must weight less than 3000 lbs to meet performance goals
and the Concept has Porsche Racing kit brakes
and the best pictures to date of the Concept
Damn… it's just amazing that NSX Prime is still around... You would have thought that an enthusiast community of a car series that has seen a single iteration in more than 20 years would have dead, but it has not !
Still remember on the first days of the Internet and TOV I would regularly visit nsxprime to get one of their monthly wallpapers, still keep many of those "originals", mainly made as "best pic of the xxx month". Glad they finally got something serious to cheer in !!!
the post stated, the batteries are "extremely small" and add "nominal" weight
Want that statement from the Acura reps tells me is that to meet the performance goals the engine needs to be more powerful than most people were thinking because with a little battery you cant have three big electric motors.So probable max out at 100hp for electric motors with alot of low end torgue.I think the 425-450hp is want there looking for in the engine not the total hp! total hp 500-550 hp
RolledaNsx wrote: the post stated, the batteries are "extremely small" and add "nominal" weight
Want that statement from the Acura reps tells me is that to meet the performance goals the engine needs to be more powerful than most people were thinking because with a little battery you cant have three big electric motors.So probable max out at 100hp for electric motors with alot of low end torgue.I think the 425-450hp is want there looking for in the engine not the total hp! total hp 500-550 hp
Whatever the final outcome brings, that figure (425-450Hp) is the final total output of the system. Assuming the battery/motors are similar to those in the RLX and that figure is the real deal, you are looking at a gas engine producing about 360-380Hp, which could well be above the magic 100HP/L figure for a 3.5L V6.
(PS: While Honda has said nothing on displacement we know it's going to be a V6, and I don't see them going beyond 3.7L, would be surprised if they made it larger than 3.5L now that the RLX has been downsized)
Nick Graves wrote: Fantastically optimistic targets.
Exactly how light are the batteries?
I wouldn't get too excited about anything told to an auto show attendee during the public show days. The people the automakers hire as "product specialists" are usually not at all tied to the company. They are simply professional booth workers who are trained on a specific product info script.
When we were at the Detroit show, I happened to be in the Acura booth when they were training the staff that would be answering questions during the public days. They are given quite a bit of product info and are trained to demonstrate the key features but they're not going to know company secrets.
I don't think the V6 is going to be bigger than 3.7L more likely
a new 3.5L oversquare block. Also they take pride in having the most na HP PER LITER race ,not in total HP race. Right now it is around 125.5 hp per liter.
When we see the NSX in 2014 it's competition is going to be in the 600 HP TO 700 HP range. We know Honda is not going to get into the TOTAL HP game but in 2014 will 400-450 HP be enough to attract buyers unless they make it show light it can do 2.9 sec 0-60!!!!!!!
Nick Graves wrote: Fantastically optimistic targets.
Exactly how light are the batteries?
I wouldn't get too excited about anything told to an auto show attendee during the public show days. The people the automakers hire as "product specialists" are usually not at all tied to the company. They are simply professional booth workers who are trained on a specific product info script.
When we were at the Detroit show, I happened to be in the Acura booth when they were training the staff that would be answering questions during the public days. They are given quite a bit of product info and are trained to demonstrate the key features but they're not going to know company secrets.
RolledaNsx wrote: First the NSX is going to be Honda's HALO car.
I don't think the V6 is going to be bigger than 3.7L more likely
a new 3.5L oversquare block. Also they take pride in having the most na HP PER LITER race ,not in total HP race. Right now it is around 125.5 hp per liter.
When we see the NSX in 2014 it's competition is going to be in the 600 HP TO 700 HP range. We know Honda is not going to get into the TOTAL HP game but in 2014 will 400-450 HP be enough to attract buyers unless they make it show light it can do 2.9 sec 0-60!!!!!!!
I'm thinking that we'll see at least 100 hp/L from a 3.5L V6. That should be no problem for Honda. But I agree that Honda is gonna want to go after the current high water mark in specific output which is the Ferrari 458. If the NSX just matches that, it'll have 438 hp from the V6. Add 70 hp from the electric motors and you're over 500 hp, which would be quite a strong number.
Then the next challenge is just keeping the weight now. I'm thinking 3200 lbs is a safe-ish number. With SH-AWD that should make pretty quick around the racetrack.
RolledaNsx wrote: First the NSX is going to be Honda's HALO car.
I don't think the V6 is going to be bigger than 3.7L more likely
a new 3.5L oversquare block. Also they take pride in having the most na HP PER LITER race ,not in total HP race. Right now it is around 125.5 hp per liter.
When we see the NSX in 2014 it's competition is going to be in the 600 HP TO 700 HP range. We know Honda is not going to get into the TOTAL HP game but in 2014 will 400-450 HP be enough to attract buyers unless they make it show light it can do 2.9 sec 0-60!!!!!!!
I'm thinking that we'll see at least 100 hp/L from a 3.5L V6. That should be no problem for Honda. But I agree that Honda is gonna want to go after the current high water mark in specific output which is the Ferrari 458. If the NSX just matches that, it'll have 438 hp from the V6. Add 70 hp from the electric motors and you're over 500 hp, which would be quite a strong number.
Then the next challenge is just keeping the weight now. I'm thinking 3200 lbs is a safe-ish number. With SH-AWD that should make pretty quick around the racetrack.
The way I see it the highlight of the NSX is going to be the hybrid drivetrain, and the days of hunting specific power per liter are over for Honda. That doesn't mean the gas engine is not going to be nice, simply that power/L ain't a target anymore.
RolledaNsx wrote: First the NSX is going to be Honda's HALO car.
I don't think the V6 is going to be bigger than 3.7L more likely
a new 3.5L oversquare block. Also they take pride in having the most na HP PER LITER race ,not in total HP race. Right now it is around 125.5 hp per liter.
When we see the NSX in 2014 it's competition is going to be in the 600 HP TO 700 HP range. We know Honda is not going to get into the TOTAL HP game but in 2014 will 400-450 HP be enough to attract buyers unless they make it show light it can do 2.9 sec 0-60!!!!!!!
I'm thinking that we'll see at least 100 hp/L from a 3.5L V6. That should be no problem for Honda. But I agree that Honda is gonna want to go after the current high water mark in specific output which is the Ferrari 458. If the NSX just matches that, it'll have 438 hp from the V6. Add 70 hp from the electric motors and you're over 500 hp, which would be quite a strong number.
Then the next challenge is just keeping the weight now. I'm thinking 3200 lbs is a safe-ish number. With SH-AWD that should make pretty quick around the racetrack.
The way I see it the highlight of the NSX is going to be the hybrid drivetrain, and the days of hunting specific power per liter are over for Honda. That doesn't mean the gas engine is not going to be nice, simply that power/L ain't a target anymore.
Could well be true, depends on what the current climate is within the company. I could see them potentially compromising specific output so they can get that fuel economy number higher.
From a sales perspective, I don't know what would sell more cars. "This engine has the highest naturally aspirated specific output in the world." Or, "450 hp and it still gets 35 mpg." Either would be a very powerful statement if they could deliver a surprisingly low weight, like under 3000 lbs. I think that'd be a stretch though.
RolledaNsx wrote: First the NSX is going to be Honda's HALO car.
I don't think the V6 is going to be bigger than 3.7L more likely
a new 3.5L oversquare block. Also they take pride in having the most na HP PER LITER race ,not in total HP race. Right now it is around 125.5 hp per liter.
When we see the NSX in 2014 it's competition is going to be in the 600 HP TO 700 HP range. We know Honda is not going to get into the TOTAL HP game but in 2014 will 400-450 HP be enough to attract buyers unless they make it show light it can do 2.9 sec 0-60!!!!!!!
I'm thinking that we'll see at least 100 hp/L from a 3.5L V6. That should be no problem for Honda. But I agree that Honda is gonna want to go after the current high water mark in specific output which is the Ferrari 458. If the NSX just matches that, it'll have 438 hp from the V6. Add 70 hp from the electric motors and you're over 500 hp, which would be quite a strong number.
Then the next challenge is just keeping the weight now. I'm thinking 3200 lbs is a safe-ish number. With SH-AWD that should make pretty quick around the racetrack.
The way I see it the highlight of the NSX is going to be the hybrid drivetrain, and the days of hunting specific power per liter are over for Honda. That doesn't mean the gas engine is not going to be nice, simply that power/L ain't a target anymore.
Could well be true, depends on what the current climate is within the company. I could see them potentially compromising specific output so they can get that fuel economy number higher.
From a sales perspective, I don't know what would sell more cars. "This engine has the highest naturally aspirated specific output in the world." Or, "450 hp and it still gets 35 mpg." Either would be a very powerful statement if they could deliver a surprisingly low weight, like under 3000 lbs. I think that'd be a stretch though.
The thing is that, I may be proven wrong, but I still believe that high-revs and hybrids don't go well along together. Whatever specific output Honda seeks I'd bet they'll find it at the lowest possible revs. I would put my bet on a pretty round engine, not a peaky one.
We shall see !!!
(but this is still exciting, and one has to like watching the RLX with that much more luxury and bolder exterior yet announced "well bellow 4000lbs").
High revs and hybrids haven't been intended to work together to date but we have no clue as to how Honda plans to tune the NSX. On one hand Honda has the Insight and on the other it has its F1 KERS tech, which by the way might explain lighter weight, compact battery tech. If you read the specs for the KERS motor you would notice it looks like it would fit nicely into each side of an SH-AWD transaxle.
I've read nothing to suggest this but if Honda recognizes its new NSX as a performance halo car and is targeting Ferrari I would lean to the side of tuning similar to that of KERS. The NSX would get great MPG for a supercar but it might also make a TL look like a gas sipper. The hybrid parts would be used only as a torque booster. The real problem being Honda didn't get to test its KERS tech during an F1 season.
I apologize for adding more speculation here but you might as well dream big, I guess. The most advanced Honda tech I've read of in the past five years has been that KERS motor and it wouldn't surprise me if Honda hasn't yet nailed down when they might have it 100% reliable, perhaps being the reason for the "available in the next three years" time frame for release. More Kick-Out-The-Ladder project management?
If Honda decided ten years ago to go all in with hybrd tech and KERS was their path forward their traditional drivetrain development during that time would make a lot more sense. We'll all be driving Honda Hybrids at some point soon though. To be honest, the KERS motor is such a generational step forward in electrical motor tech (a motor the size of a Thermos bottle having the power of a small 4-cylinder gas engine) Honda must have been working on it before the F1 specs were released. If Honda says the NSX offers 350hp and has a boost button or sport mode for an additional 150hp I think we'll know for certain.
Just so we're on the same page, I'd give my NSX KERS speculation a 1 in 3 chance of being possible. It's more likely the new NSX will debut a highly revised IMA drivetrain.
Grace141 wrote: High revs and hybrids haven't been intended to work together to date but we have no clue as to how Honda plans to tune the NSX. On one hand Honda has the Insight and on the other it has its F1 KERS tech, which by the way might explain lighter weight, compact battery tech. If you read the specs for the KERS motor you would notice it looks like it would fit nicely into each side of an SH-AWD transaxle.
I've read nothing to suggest this but if Honda recognizes its new NSX as a performance halo car and is targeting Ferrari I would lean to the side of tuning similar to that of KERS. The NSX would get great MPG for a supercar but it might also make a TL look like a gas sipper. The hybrid parts would be used only as a torque booster. The real problem being Honda didn't get to test its KERS tech during an F1 season.
I apologize for adding more speculation here but you might as well dream big, I guess. The most advanced Honda tech I've read of in the past five years has been that KERS motor and it wouldn't surprise me if Honda hasn't yet nailed down when they might have it 100% reliable, perhaps being the reason for the "available in the next three years" time frame for release. More Kick-Out-The-Ladder project management?
If Honda decided ten years ago to go all in with hybrd tech and KERS was their path forward their traditional drivetrain development during that time would make a lot more sense. We'll all be driving Honda Hybrids at some point soon though. To be honest, the KERS motor is such a generational step forward in electrical motor tech (a motor the size of a Thermos bottle having the power of a small 4-cylinder gas engine) Honda must have been working on it before the F1 specs were released. If Honda says the NSX offers 350hp and has a boost button or sport mode for an additional 150hp I think we'll know for certain.
Personally, I sure hope Honda brings something completely different from KERS because the last thing a road-supercar needs is an extra boost to overtake anyone...(all of them are extremely over-powered).
What this car needs is to be able to get off-the-parking lot in pure silent electric mode while delivering outstanding performance when "lighting it up".
That is what the people that may buy it will be looking forward to, not for an electric turbo-boost on demand.
PS: And btw, we know already that both the RLX and NSX will be using pretty much similar hybrid parts, and the hybrid setup Jeff tested in JP ain't no KERS, nor does it pretend to be it.
Hybrids are KERS.
The only difference between F1 and the street hybrid is that F1 has rules governing its use. It's use is for only passing or blocking the other car trying to pass you or at the start with a manuel push of a button for about 6 seconds extra power.
There are two energy storage ways, a battery or a flywheel. In racing they like the flywheel better (don't have to cool the battery and less chance of fire or malfunction) but at higher energy levels the battery is better because the flywheel would be to big. In LMP1 and GT racing the flywheel is located where the passenger seat would be. That will not work for a street car.
Also the system in the RLX and NSX the F1 people would love to have!!!!! The corner speeds would be crazy!!!!!
How come all are talking about the hybrid part of it.
Obviously Carbon fiber (Honda jet) & racing turbos (HPD) are the big things Honda is really big on in the US.
Honda will surely bring in these people on developing the car in the US.
The turbo part makes the hp/liter discussion a bit useless, I didn't read anything confirming the V6 will not be charged, after all DI is a good stepping stone.
The turbo & Emotors could do nicely together.
Honda could introduce a new way of controlling these together, an advanced version of the selectable drive modes. Maybe even an electronic turbo system.
The crazy torque would ask for a special chassis.
If a battleship sized Aventador with carbon fibre hull comes along at 3500lbs, with a massive V12 and haldex 4wd - why not believe that Honda will showcase the application of their know how on making jets in the NSX.
BMW is working hard on making the small EV with CF, MB is too, so Honda should really show us something on chassis production.
The NSX has some heritage to deliver against. So they should be thinking about more than just the hybrid system, specially since the RLX has ticked most of that.
While a V6 turbo hybrid NSX is an interesting proposition, I think that would add too much weight, complexity and cost.
One really good thing about that idea though, is that the electric motors could give the car thrust while the turbos are spooling up to the boost threshold at low rpm. At higher rpms when the throttle has been closed and is then reopened, the electric motors could kick in again to less the effect of boost lag.
It would be an interesting concept if someone were to pull it off but I just don't think that'd be a good idea for this car. It would cause packaging and heat problems, increase the weight, and would increase the amount of development time (and money) you'd need to get everything to work in unison and be reliable. I already feel like the hybrid SH-AWD system is complex enough as it is.
RolledaNsx wrote: First the NSX is going to be Honda's HALO car.
I don't think the V6 is going to be bigger than 3.7L more likely
a new 3.5L oversquare block. Also they take pride in having the most na HP PER LITER race ,not in total HP race. Right now it is around 125.5 hp per liter.
When we see the NSX in 2014 it's competition is going to be in the 600 HP TO 700 HP range. We know Honda is not going to get into the TOTAL HP game but in 2014 will 400-450 HP be enough to attract buyers unless they make it show light it can do 2.9 sec 0-60!!!!!!!
I'm thinking that we'll see at least 100 hp/L from a 3.5L V6. That should be no problem for Honda. But I agree that Honda is gonna want to go after the current high water mark in specific output which is the Ferrari 458. If the NSX just matches that, it'll have 438 hp from the V6. Add 70 hp from the electric motors and you're over 500 hp, which would be quite a strong number.
Then the next challenge is just keeping the weight now. I'm thinking 3200 lbs is a safe-ish number. With SH-AWD that should make pretty quick around the racetrack.
The way I see it the highlight of the NSX is going to be the hybrid drivetrain, and the days of hunting specific power per liter are over for Honda. That doesn't mean the gas engine is not going to be nice, simply that power/L ain't a target anymore.
Could well be true, depends on what the current climate is within the company. I could see them potentially compromising specific output so they can get that fuel economy number higher.
From a sales perspective, I don't know what would sell more cars. "This engine has the highest naturally aspirated specific output in the world." Or, "450 hp and it still gets 35 mpg." Either would be a very powerful statement if they could deliver a surprisingly low weight, like under 3000 lbs. I think that'd be a stretch though.
High or good fuel economy will not sell any more NSX's, nobody in that market cares about fuel economy and if they compromised performance for fuel economy buyers will look elsewhere. Performance, style, and overall feel is what buyers want and what sells in the high performance sports car game. A Prius buyer is very different from a NSX, Porsche, GTR, or Ferrari buyer, Honda is kidding themselves if they think they are similar or they will or can become similar. Greenies don't buy sports cars. They may be able to brag the new NSX gets good fuel economy but if the performance is not there it will be a failure. The NSX was never about getting good fuel economy or being green, if they want to build a green sports car then do it but don't turn the NSX into something it never was nor what buyers want.
The hybrid powertrain should be for power and performance and showing off Honda's racing heritage and prowess with technology. Better fuel economy should be secondary and more or less a nice plus from using batteries. Nobody is going to complain that their NSX does not get good fuel economy if the performance is there. The heart of the NSX should be its ICE and that engine needs to be special and put out more then enough power to overcome a scenario when the batteries have been drained to still be competitive with other sports cars. The ICE needs to be making at the very minimum 350hp or 100hp per liter. Porsche gets 350 out of 3.4l and 400-500hp out of 3.8-4.0 liter 6 cylinders so it should not be hard for Acura to get at the very least 350hp out of of 3.5l DOHC V6.
This NSX will be more American this time, I don't see Americans being too concerned about fuel economy or how green it is, it is going to have to perform spectacularly to be successful in the American market and put out impressive hp numbers.
^ seriously. I'm sick of this hybrid BS, but then again this does come from a company that thinks a FWD $46k RLX is a good idea... Attack from the fanboys in 3..2..
lexusgs wrote: High or good fuel economy will not sell any more NSX's, nobody in that market cares about fuel economy and if they compromised performance for fuel economy buyers will look elsewhere. Performance, style, and overall feel is what buyers want and what sells in the high performance sports car game. A Prius buyer is very different from a NSX, Porsche, GTR, or Ferrari buyer, Honda is kidding themselves if they think they are similar or they will or can become similar. Greenies don't buy sports cars.
I think you're painting with a wildly broad brush. Sure, the true hardcore green consumer would never buy a sportscar. But there are plenty of people who would buy a product that is high performance but is also efficient. If that were not the case, Porsche would not have a large number of customers putting in preorders for the 918.
In the case of the NSX I wasn't talking about a car that would have 300 hp and 45 mpg. That would absolutely be a failure. I was talking about the difference between maybe 450 hp and 500 hp.
The original NSX was about being a well-developed package of attributes that someone could drive every day. At that time supercars were generally uncomfortable and unreliable but the NSX proved that this didn't need to be the case. Maybe the new NSX can again break new ground by being fast, usable, but also efficient.
Of course, to be perfectly honest I'd prefer a naturally aspirated NSX that was very light, maybe lighter than the NSX-R II. But alas that's not what we're gonna get. Either way I'm A LOT happier with the direction the NSX is going than the direction the ASCC was taking.
JMU R1 wrote: While a V6 turbo hybrid NSX is an interesting proposition, I think that would add too much weight, complexity and cost.
One really good thing about that idea though, is that the electric motors could give the car thrust while the turbos are spooling up to the boost threshold at low rpm. At higher rpms when the throttle has been closed and is then reopened, the electric motors could kick in again to less the effect of boost lag.
It would be an interesting concept if someone were to pull it off but I just don't think that'd be a good idea for this car. It would cause packaging and heat problems, increase the weight, and would increase the amount of development time (and money) you'd need to get everything to work in unison and be reliable. I already feel like the hybrid SH-AWD system is complex enough as it is.
If someone pulls it off?
There are already a few turbo diesel hybrids available, even VW/Audi are putting the 2.0T GTI engine with emotors in different cars, suvs...
Honda has enough resources in USA to turbo the V6, its probably the easiest part of the whole car.
There are already a few turbo diesel hybrids available, even VW/Audi are putting the 2.0T GTI engine with emotors in different cars, suvs...
Honda has enough resources in USA to turbo the V6, its probably the easiest part of the whole car.
Yeah but a forced-induction hybrid application in an econo car or suv is a very different propostion than a v6 turbo hybrid in a exotic performance car. If you keeping the weight and size of the car low is not a priority then fine. But given the size of the NSX and Honda's stated goal of keeping the car light, I just don't think the added weight of forced induction really makes sense. Even the Porsche 918 is naturally aspirated. And that's not even getting into the packaging compromises you'd have to make to accommodate the extra plumbing and intercooler you'd have to run.
But like I said, maybe someone will go that route but it's going to involve serious compromises. Maybe a big GT like the Nissan GT-R could swing a hybrid turbo set up since the car is already so big and heavy anyway. A sports sedan might be another good application.
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