minus your trade (would probably save about $1000 per transaction), but that's only going to drop your payment $10-$20/month.

SC
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-07-2012 21:09
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
CRV got officially totalled today. Shit... it was such a nice car.

So now we need two cars... so I actually checked on line with a dealer. Honestly... 500 bucks a month lease for a Civic? Even with 1.5%, based on invoice, 60 months, it comes to almost 400 bucks a month to buy... no money down as usual.

BUT...sorry... man.. I think I'll do a long term rental or even walk to work. We got the Civic ordered.. hopefully they'll honor it now. The new leases are soooo low that we'll pay a big chunk of taxes on "imputed income".

Can't afford it to go the dealer... don't want to throw away my wife's benefit I guess.

Hopefully we'll now the details by the end of the week, but I really want to just hitch onto two one year leases (hopefully this won't give my wife a bad eye....) and then move onto something else next year when the EDs are on board.

Now, I'm not a cheapskate... I got my priorities differently right when my kids are sucking money to go Highahr Edookahyson...

Hey, last week I got a used pair of Quad 9L Actives and a Nuforce HDP... paid about 45% on the dollar. That's a good buy for stuff that will be coddled in my house... but for something that will be at the mercy of others and birds and kids.... I'm just down to the basics... well, not too basic.. I got standards.. no Nissans! ( My wife is driving one of those rentals.. POS...).

BTW- there are no Rent A Wrecks in Orange County. I figured a 74 LTD with a couple of dents and missing hub caps would be the perfect car to park out on the street, I can imagine that my neighbor (aka The Witch Of The West).... it would have freaked her out.... ;-D

The other neighbors would love it... Most of them are cool about these things and have a sense of humor.





notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-07-2012 22:18
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Have you looked at the deals on Honda's website Tony?

Accord LX Sedan for $250/month - nothing down
Civic LX Sedan for $220/month - nothing down
CRV LX 2WD for $320/month - nothing down

All these are 36 month leases.

Yes, they might not be the upper trim models you want, but you could probably negotiate and upgrade for not too much more money.

You could also lease some much nicer cars. Infiniti has a 39 month lease deal on G37s - $409/month with nothing down or $329/month with $3000 down. Acura is offering a 36 month lease on the base TL for $420/month with nothing down or $349 with with $2700 down.

You could even get the last of the 2012 RDXs for $349/month lease.

There are some smoking deals out there right now.

SC
Inebriated Snake
Profile for Inebriated Snake
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-07-2012 23:16
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyE wrote:
CRV got officially totalled today. Shit... it was such a nice car.

So now we need two cars... so I actually checked on line with a dealer. Honestly... 500 bucks a month lease for a Civic? Even with 1.5%, based on invoice, 60 months, it comes to almost 400 bucks a month to buy... no money down as usual.

BUT...sorry... man.. I think I'll do a long term rental or even walk to work. We got the Civic ordered.. hopefully they'll honor it now. The new leases are soooo low that we'll pay a big chunk of taxes on "imputed income".

Can't afford it to go the dealer... don't want to throw away my wife's benefit I guess.

Hopefully we'll now the details by the end of the week, but I really want to just hitch onto two one year leases (hopefully this won't give my wife a bad eye....) and then move onto something else next year when the EDs are on board.

Now, I'm not a cheapskate... I got my priorities differently right when my kids are sucking money to go Highahr Edookahyson...

Hey, last week I got a used pair of Quad 9L Actives and a Nuforce HDP... paid about 45% on the dollar. That's a good buy for stuff that will be coddled in my house... but for something that will be at the mercy of others and birds and kids.... I'm just down to the basics... well, not too basic.. I got standards.. no Nissans! ( My wife is driving one of those rentals.. POS...).

BTW- there are no Rent A Wrecks in Orange County. I figured a 74 LTD with a couple of dents and missing hub caps would be the perfect car to park out on the street, I can imagine that my neighbor (aka The Witch Of The West).... it would have freaked her out.... ;-D

The other neighbors would love it... Most of them are cool about these things and have a sense of humor.









If your honestly considering a beater, pedal bike, public trans, or used motor bike/scooter; kudos to you. Reduce, reuse, recycle, usually works out quite well financially, socially and mentally in the long term in everyday usage. Even if its not up to snuff for the Jones; not that they matter anyways since you seem strong willed and grounded.

One very small example that I do is use a french press to make my coffee. There's no daily trash other than grinds, nothing to repeatedly buy such as filters or k-cups, just the coffee itself, no chemical leech cause its just glass and stainless steel, how the water is boiled is at my own discretion and all parts are easily replace and/or repaired by me. And I think it tastes good too.

Plus getting a "new" oldie or a bike should take off some of that pressure to need a new car. Often people rationalize in our heads that "I can afford it", instead of thinking "should I afford it". That cache of cash drained over the next 2 years could be better applied to other areas of your life.
tgo63
Profile for tgo63
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-08-2012 00:03
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I do believe the answer is used, possibly certified Honda. When I look for a car these are my criteria’s:
1. Manual transmission (fun to drive, usually cheaper to buy, better MPG)
2. High volume (widely available and inexpensive parts)
3. Decent MPG
4. preferably Honda; in the past I owned used Pontiac phoenix, new 90 cavalier station wagon v6 - poor ownership experience, new 95 civic lx standard - good had to sell it due to move, used 90(?)grand am quad 4 short time, 92 aerostar, bought to pull trailer when moving to states it was quite reliable, 98 ford escort standard base, 03 Mazda mpv slightly used sold it at 140k miles, and now we own 00 accord lx (bought new) standard 270k miles, 07 accord lx standard 78k miles and 07 Saab 9-3 85k miles.
My last new vehicle was 00 accord lx bought new for $17,000 plus tax. Escort was around $11,000 with tax! Current 07 Honda accord bought certified with 34k miles $14,000 out the door, Saab bought used in good condition also with 34k miles for $15 out the door. I do not think I will buy new car again - slightly used is a better way to go. I put lots of miles on my vehicles; I have two boys in college and freshmen daughter in high school who is a year round swimmer and cello player (private lessons once a week) so even with about $170k combined income I look at $30k vehicle as very expensive. I do like station wagons and will consider used Jetta sport wagon as eventual replacement for Saab
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-08-2012 00:14
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
notyper wrote:
Have you looked at the deals on Honda's website Tony?

Accord LX Sedan for $250/month - nothing down
Civic LX Sedan for $220/month - nothing down
CRV LX 2WD for $320/month - nothing down

All these are 36 month leases.

Yes, they might not be the upper trim models you want, but you could probably negotiate and upgrade for not too much more money.

You could also lease some much nicer cars. Infiniti has a 39 month lease deal on G37s - $409/month with nothing down or $329/month with $3000 down. Acura is offering a 36 month lease on the base TL for $420/month with nothing down or $349 with with $2700 down.

You could even get the last of the 2012 RDXs for $349/month lease.

There are some smoking deals out there right now.

SC



LX? Sorry, I do have some standards.. I don't want no LX...

The only smoking deals are in my humidor.. if you ever want to come on down beyond the Orange Wall I can break out some REAL SMOKING deals.... I got some 20 year old stoogies that will blow your mind... so smooth and tasty...

The issue with the leases and buys is that right now AHM is in a transitional stage. The EDs and new Accord are coming out... you should see the Employee Leases on the Accords.. they are giving them away.. EX-L NAVI of course.

BTW.. Infinity.. are they getting a severe case of the Uglies lately? I saw a G37 sedan on saturday and I did a double take... the hood, the fenders, they all bulging like The Thing... uglieeeeeeeeee! The previous G37 sedan was elegant, the one I saw was ugly... nevermind that ugly SUV they got with the loooong hood. I mean, WTH?

Anyhow, I don't want to be tied to more than a two year lease and I want to be able to do more than 15K miles a year.. just in case Jerry Brown decides to raid my bank...

No RDX....

Have you priced the insurance on any of those things.. BTW?

...

No, I'm going to see if we can still lease more cars from AHM and hold on for a bit...

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-08-2012 00:28
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Inebriated Snake wrote:



If your honestly considering a beater, pedal bike, public trans, or used motor bike/scooter; kudos to you. Reduce, reuse, recycle, usually works out quite well financially, socially and mentally in the long term in everyday usage. Even if its not up to snuff for the Jones; not that they matter anyways since you seem strong willed and grounded.

One very small example that I do is use a french press to make my coffee. There's no daily trash other than grinds, nothing to repeatedly buy such as filters or k-cups, just the coffee itself, no chemical leech cause its just glass and stainless steel, how the water is boiled is at my own discretion and all parts are easily replace and/or repaired by me. And I think it tastes good too.

Plus getting a "new" oldie or a bike should take off some of that pressure to need a new car. Often people rationalize in our heads that "I can afford it", instead of thinking "should I afford it". That cache of cash drained over the next 2 years could be better applied to other areas of your life.



I got two french presses and a "gold" filter in my drip coffee maker.

Old beaters, though, pollute a lot. A 72 LTD will pollute more in my 7 mile round trip commute as our 07 Civic Hybrid in a whole week of driving to Torrance (400 miles).

Yes... when I asked my wife if I could buy an used Audio Research (ARC) VT100 MkIII on Audiogon.com for 2400 bucks she noted that by not driving to San Diego daily I was saving 400 bucks a month in gas... and about 300 in cigars.... so that if I sold my old ARC D70 MkII for 650 bucks (sold one like that last year) then the over all cost (1750) would be covered in three months.

So now I'm saving... until another ARC amp comes by.. I'm just hoping my kids stop having wrecks and spend all my damn discretionary money so I can buy a nice, old, classic amp with nine 6550 tubes in it... ;-)
iutodd
Profile for iutodd
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-08-2012 01:25
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
The CR-V starts at $22,495.

The Odyssey starts at $28,375.

The Median Household Income (According to the US Census) from 2006-2010 is/was $51,914. I know stats can be construed a hundred different ways, but you have to start somewhere. $51K a year is about $4300 a month. Be smart with your money and you can easily afford either of those two cars. I won't do the math but it involves down payments and getting the best APR you can.

But let's say that you only make 75% of that number. Your combined household income is only $38,935. That's about $3200 a month. The Odyssey would be a little tight (you'd have to save up for a while probably), but the CR-V is definitely within reach.

Down to 50% of that Median number: $25,957 ($2100 a month.) OK, NOW those cars are probably out of reach. Is $26,000 a year "middle class"? It's probably close - I would say lower middle class (think first year teacher). But a Honda Fit isn't out of reach. Even if it's "too cheap" for you TonyE it would be an AWESOME family car for those with one or two kids.

As for needing a wagon for fuel economy reasons...umm...the Subaru Outback is rated at 22/29. The CR-V is rated at 22/30 (AWD). And the CR-V and Outback have almost identical sized cargo areas.

I guess I don't understand the point of this thread. If you want a Civic Wagon with an MT5 and an R20 that's all great and fine...but don't say that Honda has "abandoned the middle class family" just because they don't offer the exact car you want with the exact feature set you want.
WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-08-2012 01:39
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Tony,

I am much more luckier than you. Whenever I want to spend anything on hifi, car, etc, my wife simply says "if you have the money, then just buy, no need to get my permission". Of course the other thing is she expects that if she wants something real bad, then I am expected to buy for her as well. Luckily she is a prudent women so we never spend above our means. :)
JR
Profile for JR
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-10-2012 10:32
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Toyota Matrix ticks some of the boxes. But even though it is still in production, it seems to have been abandoned by Toyota.

I own a 2003. Not a great car in the way people usually mean it here, but extremely versatile and useful.
papapoly
Profile for papapoly
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-15-2012 22:09
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyE wrote:
OK... so middle class families have houses.

Houses usually are in suburbia.

(If your house is out in the country, ignore this post. You NEED an F150).

Suburban homes need stuff from the Home Depot, Costco, etc....

Suburban families tend to have kids.

Kids have stuff.

Ergo, suburban families need vehicles that can carry stuff and people.

Used to be a Station Wagon. Then it become an SUV. Later the minivan.

Now, with ObamaGas pricing, we need Station Wagons.

But, Honda no longer makes anything like it for the middle class.

The Element is gone, besides it was a not a five seater (duh!).
The CRV is expensivo and not really that big. It also sucks gas.
The Fit is too small for a family. Fine for a young couple or a single that doesn't mind the buzzy ride but not good enough for a family's main car.
The Odyssey... cough! cough! Have you priced one lately? I did, talk about $39K. Besides it drinks Obama's nectar.
The TSX Wagon is wonderful but it's also very expensive.. I built one yesterday, with Navi and it ran $37K and the leather wrapped steering wheel was an option! WTF? $37K and I have to pay 400++ bucks for a lousy leather wrapped steering wheel?
RDX, MDX, Crosstour, ZDX? Fellah! We're no Rockfellers here.

So.. here's the deal. I realize that Shawn said that $30K is not a lot of money for a car (GULP!) nowadays. But, for me, well, that's simply way out of line.

I don't blink at a $200 restaurant bill if the wine was fine and the food was warm.. but $30K for a car... something that I'll leave outside at the mercy of birds looking for a place to poop, or nincompoops to whap their door into my fender... No way, Jose... $30k is way out of line.

So, what I want -actually looks like I suddenly need now- is a station wagon. A Civic won't cut it, a Fit is too small.

Five doors, five seats, split rear seat, fun to drive, $25K with an R20/MT5/Navi.. roof rack. A Civic wagon, really. Good mileage, fun to drive... you know.. a nice HONDA CAR.

What do I get from AHM? CUVs, Pseudo truck, Expensive rides, sedans, two door coupes.

The Fit... too cheap... besides only AT in the US.

Hell... the only cars that fit the bill are Mazdas and I'm not going to get one for obvious reasons.

Damn it.... what's the matter at AHM? Why don't they bring in small wagon and five door hatches to the US?

Maybe AHM should fire all its American Marketing new hires and bring back some JDM BSME graduate from Tokyo University who smokes like a truck driver, drinks straight whiskey and understands the beauty and financial solidity of a small five seater, five door car with a 2.0L motor and an MT transmission.



So I guess the TSX Wagon is not too espensive anymore?
 
Thread Page - 1 [2]
Go to:
Contact TOV | Submit Your Article | Submit Your Link | Advertise | TOV Shop | Events | Our Sponsors | TOV Archives
Copyright © 2014 Velocitech Inc. All information contained herein remains the property of Velocitech Inc.
The Temple of VTEC is not affiliated with American Honda Motor Co., Inc. TOV Policies and Guidelines - Credits - Privacy Policy
mobile: 0